Planet Rugby Forum

zt1903 wrote:Shouldn’t she be banned for taking performance enhancing drugs?

eldanielfire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... irls-title

Girl transitions to boy, via steroids and testosterone. Destroys girl opponents in wrestling because Texas law won't allow him to fight boys. To be fair to the competitor they want to wrestle the boys, not the girls. But Texas says no. So they essentially allow what would be huge amounst of doping for the athlete in the contest as a solution? It's a mess.

Seriously, it is obvious male traits, artificial or naturally give an advantage over the sexes, which is why there are sex divided sports events. It prevents discrimination against naturally born women. So why is it so hard to accept this?

IMO, if someone is or has had genetics that are XY, or have or had male levels of hormones they compete in male categories and if they don't they qualify into female events. Intersex on a case by case basis.

During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round. After her loss, Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch..."[19]

Eric Vilain, the director of the Institute For Society And Genetics at UCLA, worked with the Association of Boxing Commissions when they wrote their policy on transgender athletes. He stated in Time magazine that "Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males"[13] and was quoted as saying that, to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete "surgical anatomical changes ..., including external genitalia and gonadectomy" (see sex reassignment surgery) and subsequently a minimum of two years of hormone replacement therapy, administered by a board certified specialist. In general concurrence with peer-reviewed scientific literature,[20] he states this to be "the current understanding of the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender related advantages in sports competition". Vilain reviewed Fox's medical records and said she has "clearly fulfilled all conditions."[2] When asked if Fox could, nonetheless, be stronger than her competitors, Vilain replied that it was possible, but noted that "sports is made up of competitors who, by definition, have advantages for all kinds of genetics reasons".[13] Fox herself responded to the controversy with an analogy in a guest editorial for a UFC and MMA news website:[21]

zt1903 wrote:Shouldn’t she be banned for taking performance enhancing drugs?

Flyin Ryan wrote:
There's a competitor in mixed martial arts in the U.S. Fallon Fox that was born a male, became female. Her last fight was in 2014 against the mentioned Brents. Here's Wikipedia:

During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round. After her loss, Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch..."[19]

Eric Vilain, the director of the Institute For Society And Genetics at UCLA, worked with the Association of Boxing Commissions when they wrote their policy on transgender athletes. He stated in Time magazine that "Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males"[13] and was quoted as saying that, to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete "surgical anatomical changes ..., including external genitalia and gonadectomy" (see sex reassignment surgery) and subsequently a minimum of two years of hormone replacement therapy, administered by a board certified specialist. In general concurrence with peer-reviewed scientific literature,[20] he states this to be "the current understanding of the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender related advantages in sports competition". Vilain reviewed Fox's medical records and said she has "clearly fulfilled all conditions."[2] When asked if Fox could, nonetheless, be stronger than her competitors, Vilain replied that it was possible, but noted that "sports is made up of competitors who, by definition, have advantages for all kinds of genetics reasons".[13] Fox herself responded to the controversy with an analogy in a guest editorial for a UFC and MMA news website:[21]

Fox-Brents fight video: http://whoatv.com/fallon-fox-vs-tamikka ... ght-video/

We have separate women's athletics competitions because men in most sports competing against women would destroy the women due to biological differences between men and women. So women's sport is by definition discriminatory to only allowing women to compete in it. This is kind of a situation where the science of biology is competing against the field of political correctness. What in men's sport is a run-of-the-mill performance enhancer in testosterone becomes a complete game changer for a woman's body as far as changing her physical attributes, you can look at someone like Cris Cyborg for that (who has failed drug tests), or you can look at the history of East German female athletes at the Olympics. So you have a person that for most of their life had far more testosterone than who she competed against and suddenly they become a woman by personal choice.

Imagine it's going to come to a head in say 10 to 12 years when you see an increase in men turned women winning athletics competitions. Or it's going to be something like MMA where the transgender athlete kills her opponent.

eldanielfire wrote:

zt1903 wrote:Shouldn’t she be banned for taking performance enhancing drugs?

That's the point I brought up in the open post. It's doping regardless of the intended use of the drugs.

newportblue wrote:I always think the fallon Fox thing is strange. Always gets brought out in these conversations but being punched in the head is kind of dangerous whoever is puncher and punchee. Whether it’s two men, 2 woman, 1 of each. Bloke last night in an undercard, won the fight on points but has been Hospitalised with a head injury.

Not that I agree with trans people competing with none trans people.

eldanielfire wrote:

zt1903 wrote:Shouldn’t she be banned for taking performance enhancing drugs?

That's the point I brought up in the open post. It's doping regardless of the intended use of the drugs.

You can take pretty much any drug and still compete, you just need to complete the paperwork and prove you need it.

The UIL and Texas Education Code prevent steroid use, but the code has a “safe harbor” provision that allows a student to use steroids if they are issued for a valid medical purpose.

Beggs says his medical records were submitted before the season and he was approved to compete. He adds that he would prefer to compete in boy's wrestling but state policy calls for students to wrestle against the gender listed on their birth certificate.

“I’m not wrestling on a girl’s team to wrestle girls, I’m doing it because I’m not allowed to wrestle boys,” Beggs says. “I’m not out here to cheat. I worked my tail off and it finally paid off. People hear testosterone and think it’s the same as what a body builder uses. I’m using very minimal (dosage) because it’s what has been medically prescribed. If a male has testicular cancer and needs testosterone, are they going to try to ban him too?”

Harper, who transitioned from male to female, blames Texas officials for creating an untenable situation.

“If Beggs were competing in the NCAA, his use of testosterone would put him in the men’s division,” Harper says. “The state of Texas was trying to protect female athletes from (cisgender men) who transition. And it completely backfired. They have nobody to blame but themselves for this.”

Luciano wrote:This is politically correctness gone mad, again. You don't accept the body you were born into? You don't like classified by binary genres? Fine, but don't try to obtain an unfair advantage in sports with gender classes.

Bending the rules for some very strange cases that possibly endanger the participating females in a sport is bizarre.

And even if they are forced to take hormones or whatever, trans will never be fully biologically equal to a woman. I would like to know if there are some studies in relation to the influence of the different gender bone structures in high performance sports. And no, I am not going to google it right now.

Gwenno wrote:

Luciano wrote:This is politically correctness gone mad, again. You don't accept the body you were born into? You don't like classified by binary genres? Fine, but don't try to obtain an unfair advantage in sports with gender classes.

Bending the rules for some very strange cases that possibly endanger the participating females in a sport is bizarre.

And even if they are forced to take hormones or whatever, trans will never be fully biologically equal to a woman. I would like to know if there are some studies in relation to the influence of the different gender bone structures in high performance sports. And no, I am not going to google it right now.

They may be legally the opposite sex but biologically they are not. Cosmetic surgery and drugs don't change your chromosomes.

Flyin Ryan wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... irls-title

Girl transitions to boy, via steroids and testosterone. Destroys girl opponents in wrestling because Texas law won't allow him to fight boys. To be fair to the competitor they want to wrestle the boys, not the girls. But Texas says no. So they essentially allow what would be huge amounst of doping for the athlete in the contest as a solution? It's a mess.

Seriously, it is obvious male traits, artificial or naturally give an advantage over the sexes, which is why there are sex divided sports events. It prevents discrimination against naturally born women. So why is it so hard to accept this?

IMO, if someone is or has had genetics that are XY, or have or had male levels of hormones they compete in male categories and if they don't they qualify into female events. Intersex on a case by case basis.

There's a competitor in mixed martial arts in the U.S. Fallon Fox that was born a male, became female. Her last fight was in 2014 against the mentioned Brents. Here's Wikipedia:

During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round. After her loss, Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch..."[19]

Eric Vilain, the director of the Institute For Society And Genetics at UCLA, worked with the Association of Boxing Commissions when they wrote their policy on transgender athletes. He stated in Time magazine that "Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males"[13] and was quoted as saying that, to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete "surgical anatomical changes ..., including external genitalia and gonadectomy" (see sex reassignment surgery) and subsequently a minimum of two years of hormone replacement therapy, administered by a board certified specialist. In general concurrence with peer-reviewed scientific literature,[20] he states this to be "the current understanding of the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender related advantages in sports competition". Vilain reviewed Fox's medical records and said she has "clearly fulfilled all conditions."[2] When asked if Fox could, nonetheless, be stronger than her competitors, Vilain replied that it was possible, but noted that "sports is made up of competitors who, by definition, have advantages for all kinds of genetics reasons".[13] Fox herself responded to the controversy with an analogy in a guest editorial for a UFC and MMA news website:[21]

Fox-Brents fight video: http://whoatv.com/fallon-fox-vs-tamikka ... ght-video/

We have separate women's athletics competitions because men in most sports competing against women would destroy the women due to biological differences between men and women. So women's sport is by definition discriminatory to only allowing women to compete in it. This is kind of a situation where the science of biology is competing against the field of political correctness. What in men's sport is a run-of-the-mill performance enhancer in testosterone becomes a complete game changer for a woman's body as far as changing her physical attributes, you can look at someone like Cris Cyborg for that (who has failed drug tests), or you can look at the history of East German female athletes at the Olympics. So you have a person that for most of their life had far more testosterone than who she competed against and suddenly they become a woman by personal choice.

Imagine it's going to come to a head in say 10 to 12 years when you see an increase in men turned women winning athletics competitions. Or it's going to be something like MMA where the transgender athlete kills her opponent.

Duff Paddy wrote:

Gwenno wrote:

Luciano wrote:This is politically correctness gone mad, again. You don't accept the body you were born into? You don't like classified by binary genres? Fine, but don't try to obtain an unfair advantage in sports with gender classes.

Bending the rules for some very strange cases that possibly endanger the participating females in a sport is bizarre.

And even if they are forced to take hormones or whatever, trans will never be fully biologically equal to a woman. I would like to know if there are some studies in relation to the influence of the different gender bone structures in high performance sports. And no, I am not going to google it right now.

They may be legally the opposite sex but biologically they are not. Cosmetic surgery and drugs don't change your chromosomes.

I hope you don’t have any Klinefelters patients

Duff Paddy wrote:

Gwenno wrote:

Luciano wrote:This is politically correctness gone mad, again. You don't accept the body you were born into? You don't like classified by binary genres? Fine, but don't try to obtain an unfair advantage in sports with gender classes.

Bending the rules for some very strange cases that possibly endanger the participating females in a sport is bizarre.

And even if they are forced to take hormones or whatever, trans will never be fully biologically equal to a woman. I would like to know if there are some studies in relation to the influence of the different gender bone structures in high performance sports. And no, I am not going to google it right now.

They may be legally the opposite sex but biologically they are not. Cosmetic surgery and drugs don't change your chromosomes.[/quote


I hope you don’t have any Klinefelters patients

eldanielfire wrote:

newportblue wrote:I always think the fallon Fox thing is strange. Always gets brought out in these conversations but being punched in the head is kind of dangerous whoever is puncher and punchee. Whether it’s two men, 2 woman, 1 of each. Bloke last night in an undercard, won the fight on points but has been Hospitalised with a head injury.

Not that I agree with trans people competing with none trans people.

eldanielfire wrote:

zt1903 wrote:Shouldn’t she be banned for taking performance enhancing drugs?

That's the point I brought up in the open post. It's doping regardless of the intended use of the drugs.

You can take pretty much any drug and still compete, you just need to complete the paperwork and prove you need it.

Err that is not true. Some drugs can have a TUE, some are outright banned for competition.

Thomas wrote:There's a transgender played in the AFLW (women's AFL). She was banned last year from the AFLW but has since been allowed to play.

She represented Australia in the mens's handball in 2013 but decided to transition in 2015.

She's now 190cm and 100kg and is playing against women a lot smaller than she is. I'm in two minds about this. On one hand, I think everyone deserves the right to play sport but on the other hand, she could kill someone.

eldanielfire wrote:

Thomas wrote:There's a transgender played in the AFLW (women's AFL). She was banned last year from the AFLW but has since been allowed to play.

She represented Australia in the mens's handball in 2013 but decided to transition in 2015.

She's now 190cm and 100kg and is playing against women a lot smaller than she is. I'm in two minds about this. On one hand, I think everyone deserves the right to play sport but on the other hand, she could kill someone.

So why not let her compete with the men?

True Blue wrote:Seriously, it's a mental illness to want to start cutting bits off you and taking drugs to change your hormones etc. They should be undergoing therapy, not life changing operations. Look at the statistics for this stuff, so many of them regret it or lead to suicide. No matter what they do, they cannot change the sex they were born into. It's literally hard coded into you. So we have to ask what is going on in their life that makes them so unhappy in their body and with their body image.

Thomas wrote:I'm in two minds about this. On one hand, I think everyone deserves the right to play sport but on the other hand, she could kill someone.

Thomas wrote:

True Blue wrote:Seriously, it's a mental illness to want to start cutting bits off you and taking drugs to change your hormones etc. They should be undergoing therapy, not life changing operations. Look at the statistics for this stuff, so many of them regret it or lead to suicide. No matter what they do, they cannot change the sex they were born into. It's literally hard coded into you. So we have to ask what is going on in their life that makes them so unhappy in their body and with their body image.

I have a mate who has started transitioning. He's 45 years old, married with two kids. He has always thought of himself as a woman and dressed as one (in secret) since his teenage years. His wife is very supportive and has known since they started going out together 20 years ago. I have no idea what is going on in his head only that he is finally happy with his life. Also he's super smooth. Dude has no facial hair any more and has had his voice box shaved down. Not sure if he's going the whole hog though.

Flyin Ryan wrote:

Thomas wrote:

True Blue wrote:Seriously, it's a mental illness to want to start cutting bits off you and taking drugs to change your hormones etc. They should be undergoing therapy, not life changing operations. Look at the statistics for this stuff, so many of them regret it or lead to suicide. No matter what they do, they cannot change the sex they were born into. It's literally hard coded into you. So we have to ask what is going on in their life that makes them so unhappy in their body and with their body image.

I have a mate who has started transitioning. He's 45 years old, married with two kids. He has always thought of himself as a woman and dressed as one (in secret) since his teenage years. His wife is very supportive and has known since they started going out together 20 years ago. I have no idea what is going on in his head only that he is finally happy with his life. Also he's super smooth. Dude has no facial hair any more and has had his voice box shaved down. Not sure if he's going the whole hog though.

This is going to sound crude and flippant as hell but the question must be asked in these terms: if he identifies as a woman, why did he choose to marry a woman and stick his penis in her repeatedly to procreate? Did he think he was having a lesbian relationship and consider his penis an inverted vagina that magically produced sperm?

booji boy wrote:We have a trans gender weight lifter that apparently has been accepted by the international Olympic Committee but the Aussies are protesting prior to the Commonwealth Games. Seems ridiculous to me but at least no other women will be hurt in a weight lifting competition. But it still seems ridiculously unfair on the other female competitors.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-spo ... ightlifter

In our respectful view, the current criteria and its application has the potential to devalue women's weightlifting and discourage female-born athletes from pursuing the sport at the elite level in the future.

Thomas wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

Thomas wrote:There's a transgender played in the AFLW (women's AFL). She was banned last year from the AFLW but has since been allowed to play.

She represented Australia in the mens's handball in 2013 but decided to transition in 2015.

She's now 190cm and 100kg and is playing against women a lot smaller than she is. I'm in two minds about this. On one hand, I think everyone deserves the right to play sport but on the other hand, she could kill someone.

So why not let her compete with the men?

Because she identifies as a woman.

bimboman wrote:I won't make any comments regarding genetic B's life style choices etc, but this issue should be an easy one. If your gender issues are causing you so much distress you need medical attention then one of the things you're ganna have to give up to be mentally well is competitive sport, that's it. There's plenty of other medical or genetic conditions (being too short for basketball) the preclude a sports career this is just another one.

Tehui wrote:I'm all for protecting the human rights of transgender people. But when it comes to sport, you can't have transgender athletes competing against females. It's not an even playing field.

Thomas wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

Thomas wrote:There's a transgender played in the AFLW (women's AFL). She was banned last year from the AFLW but has since been allowed to play.

She represented Australia in the mens's handball in 2013 but decided to transition in 2015.

She's now 190cm and 100kg and is playing against women a lot smaller than she is. I'm in two minds about this. On one hand, I think everyone deserves the right to play sport but on the other hand, she could kill someone.

So why not let her compete with the men?

Because she identifies as a woman.

Thomas wrote:
To be fair, the CEO of Weightlifting Australia kinda has a point:

In our respectful view, the current criteria and its application has the potential to devalue women's weightlifting and discourage female-born athletes from pursuing the sport at the elite level in the future.

Imagine trying your hardest to be the best at your sport and then you come up against a sheila who, five years ago, was a bloke who had set a bunch of age-records.