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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:35 am 
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In a time of crisis, those countries are better. Why? Surely they have the same proportion of idiots as we do?

The lesson in all of this as that we need to copy them.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:42 am 
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Korea points of difference = rapid mass production of testing kits + wider testing ...

... and most particularly very thorough tracking of contacts of those positively tested to put those people into isolation.

Japan, I dunno.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:49 am 
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J Man wrote:
In a time of crisis, those countries are better. Why? Surely they have the same proportion of idiots as we do?

The lesson in all of this as that we need to copy them.



No, they don't.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:54 am 
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Kahu wrote:
J Man wrote:
In a time of crisis, those countries are better. Why? Surely they have the same proportion of idiots as we do?

The lesson in all of this as that we need to copy them.



No, they don't.

Maybe.

But one advantage is having some form of (technologically current) manufacturing base.

Australia's, such as it was, went dead 40-50 years ago ...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:57 am 
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kiap wrote:
Korea points of difference = rapid mass production of testing kits + wider testing ...

... and most particularly very thorough tracking of contacts of those positively tested to put those people into isolation.

Japan, I dunno.


Fukushima?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:58 am 
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Collectivist cultures. They’re custom designed to deal with this shit


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:00 am 
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Their population takes the potential spread of disease more seriously.

They also have less need to touch each other, I still don't get why that cringey elbow bump became a thing, just greet each other without feeling each other up :?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:03 am 
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Ewinkum wrote:
kiap wrote:
Korea points of difference = rapid mass production of testing kits + wider testing ...

... and most particularly very thorough tracking of contacts of those positively tested to put those people into isolation.

Japan, I dunno.


Fukushima?

Y'know, sometimes the simplest methods work best ...

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:17 am 
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In Japan certain things are ingrained - like never littering and school children cleaning up the Canteen after eating.

They pull together better than Westerners


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:26 am 
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Japan also has a comprehensive national health service that costs residents very little.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:50 am 
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I think I heard once it's been proven academically that E & SE Asians are not as prone to fundamental attribution error as 'free world' Westerners. May be culturally driven (or may drive the culture?).


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:32 am 
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Having lived in Korea for 6 months, I can tell you they are a very proud nation. Its like an extended family. They will do all they can for country.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:33 am 
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kiap wrote:
Ewinkum wrote:
kiap wrote:
Korea points of difference = rapid mass production of testing kits + wider testing ...

... and most particularly very thorough tracking of contacts of those positively tested to put those people into isolation.

Japan, I dunno.


Fukushima?

Y'know, sometimes the simplest methods work best ...

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:06 am 
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LandOTurk wrote:
Having lived in Korea for 6 months, I can tell you they are a very proud nation. Its like an extended family. They will do all they can for country.


The west has completely lost this - probably due to high immigration. Although you're not allowed to say that.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:15 am 
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Kahu wrote:
J Man wrote:
In a time of crisis, those countries are better. Why? Surely they have the same proportion of idiots as we do?

The lesson in all of this as that we need to copy them.



No, they don't.



They actually do but those idiots are strongly encouraged not to act on their idiot tendencies.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:42 am 
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A couple of things having lived in south korea and visited japan often.

I think it's best summed up as "group culture"

while there's an acknowledgement people act individually, ultimately people always feel themselves as part of a group:

on multiple levels:

a) part of a family chain (descendents..offspring etc)
b) part of a group in terms of money/work..eg company culture..eg toyota samsung etc...so you see yourself as just one cog in a huge group there.
c) nationalism: this both applies to modern times(making your country proud of you, + working for your country (insert JFK quote here))...
...but also there is a seige mentality based on tribalism historically...and the older generations remind the younger ones of this..eg japan's occupation of korea 1910-1945
d) conformism is a no brainer.

whats also interesting is that they almost always congregate in groups in social/public situations.

walking along say...lambton quay in NZ you'll always see many people quite happily walking alone...at 5pm
same time of the day in seoul they will prefer to walk with a workmate or in groups along the street.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:49 am 
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I think similar principles can be applied to part of Africa. People here generally conform and listen to instructions. Perhaps there is also the religious element to it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:53 am 
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naki wrote:
Collectivist cultures. They’re custom designed to deal with this shit


I would describe Pacifika cultures as collectivist by nature, yet they get hammered my health outbreaks.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:08 am 
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In pure practical rather than cultural terms - any of the wealthier Asian countries that were hit by SARS last time around, developed plans, kept the teams on board and mobilised them both pretty quick.

Singapore and Taiwan also did pretty well. Singapore seemed to be through the worst of it but took another big hit yesterday with travellers returning from that big muslim gathering thingy - 47 new cases, all identified, all but 3 traced to existing known sources or clusters, contact tracing going on for each and all publicly published on the MOH website.

Look at the Taiwan CDC website and same thing going on.

So just a lot of good governance going on aside from the cultural aspects.

Those without the cash/ governance or (crossing into the cultural bit again) with the belief that allah will protect them are looking a bit more screwed at the moment


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:39 am 
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naki wrote:
Collectivist cultures. They’re custom designed to deal with this shit



This. The response to Fukushima wasn’t ‘shit let’s go looting’ but rather how can we get Japan back on its feet.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:44 am 
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HKCJ wrote:
naki wrote:
Collectivist cultures. They’re custom designed to deal with this shit



This. The response to Fukushima wasn’t ‘shit let’s go looting’ but rather how can we get Japan back on its feet.


People walking for hours to get home after that earthquake were waiting in line to pay for goods at convenience stores, hardly any looting or crazy behaviour


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:57 am 
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Tehui wrote:
naki wrote:
Collectivist cultures. They’re custom designed to deal with this shit


I would describe Pacifika cultures as collectivist by nature, yet they get hammered my health outbreaks.

Pasifika is collectiviste without discipline.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:33 am 
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I've seen it suggested that Japan aren't really testing because they want the Olympics to go ahead.

Not sure about that but it's a good conspiracy theory at least.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:38 am 
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Tehui wrote:
naki wrote:
Collectivist cultures. They’re custom designed to deal with this shit


I would describe Pacifika cultures as collectivist by nature, yet they get hammered my health outbreaks.


Developing vs first world might of South Korea and Japan.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:47 am 
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Long story short re Covid 19

FACT - Covid-19 doesn't understand hanja or kanji in communicating with them

It thought it had it sorted in China re kanji, but got it's arse kicked with some old school utilitarianism


Last edited by Dark on Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:49 am 
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Heymans wrote:
Tehui wrote:
naki wrote:
Collectivist cultures. They’re custom designed to deal with this shit


I would describe Pacifika cultures as collectivist by nature, yet they get hammered my health outbreaks.

Pasifika is collectiviste without discipline.


Ok, so is 'discipline' (however defined) the biggest variable for managing outbreaks? If so, does that mean Germany, Italy and France lack discipline? How do we explain why India has so few infections?

I don't know the answers. I would have to see comparative studies done between each country's response & timing to the respective outbreaks in each country.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:52 am 
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japan and korea are much more disciplined than European or African ones. They also (Japanese and Koreans) take hygeine very seriously.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:14 am 
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Tehui wrote:
naki wrote:
Collectivist cultures. They’re custom designed to deal with this shit


I would describe Pacifika cultures as collectivist by nature, yet they get hammered my health outbreaks.


the "group think" in Samoa recently went the other way - mass suspicion of vaccination among the people.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:30 am 
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J Man wrote:
In a time of crisis, those countries are better. Why? Surely they have the same proportion of idiots as we do?

The lesson in all of this as that we need to copy them.

They have a dissipline culture. Australia and NZ have a bunch of rotten spoiled brats.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:42 am 
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OomPB wrote:
J Man wrote:
In a time of crisis, those countries are better. Why? Surely they have the same proportion of idiots as we do?

The lesson in all of this as that we need to copy them.

They have a dissipline culture. Australia and NZ have a bunch of rotten spoiled brats.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:46 am 
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Tehui wrote:
Heymans wrote:
Tehui wrote:
naki wrote:
Collectivist cultures. They’re custom designed to deal with this shit


I would describe Pacifika cultures as collectivist by nature, yet they get hammered my health outbreaks.

Pasifika is collectiviste without discipline.


Ok, so is 'discipline' (however defined) the biggest variable for managing outbreaks? If so, does that mean Germany, Italy and France lack discipline? How do we explain why India has so few infections?

I don't know the answers. I would have to see comparative studies done between each country's response & timing to the respective outbreaks in each country.


I dont know. Japan and Korea also have a non-physical culture, especially Japan. As in people not touching each other, even in families.
India, no answer.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:49 am 
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naki wrote:
Collectivist cultures. They’re custom designed to deal with this shit

Collectivism, previous experience with SARS, and a culture which is much more at ease with obeying authority.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:54 am 
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J Man wrote:
LandOTurk wrote:
Having lived in Korea for 6 months, I can tell you they are a very proud nation. Its like an extended family. They will do all they can for country.


The west has completely lost this - probably due to high immigration. Although you're not allowed to say that.

:lol:
Any excuse to get a xenophobic boot in there. No immigrants didn't bring in the rabid individualist culture cultivated through neoliberalism in the latter half of the 20th century.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:54 am 
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Japan has a long history of natural disasters that has instilled two character traits: stoicism and fatalism. Combined, they mean there is little sense of panic and a strong community spirit that comes through in this sort of time.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:43 pm 
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Legacy of Confucianism and SARS.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:47 pm 
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Don't a lot of elderly Japanese live with their families when they get older (rather than Care Homes etc)? You'd think that would make them more vulnerable to infection, but perhaps it's meant that the Japanese have been super careful because of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:49 pm 
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unseenwork wrote:
J Man wrote:
LandOTurk wrote:
Having lived in Korea for 6 months, I can tell you they are a very proud nation. Its like an extended family. They will do all they can for country.


The west has completely lost this - probably due to high immigration. Although you're not allowed to say that.

:lol:
Any excuse to get a xenophobic boot in there. No immigrants didn't bring in the rabid individualist culture cultivated through neoliberalism in the latter half of the 20th century.


:nod:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:55 pm 
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Man In Black wrote:
Nothing to do with having China on their doorstep so needing to be prepared for anything?


My Asian history isn't great, but I would think historically the Chinese and Koreans have had more to fear from the Japanese!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:09 pm 
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There is a very simple phone app, I believe, which has aided massively in contact tracing. Western society rejected it after H1N1 but the Asians didn't.

Is my understanding.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:13 pm 
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South Korea learnt a lesson from SARS.


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