Bridge collapse in Florida

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Boobs not Moobs
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Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Boobs not Moobs »

Installed last Sat, not yet open

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Boobs not Moobs
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Boobs not Moobs »

A newly installed pedestrian bridge has collapsed at Florida International University in the Miami area, crushing at least five vehicles and causing multiple injuries.

The 950-tonne span fell on Thursday afternoon at the university’s main Miami-area campus. Video shows vehicles underneath the bridge were hit.

Several people were seen being put into ambulances and the authorities launched search and rescue missions as Miami-Dade Fire Rescue tweeted that “multiple” people were injured.

The overhead walkway was only installed on Saturday, and was put in place to increase the safety of students crossing the busy Tamiami Trail from one area of the campus to another.

According to the Miami Herald, the operation to install the 174ft span took several hours. Construction crews had spent several months erecting support towers on either side of the roadway, and cranes lifted the walkway into place on Saturday morning, the newspaper said.

The $14.2m project was funded by the US Department of Transportation.
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DOB
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by DOB »

The only thing that stops a bad guy with a bridge is a good guy with a bridge.
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fishfoodie
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by fishfoodie »

Jaysus; that looks like the supporting concrete beams crumbled & the whole span just dropped on the roadway :(

[Edit] Scratch that. Beams are only internal supports for the roof or the crossing. The Bridge was rolled in last weekend.

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julian
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by julian »

Something failed there, er.....
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MungoMan
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by MungoMan »

DOB wrote:The only thing that stops a bad guy with a bridge is a good guy with a bridge.
I think you may be onto something here
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Gavin Duffy
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Gavin Duffy »

That's not a design type I've seen before, looks like the deck is suspended off the top beam.
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Gavin Duffy »

What it was supposed to look like ultimately.
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by grubberkick »

Gavin Duffy wrote:That's not a design type I've seen before, looks like the deck is suspended off the top beam.
Covered walkway ?
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Boobs not Moobs
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Boobs not Moobs »

Looks like it wasn't supported underneath whilst they were going to do the bit that keeps it held up.
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by camroc1 »

Looks like an erection failure (Oh Err).

Either there were meant to be props underneath until the cable stays were in place, or else the design for no supports whilst in erection stage was inadequate.
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fishfoodie
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by fishfoodie »

Gavin Duffy wrote:What it was supposed to look like ultimately.
Image

Ah, that's a good pic, it shows the column angles align with the suspension cables.

I wonder if anyone did the calculations on how the whole mass of the walkway would do without the suspension cables in situ ?
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CM11
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by CM11 »

Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
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fishfoodie
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by fishfoodie »

CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
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Gavin Duffy
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Gavin Duffy »

fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
Is it, now?
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happyhooker
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by happyhooker »

Gavin Duffy wrote:
fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
Is it, now?
Yes, it really is.










Me for one today
(No, I'm not involved in the above)
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camroc1
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by camroc1 »

fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
For an erection like this, there would be several firms of Consulting Engineers checking both the sequence, and the subsequent stresses in the bridge members for each stage; viz. the original design engineers, the contractors engineers for the erection, and possibly an independent firm acting for the client.
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CM11
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by CM11 »

Gavin Duffy wrote:
fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
Is it, now?
Well, you only have to look here to validate his point without looking anywhere else!
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fishfoodie
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by fishfoodie »

Gavin Duffy wrote:
fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
Is it, now?
I forgot to add the word 'history'.

Let's face it, there have been any number of incidents where piss-poor decisions ended up buildings/infrastructure collapsing, & people getting killed. I don't particularly single out Engineers, because often its a Accountant, or a Pointy Haired Manager who makes that faithful decision.
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Gavin Duffy
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Gavin Duffy »

CM11 wrote:
Gavin Duffy wrote:
fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
Is it, now?
Well, you only have to look here to validate his point without looking anywhere else!
I know a single data point is sufficient for you..
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CM11
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by CM11 »

camroc1 wrote:
fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
For an erection like this, there would be several firms of Consulting Engineers checking both the sequence, and the subsequent stresses in the bridge members for each stage; viz. the original design engineers, the contractors engineers for the erection, and possibly an independent firm acting for the client.
Someone is in a lot of trouble and you can be sure the lawyers are going to come out of this very rich figuring out who.
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CM11
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by CM11 »

Gavin Duffy wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Gavin Duffy wrote:
fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
Is it, now?
Well, you only have to look here to validate his point without looking anywhere else!
I know a single data point is sufficient for you..
Well, it was tongue in cheek anyway (and I always like bringing that example up as it's barely believable) but my point was that there were so many mistakes from so many different contractors that it alone was validating his point.
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by camroc1 »

CM11 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
For an erection like this, there would be several firms of Consulting Engineers checking both the sequence, and the subsequent stresses in the bridge members for each stage; viz. the original design engineers, the contractors engineers for the erection, and possibly an independent firm acting for the client.
Someone is in a lot of trouble and you can be sure the lawyers are going to come out of this very rich figuring out who.
That will be known within a couple of weeks once the forensic engineers have looked over the design for the bridge in permanent, temporary and erection stages. After that it will go to the insurers, unless there are criminal charges.
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Jeff the Bear
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Jeff the Bear »

fishfoodie wrote:
Gavin Duffy wrote:What it was supposed to look like ultimately.
Image

Ah, that's a good pic, it shows the column angles align with the suspension cables.

I wonder if anyone did the calculations on how the whole mass of the walkway would do without the suspension cables in situ ?
Temporary loading design criteria during construction is (or should be) bog standard for a construction of that size. I'd guess failure in erection over failure in design.
Last edited by Jeff the Bear on Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CM11
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by CM11 »

camroc1 wrote:
CM11 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
For an erection like this, there would be several firms of Consulting Engineers checking both the sequence, and the subsequent stresses in the bridge members for each stage; viz. the original design engineers, the contractors engineers for the erection, and possibly an independent firm acting for the client.
Someone is in a lot of trouble and you can be sure the lawyers are going to come out of this very rich figuring out who.
That will be known within a couple of weeks once the forensic engineers have looked over the design for the bridge in permanent, temporary and erection stages. After that it will go to the insurers, unless there are criminal charges.
Really? You don't see every last email and correspondence being examined from all parties and different interpretations of said correspondence being given to muddy the waters?
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fishfoodie
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by fishfoodie »

Gavin Duffy wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Gavin Duffy wrote:
fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:Epic fail if Boobs and cam are correct (and I see no reason to say they're not).

Did they somehow think that it would hold up without a load on it?
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
Is it, now?
Well, you only have to look here to validate his point without looking anywhere else!
I know a single data point is sufficient for you..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... _collapses

If I do a quick google for 'building/bridge collapse 2017' I won't be stuck for results. They might not all be down to the actually construction, they may be because of a change-of-use, or to someone using newspaper instead of concrete; but the relatives of the dead still chalk this down to 'construction'.

Remember this ?

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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by camroc1 »

CM11 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
CM11 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
fishfoodie wrote:
Sadly construction is riddled with people making cretinous decisions :((
For an erection like this, there would be several firms of Consulting Engineers checking both the sequence, and the subsequent stresses in the bridge members for each stage; viz. the original design engineers, the contractors engineers for the erection, and possibly an independent firm acting for the client.
Someone is in a lot of trouble and you can be sure the lawyers are going to come out of this very rich figuring out who.
That will be known within a couple of weeks once the forensic engineers have looked over the design for the bridge in permanent, temporary and erection stages. After that it will go to the insurers, unless there are criminal charges.
Really? You don't see every last email and correspondence being examined from all parties and different interpretations of said correspondence being given to muddy the waters?
No. That's a spectacular failure. The reason for it will become very clear, very quickly, and will be agreed by all the engineers involved.

I don't know whether Jeff agrees, but looking at the height of the stay tower, it looks to me that the requisite node points should have been propped to ground until the permanent cables were fixed in place. That is the RC girder was not designed to span the road on its own even in the unloaded state.
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CM11
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by CM11 »

Fair enough cam.
That is the RC girder was not designed to span the road on its own even in the unloaded state.
Isn't that what I already said without the fancy wording? :P
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Jeff the Bear »

That's nonsense. Newly engineered, newly built structures very very very rarely collapse. I mean infinitesimally small numbers when you consider how many new structures are built in a given year.

In fact, an old skool engineer who taught me once said (correctly in my opinion), when discussing why the general populace don't appear to give engineering it's dues..."engineers don't get respect, because nothing ever falls down. The effort that goes into making sure a building stands up is therefore not appreciated, and is just accepted. You can guarantee if things fell down all the time, then there'd be a lot more respect for good engineers."
Last edited by Jeff the Bear on Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by fishfoodie »

camroc1 wrote: No. That's a spectacular failure. The reason for it will become very clear, very quickly, and will be agreed by all the engineers involved.

I don't know whether Jeff agrees, but looking at the height of the stay tower, it looks to me that the requisite node points should have been propped to ground until the permanent cables were fixed in place. That is the RC girder was not designed to span the road on its own even in the unloaded state.

And if the bridge was designed to hang from the roof of the walkway, rather than supported off the walkway; that might very well be the problem, as it looks like it was only supported at the two ends, under the walkway.

As you say, we'll probably find out very quickly
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CM11
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by CM11 »

Jeff the Bear wrote:That's nonsense. Newly engineered, newly built structures very very very rarely collapse. I mean infinitesimally small numbers when you consider how many new structures are built in a given year.

In fact, and old skool engineer who taught me once said (correctly in my opinion), when discussing why the gene4wl populace don't appear to give engineering it's dues..."engineers don't get respect, because nothing ever falls down. The effort that goes into making sure a building stands up is therefore not apprecjated, and is just accepted. You can guarantee if things fell down all the time, then there'd be a lot more respect for good engineers."
Presume that's directed at fishfoodie?

Obviously you make a valid point but I think it'd be fair to say that there are plenty of mistakes in the process that have to be fixed along the way and sometimes those errors don't get fixed.
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Jeff the Bear
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Jeff the Bear »

No. That's a spectacular failure. The reason for it will become very clear, very quickly, and will be agreed by all the engineers involved.

I don't know whether Jeff agrees, but looking at the height of the stay tower, it looks to me that the requisite node points should have been propped to ground until the permanent cables were fixed in place. That is the RC girder was not designed to span the road on its own even in the unloaded state.
Yeah, that definitely looks the issue. It's fairly obvious, but if the girder could span that distance on it's own, then there'd be no need for the cable stayed portion. Without knowing the exact support conditions prior to collapse, it's tough to be accurate...suffice to say, and noted, that bridge would have needed a few intermediary supports underneath until the cables were attached to the roof.
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by fishfoodie »

CM11 wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:That's nonsense. Newly engineered, newly built structures very very very rarely collapse. I mean infinitesimally small numbers when you consider how many new structures are built in a given year.

In fact, and old skool engineer who taught me once said (correctly in my opinion), when discussing why the gene4wl populace don't appear to give engineering it's dues..."engineers don't get respect, because nothing ever falls down. The effort that goes into making sure a building stands up is therefore not apprecjated, and is just accepted. You can guarantee if things fell down all the time, then there'd be a lot more respect for good engineers."
Presume that's directed at fishfoodie?

Obviously you make a valid point but I think it'd be fair to say that there are plenty of mistakes in the process that have to be fixed along the way and sometimes those errors don't get fixed.
Aye, it's certainly a excellent point, that the failures are a tiny fraction of the overall population; but when the bad things happen, they're inevitably spectacular, & end up leading on the News Programs.

Toyota, or Ford can kill off hundreds before the even trouble themselves to order a recall, but if a bridge falls down, someone is going to Gaol.
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by True Blue »

Jeff the Bear wrote:That's nonsense. Newly engineered, newly built structures very very very rarely collapse. I mean infinitesimally small numbers when you consider how many new structures are built in a given year.

In fact, an old skool engineer who taught me once said (correctly in my opinion), when discussing why the general populace don't appear to give engineering it's dues..."engineers don't get respect, because nothing ever falls down. The effort that goes into making sure a building stands up is therefore not appreciated, and is just accepted. You can guarantee if things fell down all the time, then there'd be a lot more respect for good engineers."
Same goes for IT as well though. You only hear the complaints when something doesn't work, that is human nature.
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by The Man Without Fear »

fishfoodie wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:That's nonsense. Newly engineered, newly built structures very very very rarely collapse. I mean infinitesimally small numbers when you consider how many new structures are built in a given year.

In fact, and old skool engineer who taught me once said (correctly in my opinion), when discussing why the gene4wl populace don't appear to give engineering it's dues..."engineers don't get respect, because nothing ever falls down. The effort that goes into making sure a building stands up is therefore not apprecjated, and is just accepted. You can guarantee if things fell down all the time, then there'd be a lot more respect for good engineers."
Presume that's directed at fishfoodie?

Obviously you make a valid point but I think it'd be fair to say that there are plenty of mistakes in the process that have to be fixed along the way and sometimes those errors don't get fixed.
Aye, it's certainly a excellent point, that the failures are a tiny fraction of the overall population; but when the bad things happen, they're inevitably spectacular, & end up leading on the News Programs.

Toyota, or Ford can kill off hundreds before the even trouble themselves to order a recall, but if a bridge falls down, someone is going to Gaol.
Indeed, Ford have just issued a recall on over a million cars because the steering wheel might fall off.
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Boobs not Moobs »

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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by spike »

According to this eyewitness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKxR7iU9vTo&t=4s a large white and black mobile crane was lifting something that snapped immediately prior to the collapse. The crane was quickly moved away. In the DM article you can see the blue equipment he refers to lying on the top of the rubble. You can also see the crane.
Youtube video is entitled Stress test causes bridge to collapse.
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DOB
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by DOB »

I can’t believe they would conduct a stress test while the road under the bridge was active. Or that they would open the road to traffic unless they were absolutely 100% certain that the structure had passed the stress test and had deflected elastically back to its original condition.
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by Openside »

Hard to believe that cost 16.2 Million!! It certainly wasn’t worth that :lol: :lol:
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Re: Bridge collapse in Florida

Post by camroc1 »

DOB wrote:I can’t believe they would conduct a stress test while the road under the bridge was active. Or that they would open the road to traffic unless they were absolutely 100% certain that the structure had passed the stress test and had deflected elastically back to its original condition.
This is the bit I don't get. If I designed any piece of structure, or perhaps more importantly was responsible for the design of any piece of structure, that was to span over an open public road in the temporary condition, I would be making sure of a belt and braces solution, with the expectation that the main contractors/erectors insurers engineers would be adding at least an extra belt to that.

The risks involved would call for nothing else.
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