Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

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nabanoba
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by nabanoba »

That Wasps team is pretty depressing. Especially considering they are the 3rd best in England. I live in London and have BT Sport so have followed the Premiership pretty closely. Below Saracens and Exeter the standard is awful and it really shouldn't be the case given the playing numbers in the UK.

Wasps have huge access to youth players, as does every other English club. The numbers to pick from for youth teams would be similar to Leinster. But Exeter seem to be the only team capable of bringing players through on a consistent basis. I have no idea how this happens given the playing population and huge talent available to English clubs. That Wasps pack will be man-shamed unless they show something very different to what they have recently.
sockwithaticket
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by sockwithaticket »

nabanoba wrote:That Wasps team is pretty depressing. Especially considering they are the 3rd best in England. I live in London and have BT Sport so have followed the Premiership pretty closely. Below Saracens and Exeter the standard is awful and it really shouldn't be the case given the playing numbers in the UK.

Wasps have huge access to youth players, as does every other English club. The numbers to pick from for youth teams would be similar to Leinster. But Exeter seem to be the only team capable of bringing players through on a consistent basis. I have no idea how this happens given the playing population and huge talent available to English clubs. That Wasps pack will be man-shamed unless they show something very different to what they have recently.
That's largely bollocks. Club vs. province for a start, depth of quality is bound to be different. Wasps academy is still a work in progress after near financial oblivion saw it scaled right back and the move to Coventry impacted catchments.

Re the pack's perceived weakness: We've got Mullan, McIntyre, Cooper-Wooley, Launchbury, Garrett (big academy lock), Rieder, Willis and Hughes injured or unavailable.

Last season 6 of those were starters or matchday 23 mainstays and likely would have been again.

More players =/= higher number of better players. We've bolstered our back row stocks with some lads from the championship. Somehow I don't think chucking Atkinson and Morris in against Leinster is going to improve matters much (no disrespect to those boys). Alternatively we could throw Wills' younger brother at the all Irish international Leinster back row.

Leinster are also freakish. Munster are the next strongest province and they've nowhere near the same depth of quality.
nabanoba
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by nabanoba »

sockwithaticket wrote:
nabanoba wrote:That Wasps team is pretty depressing. Especially considering they are the 3rd best in England. I live in London and have BT Sport so have followed the Premiership pretty closely. Below Saracens and Exeter the standard is awful and it really shouldn't be the case given the playing numbers in the UK.

Wasps have huge access to youth players, as does every other English club. The numbers to pick from for youth teams would be similar to Leinster. But Exeter seem to be the only team capable of bringing players through on a consistent basis. I have no idea how this happens given the playing population and huge talent available to English clubs. That Wasps pack will be man-shamed unless they show something very different to what they have recently.
That's largely bollocks. Club vs. province for a start, depth of quality is bound to be different. Wasps academy is still a work in progress after near financial oblivion saw it scaled right back and the move to Coventry impacted catchments.

Re the pack's perceived weakness: We've got Mullan, McIntyre, Cooper-Wooley, Launchbury, Garrett (big academy lock), Rieder, Willis and Hughes injured or unavailable.

Last season 6 of those were starters or matchday 23 mainstays and likely would have been again.

More players =/= higher number of better players. We've bolstered our back row stocks with some lads from the championship. Somehow I don't think chucking Atkinson and Morris in against Leinster is going to improve matters much (no disrespect to those boys). Alternatively we could throw Wills' younger brother at the all Irish international Leinster back row.

Leinster are also freakish. Munster are the next strongest province and they've nowhere near the same depth of quality.
Province versus club doesn't wash as the playing population in England is 10 times higher than Ireland. You have the talent in numbers so should be able to develop it. Understand that Wasps have a number of injuries and it's easier to get an Irish cap than an English one.

Munster have much lower playing numbers than Leinster hence worse depth.

Wasps may not be the best example due to changing catchments, but the talent at youth level in England is insane, it's a travesty that so many of the clubs perform so poorly.
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PornDog
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by PornDog »

I think you both make some decent points.

Leinster are freakish at the moment. Ulster have a much larger population base than Munster yet are also struggling to bring through sufficient talent.

However I don't think there can be any denying that many of the English clubs have an unhealthy imbalance between squad size and individual player wages.

Out of curiosity, what sort of squad size do Exeter have? Despite the obvious quality, they don't strike me as having anyone on the likes of Billy V or Dan Biggar money.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by sockwithaticket »

Again increased numbers =/= increased number of players with sufficient talent. Notwithstanding player numbers in England are over-inflated in official stats and from a quality p.o.v it doesn't matter if we've got an extra 100,000 blokes turning out in 3rd and 4th teams for low, low league clubs at amateur level. They're not doing much for the pro game except paying their subs to the RFU. If they're good enough, youth players tend to come through unless you get particular DoRs blocking their route at certain clubs (*cough* Tigers *cough*, though Murphy has stacked their bench with England U20s since taking over)

Most Prem sides do have a bunch of academy products in their teams, it's just that many of them are no longer youngsters. Wasps for example - Launchbury, Rowlands, Wade, Simpson, Daly, Bassett. Last year we'd have had two more in Willis and Cipriani, but one is out for ages and the other went elsewhere.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by sockwithaticket »

PornDog wrote:I think you both make some decent points.

Leinster are freakish at the moment. Ulster have a much larger population base than Munster yet are also struggling to bring through sufficient talent.

However I don't think there can be any denying that many of the English clubs have an unhealthy imbalance between squad size and individual player wages.

Out of curiosity, what sort of squad size do Exeter have? Despite the obvious quality, they don't strike me as having anyone on the likes of Billy V or Dan Biggar money.
They don't. They're astonishingly short, ostensibly, on star quality, but they're incredibly well coached and they have a lot of players who are probably just short of international quality. Exe also have a lot of academy products.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by PornDog »

But isn't that kind of a self fulfilling situation - there aren't enough players of professional quality because those players aren't getting the chance to develop in a professional environment?
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Chuckles1188 »

sockwithaticket wrote: More players =/= higher number of better players.
The Celts will never give up on this so I don't know why you bother trying to explain it to them. The starting position is "we're underdogs because we are"
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Raggs »

Chuckles1188 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote: More players =/= higher number of better players.
The Celts will never give up on this so I don't know why you bother trying to explain it to them. The starting position is "we're underdogs because we are"
As well as them having a smaller budget, no matter what sort of side they put out.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Mullet 2 »

sockwithaticket wrote:Again increased numbers =/= increased number of players with sufficient talent. Notwithstanding player numbers in England are over-inflated in official stats and from a quality p.o.v it doesn't matter if we've got an extra 100,000 blokes turning out in 3rd and 4th teams for low, low league clubs at amateur level. They're not doing much for the pro game except paying their subs to the RFU. If they're good enough, youth players tend to come through unless you get particular DoRs blocking their route at certain clubs (*cough* Tigers *cough*, though Murphy has stacked their bench with England U20s since taking over)

Most Prem sides do have a bunch of academy products in their teams, it's just that many of them are no longer youngsters. Wasps for example - Launchbury, Rowlands, Wade, Simpson, Daly, Bassett. Last year we'd have had two more in Willis and Cipriani, but one is out for ages and the other went elsewhere.

So DD was correct about your genetic inferiority to the mighty Celt.

Interesting
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Mullet 2 »

Chuckles1188 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote: More players =/= higher number of better players.
The Celts will never give up on this so I don't know why you bother trying to explain it to them. The starting position is "we're underdogs because we are"

You lads seem to suffer from the opposite problem.

Going into discussions with a trading bloc of 450 million people and thinking you're equals.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by PornDog »

sockwithaticket wrote:
PornDog wrote:I think you both make some decent points.

Leinster are freakish at the moment. Ulster have a much larger population base than Munster yet are also struggling to bring through sufficient talent.

However I don't think there can be any denying that many of the English clubs have an unhealthy imbalance between squad size and individual player wages.

Out of curiosity, what sort of squad size do Exeter have? Despite the obvious quality, they don't strike me as having anyone on the likes of Billy V or Dan Biggar money.
They don't. They're astonishingly short, ostensibly, on star quality, but they're incredibly well coached and they have a lot of players who are probably just short of international quality. Exe also have a lot of academy products.
:thumbup: They do seem to be the model club all right and I think that is exactly the reason why they are up there as one of the best clubs in Europe (without the huge budgets/deficits of most of the other contenders)

As an aside, while so many here and in the press last year after their back to back with Leinster were going back to the old whinge of "resting players", "pro 14 is shit which is why they won" type arguments - there was no such peep out of Baxter and his team. While not proof of anything itself granted, they don't strike me as the sort of team that externalise their shortcomings and instead address them head on. That's why I expect Munster to be on the wrong side of a serious hiding tomorrow (although granted, having Drunken at 9 isn't going to help them any)
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Chuckles1188 »

Mullet 2 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote: More players =/= higher number of better players.
The Celts will never give up on this so I don't know why you bother trying to explain it to them. The starting position is "we're underdogs because we are"

You lads seem to suffer from the opposite problem.

Going into discussions with a trading bloc of 450 million people and thinking you're equals.
This is a rugby thread
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Mullet 2 »

Chuckles1188 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote: More players =/= higher number of better players.
The Celts will never give up on this so I don't know why you bother trying to explain it to them. The starting position is "we're underdogs because we are"

You lads seem to suffer from the opposite problem.

Going into discussions with a trading bloc of 450 million people and thinking you're equals.
This is a rugby thread

It's my thread I'll do what I f ucking want.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by sockwithaticket »

PornDog wrote:But isn't that kind of a self fulfilling situation - there aren't enough players of professional quality because those players aren't getting the chance to develop in a professional environment?
Hmmm, not sure. Before you even get to a pro-level environment, i.e. a top academy, of which we have 12 or 14 (if you count a couple of clubs in the championship) affiliated with clubs, you have to be ticking requisite boxes in with skills and physiology. Once you get past that point we can debate whether they get opportunities to develop effectively, but I don't get the sense the academies flow over with squandered talent.

As you've identified, it's not as if outside of Leinster the other 3 provinces are chock to burst with talented youngsters coming through. That suggests to me that the coaching at Leinster is sufficiently superior that they feel they can trust the young guys not to bollocks it up when given an opportunity. It's also the luxury of a settled, successful side rather than an embattled one desperately looking for wins so the coaching and playing staff can justify their positions.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by sockwithaticket »

Chuckles1188 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote: More players =/= higher number of better players.
The Celts will never give up on this so I don't know why you bother trying to explain it to them.
It's been a pretty slow work day and I'm feeling charitable.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Chuckles1188 »

Mullet 2 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote: This is a rugby thread

It's my thread I'll do what I f ucking want.
Fair enough. I apologise for thinking you were a rugby man
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Mullet 2 »

There is no great mystery.

The Provinces are run for the benefit of Irish Rugby
Clubs need to make profit or keep their sugar Daddy happy.

This means the idea of throwing a young lad in and letting him makes mistakes doesn't happen. It has nothing to do with talent.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Mullet 2 »

Chuckles1188 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote: This is a rugby thread

It's my thread I'll do what I f ucking want.
Fair enough. I apologise for thinking you were a rugby man

After work I'm going to see Leinster A v Munster A at 5
After that I'm going to head up to the RDS for the main event
Have my own game tomorrow at 2 followed by a table quiz for the U17s tour to South Africa.

What are your plans Mr Webb Ellis?
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PornDog
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by PornDog »

sockwithaticket wrote:
PornDog wrote:But isn't that kind of a self fulfilling situation - there aren't enough players of professional quality because those players aren't getting the chance to develop in a professional environment?
Hmmm, not sure. Before you even get to a pro-level environment, i.e. a top academy, of which we have 12 or 14 (if you count a couple of clubs in the championship) affiliated with clubs, you have to be ticking requisite boxes in with skills and physiology. Once you get past that point we can debate whether they get opportunities to develop effectively, but I don't get the sense the academies flow over with squandered talent.

As you've identified, it's not as if outside of Leinster the other 3 provinces are chock to burst with talented youngsters coming through. That suggests to me that the coaching at Leinster is sufficiently superior that they feel they can trust the young guys not to bollocks it up when given an opportunity. It's also the luxury of a settled, successful side rather than an embattled one desperately looking for wins so the coaching and playing staff can justify their positions.
But at the same time - you look at Connacht's championship winning season - they had a number of injuries going into the business end of the season and had players I'd never heard of step into the breach and do a fine job. They were down to their fourth choice OH for a few weeks (Shane O'Leary, after their 3rd choice AJ McGinty got knackered - hadn't hear of either of them before hand).

As you say you need the coaching, and Pat Lam obviously had them very well drilled so everyone knew their role. What you don't need is someone like Matt O'Connor running the show.

Exeter (and Connacht to a lesser degree) show that you can compete on the pitch even if you're not competing off it.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Raggs »

PornDog wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
PornDog wrote:I think you both make some decent points.

Leinster are freakish at the moment. Ulster have a much larger population base than Munster yet are also struggling to bring through sufficient talent.

However I don't think there can be any denying that many of the English clubs have an unhealthy imbalance between squad size and individual player wages.

Out of curiosity, what sort of squad size do Exeter have? Despite the obvious quality, they don't strike me as having anyone on the likes of Billy V or Dan Biggar money.
They don't. They're astonishingly short, ostensibly, on star quality, but they're incredibly well coached and they have a lot of players who are probably just short of international quality. Exe also have a lot of academy products.
:thumbup: They do seem to be the model club all right and I think that is exactly the reason why they are up there as one of the best clubs in Europe (without the huge budgets/deficits of most of the other contenders)

As an aside, while so many here and in the press last year after their back to back with Leinster were going back to the old whinge of "resting players", "pro 14 is shit which is why they won" type arguments - there was no such peep out of Baxter and his team. While not proof of anything itself granted, they don't strike me as the sort of team that externalise their shortcomings and instead address them head on. That's why I expect Munster to be on the wrong side of a serious hiding tomorrow (although granted, having Drunken at 9 isn't going to help them any)
Exeter have been spending upto the cap since they were promoted. They've got plenty of cash and always have had. They run at a profit, but their CEO/head honcho type, is also their main sponsor, which seems like a rather easy way to just top up their coffers as a private owner, without actually doing it in name.

They've got a larger squad than normal, and have very good depth. They also have a huge academy area, and have brought players through well too.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Chuckles1188 »

Mullet 2 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote: This is a rugby thread

It's my thread I'll do what I f ucking want.
Fair enough. I apologise for thinking you were a rugby man

After work I'm going to see Leinster A v Munster A at 5
After that I'm going to head up to the RDS for the main event
Have my own game tomorrow at 2 followed by a table quiz for the U17s tour to South Africa.

What are your plans Mr Webb Ellis?
I've got a meeting with World Rugby to ban all Irish teams from the European Champions Cup. Think they're going to go for it
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Mullet 2 »

Fair enough. I apologise for thinking you were a rugby man
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by CM11 »

Chuckles1188 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote: More players =/= higher number of better players.
The Celts will never give up on this so I don't know why you bother trying to explain it to them. The starting position is "we're underdogs because we are"
Yep, it's why we have a rake of u20s titles too.

Oh.

England always will and always have had more depth. That's not in question.

Whether that depth equates to 8 extra teams is a different argument. However, I do think that the attitude of most Premiership coaches has been to abandon players quickly if they don't perform in their early 20s while plugging the gap with a signing. I do understand the pressures are different but that's not much help to the abandoned player. We saw it with MOC when he came over and immediately looked for 6+ signings (which he didn't get). Fast forward a few years and we're back at the top of the pile mostly with players that were already there when MOC joined.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by nabanoba »

Raggs wrote:
PornDog wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
PornDog wrote:I think you both make some decent points.

Leinster are freakish at the moment. Ulster have a much larger population base than Munster yet are also struggling to bring through sufficient talent.

However I don't think there can be any denying that many of the English clubs have an unhealthy imbalance between squad size and individual player wages.

Out of curiosity, what sort of squad size do Exeter have? Despite the obvious quality, they don't strike me as having anyone on the likes of Billy V or Dan Biggar money.
They don't. They're astonishingly short, ostensibly, on star quality, but they're incredibly well coached and they have a lot of players who are probably just short of international quality. Exe also have a lot of academy products.
:thumbup: They do seem to be the model club all right and I think that is exactly the reason why they are up there as one of the best clubs in Europe (without the huge budgets/deficits of most of the other contenders)

As an aside, while so many here and in the press last year after their back to back with Leinster were going back to the old whinge of "resting players", "pro 14 is shit which is why they won" type arguments - there was no such peep out of Baxter and his team. While not proof of anything itself granted, they don't strike me as the sort of team that externalise their shortcomings and instead address them head on. That's why I expect Munster to be on the wrong side of a serious hiding tomorrow (although granted, having Drunken at 9 isn't going to help them any)
Exeter have been spending upto the cap since they were promoted. They've got plenty of cash and always have had. They run at a profit, but their CEO/head honcho type, is also their main sponsor, which seems like a rather easy way to just top up their coffers as a private owner, without actually doing it in name.

They've got a larger squad than normal, and have very good depth. They also have a huge academy area, and have brought players through well too.
Interesting that there's a lot of rotation at Exeter this season. maybe trying to learn from the Celtic model and keep players fresh and as injury free as possible. I suppose it helps that there is little competition in the Premiership at the moment, which makes it akin to the pro 14 in many ways - the top teams know they can rest players and till get results.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Chuckles1188 »

Mullet 2 wrote:Fair enough. I apologise for thinking you were a rugby man
Don't bullshit me, you never did
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Chuckles1188 »

nabanoba wrote:I suppose it helps that there is little competition in the Premiership at the moment, which makes it akin to the pro 14 in many ways - the top teams know they can rest players and till get results.
Helps almost as much as you not having a fucking scooby what you're talking about
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Dobbin »

Maybe we should just nominate a team, chuck as many England players at it as possible, do really well some years and then claim that our system's great.


Unless we call the team England, of course, and then it won't work
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by nabanoba »

Chuckles1188 wrote:
nabanoba wrote:I suppose it helps that there is little competition in the Premiership at the moment, which makes it akin to the pro 14 in many ways - the top teams know they can rest players and till get results.
Helps almost as much as you not having a fucking scooby what you're talking about
:lol: The truth hurts.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by camroc1 »

My understandung is that several of the English Premiership teams eg Newcastle, Sale and LI have always had thriving u/a and Academy sections. Their big problem is poaching, ie richer clubs being able to offer good Academy youngstersfrom not so rich clubs much better first time pro contracts. There is also history. Historically Wasps were a tiny club , whilst Quins relied on posh public school internationals looking for a soft city job, so neither even attempted to develope their own players seriously.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Luckycharmer »

Chuckles1188 wrote:
nabanoba wrote:I suppose it helps that there is little competition in the Premiership at the moment, which makes it akin to the pro 14 in many ways - the top teams know they can rest players and till get results.
Helps almost as much as you not having a fucking scooby what you're talking about
Bath rested 13 players against Sarries the other week x(

England have dominated the Under 20's WC in recent years so they obviously have a hell of a lot more talent than we have. Wales and France also beat us a lot more often than we beat them at that level. What is happening to all of these players?
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Luckycharmer »

Dobbin wrote:Maybe we should just nominate a team, chuck as many England players at it as possible, do really well some years and then claim that our system's great.


Unless we call the team England, of course, and then it won't work
Except 90% of Leinsters players are from Leinster- what team in the Premiership has say over 50% of its starting team from the local area?
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Nolanator »

sockwithaticket wrote:If they're good enough, youth players tend to come through unless you get particular DoRs blocking their route at certain clubs (*cough* Tigers *cough*, though Murphy has stacked their bench with England U20s since taking over)
Are you suggesting that MOC doesn't back or develop young player?? :shock:
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by sockwithaticket »

Nolanator wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:If they're good enough, youth players tend to come through unless you get particular DoRs blocking their route at certain clubs (*cough* Tigers *cough*, though Murphy has stacked their bench with England U20s since taking over)
Are you suggesting that MOC doesn't back or develop young player?? :shock:
Perish the thought

it's a charge that could be levelled at Cockerill too tbf
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by sockwithaticket »

Luckycharmer wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
nabanoba wrote:I suppose it helps that there is little competition in the Premiership at the moment, which makes it akin to the pro 14 in many ways - the top teams know they can rest players and till get results.
Helps almost as much as you not having a fucking scooby what you're talking about
Bath rested 13 players against Sarries the other week x(

England have dominated the Under 20's WC in recent years so they obviously have a hell of a lot more talent than we have. Wales and France also beat us a lot more often than we beat them at that level. What is happening to all of these players?
Bath also got soundly beaten and criticised widely for what was clearly more than a bit of squad rotation.
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Dobbin »

Luckycharmer wrote:
Dobbin wrote:Maybe we should just nominate a team, chuck as many England players at it as possible, do really well some years and then claim that our system's great.


Unless we call the team England, of course, and then it won't work
Except 90% of Leinsters players are from Leinster- what team in the Premiership has say over 50% of its starting team from the local area?
I daresay if we had a single team representing the south east, it would be chock full of players from the south east.

Ditto for any "region".
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lorcanoworms
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by lorcanoworms »

I don't think Exeter are all that good, not in Europe at any rate.
bimboman
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by bimboman »

Mullet 2 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote: More players =/= higher number of better players.
The Celts will never give up on this so I don't know why you bother trying to explain it to them. The starting position is "we're underdogs because we are"

You lads seem to suffer from the opposite problem.

Going into discussions with a trading bloc of 450 million people and thinking you're equals.

But the rugbys back Mullet , can't you leave match threads alone?
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Raggs
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by Raggs »

lorcanoworms wrote:I don't think Exeter are all that good, not in Europe at any rate.
They're a sort of gatekeeper. They generally produce very consistent good performances, tough to beat, but they aren't a truly top tier team. I'd expect Saracens, Leinster, Munster, Scarlets and a number of French sides to beat them regularly.
sockwithaticket
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Re: Heineken European Champions Cup R1: Leinster v Wasps

Post by sockwithaticket »

lorcanoworms wrote:I don't think Exeter are all that good, not in Europe at any rate.
Compared to established European powerhouses, no. Their relative newness to the competition has meant they've usually had bloody hard groups though and they've been improving year on year.
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