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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:14 pm 
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Someone can tell me when the results will begin? I am mainly interested in Germany and UK


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:15 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
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Agreed, but at it's base democracy is a numbers game. For example assuming that the main reason for Brexit was immigration and free movement. Progressives have every right and should challenge the view that this is bad for the country. However if more voters think that it is bad for the country despite the best efforts to convince them otherwise the politicians can either accept and deal with the voters concerns or the voters will elect someone who will. This does not mean democracy is broken. Progressives seem to think that voters are not allowed to disagree with them.

Democracy is not about who is right. It is about who can get the most votes. That is all that matters when push comes to shove.


Sorry mate, but this "Progressives seem to think that voters are not allowed to disagree with them" is a narrative of your creation (and many others obviously).

I could just as easily point out - with some justification - that many Brexiteers call everyone who doesn't agree with them "traitors". And as we are discussing, also shut down remainer argumemts with accusations of "you're just a metropolitan liberal who doesn't get it"

So perhaps we should just accept we are all allowed to challenge other people in a democracy.

Which is why (as someone from a northern Brexity area) I don't feel inclined to be shut down by well-off Brexiteers playing the real people vs elites game.



Make the argument and win it at the ballot box would be my advice.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:15 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
For no other reason rather than shits and giggles, anyone want to predict percentages tonight (not going to even attempt seats).

I'll go with the following and won't attempt to include UKIP, CUK, Plaid, SNP etc

Brexit Party 33%
Lib Dem 20%
Labour 16%
Green 11%
Conservative 9%

BXP 40+%
Lib Dem and Greens in 20%+
The rest.

Labour and Conservatives more importantly get a massive kicking.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:16 pm 
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Lemoentjie wrote:
Someone can tell me when the results will begin? I am mainly interested in Germany and UK

It’s on BBC and Sky News. Coverage 10pm UK time is when voting ends across Europe and counting begins.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:16 pm 
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What we should not be doing is crying that democracy is broken just because we don't agree with how the voters voted.


What's your definition of democracy though? I think it has been trashed.

Whether they believed it or not, millions of people were told Brexit was easy, we held all the cards and once decided we'd get what we want and leave. Unsurprisingly when that didn't happen people are pissed off.

The 48% were basically told they don't matter. Unsurprisingly people are pissed off.

Very well known people have spent 3 years saying that politicians, and more worryingly the likes of judges civil servants are traitors.

The referendum was characterised by lies, breaking electoral law, misuse of data and likely foreign interference.

The media is more partisan than ever.

And unfortunately the population is utterly divided and mistrusting of each other.

But your way of telling this story is that it's just a few remainers pissed off because they are so intolerant of other opinions?

I think it will take many years to recover.


Last edited by SamShark on Sun May 26, 2019 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:17 pm 
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The media is definitely more partisan than ever.

Well made. :thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:20 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Quote:
What we should not be doing is crying that democracy is broken just because we don't agree with how the voters voted.


What's your definition of democracy though? I think it has been trashed.

Whether they believed it or not, millions of people were told Brexit was easy, we held all the cards and once decided we'd get what we want and leave. Unsurprisingly when that didn't happen people are pissed off.

The 48% were basically told they don't matter. Unsurprisingly people are pissed off.

Very well known people have spent 3 years saying that politicians, and more worryingly the likes of judges civil servants are traitors.

The referendum was characterised by lies, breaking electoral law, misuse of data and likely foreign interference.

The media is more partisan than ever.

And unfortunately the population is utterly divided and mistrusting of each other.

But your was of telling this story is that it's just a few remainers pissed off because they are so intolerant of other opinions?

I think it will take many years to recover.




You’re genuinely being driven mad by this leaving a trade block aren’t you. You seem to willingly ignore remain lost.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:21 pm 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
Lemoentjie wrote:
Someone can tell me when the results will begin? I am mainly interested in Germany and UK

It’s on BBC and Sky News. Coverage 10pm UK time is when voting ends across Europe and counting begins.


Image


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:22 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Quote:
What we should not be doing is crying that democracy is broken just because we don't agree with how the voters voted.


What's your definition of democracy though? I think it has been trashed.

Whether they believed it or not, millions of people were told Brexit was easy, we held all the cards and once decided we'd get what we want and leave. Unsurprisingly when that didn't happen people are pissed off.

The 48% were basically told they don't matter. Unsurprisingly people are pissed off.

Very well known people have spent 3 years saying that politicians, and more worryingly the likes of judges civil servants are traitors.

The referendum was characterised by lies, breaking electoral law, misuse of data and likely foreign interference.

The media is more partisan than ever.

And unfortunately the population is utterly divided and mistrusting of each other.

But your was of telling this story is that it's just a few remainers pissed off because they are so intolerant of other opinions?

I think it will take many years to recover.




You’re genuinely being driven mad by this leaving a trade block aren’t you. You seem to willingly ignore remain lost.


Have you got a relevant point to make or are you still just wittering about my elitest remoaner status?


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:23 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
bimboman wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Quote:
What we should not be doing is crying that democracy is broken just because we don't agree with how the voters voted.


What's your definition of democracy though? I think it has been trashed.

Whether they believed it or not, millions of people were told Brexit was easy, we held all the cards and once decided we'd get what we want and leave. Unsurprisingly when that didn't happen people are pissed off.

The 48% were basically told they don't matter. Unsurprisingly people are pissed off.

Very well known people have spent 3 years saying that politicians, and more worryingly the likes of judges civil servants are traitors.

The referendum was characterised by lies, breaking electoral law, misuse of data and likely foreign interference.

The media is more partisan than ever.

And unfortunately the population is utterly divided and mistrusting of each other.

But your was of telling this story is that it's just a few remainers pissed off because they are so intolerant of other opinions?

I think it will take many years to recover.




You’re genuinely being driven mad by this leaving a trade block aren’t you. You seem to willingly ignore remain lost.


Have you got a relevant point to make or are you still just wittering about my elitest remoaner status?




Sorry relevant points like the ones you’ve invented above ?


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:23 pm 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
For no other reason rather than shits and giggles, anyone want to predict percentages tonight (not going to even attempt seats).

I'll go with the following and won't attempt to include UKIP, CUK, Plaid, SNP etc

Brexit Party 33%
Lib Dem 20%
Labour 16%
Green 11%
Conservative 9%

BXP 40+%
Lib Dem and Greens in 20%+
The rest.

Labour and Conservatives more importantly get a massive kicking.


Cant see Greens going into the 20s or Labour bombing that hard.

It would be amusing if it happened.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:24 pm 
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Lemoentjie wrote:
Someone can tell me when the results will begin? I am mainly interested in Germany and UK

10 pm uk time


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:26 pm 
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Sorry relevant points like the ones you’ve invented above ?


Have you got any relevant points? Anything you want to challenge.

If you just trot out your usual one liners or "ask questions" I have no way to tell what you are so upset about in relation to the post?


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:27 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
For no other reason rather than shits and giggles, anyone want to predict percentages tonight (not going to even attempt seats).

I'll go with the following and won't attempt to include UKIP, CUK, Plaid, SNP etc

Brexit Party 33%
Lib Dem 20%
Labour 16%
Green 11%
Conservative 9%

BXP 40+%
Lib Dem and Greens in 20%+
The rest.

Labour and Conservatives more importantly get a massive kicking.


Cant see Greens going into the 20s or Labour bombing that hard.

It would be amusing if it happened.

I just don’t know where either major party go from here Sam.

The whole thing has been party exercises, no decision making either way.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:29 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Quote:
What we should not be doing is crying that democracy is broken just because we don't agree with how the voters voted.


What's your definition of democracy though? I think it has been trashed.

Whether they believed it or not, millions of people were told Brexit was easy, we held all the cards and once decided we'd get what we want and leave. Unsurprisingly when that didn't happen people are pissed off.

The 48% were basically told they don't matter. Unsurprisingly people are pissed off.

Very well known people have spent 3 years saying that politicians, and more worryingly the likes of judges civil servants are traitors.

The referendum was characterised by lies, breaking electoral law, misuse of data and likely foreign interference.

The media is more partisan than ever.

And unfortunately the population is utterly divided and mistrusting of each other.

But your way of telling this story is that it's just a few remainers pissed off because they are so intolerant of other opinions?

I think it will take many years to recover.


Whether what you have said is true or not is irrelevant if the majority of voters don't accept that it is true.

Progressives can to a person believe that the above is 100% true but if the majority of voters don't accept it then it doesn't matter.

All that matters is the votes.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:30 pm 
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I would welcome a decline in the two main parties - they deserve it.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:31 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
I would welcome a decline in the two main parties - they deserve it.


Agreed I have far more respect for the Lib Dems than for either of the main 2 parties. At least they have a clear and consistent view (regardless of whether I agree with it).


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:32 pm 
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mdaclarke wrote:
SamShark wrote:
I would welcome a decline in the two main parties - they deserve it.


Agreed I have far more respect for the Lib Dems than for either of the main 2 parties. At least they have a clear and consistent view (regardless of whether I agree with it).

Spot on.

I bet all of us have heard the saying “not voting Tory or labour is a wasted vote.”

fudge em.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:33 pm 
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mdaclarke wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Quote:
What we should not be doing is crying that democracy is broken just because we don't agree with how the voters voted.


What's your definition of democracy though? I think it has been trashed.

Whether they believed it or not, millions of people were told Brexit was easy, we held all the cards and once decided we'd get what we want and leave. Unsurprisingly when that didn't happen people are pissed off.

The 48% were basically told they don't matter. Unsurprisingly people are pissed off.

Very well known people have spent 3 years saying that politicians, and more worryingly the likes of judges civil servants are traitors.

The referendum was characterised by lies, breaking electoral law, misuse of data and likely foreign interference.

The media is more partisan than ever.

And unfortunately the population is utterly divided and mistrusting of each other.

But your way of telling this story is that it's just a few remainers pissed off because they are so intolerant of other opinions?

I think it will take many years to recover.


Whether what you have said is true or not is irrelevant if the majority of voters don't accept that it is true.

Progressives can to a person believe that the above is 100% true but if the majority of voters don't accept it then it doesn't matter.

All that matters is the votes.


I don't think I'm making a "progressive" point here.

Do you think "non progressives" - whatever that would mean - think democracy is in good nick/have high trust in institutions?

I think that's quite a niche view.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:38 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Quote:
Sorry relevant points like the ones you’ve invented above ?


Have you got any relevant points? Anything you want to challenge.

If you just trot out your usual one liners or "ask questions" I have no way to tell what you are so upset about in relation to the post?



You’ve extrapolated , exaggerated , and made stuff up. What’s the point in arguing with that.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:39 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
I would welcome a decline in the two main parties - they deserve it.

Agreed, however Nick Clegg saw to the decline of the Lib Dems with his capitulation a few years ago and now they may have been forgiven for the cnuts treachery.
I hope the political landscape changes


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:40 pm 
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That is the lie that I don't understand some in the UK keep peddling.

The Leave campaign lied repeatedly and knowlingly: yes
The Leave campaign funding was shady as fùck: yes
The Leaving process is a nightmare and we are getting fùcked: yes, yes we are
In light of all this the vote must be respected: YEEEEEEESSSSSS

It is crazed. Tbf I remember reading that the Brits ruling class had a stupid fatalism brought about by lessons of empire and afternoons having custard funneled up their bums by the head boys. Turns out he was right.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:40 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Quote:
Sorry relevant points like the ones you’ve invented above ?


Have you got any relevant points? Anything you want to challenge.

If you just trot out your usual one liners or "ask questions" I have no way to tell what you are so upset about in relation to the post?



You’ve extrapolated , exaggerated , and made stuff up. What’s the point in arguing with that.


You've repeatedly argued, with no actual content or context, to prove that there's no point in arguing?

It's one approach I guess.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:42 pm 
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EverReady wrote:
That is the lie that I don't understand some in the UK keep peddling.

The Leave campaign lied repeatedly and knowlingly: yes
The Leave campaign funding was shady as fùck: yes
The Leaving process is a nightmare and we are getting fùcked: yes, yes we are
In light of all this the vote must be respected: YEEEEEEESSSSSS

It is crazed. Tbf I remember reading that the Brits ruling class had a stupid fatalism brought about by lessons of empire and afternoons having custard funneled up their bums by the head boys. Turns out he was right.

Respected to the point of f**king no deal and economic crisis.
It's lunacy.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:44 pm 
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EverReady wrote:
That is the lie that I don't understand some in the UK keep peddling.

The Leave campaign lied repeatedly and knowlingly: yes
The Leave campaign funding was shady as fùck: yes
The Leaving process is a nightmare and we are getting fùcked: yes, yes we are
In light of all this the vote must be respected: YEEEEEEESSSSSS

It is crazed. Tbf I remember reading that the Brits ruling class had a stupid fatalism brought about by lessons of empire and afternoons having custard funneled up their bums by the head boys. Turns out he was right.


It doesn't matter whether or not you consider that the vote should be respected so long as the majority of voters think it should be respected.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:46 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
mdaclarke wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Quote:
What we should not be doing is crying that democracy is broken just because we don't agree with how the voters voted.


What's your definition of democracy though? I think it has been trashed.

Whether they believed it or not, millions of people were told Brexit was easy, we held all the cards and once decided we'd get what we want and leave. Unsurprisingly when that didn't happen people are pissed off.

The 48% were basically told they don't matter. Unsurprisingly people are pissed off.

Very well known people have spent 3 years saying that politicians, and more worryingly the likes of judges civil servants are traitors.

The referendum was characterised by lies, breaking electoral law, misuse of data and likely foreign interference.

The media is more partisan than ever.

And unfortunately the population is utterly divided and mistrusting of each other.

But your way of telling this story is that it's just a few remainers pissed off because they are so intolerant of other opinions?

I think it will take many years to recover.


Whether what you have said is true or not is irrelevant if the majority of voters don't accept that it is true.

Progressives can to a person believe that the above is 100% true but if the majority of voters don't accept it then it doesn't matter.

All that matters is the votes.


I don't think I'm making a "progressive" point here.

Do you think "non progressives" - whatever that would mean - think democracy is in good nick/have high trust in institutions?

I think that's quite a niche view.


No but they trust Farage. That is whole point of democracy. If they don't trust the institutions they can vote for someone they do trust


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:47 pm 
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No but they trust Farage. That is whole point of democracy. If they don't trust the institutions they can vote for someone they do trus


Do you trust Farage?

It's going to be quite a big question over the coming months, particularly if he gets a hell of a lot of votes tonight.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:48 pm 
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The point I have been trying to make it that progressives/remainers whatever you want to call the block of people/politicians appear to have forgotten that being right is not what is important it is being liked and getting the most votes that is what is important.

The progressives/remainers seem to have concentrated on the former whilst forgetting the latter.


Last edited by mdaclarke on Sun May 26, 2019 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:49 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Quote:
No but they trust Farage. That is whole point of democracy. If they don't trust the institutions they can vote for someone they do trus


Do you trust Farage?

It's going to be quite a big question over the coming months, particularly if he gets a hell of a lot of votes tonight.


I trust him more than Corbyn and May and Cable.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:51 pm 
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mdaclarke wrote:
The point I have been trying to make it that progressives/remainers whatever you want to call the block of people/politicians appear to have forgotten that being right is not what is important it is being liked and getting the most votes that is what is important.

The progressives/remainers seem to have concentrated on the former whilst forgetting the latter.


Well, fine, but advocating populism will surely end in tears in the long run.

When you take power you have to be right, particularly with foreign affairs.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:53 pm 
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mdaclarke wrote:
EverReady wrote:
That is the lie that I don't understand some in the UK keep peddling.

The Leave campaign lied repeatedly and knowlingly: yes
The Leave campaign funding was shady as fùck: yes
The Leaving process is a nightmare and we are getting fùcked: yes, yes we are
In light of all this the vote must be respected: YEEEEEEESSSSSS

It is crazed. Tbf I remember reading that the Brits ruling class had a stupid fatalism brought about by lessons of empire and afternoons having custard funneled up their bums by the head boys. Turns out he was right.


It doesn't matter whether or not you consider that the vote should be respected so long as the majority of voters think it should be respected.

We didn’t know all the above at the time. The way to find out if a majority of voters think the original vote should be respected in the light of the above is of course to consult them.

Where Farage and the Lib Dem’s may be united is in the area of PR. Having a rubbish version of it presented as a referendum question may have been the Lib Dem’s biggest mistake. The DUP leveraging has been far more effective.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:54 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Quote:
No but they trust Farage. That is whole point of democracy. If they don't trust the institutions they can vote for someone they do trus


Do you trust Farage?

It's going to be quite a big question over the coming months, particularly if he gets a hell of a lot of votes tonight.



He’s a single issue politician, if we’d left the union on the 29th of March he wouldn’t be around.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:56 pm 
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shereblue wrote:
mdaclarke wrote:
EverReady wrote:
That is the lie that I don't understand some in the UK keep peddling.

The Leave campaign lied repeatedly and knowlingly: yes
The Leave campaign funding was shady as fùck: yes
The Leaving process is a nightmare and we are getting fùcked: yes, yes we are
In light of all this the vote must be respected: YEEEEEEESSSSSS

It is crazed. Tbf I remember reading that the Brits ruling class had a stupid fatalism brought about by lessons of empire and afternoons having custard funneled up their bums by the head boys. Turns out he was right.


It doesn't matter whether or not you consider that the vote should be respected so long as the majority of voters think it should be respected.

We didn’t know all the above at the time. The way to find out if a majority of voters think the original vote should be respected in the light of the above is of course to consult them.

Where Farage and the Lib Dem’s may be united is in the area of PR. Having a rubbish version of it presented as a referendum question may have been the Lib Dem’s biggest mistake. The DUP leveraging has been far more effective.



We didn’t know our politicians would basically refuse to enact the result, that’s not a reason to say “we didn’t know what would happen” it’s a shit point.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:56 pm 
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There are certain things that become legitimised over time.

Once just mentioning "referendum" was frowned upon, now it's mainsream.

"Revoke" became something that could be debated.

More and more people are raising the idea of a "no deal vs remain" referendum.

That would be f**king scary, but the more people talk about it the more it becomes possible.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:57 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
There are certain things that become legitimised over time.

Once just mentioning "referendum" was frowned upon, now it's mainsream.

"Revoke" became something that could be debated.

More and more people are raising the idea of a "no deal vs remain" referendum.

That would be f**king scary, but the more people talk about it the more it becomes possible.



If there can’t be a deal struck and everyone is sure that people voted for a deal why not ask that question.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:58 pm 
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EverReady wrote:
That is the lie that I don't understand some in the UK keep peddling.

The Leave campaign lied repeatedly and knowlingly: yes
The Leave campaign funding was shady as fùck: yes
The Leaving process is a nightmare and we are getting fùcked: yes, yes we are
In light of all this the vote must be respected: YEEEEEEESSSSSS

It is crazed. Tbf I remember reading that the Brits ruling class had a stupid fatalism brought about by lessons of empire and afternoons having custard funneled up their bums by the head boys. Turns out he was right.

Politicians lie all the time. If our elections were going to be voided because people told lies or had no way or intention of fulfilling their promises we would be having elections every day. I'm sure there were many people who voted remain purely because they were scared into doing so by the lies told by the PM the Chancellor and the governor of the BoE about what would happen immediately after a leave vote. Remember these were the people who were in power and could actually act on their promises.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:59 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
SamShark wrote:
There are certain things that become legitimised over time.

Once just mentioning "referendum" was frowned upon, now it's mainsream.

"Revoke" became something that could be debated.

More and more people are raising the idea of a "no deal vs remain" referendum.

That would be f**king scary, but the more people talk about it the more it becomes possible.



If there can’t be a deal struck and everyone is sure that people voted for a deal why not ask that question.


Why not indeed - it would be a tough job to explain what no deal means though. It's a hard date for exit with no further debate, but what is permitted in the run up to the date and then in the aftermath.

Does it have to be permanent WTO? Obviously not, but what is it?


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 6:01 pm 
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shereblue wrote:
mdaclarke wrote:
EverReady wrote:
That is the lie that I don't understand some in the UK keep peddling.

The Leave campaign lied repeatedly and knowlingly: yes
The Leave campaign funding was shady as fùck: yes
The Leaving process is a nightmare and we are getting fùcked: yes, yes we are
In light of all this the vote must be respected: YEEEEEEESSSSSS

It is crazed. Tbf I remember reading that the Brits ruling class had a stupid fatalism brought about by lessons of empire and afternoons having custard funneled up their bums by the head boys. Turns out he was right.


It doesn't matter whether or not you consider that the vote should be respected so long as the majority of voters think it should be respected.

We didn’t know all the above at the time. The way to find out if a majority of voters think the original vote should be respected in the light of the above is of course to consult them.

Where Farage and the Lib Dem’s may be united is in the area of PR. Having a rubbish version of it presented as a referendum question may have been the Lib Dem’s biggest mistake. The DUP leveraging has been far more effective.


That's because the DUP just came looking fo rmoney. The Tories don't give a shit about funnelling money to the DUP; it's not like it's their money !

PR on the other hand threatened the duopoly that the Tories, & Labour have rigged for themselves; & that the Tories would feel.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 6:01 pm 
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Anonymous. wrote:
EverReady wrote:
That is the lie that I don't understand some in the UK keep peddling.

The Leave campaign lied repeatedly and knowlingly: yes
The Leave campaign funding was shady as fùck: yes
The Leaving process is a nightmare and we are getting fùcked: yes, yes we are
In light of all this the vote must be respected: YEEEEEEESSSSSS

It is crazed. Tbf I remember reading that the Brits ruling class had a stupid fatalism brought about by lessons of empire and afternoons having custard funneled up their bums by the head boys. Turns out he was right.

Politicians lie all the time. If our elections were going to be voided because people told lies or had no way or intention of fulfilling their promises we would be having elections every day. I'm sure there were many people who voted remain purely because they were scared into doing so by the lies told by the PM the Chancellor and the governor of the BoE about what would happen immediately after a leave vote. Remember these were the people who were in power and could actually act on their promises.


You aren't voiding an election. You are very bad at referendums


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 750
Anonymous. wrote:
EverReady wrote:
That is the lie that I don't understand some in the UK keep peddling.

The Leave campaign lied repeatedly and knowlingly: yes
The Leave campaign funding was shady as fùck: yes
The Leaving process is a nightmare and we are getting fùcked: yes, yes we are
In light of all this the vote must be respected: YEEEEEEESSSSSS

It is crazed. Tbf I remember reading that the Brits ruling class had a stupid fatalism brought about by lessons of empire and afternoons having custard funneled up their bums by the head boys. Turns out he was right.

Politicians lie all the time. If our elections were going to be voided because people told lies or had no way or intention of fulfilling their promises we would be having elections every day. I'm sure there were many people who voted remain purely because they were scared into doing so by the lies told by the PM the Chancellor and the governor of the BoE about what would happen immediately after a leave vote. Remember these were the people who were in power and could actually act on their promises.


Yep. It's not like the fibs were unchallenged during the referendum campaign either. People still voted regardless.


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