Planet Rugby Forum

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:23 am**

Quick question: Is the Beauden Barrett vs. Richie Mo'unga debate for the All Blacks 10 jersey still a thing?

The reason I ask is that surely, beyond any doubt, Mo'unga is the best first five in the country. Even among Hurricanes fans.

Mo'unga made Barrett look second rate in the Crusaders' 32-8 win over the Hurricanes tonight.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:31 am**

Debating who will start for the AB's is over. You're not going to change this close to the RWC.

Debating their form will never go out of fashion. BB has been better up to this week. Mo'unga definitely better tonight.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:36 am**

Wilderbeast wrote:Debating who will start for the AB's is over. You're not going to change this close to the RWC.

Debating their form will never go out of fashion. BB has been better up to this week. Mo'unga definitely better tonight.

Mo'unga will be in the squad, that's for sure. Unless Hansen has a stroke, I expect Mo'unga to leapfrog Barrett during the RWC at 10, if not before it.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:39 am**

Only way he leapfrogs BB is through injury or a serious drop in form from BB (worse than his standard fluctuations). Not many coaches would swap their ten on the eve of the RWC, and Hansen is more loyal than most. Mo'unga playing better in soup won't be enough (he did that last year).

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:42 am**

Wilderbeast wrote:Only way he leapfrogs BB is through injury or a serious drop in form from BB (worse than his standard fluctuations). Not many coaches would swap their ten on the eve of the RWC, and Hansen is more loyal than most. Mo'unga playing better in soup won't be enough (he did that last year).

I will live with Mo'unga replacing Barrett at half time, if that's what has to happen at this late stage. I'm sure their hand will be forced if it comes to the kind of display Barrett put on today.

Barrett is clearly better at 15, it's just a shame it's taking the NZ coaches so long to realise it.

They're only just waking up to the Mckenzie failure.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:44 am**

They are very stubborn. They can afford to be (they win an awful lot). It's that stubbornness that makes me think BB is safe at 10, and for longer than 40 minutes every game.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:52 am**

Mo'unga/Sopoanga the names are close enough I guess.

JDog has island fever.

I'd probably prefer Mo'unga to BB TBH.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:46 pm**

Saders foward pack helped Mounga tonight

But barrett generally struggles under pressure.. Doesn't have the extra few milliseconds/. Decision making ability that the greats have

Agree he plays his best rugby at 15

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:52 pm**

UncleFB wrote:Mo'unga/Sopoanga the names are close enough I guess.

JDog has island fever.

I'd probably prefer Mo'unga to BB TBH.

Merit is the only passport to 10 stardom in my book.

Mo'unga should be wearing 20 for the All Blacks, cos he's twice the 10 Barrett is.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:54 pm**

brat wrote:Saders foward pack helped Mounga tonight

But barrett generally struggles under pressure.. Doesn't have the extra few milliseconds/. Decision making ability that the greats have

Agree he plays his best rugby at 15

The difference is Mo'unga doesn't shit himself when the defence is in his face. The Crusaders don't always have it their way, but when they don't Mo'unga has the ability to hammer the percentages. You know, like any test worthy 10 tends to f**king do.

The slow as fudge braindead AB coaches seem to be coming around to the fact McKenzie is not a 10. How long until they do the same with Barrett? After we lose the World Cup?

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:03 pm**

There, I've said it.

Beauden Barrett is not a great first-five and his inability to control a tight match, or manage a tight contest against a strong defensive team, will cost us the RWC.

Barrett plays like a God against weak teams and poor defences, but as we've seen time and time again he struggles badly against quality opposition. We saw it against the B&I Lions, we saw it against Ireland and we've seen it against the Crusaders in recent years; against a committed, well-structured defense he's got no answers. Unless he's making line breaks he's doesn't add to a performance. He may as well not be there. He doesn't create time or space for his outside players with his passing game, and his general play kicking game (whilst it's getting better as he matures) is only average.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:29 pm**

I agree...

Beauden at fullback... Ben Smith and Rieko Ioane as the wingers...

Mo'unga at 10. Sorted.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:31 pm**

It’s been clear for the best part of 18 months now that Mo’unga should be the one, with BB at fullback or the bench. Barrett is arguably the most talented player in the country but is not suited to a tight contest at first-five.

The problem is that Mo’s recent form is not compelling enough to put pressure on his spot, and Barrett has improved enough in his major work-ons (goalkicking, tactical kicking and defence) since last season that Hansen will feel entirely justified in retaining him. Which he was probably going to do regardless of form.

The areas where RM has clear superiority (passing, conducting a backline, temperament) would be crucial for the RWC but he hasn’t done enough to usurp Barrett in his goalkicking or defence. It’s a real shame as I also can’t see us wining it with BB at pivot.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:35 pm**

Well we won in 2011 with Donald at 10, so I wouldn't rule anything out.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:38 pm**

not_english wrote:Well we won in 2011 with Donald at 10, so I wouldn't rule anything out.

A bit unfair of us to use the big guns like that.

Re the topic - I think we have almost no show at the RWC with our current number 10s. Mo was very average last night as well

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:39 pm**

not_english wrote:Well we won in 2011 with Donald at 10, so I wouldn't rule anything out.

We only needed the Beaver to not completely shit the bed for about an hour then, after Carter, Slade and Cruden had got us there.

We’ll need BB to do the same for the entire tournament. Not confident

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:41 pm**

Enzedder wrote:
not_english wrote:Well we won in 2011 with Donald at 10, so I wouldn't rule anything out.
A bit unfair of us to use the big guns like that.

Re the topic - I think we have almost no show at the RWC with our current number 10s. Mo was very average last night as well

I disagree. I thought he controlled the match much more effectively than his opposing no.10. He kicked well, out of hand and from the tee, and he tackled really well as well.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:46 pm**

It'll be a true underdog story if the ABs manage to win the RWC this time round.

Too many questions about the team, starting with who is our best 10. The balance of our loose forwards is all outta whack, Read injured yet again may be struggling for match fitness, Cane with a long term injury, God knows who at 6, where to slot in Savea etc...
We don't have the top level depth at this point to cover for inevitable injuries to key players without losing too much quality... it's going to take some careful player management to get to the semis with a full strength team. Having Mo'unga and BBarrett fighting it out is probably a good thing here, they'll both be getting some quality playing time in the earlier games, but we're going to be looking for immediate cover for either of them if they pick up an injury and that'll mean DMac likely getting on the field in knockout rounds...

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:50 pm**

guy smiley wrote:The Chiefs are reinvigorated with Marty MacKenzie at 10.

If that doesn’t thrown conventional thinking on its head then I politely suggest you’re thinking at the opposite end of the spine.

MMac for AB bolter?
Heads would implode, Cats would chase dogs, Planets would collide.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:53 pm**

Turbogoat wrote:It'll be a true underdog story if the ABs manage to win the RWC this time round.

Too many questions about the team, starting with who is our best 10. The balance of our loose forwards is all outta whack, Read injured yet again may be struggling for match fitness, Cane with a long term injury, God knows who at 6, where to slot in Savea etc...
We don't have the top level depth at this point to cover for inevitable injuries to key players without losing too much quality... it's going to take some careful player management to get to the semis with a full strength team. Having Mo'unga and BBarrett fighting it out is probably a good thing here, they'll both be getting some quality playing time in the earlier games, but we're going to be looking for immediate cover for either of them if they pick up an injury and that'll mean DMac likely getting on the field in knockout rounds...

I think backrow will be fine. Savea is probably putting pressure on Cane’s starting spot anyway, and if Sam returns in time to get fully up to speed we’ll have genuine options. Read’s injury is not serious.

Blindside is a mystery but, again, we have options. I don’t either one of Frizell, Fifita or Hemopo will let the side down but personally I’d love to see a Cane-Savea-Read backrow. Cane already has the workrate and tackle efficiency of a blindside, Ardie is in incredible form and a menace at the breakdown and carrying, and Read gives us aerial options and - when in form - a huge attacking threat.

More concerned with injuries to the tight five.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:57 pm**

Agreed on a Savea/Cane/Read trio (whichever order as required) as our strongest option.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:02 pm**

Turbogoat wrote:Agreed on a Savea/Cane/Read trio (whichever order as required) as our strongest option.

This is an anti-Beauden Barrett troll thread. Please stay on topic.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:06 pm**

We don't want BB at 10 in the world cup.. end of topic...

Now the loose forward mix. I'd get Akira Ioane playing 8 for the Blacks asap.. put Read at 6.... and Cane/Savea/Todd at 7....

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:15 pm**

Barrett's limitations have been clear for a couple of years yet the coaching team talked down Mo'unga's form and have given him very limited opportunities. They have painted themselves into a corner and now have the choice of inexperience but promise or known fraility against decent teams. I would go with Mo'unga but can't see Hansen making that choice. The only way I see Mo'unga taking the spot is injury or Barrett missing a flight.

What will people think of Hansen if Barrett goes missing and costs us a knock out game? Is this the biggest call of his tenure?

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:19 pm**

Ali's Choice wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:Agreed on a Savea/Cane/Read trio (whichever order as required) as our strongest option.
This is an anti-Beauden Barrett troll thread. Please stay on topic.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:29 pm**

Beauden is ace by me

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:31 pm**

CrazyIslander wrote:Beauden is ace by me

The prosecution rests its case.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:34 pm**

JB1981 wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:Beauden is ace by me
The prosecution rests its case.

Drop him if you want. I prefer not to have him in the opposition.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:44 pm**

CrazyIslander wrote:
JB1981 wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:Beauden is ace by me
The prosecution rests its case.
Drop him if you want. I prefer not to have him in the opposition.

But put yourself into South Africa, Ireland, England or Wales shoes, then I think the opinion reverses.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:51 pm**

Turbogoat wrote:
guy smiley wrote:The Chiefs are reinvigorated with Marty MacKenzie at 10.

If that doesn’t thrown conventional thinking on its head then I politely suggest you’re thinking at the opposite end of the spine.
MMac for AB bolter?
Heads would implode, Cats would chase dogs, Planets would collide, AC would lose it completely.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:52 pm**

When does Shag pull the pin on the experiment? RM got very little game time as the "15s at 10" played out. Shag defended DMac at 10 when it was obvious that he was not a real 10. He won't throw BB out easily.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:53 pm**

JB1981 wrote:Barrett's limitations have been clear for a couple of years yet the coaching team talked down Mo'unga's form and have given him very limited opportunities. They have painted themselves into a corner and now have the choice of inexperience but promise or known fraility against decent teams. I would go with Mo'unga but can't see Hansen making that choice. The only way I see Mo'unga taking the spot is injury or Barrett missing a flight.

What will people think of Hansen if Barrett goes missing and costs us a knock out game? Is this the biggest call of his tenure?

Given current evidence, it's hard not to think that if Steve Hansen was coach during the Merthen/Spencer era he would have selected Carlos Spencer as his first choice 10. He clearly values x factor and flair over solidity and game management.

Posted: **Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:54 pm**

RM looked more suited to playing against the NH teams with their constant offside rush defence but I do believe that SH teams really worry about BB more so than RM. I reckon it’ll be horses for courses selection most of the time but RM has got to get more time in the saddle before the big show in Japan.

Posted: **Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:05 am**

Shag has had two years to study the rush defence. I think he has a cunning plan but is keeping his powder dry right now. The ABs generally have a way of surprising their opponents. It'll all be cool.

Barrett will be fine, he will tear up the WC. But Read needs to be replaced as captain. Crotty or Bender would be the man.

Posted: **Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:08 am**

Ali's Choice wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:Agreed on a Savea/Cane/Read trio (whichever order as required) as our strongest option.
This is an anti-Beauden Barrett troll thread. Please stay on topic.

OOohhhh AC coming out of the closet on this one

Currently not confident of a threepeat, but hey as someone said the Duck in 2011, stranger things ....

Posted: **Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:20 am**

Turbogoat wrote:
guy smiley wrote:The Chiefs are reinvigorated with Marty MacKenzie at 10.

If that doesn’t thrown conventional thinking on its head then I politely suggest you’re thinking at the opposite end of the spine.
MMac for AB bolter?
Heads would implode, Cats would chase dogs, Planets would collide.

We live in a world where Cameron is an AB, MMac would just raise a slight shrug. He actually looked good sticking to the basics last week, with DMac playing as a 10 from 15 better than he does when playing as a 10 from 10.

Poor jdog, his anti BB thread has been overshadowed by this one.

Posted: **Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:23 am**

obelixtim wrote:But Read needs to be replaced as captain. Crotty or Bender would be the man.

So you want to replace the established, to-the-manor born leader with a soft-spoken fullback or an injury prone sick note who will be lucky to make it on the field? Instead of, say, the most statistically successful captain of the pro era and commanding presence in the trenches Sam Whitelock?

Posted: **Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:26 am**

Turbogoat wrote:It'll be a true underdog story if the ABs manage to win the RWC this time round.

Too many questions about the team, starting with who is our best 10. The balance of our loose forwards is all outta whack, Read injured yet again may be struggling for match fitness, Cane with a long term injury, God knows who at 6, where to slot in Savea etc...
We don't have the top level depth at this point to cover for inevitable injuries to key players without losing too much quality... it's going to take some careful player management to get to the semis with a full strength team. Having Mo'unga and BBarrett fighting it out is probably a good thing here, they'll both be getting some quality playing time in the earlier games, but we're going to be looking for immediate cover for either of them if they pick up an injury and that'll mean DMac likely getting on the field in knockout rounds...

Yeah. But who’s looking any better? Wales? A lot can happen between now and Japan.

I do agree with the BB dilemma though. And I also thought RM was fairly ordinary in a great Sadist display last night. Unless Shag does something really stupid (unlikely) then the back row issues will sort themselves.

Posted: **Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:30 am**

naki wrote:
obelixtim wrote:But Read needs to be replaced as captain. Crotty or Bender would be the man.
So you want to replace the established, to-the-manor born leader with a soft-spoken fullback or an injury prone sick note who will be lucky to make it on the field? Instead of, say, the most statistically successful captain of the pro era and commanding presence in the trenches Sam Whitelock?

Kieran doing his best Michael Phelps impersonation?

Posted: **Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:31 am**

rett wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:It'll be a true underdog story if the ABs manage to win the RWC this time round.

Too many questions about the team, starting with who is our best 10. The balance of our loose forwards is all outta whack, Read injured yet again may be struggling for match fitness, Cane with a long term injury, God knows who at 6, where to slot in Savea etc...
We don't have the top level depth at this point to cover for inevitable injuries to key players without losing too much quality... it's going to take some careful player management to get to the semis with a full strength team. Having Mo'unga and BBarrett fighting it out is probably a good thing here, they'll both be getting some quality playing time in the earlier games, but we're going to be looking for immediate cover for either of them if they pick up an injury and that'll mean DMac likely getting on the field in knockout rounds...
Yeah. But who’s looking any better? Wales? A lot can happen between now and Japan.

I do agree with the BB dilemma though. And I also thought RM was fairly ordinary in a great Sadist display last night. Unless Shag does something really stupid (unlikely) then the back row issues will sort themselves.

It is true that there are no real form 10s at the moment. Sexton has plummeted (which is what plums do). Farrell can kick and shoulder charge and little else. Foley is mud. Pollard runs hot and cold. BB is BB. When the closest you can come up with at international level is Gareth Anscombe and Dan Biggar, there's definitely a problem.

The real ace 10 right now is probably Finn Russell, and I wouldn't put down any money on him.

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