Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

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booze
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by booze »

LandOTurk wrote:
booze wrote:
Boris wrote:He has improved dramatically over his career:

Pre 2008: 62 wickets; average 39.2; strike rate 62.7
2008-2013: 278 wickets; average 28.7; strike rate 58.4
2014 onwards: 224 wickets; average 21.1; strike rate 50.7

Over the last few years, he has been among the best quick bowlers in the world. Steyn and Rabada have much lower strike rates though.
Boris, you will find a majority of bowlers have similar improvements as they hone their craft.

Anderson is an outstanding bowler but his strike rate and average are not as good as other greats
I would suspect that when McGrath has Warne bowling too, the pressure on the batsmen is that much greater. It would have some influcnce on teh average. I am not saying very sgnificantly, but still something.
plenty of scenarios, that supports arguments. anderson bowling with a duke in english conditions, mcgrath on aus wickets, Dev on indian dustbowls. Anderson has benefited in recent years from batsman who struggle with test match conditions now that T20 has taken over. Hadlee's back up was a big drop in class so far less ability to build pressure at the other end.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by blindcider »

One thing I think is difficult to argue against is that if you are selecting a hypothetical all time XI to play a test match at Lords you would be picking Jimmy Anderson.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by booze »

blindcider wrote:One thing I think is difficult to argue against is that if you are selecting a hypothetical all time XI to play a test match at Lords you would be picking Jimmy Anderson.
hypothetically no. Lille and Hadlee to open the bowling ;-)


With test cricket under such threat I doubt that this record number of wickets for a fast bowler will ever be beaten. We can talk about averages etc but Anderson has the most wickets by a fast bowler probably foerver.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Rowdy »

booze wrote:
blindcider wrote:One thing I think is difficult to argue against is that if you are selecting a hypothetical all time XI to play a test match at Lords you would be picking Jimmy Anderson.
hypothetically no. Lille and Hadlee to open the bowling ;-)


With test cricket under such threat I doubt that this record number of wickets for a fast bowler will ever be beaten. We can talk about averages etc but Anderson has the most wickets by a fast bowler probably foerver.
Hypothetically, wherever the game is played, you would open with Marshall and Ambrose.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by etherman »

An article from 2011, mid career jimmy. Really impressive figures: http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 24185.html
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Masterji »

Jimmy is a great bowler and his stats are brilliant but in all conditions i wouldnt put him as a top 10 bowler.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by LandOTurk »

RodneyRegis wrote:Broad would need to play another 37 matches at that rate. He's played 11 matches per year, so he'd need another 3 or 4 years. He's 32 now. Doubt it.
Jimmy is 36.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Boris »

booze wrote:
Boris wrote:He has improved dramatically over his career:

Pre 2008: 62 wickets; average 39.2; strike rate 62.7
2008-2013: 278 wickets; average 28.7; strike rate 58.4
2014 onwards: 224 wickets; average 21.1; strike rate 50.7

Over the last few years, he has been among the best quick bowlers in the world. Steyn and Rabada have much lower strike rates though.
Boris, you will find a majority of bowlers have similar improvements as they hone their craft.

Anderson is an outstanding bowler but his strike rate and average are not as good as other greats
Yes, I agree with your conclusion. Was just interested to see how he has gone from so-so, with potential, in the early part of his career, to good but nothing to shout about, in the mid-phase, to outstanding in his 30s. Most of the "greats" are churning out fantastic stats quite early on in their careers e.g. Steyn, McGrath, Marshall, Ambrose. Jimmy has really had to work hard to get to that level. Oddly enough, that coincided with him getting slower.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by booze »

Rowdy wrote:
booze wrote:
blindcider wrote:One thing I think is difficult to argue against is that if you are selecting a hypothetical all time XI to play a test match at Lords you would be picking Jimmy Anderson.
hypothetically no. Lille and Hadlee to open the bowling ;-)


With test cricket under such threat I doubt that this record number of wickets for a fast bowler will ever be beaten. We can talk about averages etc but Anderson has the most wickets by a fast bowler probably foerver.
Hypothetically, wherever the game is played, you would open with Marshall and Ambrose.
Never heard of them ;-)
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by LandOTurk »

booze wrote:
Rowdy wrote:
booze wrote:
blindcider wrote:One thing I think is difficult to argue against is that if you are selecting a hypothetical all time XI to play a test match at Lords you would be picking Jimmy Anderson.
hypothetically no. Lille and Hadlee to open the bowling ;-)


With test cricket under such threat I doubt that this record number of wickets for a fast bowler will ever be beaten. We can talk about averages etc but Anderson has the most wickets by a fast bowler probably foerver.
Hypothetically, wherever the game is played, you would open with Marshall and Ambrose.
Never heard of them ;-)
I only learned (or remembered?) the other day that Malcolm Marshall died of cancer in 1999 at the age of 41. Fcuk!
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by booze »

LandOTurk wrote:
booze wrote:
Rowdy wrote:
booze wrote:
blindcider wrote:One thing I think is difficult to argue against is that if you are selecting a hypothetical all time XI to play a test match at Lords you would be picking Jimmy Anderson.
hypothetically no. Lille and Hadlee to open the bowling ;-)


With test cricket under such threat I doubt that this record number of wickets for a fast bowler will ever be beaten. We can talk about averages etc but Anderson has the most wickets by a fast bowler probably foerver.
Hypothetically, wherever the game is played, you would open with Marshall and Ambrose.
Never heard of them ;-)
I only learned (or remembered?) the other day that Malcolm Marshall died of cancer in 1999 at the age of 41. Fcuk!
Yes, was a real shock at the time. It’s a real reminder of mortality when guys like him get struck down early
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Got more wickets than any other fast blower. GOAT
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by holbob »

Boris wrote:
booze wrote:
Boris wrote:He has improved dramatically over his career:

Pre 2008: 62 wickets; average 39.2; strike rate 62.7
2008-2013: 278 wickets; average 28.7; strike rate 58.4
2014 onwards: 224 wickets; average 21.1; strike rate 50.7

Over the last few years, he has been among the best quick bowlers in the world. Steyn and Rabada have much lower strike rates though.
Boris, you will find a majority of bowlers have similar improvements as they hone their craft.

Anderson is an outstanding bowler but his strike rate and average are not as good as other greats
Yes, I agree with your conclusion. Was just interested to see how he has gone from so-so, with potential, in the early part of his career, to good but nothing to shout about, in the mid-phase, to outstanding in his 30s. Most of the "greats" are churning out fantastic stats quite early on in their careers e.g. Steyn, McGrath, Marshall, Ambrose. Jimmy has really had to work hard to get to that level. Oddly enough, that coincided with him getting slower.
Same thing happened with mcgrath and shaun pollock, when they got slower they improved as bowlers.

You can't compare mcgrath and Anderson btw, mcgrath was a line bowler and Anderson is a swing bowler. Anderson in particular has had to hone his craft more to find other ways of getting people out when it doesn't swing..
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by sorCrer »

Still to early to tell if Rabada will stay fit but he is going well with 150 odd wickets at 21. Age is 23 now.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Dobbin »

booze wrote:
LandOTurk wrote:
I only learned (or remembered?) the other day that Malcolm Marshall died of cancer in 1999 at the age of 41. Fcuk!
Yes, was a real shock at the time. It’s a real reminder of mortality when guys like him get struck down early
I remember seeing Marshall a few times when he played for Hampshire. Side on to the wicket, all you could see was his smooth run up and delivery, and then a split second later the batsman moving. And often the stumps clattering. He's the GOAT as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by TokenSarriesFan »

Rowdy wrote:
booze wrote:
blindcider wrote:One thing I think is difficult to argue against is that if you are selecting a hypothetical all time XI to play a test match at Lords you would be picking Jimmy Anderson.
hypothetically no. Lille and Hadlee to open the bowling ;-)


With test cricket under such threat I doubt that this record number of wickets for a fast bowler will ever be beaten. We can talk about averages etc but Anderson has the most wickets by a fast bowler probably foerver.
Hypothetically, wherever the game is played, you would open with Marshall and Ambrose.
That entirely depends on where said test is taking place and weather conditions.

On an overcast day at Trent Bridge I would start with (and likely end with in short order) Anderson and McGrath. At the WACA? Marshall and Ambrose.

Incidently can someone explain why Ambrose never toured India?
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by booze »

TokenSarriesFan wrote:
Rowdy wrote:
booze wrote:
blindcider wrote:One thing I think is difficult to argue against is that if you are selecting a hypothetical all time XI to play a test match at Lords you would be picking Jimmy Anderson.
hypothetically no. Lille and Hadlee to open the bowling ;-)


With test cricket under such threat I doubt that this record number of wickets for a fast bowler will ever be beaten. We can talk about averages etc but Anderson has the most wickets by a fast bowler probably foerver.
Hypothetically, wherever the game is played, you would open with Marshall and Ambrose.
That entirely depends on where said test is taking place and weather conditions.

On an overcast day at Trent Bridge I would start with (and likely end with in short order) Anderson and McGrath. At the WACA? Marshall and Ambrose.

Incidently can someone explain why Ambrose never toured India?
Trent Bridge would have to be Hadlee opening
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by vh5150 »

Anderson is a fine pace bowler who averages about 12 with the Duke ball in England and about 40 anywhere else in the world. McGrath the greater bowler here. I’d rate Steyn the best pack bowler of the last 15 years and he’s the only one who has CPI stats anywhere near Sir Richard Hadlee who performed all around the world and especially liked performing in front of the Aussies and English.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by De Damp Slaphead »

Nothing to do with the subject being discussed, but interesting nonetheless - Worlds Fastest Bowler Competition in 1979 (3 minutes 25 onwards)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjkBNxKZOE8
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by booze »

vh5150 wrote:Anderson is a fine pace bowler who averages about 12 with the Duke ball in England and about 40 anywhere else in the world. McGrath the greater bowler here. I’d rate Steyn the best pack bowler of the last 15 years and he’s the only one who has CPI stats anywhere near Sir Richard Hadlee who performed all around the world and especially liked performing in front of the Aussies and English.
40 really :shock:

I dont think Hadlee gets the recognition he deserves but that may be because he played from unfashionable NZ and wasnt as quick as a Marshall etc and played in an era before blanked worldwide cricket coverage.

But by christ he was an incredible cricketer. A rolls royce of a bowler who was mesmerising to watch and had everything in his armoury as a bowler. Even left arm offspin :lol:
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Woddy »

If I had to pick an opening pair for anywhere in the world, I'd go with Waqar and Walsh. Pure speed with swing at one end, and skilful variations down the other.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by TokenSarriesFan »

vh5150 wrote:Anderson is a fine pace bowler who averages about 12 with the Duke ball in England and about 40 anywhere else in the world. McGrath the greater bowler here. I’d rate Steyn the best pack bowler of the last 15 years and he’s the only one who has CPI stats anywhere near Sir Richard Hadlee who performed all around the world and especially liked performing in front of the Aussies and English.
By 12 you mean 23 and by 40 you mean 32.

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statisti ... =3065#bowl
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by booze »

TokenSarriesFan wrote:
vh5150 wrote:Anderson is a fine pace bowler who averages about 12 with the Duke ball in England and about 40 anywhere else in the world. McGrath the greater bowler here. I’d rate Steyn the best pack bowler of the last 15 years and he’s the only one who has CPI stats anywhere near Sir Richard Hadlee who performed all around the world and especially liked performing in front of the Aussies and English.
By 12 you mean 23 and by 40 you mean 32.

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statisti ... =3065#bowl
32 is pretty poor for your main strike bowler, let alone a 67 strike rate
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by booze »

Compare that to Hadlee who had a better away record than in NZ

21.7 average and a strike rate of 48 in all test away from NZ!
Last edited by booze on Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by The Man Without Fear »

Mind you, there can't be many bowlers who've been f**ked about by coaches as much as Anderson was in the early part of his career.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by TokenSarriesFan »

booze wrote:Compare that to Hadlee who had a better away record than in NZ

21.7 average and a strike rate of 48 in all test away from NZ!
Most of those where in England and Australia! Anderson's figures are bad from bowling on dustbowls in India and Sri Lanka.

Hadlee has a Ave of 44 in Sri Lanka when they where amateurs ffs.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by A5D5E5 »

Dobbin wrote:
booze wrote:
LandOTurk wrote:
I only learned (or remembered?) the other day that Malcolm Marshall died of cancer in 1999 at the age of 41. Fcuk!
Yes, was a real shock at the time. It’s a real reminder of mortality when guys like him get struck down early
I remember seeing Marshall a few times when he played for Hampshire. Side on to the wicket, all you could see was his smooth run up and delivery, and then a split second later the batsman moving. And often the stumps clattering. He's the GOAT as far as I'm concerned.

Of bowlers I've seen (live or on TV), I'd agree. Marshall was simply incredible. That he stood out as clearly the best of the WI quicks is pretty much all the evidence you would need to put him at the very, very top. Pace, accuracy, movement, cunning, he had it all.


For me, Ambrose, McGrath & Waqar (for too few years sadly) would make up the rest of my 4 man pace attack.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by A5D5E5 »

booze wrote:
vh5150 wrote:Anderson is a fine pace bowler who averages about 12 with the Duke ball in England and about 40 anywhere else in the world. McGrath the greater bowler here. I’d rate Steyn the best pack bowler of the last 15 years and he’s the only one who has CPI stats anywhere near Sir Richard Hadlee who performed all around the world and especially liked performing in front of the Aussies and English.
40 really :shock:

I dont think Hadlee gets the recognition he deserves but that may be because he played from unfashionable NZ and wasnt as quick as a Marshall etc and played in an era before blanked worldwide cricket coverage.

But by christ he was an incredible cricketer. A rolls royce of a bowler who was mesmerising to watch and had everything in his armoury as a bowler. Even left arm offspin :lol:
I remember seeing him play for Notts in the early 80s. Fantastic player. Averaged about 15 for the season I think. I can't remember the exact quote, but Botham once said something like "Playing NZ is like facing the world select XI from one end and the local village 2nd XI from the other".
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Sandstorm »

Hadlee doesn’t get the recognition because he’s an arsehole that nobody liked.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

TokenSarriesFan wrote:
booze wrote:Compare that to Hadlee who had a better away record than in NZ

21.7 average and a strike rate of 48 in all test away from NZ!
Most of those where in England and Australia! Anderson's figures are bad from bowling on dustbowls in India and Sri Lanka.

Hadlee has a Ave of 44 in Sri Lanka when they where amateurs ffs.
Hadlee's average in Sri Lanka is 12.

He has an average of 44 in Pakistan, though he only played there 3 times and never toured again as he was sick as shit for the entire tour apparently.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Saint »

The Man Without Fear wrote:Mind you, there can't be many bowlers who've been f**ked about by coaches as much as Anderson was in the early part of his career.
As I said earlier - what the English coaches tried to do to him in the early days was nigh on short of criminal and it's taken a huge amount of his career to fully eradicate the damage. Today he bowls with the same action as when he was 18, but 5 odd years from when he was first selected was ruined by coaches trying to get him to bowl with a different action
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Moncreif »

Anderson:
Home = 368 wickets @ 23.76
Away = 174 wickets @ 34.15

McGrath:
Home = 289 @ 22.43
Away = 260 wickets @ 21.35

He's an excellent bowler in England...
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Moncreif »

Moncreif wrote:Anderson:
Home = 368 wickets @ 23.76
Away = 174 wickets @ 34.15

McGrath:
Home = 289 @ 22.43
Away = 260 wickets @ 21.35

He's an excellent bowler in England...
Hadlee:
Home: 201 @ 22.96
Away: 230 @ 21.72

Ambrose:
Home: 203 @ 21.19
Away: 202 @ 20.78

etc etc
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by fatcat »

Anderson: 564 wickets and counting. That's the only stat that people will remember.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by guy smiley »

Hypothetical for you all...
If I was naming a world XI to PLAY at Lords I'd name Jimmy Anderson
'no no no no you'd OPEN with X and Y'

'I forgot how good X and Y were'

'nah... Z and Q squared or it's no-one'

'here's my personal spreadsheet derived data set based on my own toilet paper readings that ranks players better then EVERY other recognised database'

'f**k that shit, I've got my own ideas'


Cricket threads... awesome for wildlife spotters now the steam trains are no longer in use.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by vh5150 »

33 bowlers have taken 300 or more test wickets

That is the cut off point when discussing top test bowlers of all time I think.

CPI index awards points for milestones. The stats below are well documented career stats

1 point for a 4 for
5 points for a 5 for
10WM is 10 points
15 wickets in a match is 30 points

Kumble, for example, took 10 wickets in an innings and is the only bowler on the list to get 10 CPI points for this feat alone.

Also, worth noting that of the 33 bowlers only Bob Willis, Brett Lee and Morne Morkel failed to take 10 wickets in a match.

The stats that are more documented are Ave and SR.

So if we look at all bowlers (spinners and quickies)

Ranking by Ave x SR (lowest is better) the bowers rank as follows:

Player SR x Ave

DW Steyn 950.9
MD Marshall 977.9
Waquar Younis 1022.5
AA Donald 1045.8
F Trueman 1065.6
GD McGrath 1123.1
R Hadlee 1132.3
C Ambrose 1144.0
Imran Khan 1224.9
DK Lillee 1243.8
Murali 1249.6
Wasim Akram 1289.7
SM Pollock 1335.8
Bob Willis 1345.7
R Ashwin 1366.5
CA Walsh 1412.6
MG Johnson 1451.2
SK Warne 1458.5
M Morkel 1474.3
JM Anderson 1497.7
M Nitini 1539.0
IT Botham 1616.0
B Lee 1642.2
S Broad 1686.0
H Herath 1703.5
Kapil Dev 1894.0
C Vaas 1952.3
A Kumble 1953.9
Z Khan 1989.6
N Lyon 2019.6
Harb Singh 2223.5
L Gibbs 2551.2
DL Vettori 2731.6

If you factor in CPI and Ave and SR the rankings look like this (highest is better):

Player Index

Murali 0.00016
R Hadlee 0.00015
DW Steyn 0.00011
MD Marshall 0.00010
DK Lillee 0.00010
R Ashwin 0.00010
Waquar Younis 0.00009
F Trueman 0.00009
AA Donald 0.00008
Imran Khan 0.00008
C Ambrose 0.00007
GD McGrath 0.00007
H Herath 0.00006
SK Warne 0.00006
Wasim Akram 0.00006
IT Botham 0.00004
A Kumble 0.00004
CA Walsh 0.00004
MG Johnson 0.00004
SM Pollock 0.00003
M Nitini 0.00003
JM Anderson 0.00003
Bob Willis 0.00003
Harb Singh 0.00003
S Broad 0.00002
Kapil Dev 0.00002
L Gibbs 0.00002
N Lyon 0.00002
B Lee 0.00002
M Morkel 0.00002
C Vaas 0.00002
DL Vettori 0.00001
Z Khan 0.00001

1. What this does suggest is that Fred Trueman is Englands greatest quickie.

An all-time English attack (assuming 3 seamers and a spinner) would be on SR X AVE:


a. F Trueman
b. Bob Willis
c. Anderson
Derek Underwood would be the spinner without debate Botham would make the team as the allrounder so he’d get a bowl as well ( still ranks right up there as one of Englands greatest quickies

If ranking on CPI index and SR X AVE the attack would be:

a. F Trueman
b. Botham

And a toss up between Willis and Anderson so you’d pick both and Botham’s your allrounder.

2. Dale Steyn (assuming he will comeback) is comfortably the greatest bowler of his generation. Fast, dangerous and will bowl you out in the shortest amount of time when compared to any other bowler ever….and another Saffa Alan Donald is not far behind him.

The Player Index indicates an all - time bowling line up (3 seamers and a spinner) would be:

Hadlee
Steyn
Marshall
Murali

SR x Ave indicates and all time bowling line up ( again 3 seamers and a spinner)

Steyn
Marshall
Younis
Murali

Steyn, Marshall and Murali are the only bowlers to make both lists

3. No matter how you cut the stats McGrath > Anderson … comfortably
4. Hadlee was certainly not underrated when playing. He was the test wicket world record holder. The first man past 400 test wickets. Was knighted whilst still an active player …. so cricketing royalty. He is a member of the ICC Hall of fame. Until recently an active administrator in NZ and World cricket. He is currently recovering from bowel cancer and surgery.

Questions ?
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Yes, what's this I hear about Lady Hadlee and Anita McNaught?
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by vh5150 »

Anita McNaughty .... wasn't that a rumor from 10 years ago ? Think she won a defamation case from a tabloid re that?
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by Tehui »

Well done to Anderson for achieving that wicket taking milestone. That takes some doing.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson... world's greatest fast bowler

Post by booze »

fatcat wrote:Anderson: 564 wickets and counting. That's the only stat that people will remember.
yep, and fair enough too, its an amazing achievement
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