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Author:  slick [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Car Issue

Just hoping someone might have some good advice.

We have an old Audi A4 diesel, it has about 170,000 on the clock so when I took it in for a service 6 weeks ago the garage strongly advised me to have a new cam belt fitted. I did this under a bit of duress as cash is tight at the moment and there has never been a hint of a problem - the mechanic explained that if it does go it will probably take the engine with it and that will be that.

Coming back last week from a terrible, terrible Christmas in London the cam belt went around Birmingham. We eventually got back and the car got delivered to the garage that did the work, today. We had only done around 600 miles since the new belt was fitted.

Just had a call from them confirming the worst, ie the engines f**ked and its not worth fixing. I'm going in to see them in the morning, but where do I stand? Tought shit? Try and get some compensation? Just spoke with insurance who said tought titties as far as they are concerned.

This has been a very miserable 3 weeks.

Author:  Sandstorm [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Cambelt should be changed around 80k, not 170k. I suggest the new, tighter belt put extra strain on the old motor and blew it up. Did you own the car when the clock rolled over to 80k?

Anyway, get yourself a Japanese car next time.

Author:  slick [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Sandstorm wrote:
Cambelt should be changed around 80k, not 170k. I suggest the new, tighter belt put extra strain on the old motor and blew it up. Did you own the car when the clock rolled over to 80k?

Anyway, get yourself a Japanese car next time.


I think that's kind of where he is going with it to be honest. Said his initial thoughts were that something had done something because of too much strain which had made something happen and jump causing the belt to loosen and something else to happen.

Didn't own the car then, but I'm pretty sure that it would have been done if that was what should be done. It was a company car with full service history etc.

Author:  Torquemada 1420 [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

slick wrote:
Sandstorm wrote:
Cambelt should be changed around 80k, not 170k. I suggest the new, tighter belt put extra strain on the old motor and blew it up. Did you own the car when the clock rolled over to 80k?

Anyway, get yourself a Japanese car next time.


I think that's kind of where he is going with it to be honest. Said his initial thoughts were that something had done something because of too much strain which had made something happen and jump causing the belt to loosen and something else to happen.

Didn't own the car then, but I'm pretty sure that it would have been done if that was what should be done. It was a company car with full service history etc.

OK. Not going to be much help to you economically I'm afraid but

- nearly all modern cars will suffer serious damage if the cambelt/chain goes because the pistons all rise into the valve space now to aid compression/efficiency and if the belt goes, the valves dangle like worms in a piranha pit. Rotary engines exempt.
- I would have got rid of the car. Cost of cambelt + risk outweighed the economic value of keepsie unless it was a classic car
- Bold bit. My immediate thought: belt has jumped a notch and so cam(s) now running out of sync. Also possible that belt lost a tooth or was not fitted with all the bits in alignment (TDC etc). The last 2 would be the garage's fault either through defective belt or bad fitting. Proving that is another thing: you'd need someone else to check it. Your garage would probably lie.

If the failure is due to another component, you are dusted. Even if it was because they over-tensioned it all (impossible to prove now). TBH, they should have warned you of the risk at outset.

Author:  globus [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Hello Slick. My condolences. I've had a rotten Christmas too, with flu etc. Plus my pride and joy has gone a bit awol.

No great news to offer. 170k is a lot of mileage. My former BIL had a Merc that went to nigh on 350K before it went to the car funeral resting place.

I fear your chap will go the same way. I took his engine apart and found the valves had more or less disintegrated and the piston rings were not really doing their job and were hiding somewhere.

Old age. It just creeps up on you.

If you have some car mech knowledge, you might salvage said beast. However, it's blooming cold at this time of the year and your hands might freeze to the bodywork. (It did, when I was repatriating my brother's mini to the world of travelling. His son still drives it. It has a rather good personal number plate which was my Christmas present to my brother a few years ago.)

I am acutely aware that this post is pretty well useless. It's bite the bullet time.

Author:  Openside's Butler [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Has Sir checked that there is diesel in the vehicle?

Author:  slick [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Thanks all, just confirming what I knew and feared really.

Timing, as always, is terrible.

Author:  globus [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

slick wrote:
Thanks all, just confirming what I knew and feared really.

Timing, as always, is terrible.

Learn what "top dead centre" is.

I used to use a strobe light which I made for the disco I used to run to check it out.

I fear you will probably have to give the gal the last rites.

At least you don't have an Alfa Sud. I have many tales to tell about my mate who had one.

Author:  goose81 [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

slick wrote:
Just hoping someone might have some good advice.

We have an old Audi A4 diesel, it has about 170,000 on the clock so when I took it in for a service 6 weeks ago the garage strongly advised me to have a new cam belt fitted. I did this under a bit of duress as cash is tight at the moment and there has never been a hint of a problem - the mechanic explained that if it does go it will probably take the engine with it and that will be that.

Coming back last week from a terrible, terrible Christmas in London the cam belt went around Birmingham. We eventually got back and the car got delivered to the garage that did the work, today. We had only done around 600 miles since the new belt was fitted.

Just had a call from them confirming the worst, ie the engines f**ked and its not worth fixing. I'm going in to see them in the morning, but where do I stand? Tought shit? Try and get some compensation? Just spoke with insurance who said tought titties as far as they are concerned.

This has been a very miserable 3 weeks.


Unfortunately its really just tough shit, the car has big mileage and he wasn't lying to you it did need to be done. As others have said might have put additional strain on the engine, its either jumped a tooth or snapped and mangled the valves. If its snapped you might get some comeback if its jumped a tooth which I presume it has then you cant really do anything

Author:  Spyglass [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

If it was the correct timing belt and it was correctly installed and the belt tension was correctly set, then a new belt should not put additional strain on the engine.

Find out what happened to the belt - did it snap/de-laminate, jump a tooth, tooth failed/broke off, etc. Without understanding the failure mechanism, the garage can't identify the cause.

Since the garage were that last people to touch the belt, they likely have some responsibility here.

Author:  BlackMac [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Spyglass wrote:
If it was the correct timing belt and it was correctly installed and the belt tension was correctly set, then a new belt should not put additional strain on the engine.

Find out what happened to the belt - did it snap/de-laminate, jump a tooth, tooth failed/broke off, etc. Without understanding the failure mechanism, the garage can't identify the cause.

Since the garage were that last people to touch the belt, they likely have some responsibility here.


Your big problem is that the garage will just refer you to the manufacturer of the timing belt as it was the correct after market part which was properly fitted.

Author:  danthefan [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Turn it off and turn it back on.

Author:  Ted. [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Sandstorm wrote:
Cambelt should be changed around 80k, not 170k. I suggest the new, tighter belt put extra strain on the old motor and blew it up. Did you own the car when the clock rolled over to 80k?

Anyway, get yourself a Japanese car next time.


I wouldn't think so. Cam belt failure is due to wear and fatigue, not stretching. Tension is regulated. You are unlikely to get such a catastrophic engine failure with any other component going and no warning, e.g. a knock or rattle.

A possibility is that they installed a cheap 3rd party or even second hand belt, or they misadjusted something/or a faulty the tensioner.

Get a vehicle with a cam chain.

Author:  guy smiley [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Without knowing all the details, a new cam belt will NOT cause engine failure and the garage have more than likely f**ked up here when fitting the new one.

Can you have a third party inspect the vehicle to determine responsibility?

In my book, the garage are liable for your repairs and costs.

Author:  DragsterDriver [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Yup, garage have likely cocked up. I'd have a 3rd party look at it because the ones who butchered it will spin you a yarn.

Cambelts are seriously durable.

Author:  spookly [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Sounds like your garage is telling porkies to avoid liability for cocking up the cambelt change. That excuse does not sound feasible at all. More likely that the cambelt was not correctly tensioned and it skipped a tooth. On an interference engine that will cause valves and pistons to collide, which isn't great.
Can't think it would have been anything else, as if they'd timed it incorrectly from the off it would have run rough as a dog or died on the spot. My bet would be that they didn't correctly tighten a tensioner, so it lasted a little while then let the belt slack.

Author:  guy smiley [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

spookly wrote:
Sounds like your garage is telling porkies to avoid liability for cocking up the cambelt change. That excuse does not sound feasible at all. More likely that the cambelt was not correctly tensioned and it skipped a tooth. On an interference engine that will cause valves and pistons to collide, which isn't great.
Can't think it would have been anything else, as if they'd timed it incorrectly from the off it would have run rough as a dog or died on the spot. My bet would be that they didn't correctly tighten a tensioner, so it lasted a little while then let the belt slack.

:thumbup:

Author:  TB63 [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Audi is a non interference engine iirf.. garage have feck ed up your cam belt change. .

Author:  True Blue [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Seriously, why are people saying "tough titty"?! His belt was changed and literally 600 miles later it craps out and takes out his engine. How is that not the garage? Awful inconvenience if not. I would threaten them with legal action.

Author:  goose81 [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

True Blue wrote:
Seriously, why are people saying "tough titty"?! His belt was changed and literally 600 miles later it craps out and takes out his engine. How is that not the garage? Awful inconvenience if not. I would threaten them with legal action.

It's an old car with 180k on it, if garages were responsible for stuff like this they wouldn't touch anything with over 80k on it and half the vw and BMW on the road, they will laugh if you threaten legal

Op find out exactly what has happened and we can give you better advice other than
Cambelt change and it broke

Author:  eugenefraxby [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Defective workmanship. Almost impossible to prove it was primary cause of the failure. My bloke has often said with certain cars ‘do NOT spend any more money on this car’. He recently said it about my girlfriends car a 58 Fiesta. Rust on chassis. Just running it now, might be 3 years might be 3 weeks no idea. I don’t agree with spending more on a vehicle than it’s probably worth...

Author:  Ted. [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

eugenefraxby wrote:
Defective workmanship. Almost impossible to prove it was primary cause of the failure. My bloke has often said with certain cars ‘do NOT spend any more money on this car’. He recently said it about my girlfriends car a 58 Fiesta. Rust on chassis. Just running it now, might be 3 years might be 3 weeks no idea. I don’t agree with spending more on a vehicle than it’s probably worth...


If that's anything more than 'decorative' marring, don't wait for it to be failed, or worse still, failure.

As an aside, 180km is not a lot mileage on a modern diesel. Shouldn't be hard to prove. Slick, do you belong to AA or some such?

Author:  The Native [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Ted. wrote:
eugenefraxby wrote:
Defective workmanship. Almost impossible to prove it was primary cause of the failure. My bloke has often said with certain cars ‘do NOT spend any more money on this car’. He recently said it about my girlfriends car a 58 Fiesta. Rust on chassis. Just running it now, might be 3 years might be 3 weeks no idea. I don’t agree with spending more on a vehicle than it’s probably worth...


If that's anything more than 'decorative' marring, don't wait for it to be failed, or worse still, failure.

As an aside, 180km is not a lot mileage on a modern diesel. Shouldn't be hard to prove. Slick, do you belong to AA or some such?

It'd be 180K miles wouldn't it? So nearly 300,000km.

Still, if the mechanic pressures you into changing the cambelt then turns around and says not my fault when it blows up 600 miles later, somethings wrong.

Author:  Ted. [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

The Native wrote:
Ted. wrote:
eugenefraxby wrote:
Defective workmanship. Almost impossible to prove it was primary cause of the failure. My bloke has often said with certain cars ‘do NOT spend any more money on this car’. He recently said it about my girlfriends car a 58 Fiesta. Rust on chassis. Just running it now, might be 3 years might be 3 weeks no idea. I don’t agree with spending more on a vehicle than it’s probably worth...


If that's anything more than 'decorative' marring, don't wait for it to be failed, or worse still, failure.

As an aside, 180km is not a lot mileage on a modern diesel. Shouldn't be hard to prove. Slick, do you belong to AA or some such?

It'd be 180K miles wouldn't it? So nearly 300,000km.

Still, if the mechanic pressures you into changing the cambelt then turns around and says not my fault when it blows up 600 miles later, somethings wrong.


Yep. Getting up there but not terminal for a diesel.

Agreed.

Author:  goose81 [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Ted. wrote:
The Native wrote:
Ted. wrote:
eugenefraxby wrote:
Defective workmanship. Almost impossible to prove it was primary cause of the failure. My bloke has often said with certain cars ‘do NOT spend any more money on this car’. He recently said it about my girlfriends car a 58 Fiesta. Rust on chassis. Just running it now, might be 3 years might be 3 weeks no idea. I don’t agree with spending more on a vehicle than it’s probably worth...


If that's anything more than 'decorative' marring, don't wait for it to be failed, or worse still, failure.

As an aside, 180km is not a lot mileage on a modern diesel. Shouldn't be hard to prove. Slick, do you belong to AA or some such?

It'd be 180K miles wouldn't it? So nearly 300,000km.

Still, if the mechanic pressures you into changing the cambelt then turns around and says not my fault when it blows up 600 miles later, somethings wrong.


Yep. Getting up there but not terminal for a diesel.

Agreed.


What's the service history of the car, what's been replaced. This is lunacy thinking this garage will pay a penny.

Rock up in a banger with 300km on it get a part changed and then it breaks and think the garage will fork out, dunno what planet your living on. This car was liable to break at any time regardless of the belt change, 300k is about the max you will get out of a good Diesel engine before it needs serious parts replacing, your talking this thing being near its end when it was driven in

E.g. I recently did an oil change in a mates 1.2 3 cylinder polo with 100k on it, these things are brittle as fudge and are known to skip a tooth at oil changes at the mileage due to no pressure in the tensioner, I told him if it skips a tooth on startup I'm not responsible the car, these things happens in older cars buyer beware

Author:  guy smiley [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

username checks out.

Author:  happyhooker [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Decently made diesels, such as an Audi, are by no means past it at 170k miles.

Author:  goose81 [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

guy smiley wrote:
username checks out.

You don't have a clue what your talking about mate , literally not a notion

Author:  guy smiley [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

goose81 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
username checks out.

You don't have a clue what your talking about mate , literally not a notion


Interesting. You don't know a thing about me. In fact, I reckon you're just flapping your gums believing the smacking noise it makes when it comes to knowing anything about this but by all means, have a crack at telling us why we should believe you.

Author:  goose81 [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

happyhooker wrote:
Decently made diesels, such as an Audi, are by no means past it at 170k miles.

Correct , if they are serviced correctly which requires seriously expensive components being replaced at that milleage which this may not have had done

Author:  happyhooker [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

goose81 wrote:
happyhooker wrote:
Decently made diesels, such as an Audi, are by no means past it at 170k miles.

Correct , if they are serviced correctly which requires seriously expensive components being replaced at that milleage which this may not have had done

Well it's an ex company car with a full service history so it shouldn't be too hard to find out.

Author:  goose81 [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

guy smiley wrote:
goose81 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
username checks out.

You don't have a clue what your talking about mate , literally not a notion


Interesting. You don't know a thing about me. In fact, I reckon you're just flapping your gums believing the smacking noise it makes when it comes to knowing anything about this but by all means, have a crack at telling us why we should believe you.

Your telling him to get a 3rd party inspection after the valves have gone caput , what exactly will they be able to tell him? If his belt snapped he can see that himself, if not your telling him to waste his money on an inspection that cannot prove anything that would render the garage responsible. If it's jumped they can have a multitude of excuses but preach on

Author:  guy smiley [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

goose81 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
goose81 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
username checks out.

You don't have a clue what your talking about mate , literally not a notion


Interesting. You don't know a thing about me. In fact, I reckon you're just flapping your gums believing the smacking noise it makes when it comes to knowing anything about this but by all means, have a crack at telling us why we should believe you.

Your telling him to get a 3rd party inspection after the valves have gone caput , what exactly will they be able to tell him? If his belt snapped he can see that himself, if not your telling him to waste his money on an inspection that cannot prove anything that would render the garage responsible. If it's jumped they can have a multitude of excuses but preach on



*sigh*

I'm a qualified mechanic. You're a goose.

Author:  goose81 [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

guy smiley wrote:
goose81 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
goose81 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
username checks out.

You don't have a clue what your talking about mate , literally not a notion


Interesting. You don't know a thing about me. In fact, I reckon you're just flapping your gums believing the smacking noise it makes when it comes to knowing anything about this but by all means, have a crack at telling us why we should believe you.

Your telling him to get a 3rd party inspection after the valves have gone caput , what exactly will they be able to tell him? If his belt snapped he can see that himself, if not your telling him to waste his money on an inspection that cannot prove anything that would render the garage responsible. If it's jumped they can have a multitude of excuses but preach on



*sigh*



I'm a qualified mechanic. You're a goose.


Judging by your above posts I wouldn't be bringing a car to you "a new belt cannot cause this" , it most certainly can if not fitted correctly or it can slip for a multitude of reasons.

How much do you think it will cost him in the U.K. To have a mechanic pull the head to have a guess?

Op don't waste your money just move on, see if they will give you goodwill out of niceness if not walk on.

Guy what guarantee does your garage put on repairs to cars with 300k on them? Must be some garage

Author:  guy smiley [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

goose81 wrote:

Judging by your above posts I wouldn't be bringing a car to you "a new belt cannot cause this" , it most certainly can if not fitted correctly or it can slip for a multitude of reasons.

How much do you think it will cost him in the U.K. To have a mechanic pull the head to have a guess?


That's what I said.... 'and the garage have more than likely f**ked up here when fitting the new one.'

Why pull the head? Whip off the timing belt cover and inspect the belt, pulleys and tensioners first.

You're a goose. Go away.

Author:  Miester [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Hi, my Audi has over 210k on it, a well looked after engine can do twice that.

If the cam belt broke after repair, seems to me the garage borked the job, as already stated, you need to found out what happened to the new cam belt. I reckon the garage should repair the motor.

Author:  jdogscoop [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

How walkable is your neighbourhood? No point throwing good money after bad. Get cash for scrap and be done with it.

Author:  De Damp Slaphead [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

Were the waterpump and rollers also changed? If not then they should have been, particularly on a leggy engine as the waterpump seizing will take the timing belt out.
Also worth checking if an oe belt was fitted rather than an ebay special

Author:  Torquemada 1420 [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

slick wrote:
Thanks all, just confirming what I knew and feared really.

Timing, as always, is terrible.

Somewhat unfortunate choice of words in the circumstances!

Author:  Torquemada 1420 [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Car Issue

globus wrote:
slick wrote:
Thanks all, just confirming what I knew and feared really.

Timing, as always, is terrible.

Learn what "top dead centre" is.

I used to use a strobe light which I made for the disco I used to run to check it out.


As a point of order, the strobe is only to check the timing of the engine i.e. is it sparking correctly? Useful for retarding (or advancing) timing if you have fuel type issues.

TDC has to be set mechanically.

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