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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:08 am 
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There are a number of reasons why a ref may be reluctant to make the call on this and think it is the spectators that are getting it wrong more often than not.

When the ball has actually exited the set piece is the biggest issue for those that people think "moved early". By the time you see the pass on its way and turn to the defensive line, yes they are well ahead. So they should be. GPS tracking of players will not determine when the ball has actually cleared a ruck so is of no use whatsoever.

Then there is the question for players that haven't ever quite made it back tot he offside line. Because this is set off the hindmost foot, this is a moving target also. If they are going to strictly enforce this, I would want the refs to also clamp down on the rolling forward or movement on their hands and knees of the tackled player. What if you are onside but then one of your players decided to contest the breakdown and joins at the back? Do you expect the players to take a step back? They probably should but few refs are going to make them. If they have cleared them initially and the defensive line has not moved, they let it slide. Again, no real issue with this.

It isn't as simple as issuing a directive to the AR's (who already call this into the ref anyway). They may have a better view of the line but the ref has a better view of when the ball clear the ruck.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:11 am 
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Hong Kong wrote:
not sure what clarification or interpretation WR can give to help. The ARs are there as their name suggests to assist the ref. The ref is in charge of the game and, as Enz referred to earlier, he will brief the ARs on exactly what he wants and I'm pretty confident, most refs will only ask for the clear and obvious. Which takes us back to my original point - I'm not convinced the game is such a perilous state and that so many C&O offsides are being missed


I think the refs should have a consistent role in the game. It’s very hard for a ref to both police a ruck whilst in the other direction check defenders remain onside.

The ARs are massively under utilised to help with accuracy of refereeing. In the shape of the modern game with rush defenses creating those inches, it deserves better respect and attention to what we are getting.

It saddens me that chavball refs are actually better on this, where their touchies are calling offsides.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:21 am 
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Jeff the Bear wrote:
I made the point on another thread t'other day that the only way we're ever going to reasonably fix this is by linking the GPS trackers they've all got in the back of their jersey's to a computer system that tracks positions relative to ruck positions.

Having said that, players are so bloody quick these days, and are primed for rush defences, that I'd bet if you did the proper analysis on all the "He was definitely offside" situations, most would probably turn out to be marginal (which is why I also suggested that we ought to move the offside line back 1 metre as well).


Those GPS trackers are in no way accurate enough to do this. You are an engineer surely you know this?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:33 am 
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How can ARs police an offside line when only the ref can decide something as subjective as when the ruck has ended?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:09 am 
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The non policing of the offside line has the potential to be an unmitigated disaster in a World Cup year.

This new found line speed is being driven by players being serially offside.

England have been the worst offenders and against Wales it was shockingly bad.

Why do you think Wales hAd to bring out pick n go? Because it was a waste of time spinning it to the backs

They have to sort it out otherwise we will be going back to score lines of 9-6 and scoring in multiples of 3


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:56 am 
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Hong Kong wrote:
grouch wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
Quote:
The protocols between AR's & Refs are not clearly defined or laid out.


I bet they are in the pre-game meetings. Touch judges couldn't adjudicate that back in my day (but this subject was always brought up at half time if they saw a problem) but they can now and I bet it it is well covered.


My point is they are not formal , ie written.

There are plenty of examples where AR's call the offside line but there are also just as many if not more when it is apparent they do not.

The match referee decides, not the rule book.

the law book is already abused enough as being too difficult, too complex, too confusing, blah blah blah... WTF would you want to add to that 'misery' by including a section on what the ARs should do?


I'm breaking with my own rules here and venturing into planet pedant.

Quote:
Touch judge and assistant referee

Assistant referees are appointed by the union in charge of the fixture. They are either themselves qualified referees or qualified assistant referees. Assistant referees may be asked to help with duties that touch judges cannot. Touch judges are normally supplied by the teams playing, one from each team.[29]
Pre-match

Before the match an assistant referee may be asked to check the studs and clothing of the players. A touch judge is not permitted to do this.[30]

During the match

During the game touch judges and assistant referees must:

Stand one on each side of the field except for kicks at goal.[31]
Indicate when the ball or player carrying the ball is out and what team can throw it in.[32]
Indicate if the ball has re-entered the playing field illegally.[33]
Indicate if a kick at goal has been successful. Unsuccessful kicks at goal should not be signalled as they are in Rugby league by waving the flag low towards the ground.[34]

Additional responsibilities of assistant referees:

Must report foul play to the referee and give an opinion on the sanction for the incident.[31]
Rule on the scoring of a try if asked.[18]
Give referee information on any other aspect of the game if asked and using communication gear.[18]
May be asked to keep score and time. Although responsibility is still with the referee to do this.[18]
May be asked to control substitutions.[18]

After the match

A touch judge has no responsibilities after a match. The only responsibility an assistant referee has is to complete a written report to send to the referee that is then sent to the union in charge of the game. The report is only required if a player has been sent off or temporarily suspended because of their report on foul play.[35]


As I said previously , there is no formal WR protocol for AR's to police the offside line.

The match referee , may request them to do so and if so they must do as requested.

It is clear and obvious that there are frequent occasions when , for some reason unknown , the match referee does not make this request .

There is a problem , I've stopped attending live matches because if you are positioned elevated and between the 22 m lines for at least 50% of the play , simple parallax shows clearly the defensive line and the offside line.
Far too often the defensive line is offside.

As for the notion that AR's can't judge the offside line because they haven't clear view of the ball clearance , a simple call or electronic signal from the match referee could easily be made.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:07 pm 
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booze wrote:
England have been the worst offenders and against Wales it was shockingly bad.


I've been banging on about the offside line for a few years but you are talking rot, watch the Wales game again, England line discipline was very good barring a couple of times - Tuilagi strayed a few times and got pinged. Also don't forget the offside line changes depending on whether it is a tackle or a ruck. Wales were pushing the line as much as England were.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:38 pm 
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pigaaaa wrote:
Clive Simms wrote:
It's impossible in real time for the ref to assess ruck after ruck, phase after phase where the actual hind most foot is. The Underhill non try v NZ proved this. It took several minutes and replays to establish it and even then there was much debate after it.

There are always going to be marginal offsides missed or onsides wrongly penalised. That's not the issue. The issue is refs are letting blatant offsides 'by a mile' go unpunished atm.


There was a rugby refereeing video sent out a year ago on the first 2 weekends of the Six Nations demonstrating uncalled penalties. The Italians were miles offside on 4 kickoffs shown in a row that the ref was just blind to every time, running downfield. :lol: I put that on scouting and a coach told the players "this ref never calls this". It was well past being a step forward and was more a couple guys had moved downfield 5 meters by the time the ball was kicked. I know you're talking about ruck to ruck, but it's something as a ref you have to be mindful about, otherwise the game falls apart. When I ref, if I can't tell 100% a guy is offside, I don't call it.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:44 pm 
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kiwinoz wrote:
They can't even determine a straight feed to the scrum right in front of them what makes you think that they can see a straight line across the pitch?


Something I wrote on here awhile ago:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87702&p=5774196&hilit=range#p5774196

Quote:
"How to compare a ball that is thrown marginally backward vs. the feed in the scrum that is never straight?"

Well genius, passing the ball is literally a pass/fail mechanism, either the ball is passed backwards or it is not.

Putting the ball in the scrum straight if it were pass/fail would be whistled every scrum. If a scrum half throws the ball in and it deviates from "straight" by 1 millimeter, he did not throw the ball in straight. Therefore, "straight" in this mechanism must have a tolerance or a range. What that tolerance is is not exactly defined and is up to referee discretion.

I tell youth players I referee "I know all scrum halves cheat, don't throw the ball to your secondrow". That works pretty well.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:57 pm 
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When I ref, if I can't tell 100% a guy is offside, I don't call it.


And there you have it - it must be clear and obvious and it isn't all that easy to qualify for that


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:21 am 
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Enzedder wrote:
Quote:
When I ref, if I can't tell 100% a guy is offside, I don't call it.


And there you have it - it must be clear and obvious and it isn't all that easy to qualify for that


Though the AR virtually never calls it even when it is.

Though, it seems from a post above they’re not allowed to by default.

So surely there is an easy fix there.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:29 am 
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Yourmother wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
Quote:
When I ref, if I can't tell 100% a guy is offside, I don't call it.


And there you have it - it must be clear and obvious and it isn't all that easy to qualify for that


Though the AR virtually never calls it even when it is.

Though, it seems from a post above they’re not allowed to by default.

So surely there is an easy fix there.

Virtually never calls it? Wrong

Not allowed to call it? Wrong

Easy fix? Partially wrong...
2/3. Giddy up!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:38 am 
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Hong Kong wrote:
Yourmother wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
Quote:
When I ref, if I can't tell 100% a guy is offside, I don't call it.


And there you have it - it must be clear and obvious and it isn't all that easy to qualify for that


Though the AR virtually never calls it even when it is.

Though, it seems from a post above they’re not allowed to by default.

So surely there is an easy fix there.

Virtually never calls it? Wrong

Not allowed to call it? Wrong

Easy fix? Partially wrong...
2/3. Giddy up!


I don’t recall the last time I’ve seen an AR flag up for an offside, in comparison with the number called, let alone those which are happening. So no.

A post above also suggests they are not permitted to call it unless invited to, so no.

Easy fix, let them police it you stubborn sod. You always back the current system and refereeing to the death ... until WR change it, you’re not exactly impartial here, despite being an expert.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:44 am 
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Yourmother wrote:
Hong Kong wrote:
Yourmother wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
Quote:
When I ref, if I can't tell 100% a guy is offside, I don't call it.


And there you have it - it must be clear and obvious and it isn't all that easy to qualify for that


Though the AR virtually never calls it even when it is.

Though, it seems from a post above they’re not allowed to by default.

So surely there is an easy fix there.

Virtually never calls it? Wrong

Not allowed to call it? Wrong

Easy fix? Partially wrong...
2/3. Giddy up!


I don’t recall the last time I’ve seen an AR flag up for an offside, in comparison with the number called, let alone those which are happening. So no.

A post above also suggests they are not permitted to call it unless invited to, so no.

Easy fix, let them police it you stubborn sod. You always back the current system and refereeing to the death ... until WR change it, you’re not exactly impartial here, despite being an expert.


lighten up sweet pea. Just having a bit of a relaxing banter with you. Seriously though, ARs NEVER flag an offside - they do it on comms and if you have access to a ref's mike, you will OFTEN hear him ask "which number?). I know of no ref who will not ask his ARs to give him offsides but they MUST be clear and obvious - 50-50s can GTF. And I'm far from being stubborn - I am just taking a more chilled (dare I say mature?) approach as I do not think it is as bad as some are claiming. If it is, show me some C&O offsides from last weekend's games, please...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:00 am 
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I get the clear and obvious, and agree.

But I don’t see ARs reffing offsides, or any indication of it.

The only time I ever hear a ref calling for a players number is when foul play, etc has occurred.

Come on HK, break the mould, get your ARs watching for offsides at rucks, so you can focus on ruck infringements. Rather than swinging your head around, trying to guess if there was a material offside through physics, a second before.

And we know physics isn’t the best trait or skill of refs (eg forward pass rulings).


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:48 am 
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YM - look at the position of most ARs at any T/R/M, particularly those close to them - what do you think they are looking at? Also, as some have referred to earlier in the fred, an AR cannot always accurately watch the OS line AND know when the ball is out unless it is C&O. On many occasions, I have heard an AR call 'blue offside' only for the ref to call (correctly or not) 'play on'.

As for physics - :lol: we don't rely on physics, you scamp. It's all down to did the ball leave from the hands in backwards direction?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:59 am 
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Ok, thanks for the confirmation HK. Refs either from the outset prevent ARs from calling offsides, or if not ignore them if they do.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:52 am 
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Spot on

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... 8?mode=amp


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:37 am 
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Flametop wrote:
The latest ignored law by all the refs and TJ’s is the offside line.
Arguably this is the most important law.

As it stands, as long as everybody not in a ruck stands (in unison) a half a metre to a metre ahead of the hind foot, at best everybody gets warned to get back but just ignores it and worst, it’s nit even commented on.

Every team is going to test his much they can get away with but it seems so obvious at the moment that there needs to be a need of a reminder from the top down.


Pics or GTFO!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:50 am 
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redderneck wrote:
We're also at a point where underage sides might as well go down the route of training props to throw the ball into lineouts because specialist hookers are no longer needed. Just pack down with three props.


The hookers role in a scrum is quite defined in the laws. A hooker has to strike for his or her own put in, and must stand with his / her feet behind those of the props beforehand so while you might train a prop to be a hooker, he / she will still be a hooker.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:06 am 
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Yourmother wrote:
Hong Kong wrote:
Yourmother wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
Quote:
When I ref, if I can't tell 100% a guy is offside, I don't call it.


And there you have it - it must be clear and obvious and it isn't all that easy to qualify for that


Though the AR virtually never calls it even when it is.

Though, it seems from a post above they’re not allowed to by default.

So surely there is an easy fix there.

Virtually never calls it? Wrong

Not allowed to call it? Wrong

Easy fix? Partially wrong...
2/3. Giddy up!


I don’t recall the last time I’ve seen an AR flag up for an offside, in comparison with the number called, let alone those which are happening. So no.

A post above also suggests they are not permitted to call it unless invited to, so no.

Easy fix, let them police it you stubborn sod. You always back the current system and refereeing to the death ... until WR change it, you’re not exactly impartial here, despite being an expert.


Wales vs Ireland it happened. Refs get it called all the time into their ears.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:08 am 
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Yourmother wrote:

I don’t recall the last time I’ve seen an AR flag up for an offside, in comparison with the number called, let alone those which are happening. So no.



2 years ago, Scarlets v Edinburgh, Welsh AR called Edinburgh offside with a couple of minutes, giving Scarlets the penalty that won the game 22-21. Absolute shocker of a home decision.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:42 pm 
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I'd agree. If I were a 12 or 13 these days I'd live in the opposition backline confident the ref would do fvck all about it, much less the AR who seems to be there exclusively to decide where the ball flies into touch.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:00 pm 
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Flametop wrote:



Wow ... finding myself in complete agreement with Matt Williams!

If a football linesman can do a half-decent job of getting their offside right (don't watch a lot but can't think of many mistakes when I used to watch regularly) with the sometimes massive gaps between kicker and forward runner, then a rugby AR can keep one eye on there being 'a modicum of daylight' between defensive line / breakdown and the other on the ball being out. Ref could even make it easier by saying "Ball out!"


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