World League not GOOOOOOONE

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Brumby_in_Vic
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Brumby_in_Vic »

The English have played a tier two nation every autumn.

Under the previous agreement before Pichot went out to change it in to this World League bollocks the Six Nations unions agreed to playing tier two nations on tour in July. That included touring the US and Japan.
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eldanielfire
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by eldanielfire »

kiap wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Brumby_in_Vic wrote:Well the ABs play three against Cheika’s Wallabies a year.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
They are a bit shit, it has to be said :lol:

Lemme put the question to you tho:

How many games do you say England should play against T2?
Ideally at least 2 a year. They have played one a year for quite some time now.
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blindcider
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by blindcider »

eldanielfire wrote:
kiap wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Brumby_in_Vic wrote:Well the ABs play three against Cheika’s Wallabies a year.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
They are a bit shit, it has to be said :lol:

Lemme put the question to you tho:

How many games do you say England should play against T2?
Ideally at least 2 a year. They have played one a year for quite some time now.
its a shame the Churchill cup got killed off too
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kiap
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by kiap »

blindcider wrote:
kiap wrote:
How many games do you say England should play against T2?
Minimum 2 - We play France, Italy and Scotland every year though so are ahead of the curve
So, Poms:

a) 6N: (T?) ... 2.5 home / 2.5 away
b) 4N: (T?) ... 2 home / 2 away
c) 13N: (T2) ... 1 home / 1 away

Add in the baabaas and that's 12 games a year (6-7 at home / 5-6 away) ?
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by polyallstar »

kiap wrote:
polyallstar wrote:
kiap wrote:
polyallstar wrote:Have to say I'm shocked by Pichot's involvement in this, everything I've read previously suggested he was a big advocate of the Tier 2/3 game...
TBF, it wasn't him who wanted to rule out promo/relegation.

Who do you think it was? (Hint: started with a 6 and then expanded)
Even if there is promotion/relegation it's still a terrible idea as it means Tier 2 nations NEVER get to play Tier 1 unless they are promoted. The new calendar should increase the number of cross-tier games (or as I've advocated before A teams v Tier 2) not decrease them...
C'mon then. Exactly how many games are you suggesting, say, the All Blacks play against T2?

And how many do they play overall?

(If you can answer this, you get one rubber stamp) :)
I'd say at least 2 per year (1 autumn, 1 summer is manageable imo) and as mentioned I'd like to see more A games at that level (would be a perfect stepping stone for Georgia to play home test v England Saxons imo)

Currently England play one a year (since the Churchill Cup died a few years ago) no idea about ABs?

Tbh I'd rather England played a Tier 2 test than BaaBaas too (will no doubt get shot down for this, but if it's an either/or I'd choose Tier 2 test)
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kiap
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by kiap »

polyallstar wrote:I'd say at least 2 per year (1 autumn, 1 summer is manageable imo) and as mentioned I'd like to see more A games at that level (would be a perfect stepping stone for Georgia to play home test v England Saxons imo)

Currently England play one a year (since the Churchill Cup died a few years ago) no idea about ABs?

Tbh I'd rather England played a Tier 2 test than BaaBaas too (will no doubt get shot down for this, but if it's an either/or I'd choose Tier 2 test)
So I'll hold the rubber stamp for guy smiley and his coffee-powered brain. :)

NZ are minor players anyway, and these Tier 2 tests are particularly good in England. I think the RFU need to schedule four per year. The two I already factored into my last post + a third in place of the Baabaas game + another as their 13th game per year.

Everyone knows this is the right way to go. Can I get an Amen !!

Sir Bill won't even be needed once the fans are on board but, until that's rubber stamped, the numbers of games I posted above are still where we're at.

There's still more scope to be had, though. Lions years, bro. Every one of these tours, the four Lions countries left behind should be touring T2 countries like Tonga, Samoa and Japan. 3 Tests each x 4 countries, that's 12 cross-tier games.

Obviously in World Cup years there are more cross-tier games as well. Time to expand it to 24 teams to bring in even more of T2.

In the remaining two years of each 4-year cycle, I think one of year should have a focus on the old skool head-to-head 3-Test series tours.

And the other year? Well, I look at these numbers:
    • a) 6N: (T?) ... 2.5 home / 2.5 away
      b) 4N: (T?) ... 2 home / 2 away
      c) 13N: (T2) ... 1 home / 1 away ... make it 2 home / 2 away
A 12-team World League with potential T2 promotion (and 6N + TRC untouched) can fit in that. Add on an option of a final. That's what I'd do for one year out of four.
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naki
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by naki »

kiap wrote:
polyallstar wrote:
kiap wrote:
polyallstar wrote:Have to say I'm shocked by Pichot's involvement in this, everything I've read previously suggested he was a big advocate of the Tier 2/3 game...
TBF, it wasn't him who wanted to rule out promo/relegation.

Who do you think it was? (Hint: started with a 6 and then expanded)
Even if there is promotion/relegation it's still a terrible idea as it means Tier 2 nations NEVER get to play Tier 1 unless they are promoted. The new calendar should increase the number of cross-tier games (or as I've advocated before A teams v Tier 2) not decrease them...
C'mon then. Exactly how many games are you suggesting, say, the All Blacks play against T2?

And how many do they play overall?

(If you can answer this, you get one rubber stamp) :)
The ABs generally play one test a year against a Tier 2 nation (not including at RWCs). Tonga this year, Japan last year, Samoa the year before.

Not often enough.
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Floppykid »

It's just a dreadful idea, top to bottom.
It seems to have come out of nowhere for me, or maybe I'm just not paying attention much anymore.

Who's been calling for a global season/comp?
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Rugby2023 »

Of course it's not gone, this is like May's deal, the powers that be have decided this is what's going to happen irrespective of whether people hate it. They're just going to keep tweaking it to pacify various interests in the hope of getting it through.
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Brumby_in_Vic
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Brumby_in_Vic »

Floppykid wrote:It's just a dreadful idea, top to bottom.
It seems to have come out of nowhere for me, or maybe I'm just not paying attention much anymore.

Who's been calling for a global season/comp?
Pichot and skint unions like the ARU.
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

kiap wrote:these Tier 2 tests are particularly good in England.
Why?
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Brumby_in_Vic
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Brumby_in_Vic »

They fill the stadium and so do the IRFU. The ARU in comparison only got 30,000 for the Samoa test in 2011 and 12,000 to watch Fiji in 2017.
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:They fill the stadium and so do the IRFU. The ARU in comparison only got 30,000 for the Samoa test in 2011 and 12,000 to watch Fiji in 2017.
Oh, I thought he meant for the Tier 2 side.
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kiap
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by kiap »

naki wrote:
kiap wrote:C'mon then. Exactly how many games are you suggesting, say, the All Blacks play against T2?

And how many do they play overall?

(If you can answer this, you get one rubber stamp) :)
The ABs generally play one test a year against a Tier 2 nation (not including at RWCs). Tonga this year, Japan last year, Samoa the year before.

Not often enough.
Still no rubber stamp, I'm afraid. :thumbup:

I think this needs a heavyweight. It seems to be a hard question, cuz.

Where's guy smiley when u need him?
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guy smiley
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by guy smiley »

What hypothetical do you want me to rhetorically address?
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naki
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by naki »

kiap wrote:
naki wrote:
kiap wrote:C'mon then. Exactly how many games are you suggesting, say, the All Blacks play against T2?

And how many do they play overall?

(If you can answer this, you get one rubber stamp) :)
The ABs generally play one test a year against a Tier 2 nation (not including at RWCs). Tonga this year, Japan last year, Samoa the year before.

Not often enough.
Still no rubber stamp, I'm afraid. :thumbup:

I think this needs a heavyweight. It seems to be a hard question, cuz.

Where's guy smiley when u need him?
Well fvck you, cvnt
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kiap
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by kiap »

naki wrote:Well fvck you, cvnt
:thumbup: :lol:
guy smiley wrote:What hypothetical do you want me to rhetorically address?
This requires more than naki's bandwidth. ;) So, in reverse order ..

(b) How many games should the ABs be playing?

(a) How many T2 games should the ABs be playing?
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

kiap wrote:
(a) How many T2 games should the ABs be playing?
Maaaate, they're a really good side but matching them up against a T-1000 made of mimetic polyalloy is a bit of a hard ask.
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kiap
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by kiap »

Jay Cee Gee wrote:a bit of a hard ask.
I thought so ... :nod:
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guy smiley
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by guy smiley »

I smell a trap... :x you’re asking me to answer someone else’s question.

I’m back out and on the phone so excuse any brevity...

We’re constricted by the need for revenue, right, all of us so balancing that with moral guardianship is difficult and challenging. Thank god I’m here then...

I think the SANZAAR model has become bloated and cumbersome. Strip some of that out and reduce the gameload while increasing the appeal of the current playing partners simultaneously. No home and away, straight round robin and reverse the next year for the RC. Host a couple of ‘away’ tests to share a decent gate with PI teams... if we really have to we can add mix a three test Bledisloe series into that and the RC. Sigh.

NZ has two international teams in men’s 15. The Maori could be playing a test series every year and that could be a pathway to greater Tier2 exposure and that mana mystique would sell very well into the US.

We’ve discussed the future of Soup in here many times over the years and I’ve been fairly consistent in my preference for swing the focus back onto the Pacific Rim rugby community. I would still
Like to see that happen for the massive marketing opportunities and the potential growth of the game into nations like Uruguay, Paraguay, Brazil etc and mainland USA. If we started a regular Soup level comp that gave those types of countries regular access to professional rugby we could also include them into a second tier test schedule involving a Maori All Blacks side while the ABs continued with a modified version of the current set up that opens a window for 2-3 second tier tests as well.

You want ideas? I’m here to shake the tree, rock the boat, spill the Syrah. The game has become static, it needs to open up.
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Zakar »

Australia could near enough to sell out para stadium playing Vs any of the island teams...pretty much regardless of who they are playing in the tier 1. Probably ditto for NZ and say Mt Smart.
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kiap
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by kiap »

guy smiley wrote:I smell a trap... :x you’re asking me to answer someone else’s question.

I’m back out and on the phone so excuse any brevity...

We’re constricted by the need for revenue, right, all of us so balancing that with moral guardianship is difficult and challenging. Thank god I’m here then...
:nod: Gets hard when the rubber stamp hits the road ...

i.e. boss man Stinky Steve may be a cvnt, but he's your cvnt. At least we're not pretending he doesn't want the money from this World League concept. Sanzaar have been driving it, bro.
guy smiley wrote:I think the SANZAAR model has become bloated and cumbersome. Strip some of that out and reduce the gameload while increasing the appeal of the current playing partners simultaneously. No home and away, straight round robin and reverse the next year for the RC. Host a couple of ‘away’ tests to share a decent gate with PI teams... if we really have to we can add mix a three test Bledisloe series into that and the RC. Sigh.
So that's TRC halved from 6 games to 3. In place of that a couple (i.e. 2) games at Eden Park where all the gate goes to Fiji/Samoa. Generous ... And for the third, either hosting Japan/USA or playing them at Chichibu/Chicago (what were the scores last time -- 70-nil in each case wasn't it?)

I reckon the ABs playing those games will be the Soup/M10 crew that got capped last year. The main ABs players don't want these "tests". They're seeking fewer games, not more.
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kiap
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by kiap »

Zakar wrote:Australia could near enough to sell out para stadium playing Vs any of the island teams...
What's stopping them - ticket prices?
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kiap
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by kiap »

guy smiley wrote:NZ has two international teams in men’s 15. The Maori could be playing a test series every year and that could be a pathway to greater Tier2 exposure and that mana mystique would sell very well into the US.

I think the idea has merit, but that's some masterful marketing you've added on top! :thumbup:

NZ playing their Tier 2 team against Tier 2 countries! It's better tho: minus blowouts, plus mana!! How come you don't have Steve Tew's job already?
guy smiley wrote:We’ve discussed the future of Soup in here many times over the years and I’ve been fairly consistent in my preference for swing the focus back onto the Pacific Rim rugby community.

Super Rugby told the PIs to geffarrked a few months ago, tho. And Kiwis galore (literally everywhere) want the Sunwolves booted. That's a bit awkward.
guy smiley wrote:Like to see that happen for the massive marketing opportunities and the potential growth of the game into nations like Uruguay, Paraguay, Brazil etc and mainland USA. If we started a regular Soup level comp that gave those types of countries regular access to professional rugby we could also include them into a second tier test schedule involving a Maori All Blacks side while the ABs continued with a modified version of the current set up that opens a window for 2-3 second tier tests as well.You want ideas? I’m here to shake the tree, rock the boat, spill the Syrah. The game has become static, it needs to open up.
Tests against Paraguay and Brazil, eh? Maori AB might play their 2nd tier lineup for those too, I suppose?
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by guy smiley »

kiap wrote: So that's TRC halved from 6 games to 3. In place of that a couple (i.e. 2) games at Eden Park where all the gate goes to Fiji/Samoa. Generous ... And for the third, either hosting Japan/USA or playing them at Chichibu/Chicago (what were the scores last time -- 70-nil in each case wasn't it?)

I reckon the ABs playing those games will be the Soup/M10 crew that got capped last year. The main ABs players don't want these "tests". They're seeking fewer games, not more.
Last year the ABs played 15 tests. Several players missed games through injury. The same applies to other nations, of course... this is the argument the players' association pushes. Workload. I hate the idea of rotation myself but we are seeing it enforced through injury now which then encourages outlier selections as a damage mitigation policy. So be it.

Also, I'm not saying all the gate goes to the PI union, I said sharing. NZ have runs on the board already with that and I think it's a goer. If you ran the fixture as a festival type thing (it would be, the fans would make sure of that) you could run a double header and pack the joint. More pie for everyone. Repeat in Sydney or Brisbane. Pool the gate. We could look at gate pooling more anyway, particularly when it comes to us Pacific people, bro.

Look at the success NZ made of hosting the RWC... the cultural theme was massive and it went down a treat. Polynesia loves a party... so start one and hold it every year. It would me a massive winner for the fans and then you've got solid gold product to sell.

Meanwhile, that Pacific Rim thing. Let's just do that as well.
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by guy smiley »

kiap wrote: Tests against Paraguay and Brazil, eh? Maori AB might play their 2nd tier lineup for those too, I suppose?
Have you seen the Brazilian scrum? :shock:

here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOhPmWAtvpM

:lol: :thumbup:

edit again...

from this year, against the head, against Argentina

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjwLDzKwGDw
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kiap
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by kiap »

guy smiley wrote:
kiap wrote: Tests against Paraguay and Brazil, eh? Maori AB might play their 2nd tier lineup for those too, I suppose?
Have you seen the Brazilian scrum? :shock:

here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOhPmWAtvpM

:lol: :thumbup:

edit again...

from this year, against the head, against Argentina

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjwLDzKwGDw
Yeah, I have mate. :thumbup:

It's great to watch. Teams who want to get good, tho, eventually focus on other aspects besides scrummaging.

They were flogged by the Pampas XV.
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guy smiley
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by guy smiley »

Yeah, but no-one f**ks with the Pampas XV.
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kiap
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by kiap »

guy smiley wrote:Yeah, but no-one f**ks with the Pampas XV.
True. Pampers on the other hand ... I've got a few adult nappies that have seen some action! :shock:
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by guy smiley »

Jesus :lol:

Back on errr, track...

we're deadset against this WR proposal primarily because it's a closed shop with no attempt made to open the game up for more teams. We've got to start entertaining the idea of playing teams we think aren't good enough and the best way to do that is ground up competition. Argentina were considered second rate for a long time... they're RWC 1/4 Finalists.Everyone has got locked into this annual June / Autumn test routine and the hemisphere relevant big comp. We need to look outside that. Swing it around... we could go north every second year and have a massive SH jamboree instead.
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Zakar »

kiap wrote:
Zakar wrote:Australia could near enough to sell out para stadium playing Vs any of the island teams...
What's stopping them - ticket prices?
Is Samoa allowed to just rent Parra stadium for a match versus Scotland say?
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Vuaka »

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:...and 12,000 to watch Fiji in 2017.
That game was in Melbourne and suggests that Victorians aren't keen on watching a T2 side.

Besides, I believe that Sydney has the highest number of Fijians that reside in AU.
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Brumby_in_Vic »

Was that test even promoted? I got the impression reading comments and articles that people even know it was on.
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Re: World League not GOOOOOOONE

Post by Vuaka »

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:Was that test even promoted? I got the impression reading comments and articles that people even know it was on.
RA is in charge so probably not.

I get that they want to move the "lesser" games to areas that don't get much rugby but jeez, you're not going to find many Fiji supporters in Melbourne.
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