Planet Rugby Forum

Red Chopper wrote:

spookly wrote:Sounds like your garage is telling porkies to avoid liability for cocking up the cambelt change. That excuse does not sound feasible at all. More likely that the cambelt was not correctly tensioned and it skipped a tooth. On an interference engine that will cause valves and pistons to collide, which isn't great.
Can't think it would have been anything else, as if they'd timed it incorrectly from the off it would have run rough as a dog or died on the spot. My bet would be that they didn't correctly tighten a tensioner, so it lasted a little while then let the belt slack.

This - the garage have fvcked up and are 100% liable. Get someone to look over the belt,there's no way a new belt would let go that easily unless they'd majorly ballsed up the fitting - I think, from memory, if that's the 1.9 diesel it should be replaced as a kit. ie water pump and tensioners. That engine is known for being bomb proof if serviced correctly, 250,000+ mileages are common. Belt recently went on the wife's Corsa at bang on 100,000 miles - the week before it was due to be replaced - and means that the car is essentially a right off. Meanwhile, just fitted a new cam belt kit to my £60, 20 year old Golf petrol that's just passed 180,000 miles - still going great. They don't make 'em like they used to.

Often the pump is replaced simply because it's the thing that sits on an eccentric housing and is moved to alleviate the belt tension without the need to remove wheels. However, they have often seized in my experience (heat + water) and either break or you risk them failing soon after if you re-assemble with the original.

spookly wrote:Sounds like your garage is telling porkies to avoid liability for cocking up the cambelt change. That excuse does not sound feasible at all. More likely that the cambelt was not correctly tensioned and it skipped a tooth. On an interference engine that will cause valves and pistons to collide, which isn't great.
Can't think it would have been anything else, as if they'd timed it incorrectly from the off it would have run rough as a dog or died on the spot. My bet would be that they didn't correctly tighten a tensioner, so it lasted a little while then let the belt slack.

Had this before garage changed the belt but the bearing was gone in the tensioner /roller

backrow wrote:slick

if money is currently tight, and you do actually need a car, can I suggest one of 2 options
1. enter the world of bangernomics, and get yourself a well looked after 15+ year old Petrol Honda Accord or Civic for a few hundred quid, that should last a couple of years at least
2. plenty of low / zero deposit / zero APR% deals out there on brand shiny new cars, monthly outlay will be from £150 ish (dunno what size car you need, just randomly saw a new corse from £170 per month with a grand deposit)

personal loan rates are still pretty low as well, should you wish to get a loan for a car. good luck anyways

Don't listen to Yeeb - no-one on the Bored has posted more "Help me buy a car, I'm clueless" threads in the last decade.

Sandstorm wrote:

backrow wrote:slick

if money is currently tight, and you do actually need a car, can I suggest one of 2 options
1. enter the world of bangernomics, and get yourself a well looked after 15+ year old Petrol Honda Accord or Civic for a few hundred quid, that should last a couple of years at least
2. plenty of low / zero deposit / zero APR% deals out there on brand shiny new cars, monthly outlay will be from £150 ish (dunno what size car you need, just randomly saw a new corse from £170 per month with a grand deposit)

personal loan rates are still pretty low as well, should you wish to get a loan for a car. good luck anyways

Don't listen to Yeeb - no-one on the Bored has posted more "Help me buy a car, I'm clueless" threads in the last decade.

don't be a prat - I asked for advice, that is all, didn't in fact need to buy a new car because of circumstance change.
changing a tyre, fair enough, I was spaz at - but buying new cars & running 17 y old Astra's nicely, I am a whizz at. Sounds to me that in slicks' current predicament, he could do much worse than bomb around in a 17 y o petrol astra worth peanuts for a bit.

Thanks again all.

I just went down to the garage and they showed me and tried to explain, this is what I got:

The bolt that holds the tensioner that goes into the cylinder head expired. The steel bolt that goes into the alloy has pulled the thread out at the alloy

The belt is fine.

I don't know what this means. I've left it that I will go back to them tomorrow about scrapping it or kicking up a fuss. From what I've seen on here I should be at least making a cursory attempt at a fuss.

EDIT: I called back to get more clarification and another mechanic said this:

the timing belt tensioner sits on a stud and the threads that go into the cylinder head have come apart. This has allowed the tensioner to move which has loosened the belt and and the timer has jumped.

Are those two things the same, does it make any sense?

Ted. wrote:

eugenefraxby wrote:Defective workmanship. Almost impossible to prove it was primary cause of the failure. My bloke has often said with certain cars ‘do NOT spend any more money on this car’. He recently said it about my girlfriends car a 58 Fiesta. Rust on chassis. Just running it now, might be 3 years might be 3 weeks no idea. I don’t agree with spending more on a vehicle than it’s probably worth...

If that's anything more than 'decorative' marring, don't wait for it to be failed, or worse still, failure.

As an aside, 180km is not a lot mileage on a modern diesel. Shouldn't be hard to prove. Slick, do you belong to AA or some such?

RAC - it was them that recovered it and the roadside guy reckoned the garage should be fixing it, but that was without really knowing what had happened.

slick wrote:Thanks again all.

I just went down to the garage and they showed me and tried to explain, this is what I got:

The bolt that holds the tensioner that goes into the cylinder head expired. The steel bolt that goes into the alloy has pulled the thread out at the alloy

The belt is fine.

I don't know what this means. I've left it that I will go back to them tomorrow about scrapping it or kicking up a fuss. From what I've seen on here I should be at least making a cursory attempt at a fuss.

EDIT: I called back to get more clarification and another mechanic said this:

the timing belt tensioner sits on a stud and the threads that go into the cylinder head have come apart. This has allowed the tensioner to move which has loosened the belt and and the timer has jumped.

Are those two things the same, does it make any sense?

When I had my belt changed on my Astra 3 months ago (10 years old) they changed the belt and tensioner at the same time. Vauxhall garage said it's a bad idea to run a new belt on the original tensioner. I guess your garage only changed the belt, otherwise they'd probably have noticed the stripped bolt & changed it. Challenge them on that.

slick wrote:Thanks again all.

I just went down to the garage and they showed me and tried to explain, this is what I got:

The bolt that holds the tensioner that goes into the cylinder head expired. The steel bolt that goes into the alloy has pulled the thread out at the alloy

The belt is fine.

I don't know what this means. I've left it that I will go back to them tomorrow about scrapping it or kicking up a fuss. From what I've seen on here I should be at least making a cursory attempt at a fuss.

EDIT: I called back to get more clarification and another mechanic said this:

the timing belt tensioner sits on a stud and the threads that go into the cylinder head have come apart. This has allowed the tensioner to move which has loosened the belt and and the timer has jumped.

Are those two things the same, does it make any sense?

The tensioner is what it says it is. A belt goes around it and the tensioner (usually hydraulic these days) keeps a belt tight. It's basically a wheel on a stick!

No tension = slack belt = bad news.

I'd ask them if they replaced the bolt in question i.e. the one that broke. Not mandatory I suspect but any bolt I had to remove using excessive torque (ahem), I would replace. I always copper greased stuff to prevent ceasing for the next time.

Slick.

Would you give me your reg? Just enables me to check model specifics. I've chatted with a friend [/globus] who is an expert (I don't rebuild my own engines these days!!) and
- did they replace the tensioner (and if so, did the kit come with a replacement stud)?
- if not, then it's really unlikely you'll get anywhere beyond a goodwill gesture
- if they did, how the stud broke matters

> if it snapped, that would happen on a diesel if the belt came loose for whatever reason. You get vibration and "whip" and the stud is gone on the tensioner
> if the threads have come apart, then high probability of it being over-tensioned and if they were the last people to tighten it up...... Of course, if it was the original stud, then it may have weakened enough so that even "correct" tension would have been too much. Hence my point earlier about me replacing such things. I could never see the point in replacing a £00s item whilst keeping a 50p bolt.

Torq,

What they are saying, I think, is that it was the old stud. I'm speaking to them again tomorrow so can check.

The threads have come apart, they showed it to me this morning, he was quick to point out that they did they tension to Audi standards

slick wrote:Torq,

What they are saying, I think, is that it was the old stud. I'm speaking to them again tomorrow so can check.

The threads have come apart, they showed it to me this morning, he was quick to point out that they did they tension to Audi standards

I think Audi standards are 20Nm plus 45 degrees (which is just weird) if I've guessed your model correctly.

Also, don't think your model's kits (tensioner) come with a replacement stud by default. When they come with a new stud (50p...), it's because the manufacturer is effectively admitting that they are known to fail on replacement. Don't think that is the case here so replacing the stud is a matter of discretion by the garage.

My friend's take is it is grey zone. Technically your garage has done nothing wrong (assuming correct tension which we will never know) BUT
- wiser practice on replacing the tensioner would have been to replace the stud. Or at least have given you the option (for 50p...).
- they were the last ones to touch it and it probably would not have failed (so soon, anyway) had it not been duressed by undoing and refitting

Friend would have suggested labour free repair i.e. you buy the parts and they fit free. But thinks they are unlikely to do so because labour costs for rebuild will be high. Maybe more than car is worth!! Kinda depends what value they see in you as a long term customer (or complainer!!!).

All in all, unfortunate but probably could have been avoided with a bit more (not legally mandatory) care.

slick wrote:Thanks again all.

I just went down to the garage and they showed me and tried to explain, this is what I got:

The bolt that holds the tensioner that goes into the cylinder head expired. The steel bolt that goes into the alloy has pulled the thread out at the alloy

The belt is fine.

I don't know what this means. I've left it that I will go back to them tomorrow about scrapping it or kicking up a fuss. From what I've seen on here I should be at least making a cursory attempt at a fuss.

EDIT: I called back to get more clarification and another mechanic said this:

the timing belt tensioner sits on a stud and the threads that go into the cylinder head have come apart. This has allowed the tensioner to move which has loosened the belt and and the timer has jumped.

Are those two things the same, does it make any sense?

They farked the thread and didn't helicoil it. I'd be pointing out it was fine for 170k until they touched it.

slick wrote:Torq,

What they are saying, I think, is that it was the old stud. I'm speaking to them again tomorrow so can check.

The threads have come apart, they showed it to me this morning, he was quick to point out that they did they tension to Audi standards

They've pulled the stud when removing the nut and put it back in As a bolt. When they took it out with an impact gun it will have stripped the aluminium.

slick wrote:Thanks again all.

I just went down to the garage and they showed me and tried to explain, this is what I got:

The bolt that holds the tensioner that goes into the cylinder head expired. The steel bolt that goes into the alloy has pulled the thread out at the alloy

The belt is fine.

I don't know what this means. I've left it that I will go back to them tomorrow about scrapping it or kicking up a fuss. From what I've seen on here I should be at least making a cursory attempt at a fuss.

EDIT: I called back to get more clarification and another mechanic said this:

the timing belt tensioner sits on a stud and the threads that go into the cylinder head have come apart. This has allowed the tensioner to move which has loosened the belt and and the timer has jumped.

Are those two things the same, does it make any sense?

So, one of their monkeys over torqued the bolt holding the tensioner, which then popped out of the threads they'd stripped... which would cause the belt to slip.
Sounds to me that it is very likely still down to their shoddy work. The likelihood that the threads just happened to disintegrate shortly after they'd worked on the engine, and it not being their fault, are frankly minuscule.

DragsterDriver wrote:

slick wrote:Thanks again all.

I just went down to the garage and they showed me and tried to explain, this is what I got:

The bolt that holds the tensioner that goes into the cylinder head expired. The steel bolt that goes into the alloy has pulled the thread out at the alloy

The belt is fine.

I don't know what this means. I've left it that I will go back to them tomorrow about scrapping it or kicking up a fuss. From what I've seen on here I should be at least making a cursory attempt at a fuss.

EDIT: I called back to get more clarification and another mechanic said this:

the timing belt tensioner sits on a stud and the threads that go into the cylinder head have come apart. This has allowed the tensioner to move which has loosened the belt and and the timer has jumped.

Are those two things the same, does it make any sense?

They farked the thread and didn't helicoil it. I'd be pointing out it was fine for 170k until they touched it.

All the typical fun to be had with cars.... I had to tap and die a thread when the bolt on a wheel hub sheared off. Drilling out the headless remains in situ. :¬(
Can't exactly tip the car on its side and pillar drill!

Contact between differing metal types is always prone to cause problems.

spookly wrote:

slick wrote:Thanks again all.

I just went down to the garage and they showed me and tried to explain, this is what I got:

The bolt that holds the tensioner that goes into the cylinder head expired. The steel bolt that goes into the alloy has pulled the thread out at the alloy

The belt is fine.

I don't know what this means. I've left it that I will go back to them tomorrow about scrapping it or kicking up a fuss. From what I've seen on here I should be at least making a cursory attempt at a fuss.

EDIT: I called back to get more clarification and another mechanic said this:

the timing belt tensioner sits on a stud and the threads that go into the cylinder head have come apart. This has allowed the tensioner to move which has loosened the belt and and the timer has jumped.

Are those two things the same, does it make any sense?

So, one of their monkeys over torqued the bolt holding the tensioner, which then popped out of the threads they'd stripped... which would cause the belt to slip.
Sounds to me that it is very likely still down to their shoddy work. The likelihood that the threads just happened to disintegrate shortly after they'd worked on the engine, and it not being their fault, are frankly minuscule.

I assume we all reckon te garage fupped up. Proving it is a much different issue though. I reckon our poor car owner gets stuffed here regardless

spookly wrote: So, one of their monkeys over torqued the bolt holding the tensioner, which then popped out of the threads they'd stripped... which would cause the belt to slip.
Sounds to me that it is very likely still down to their shoddy work. The likelihood that the threads just happened to disintegrate shortly after they'd worked on the engine, and it not being their fault, are frankly minuscule.

We don't know that. It's entirely feasible that it failed under correct tension. That's the trouble when you apply force to remove something that has been jammed in situ for years as a result of heat, moisture, other chemicals (maybe engine degreaser) and the actions/reactions that occur from contact of differing metal types (incl differing expansion and contraction rates). Removing it may weaken it fatally.

For want of a nail and all that.

What we can be sure of is that had a new stud been used, this would not have happened. Even if it had been over tightened.

What are the chances of the OP getting a running engine for his vehicle in the UK ? (second hand, probably, or a rebuilt unit) ? Save a bit on the repair. Garage can install the engine at a lower rate, for him, as goodwill.

A VW diesel at 180,000 miles should still be a good engine, unless misused. Maybe look at a scrap yard.

Wilson's Toffee wrote:What are the chances of the OP getting a running engine for his vehicle in the UK ? (second hand, probably, or a rebuilt unit) ? Save a bit on the repair. Garage can install the engine at a lower rate, for him, as goodwill.

A VW diesel at 180,000 miles should still be a good engine, unless misused. Maybe look at a scrap yard.

Meh, used cars are so cheap here he'd get a better one, cheaper than the engine/installation cost.

Sandstorm wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:What are the chances of the OP getting a running engine for his vehicle in the UK ? (second hand, probably, or a rebuilt unit) ? Save a bit on the repair. Garage can install the engine at a lower rate, for him, as goodwill.

A VW diesel at 180,000 miles should still be a good engine, unless misused. Maybe look at a scrap yard.

Meh, used cars are so cheap here he'd get a better one, cheaper than the engine/installation cost.

OK. I have a neighbour from Eastern Europe, who buy cars in Holland. As a hobby. Convert them to run on gas and sell them at a profit.
I've seen some photos, looks as if their are still good cars available ate very reasonable prices.

Sandstorm wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:What are the chances of the OP getting a running engine for his vehicle in the UK ? (second hand, probably, or a rebuilt unit) ? Save a bit on the repair. Garage can install the engine at a lower rate, for him, as goodwill.

A VW diesel at 180,000 miles should still be a good engine, unless misused. Maybe look at a scrap yard.

Meh, used cars are so cheap here he'd get a better one, cheaper than the engine/installation cost.

I think that's true once you get above, say, £3k. The market below that is bizarre. A bit like rents on flats: demand is high and so everything is over priced.

Cheap in absolute terms but for that you are looking at vehicles with a significant risk of sudden repair bills that are beyond the commercial value of the car.

Sometimes we have to take risks. The OP did, and lost out, in this instance.

Bad luck.

Wilson's Toffee wrote:Sometimes we have to take risks. The OP did, and lost out, in this instance.

Bad luck.

Agree. Moving or changing anything in an old car is a risk (and I sympathise with garages on this having been on the other end of unintended consequences of my own repairs). The pity here is this risk could have been eliminated for the sake of a few pence.

People are always too clever with other people's money ....
Especially when the smart thing to do requires them to make an effort.

Update: Spoke with the garage, explained that having asked around it was only reasonable for them to take some responsibility. Used the line about a 50p stud might have stopped it and although it may not be standard practice to replace it was good practice.

Anyway, he agreed and said we could negotiate. I started with me paying for parts and them to fix it up in spare time over the next 2-3 weeks. He offered 50% reduction in labour.

He's coming back with a worst case scenario quote on the parts, with labour about £375.

hey slick, I know this is a moot point, but had this happened about 5 months ago, I would have let you have my Astra for a tenner, for that is what I sold it to a mate for as I knew he would change the brake pads and keep it running.

is your old A4 even worth £375 now ? can't help thinking your jalopy is entering good money after bad territory.

Wilson's Toffee wrote:What are the chances of the OP getting a running engine for his vehicle in the UK ? (second hand, probably, or a rebuilt unit) ? Save a bit on the repair. Garage can install the engine at a lower rate, for him, as goodwill.

A VW diesel at 180,000 miles should still be a good engine, unless misused. Maybe look at a scrap yard.

Engine transplants are not difficult, and in fact are prolly a better option than repairing the old one.

backrow wrote:hey slick, I know this is a moot point, but had this happened about 5 months ago, I would have let you have my Astra for a tenner, for that is what I sold it to a mate for as I knew he would change the brake pads and keep it running.

is your old A4 even worth £375 now ? can't help thinking your jalopy is entering good money after bad territory.

It's worth it insomuch as I can't really afford much more at the moment, have to be really careful for the next 6 months and if thats what it costs to have a car running then I suppose I'll have to do it.

I guess that's a "no" as to the walkability of your neighbourhood then.

jdogscoop wrote:I guess that's a "no" as to the walkability of your neighbourhood then.

eh?

lads, a while back we had a chip-in for some poor person to have some decent drink-ups and hopefully score with a fit euro type, surely this is an equally deserving cause. Captain Greybonce here is a top chap, a newish dad, Bro's before Ho's etc, if we chip in we can keep his banger going until the next mal-maintained part explodes.



I unfortunately have zero idea how to set up these 'justgiving' type things up, so will have to rely on the (presume Northamptonshite based) inventor of such websites to actually do the deed, then I can spare Mr Salt & no pepper some Scheckles.

slick wrote:Update: Spoke with the garage, explained that having asked around it was only reasonable for them to take some responsibility. Used the line about a 50p stud might have stopped it and although it may not be standard practice to replace it was good practice.

Anyway, he agreed and said we could negotiate. I started with me paying for parts and them to fix it up in spare time over the next 2-3 weeks. He offered 50% reduction in labour.

He's coming back with a worst case scenario quote on the parts, with labour about £375.

backrow wrote:lads, a while back we had a chip-in for some poor person to have some decent drink-ups and hopefully score with a fit euro type, surely this is an equally deserving cause. Captain Greybonce here is a top chap, a newish dad, Bro's before Ho's etc, if we chip in we can keep his banger going until the next mal-maintained part explodes.



I unfortunately have zero idea how to set up these 'justgiving' type things up, so will have to rely on the (presume Northamptonshite based) inventor of such websites to actually do the deed, then I can spare Mr Salt & no pepper some Scheckles.

Am I getting cash or a fit euro type?

You're very kind, but it's just a bump in the road that comes with starting your own business. This time next year Rodney.

slick wrote:

backrow wrote:lads, a while back we had a chip-in for some poor person to have some decent drink-ups and hopefully score with a fit euro type, surely this is an equally deserving cause. Captain Greybonce here is a top chap, a newish dad, Bro's before Ho's etc, if we chip in we can keep his banger going until the next mal-maintained part explodes.



I unfortunately have zero idea how to set up these 'justgiving' type things up, so will have to rely on the (presume Northamptonshite based) inventor of such websites to actually do the deed, then I can spare Mr Salt & no pepper some Scheckles.

Am I getting cash or a fit euro type?

You're very kind, but it's just a bump in the road that comes with starting your own business. This time next year Rodney.

from me, it would be £
from others, it would be Fit Euro type as he certainly ain't using it (snigger)

may I ask, what business is it you is starting ? get a lease car then !
also, sell yourself your laptop for £1000 which is what I've done for each business I've had. its a wizard legal wheeze to reduce tax.

They still want £1,000. Not worth it I think.

A garage offering anything is a miracle really- they're usually shits about it.

DragsterDriver wrote:A garage offering anything is a miracle really- they're usually shits about it.

They were really good TBH. Even finished todays conversations with "I understand you might want to negotiate a bit more"...

slick wrote:They still want £1,000. Not worth it I think.

You are into the risk of good money after bad.

If you can get a good rebuild/recon at a decent price it might work. Depends on the engineering, the installation work, quality of parts and labour and costs.

There are no "runners" (pre-conditioned engines) or second hand engines available ? It might be a short term solution.

DragsterDriver wrote:A garage offering anything is a miracle really- they're usually shits about it.

Modus operandi for business UK. Poor quality and terrible customer relations.

You have to look hard and then you will find exceptions. I've only used 2 garages in 30+ years and they are great. Occasionally they screw up but they tell you and then get it sorted fairly.