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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:08 am 
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After a mere 7 years after discovery Tom Hayes goes on trial today.. first person to actually be prosecuted for rate rigging. Kind of defies belief that its gone this long and also sucks that the main beneficiaries of the rigging who I have no doubt knew perfectly well what went on will get away with it scot free. I'm not saying the traders aren't justifiably culpable but as always with these things the biggest crooks will not do a day behind bars.

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A former trader will become the first person to face a judge over allegations of conspiracy to rig the crucial Libor benchmark interest rate, when he goes on trial on Tuesday.

Tom Hayes, a former UBS and Citigroup trader, 35, will appear at Southwark crown court to face charges of conspiring to rig the London interbank offered rate (Libor) – a key benchmark in determining the cost of $450tn (£291tn) worth of borrowing for households and companies.

A total of 21 individuals face similar charges, but Hayes will be the first to stand trial when he appears in court before the high court judge, Mr Justice Cooke.

The case is seen as a crunch test for the Serious Fraud Office, whose reputation has been battered after a series of high-profile mishaps, including the collapse of a costly inquiry and accidentally sending bags of confidential papers to the wrong witness.

Hayes faces eight counts of conspiracy to defraud covering 2006-10, offences that carry a maximum jail sentence of 10 years. He has pleaded not guilty.

The trial, which is expected to last 10-12 weeks, will focus on his activities working for UBS and Citigroup in Tokyo, where he was trading derivatives linked to the Japanese yen. He is accused of conspiring with seven former employees at UBS, two at JP Morgan two at Citigroup and individuals at RBS, Deutsche Bank, Rabobank and HSBC.

Prosecutors allege that Hayes played a central role in the alleged Libor conspiracy. The SFO’s legal team will have to prove that he “dishonestly” made false or misleading submissions to benefit his own trading book, while deliberately disregarding the proper basis for making submissions and prejudicing the economic interest of others, according to the indictment.

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Born in west London, Hayes began his career at the Royal Bank of Scotland, where he worked from 2001-03. He joined UBS in 2006, where he generated $260m for the bank over a three-year period. His success brought him to the attention of headhunters and he was persuaded to join Citigroup in 2010, but left after 10 months.

The former trader, who lives in Surrey, has been described by acquaintances as shy, gifted and socially awkward. Although he almost certainly once earned a six-figure salary, he now receives legal aid to pay his lawyers’ bills. He was arrested by the SFO in December 2012, shortly before receiving an indictment from the US Department of Justice, which is still pending.

The case will revisit the frantic days of the 2008 financial crisis, when banks stopped lending to each other. At that time the Libor system was administered by the lobbying group the British Bankers’ Association , arrangements later described as “a fox guarding the henhouse”.

Banks have been fined billions by regulators to settle Libor cases, while several senior bankers lost their jobs over the scandal. Most recently Deutsche Bank was fined a record $2.5bn (£1.7bn) for rigging Libor, coming after penalties for Barclays, UBS, Rabobank and the broker RP Martin.



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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:15 am 
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7 years lol
what a corrupt system


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:16 am 
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Set him free!


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:33 am 
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Chiselling City wankers were only taking lessons in morality from this lot.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32879571


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:36 am 
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the biggest crooks will not do a day behind bars


Beautiful...that ought to be the motto of the banking industry.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:36 am 
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Let's hope there is a bridge in London free with his name on it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:38 am 
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Are any Irish football clubs looking for a new CEO?


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:52 am 
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Any bookies in this trial hkcj? The true victims obviously. ;)


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:55 am 
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HCKJ - the biggest crooks will not be behind bars but that's like other dishonest industries or trades - e.g. drug dealing networks - it doesn't mean the foot soldiers etc shouldn't be held to account.

Hopefully it shakes the ethical banking tree back to life a little but i suspect not.

KG


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:03 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Any bookies in this trial hkcj? The true victims obviously. ;)



yes mate but its Icap wnkers so throw them to the wolves I say! I think they have 3 guys up next then there's a couple of guys from RP Martins also coming up. The guys at Icap I don't feel sorry for at all really was purely greed but the ones at RPs I do have some sympathy for. Good guys and caught between a rock and a hard place but they took the wrong option and definitely need to do some jail time.

KG - I'm not saying they should get off just lamenting the fact that they will end up with the sentences that their superiors should have had. None of the prosecutions in any of this rate rigging business really strikes at the heart of the problem for me. Just as foot soldiers in a drug cartel will be replaced and they will carry out heinous acts so the arrests of low level guys will not change how things are done too drastically.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:04 am 
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He joined UBS in 2006, where he generated $260m for the bank over a three-year period.


What would bonus payments for this type of performance be?


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:05 am 
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Dryden wrote:
Quote:
He joined UBS in 2006, where he generated $260m for the bank over a three-year period.


What would bonus payments for this type of performance be?



As its a bank franchise product I'd suspect between 0.5 and 2% depending on so many factors.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:10 am 
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Dryden wrote:
Quote:
He joined UBS in 2006, where he generated $260m for the bank over a three-year period.


What would bonus payments for this type of performance be?



Nowhere near what you would think in terms of percentage and what he could have earned if he was at a hedge fund. I have had chats in the pub with him and he was very miffed with his UBS compensation which is why he joined Citibank. Goldmans offered him a $5m hello to join them I think at one time but it fell through (think this was after GS suspected he might be involved in something dodgy). The funny thing is he is an immensely clever guy and the vast majority of the money he made was totally unrelated to any Libor shenanigans. His mucking about what totally unnecessary but he is a bit of a rainman and was always trying to maximise everything. He treated the brokers like absolute scum though, even those he liked and there will definitely be a big party in Tokyo if/when he goes down.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:12 am 
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HKCJ wrote:
Dryden wrote:
Quote:
He joined UBS in 2006, where he generated $260m for the bank over a three-year period.


What would bonus payments for this type of performance be?



Nowhere near what you would think in terms of percentage and what he could have earned if he was at a hedge fund. I have had chats in the pub with him and he was very miffed with his UBS compensation which is why he joined Citibank. Goldmans offered him a $5m hello to join them I think at one time but it fell through (think this was after GS suspected he might be involved in something dodgy). The funny thing is he is an immensely clever guy and the vast majority of the money he made was totally unrelated to any Libor shenanigans. His mucking about what totally unnecessary but he is a bit of a rainman and was always trying to maximise everything. He treated the brokers like absolute scum though, even those he liked and there will definitely be a big party in Tokyo if/when he goes down.



He deserves to be fried then, plus you often find the traders that treat brokers badly are up to something.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:15 am 
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Yep a real bully on the line which is very odd when you met him outside of work.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:21 am 
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HKCJ wrote:
Yep a real bully on the line which is very odd when you met him outside of work.



I got to the stage where I stopped dealing with those types, got accused of threatening a trader once (to my owners), all I did was ask the guy to meet me for a coffee and see if his judgement of me being a retarded plum was valid.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:23 am 
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I'd love to see Ben Clarkes accounts give him grief.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:28 am 
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HKCJ wrote:
I'd love to see Ben Clarkes accounts give him grief.



Or big norm Hadleys when he worked at cantors.... Actually wints didn't put up with much shit either.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:30 am 
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bimboman wrote:
HKCJ wrote:
I'd love to see Ben Clarkes accounts give him grief.



Or big norm Hadleys when he worked at cantors.... Actually wints didn't put up with much shit either.



I think Norm is still at Deutsche in Tokyo. Always amusing to see him clutching a little Japanese sized beer glass.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:36 am 
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HKCJ wrote:
bimboman wrote:
HKCJ wrote:
I'd love to see Ben Clarkes accounts give him grief.



Or big norm Hadleys when he worked at cantors.... Actually wints didn't put up with much shit either.



I think Norm is still at Deutsche in Tokyo. Always amusing to see him clutching a little Japanese sized beer glass.



:thumbup: , having drunk with him a few times and being a bit of midget myself I can't imagine how he looks in Tokyo, a pint glass looks like a half ....


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:36 am 
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TIL that a trader and a broker aint the same thing...


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:38 am 
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Dryden wrote:
TIL that a trader and a broker aint the same thing...



Not in the term were discussing, traders are generally brokers clients.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:40 am 
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Pity they don't do trial by ordeal any more.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 12:28 pm 
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c69 wrote:
Pity they don't do trial by ordeal any more.


I worked at GOSH when the 'baby p' issue occurred - did you say the same thing about misuse of trust and ethics then?

That comes across as a bit sanctimonious C69.

KG


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:18 am 
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Bimbo/ TSG have you been following the Tom Hayes trial much? Am amazed at a few of the things that have been coming out. The UBS manual on how to fix libor :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:51 am 
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HKCJ wrote:
Bimbo/ TSG have you been following the Tom Hayes trial much? Am amazed at a few of the things that have been coming out. The UBS manual on how to fix libor :lol:


I haven't really mate....I must catch up with it but I know the more I read the more I will get pissed off.
Regarding Hayes, I met him in London when he was at RBS and he made zero impression on me. The next time we met he was at UBS and I thought he was one of the biggest pricks I have ever met, and I have met most of the big pricks over the years......I know what you mean about a bookies party when he gets sent down.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:56 am 
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I don't know any of these guys (I don't really know any phone monkeys ) but I always feel sorry for anyone caught up in one of these "normalised" crimes. Frankly every market participant and every regulator knew this was going on but everyone turned a blind eye to it. How many people would bet that they wouldn't have gone with the flow on this. Hopefully they will focus on the guys who really kicked the arse out of it or were bullying others into doing it on their behalf.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:57 am 
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Too big to fail - too big to jail.

To suggest no one senior knew of this shows that not only are the markets rigged but the legal system is too.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:58 am 
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Biggest miscarriage of justice since Mandela was sent to Robben Island.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:01 am 
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kiwinoz wrote:
Too big to fail - too big to jail.

To suggest no one senior knew of this shows that not only are the markets rigged but the legal system is too.

Proving white collar crime beyond a reasonable doubt is often impossible. You'd need a rake of rats to convict all potentially involved.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:10 am 
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The Sun God wrote:
HKCJ wrote:
Bimbo/ TSG have you been following the Tom Hayes trial much? Am amazed at a few of the things that have been coming out. The UBS manual on how to fix libor :lol:


I haven't really mate....I must catch up with it but I know the more I read the more I will get pissed off.
Regarding Hayes, I met him in London when he was at RBS and he made zero impression on me. The next time we met he was at UBS and I thought he was one of the biggest pricks I have ever met, and I have met most of the big pricks over the years......I know what you mean about a bookies party when he gets sent down.



Yeah I worked with him in his early days and everyone was a little surprised when he turned up in Tokyo swinging the bat and making waves like he did. He had been tinned from RBS for allegedly mismarking the turn only a few years in then went to RBC in some anonymous IT type role. All of a sudden he is the biggest yen trader in Tokyo. I did hear he was once asked by a sales guy to take some hedge fund clients out and he took them to Burger King... :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:13 am 
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kiwinoz wrote:
Too big to fail - too big to jail.

To suggest no one senior knew of this shows that not only are the markets rigged but the legal system is too.


Who is suggesting that ?........It was always common knowledge that when a major player had a swap or FRA fixing that the LIBOR would move their way just before the fix so of course senior managers knew of this but they are removed from the paper/tape trail so harder to prove.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:15 am 
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anonymous_joe wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:
Too big to fail - too big to jail.

To suggest no one senior knew of this shows that not only are the markets rigged but the legal system is too.

Proving white collar crime beyond a reasonable doubt is often impossible. You'd need a rake of rats to convict all potentially involved.


Only in Ireland. Jurisdictions, that bother their bollox, can usually get convictions easily enough.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:20 am 
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HKCJ wrote:
The Sun God wrote:
HKCJ wrote:
Bimbo/ TSG have you been following the Tom Hayes trial much? Am amazed at a few of the things that have been coming out. The UBS manual on how to fix libor :lol:


I haven't really mate....I must catch up with it but I know the more I read the more I will get pissed off.
Regarding Hayes, I met him in London when he was at RBS and he made zero impression on me. The next time we met he was at UBS and I thought he was one of the biggest pricks I have ever met, and I have met most of the big pricks over the years......I know what you mean about a bookies party when he gets sent down.



Yeah I worked with him in his early days and everyone was a little surprised when he turned up in Tokyo swinging the bat and making waves like he did. He had been tinned from RBS for allegedly mismarking the turn only a few years in then went to RBC in some anonymous IT type role. All of a sudden he is the biggest yen trader in Tokyo. I did hear he was once asked by a sales guy to take some hedge fund clients out and he took them to Burger King... :lol:

If he had taken me to a BK I would have shoved a Chicken Royale up his arse.
I knew guys like him in the States and quite a few in Dublin also.......All of them have been found out over the years to be the narcissistic, arrogant twats we though them to be from the get go.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:18 pm 
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The Sun God wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:
Too big to fail - too big to jail.

To suggest no one senior knew of this shows that not only are the markets rigged but the legal system is too.

Proving white collar crime beyond a reasonable doubt is often impossible. You'd need a rake of rats to convict all potentially involved.


Only in Ireland. Jurisdictions, that bother their bollox, can usually get convictions easily enough.

Nah, more easily than us, but still isn't easy. If you want.it to.happen it will, which may well be the problem here. But it's a much different standard to apply in comparison to a normal crime.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:27 pm 
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anonymous_joe wrote:
The Sun God wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:
Too big to fail - too big to jail.

To suggest no one senior knew of this shows that not only are the markets rigged but the legal system is too.

Proving white collar crime beyond a reasonable doubt is often impossible. You'd need a rake of rats to convict all potentially involved.


Only in Ireland. Jurisdictions, that bother their bollox, can usually get convictions easily enough.

Nah, more easily than us, but still isn't easy. If you want.it to.happen it will, which may well be the problem here. But it's a much different standard to apply in comparison to a normal crime.

Lets come back to this when we see a) the verdict and b) the sentence of the 3 amigoes currently going through their ordeal in the 4 gold mines.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:51 pm 
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HKCJ wrote:
After a mere 7 years after discovery Tom Hayes goes on trial today.. first person to actually be prosecuted for rate rigging. Kind of defies belief that its gone this long and also sucks that the main beneficiaries of the rigging who I have no doubt knew perfectly well what went on will get away with it scot free. I'm not saying the traders aren't justifiably culpable but as always with these things the biggest crooks will not do a day behind bars.

Quote:
A former trader will become the first person to face a judge over allegations of conspiracy to rig the crucial Libor benchmark interest rate, when he goes on trial on Tuesday.

Tom Hayes, a former UBS and Citigroup trader, 35, will appear at Southwark crown court to face charges of conspiring to rig the London interbank offered rate (Libor) – a key benchmark in determining the cost of $450tn (£291tn) worth of borrowing for households and companies.

A total of 21 individuals face similar charges, but Hayes will be the first to stand trial when he appears in court before the high court judge, Mr Justice Cooke.

The case is seen as a crunch test for the Serious Fraud Office, whose reputation has been battered after a series of high-profile mishaps, including the collapse of a costly inquiry and accidentally sending bags of confidential papers to the wrong witness.

Hayes faces eight counts of conspiracy to defraud covering 2006-10, offences that carry a maximum jail sentence of 10 years. He has pleaded not guilty.

The trial, which is expected to last 10-12 weeks, will focus on his activities working for UBS and Citigroup in Tokyo, where he was trading derivatives linked to the Japanese yen. He is accused of conspiring with seven former employees at UBS, two at JP Morgan two at Citigroup and individuals at RBS, Deutsche Bank, Rabobank and HSBC.

Prosecutors allege that Hayes played a central role in the alleged Libor conspiracy. The SFO’s legal team will have to prove that he “dishonestly” made false or misleading submissions to benefit his own trading book, while deliberately disregarding the proper basis for making submissions and prejudicing the economic interest of others, according to the indictment.

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Born in west London, Hayes began his career at the Royal Bank of Scotland, where he worked from 2001-03. He joined UBS in 2006, where he generated $260m for the bank over a three-year period. His success brought him to the attention of headhunters and he was persuaded to join Citigroup in 2010, but left after 10 months.

The former trader, who lives in Surrey, has been described by acquaintances as shy, gifted and socially awkward. Although he almost certainly once earned a six-figure salary, he now receives legal aid to pay his lawyers’ bills. He was arrested by the SFO in December 2012, shortly before receiving an indictment from the US Department of Justice, which is still pending.

The case will revisit the frantic days of the 2008 financial crisis, when banks stopped lending to each other. At that time the Libor system was administered by the lobbying group the British Bankers’ Association , arrangements later described as “a fox guarding the henhouse”.

Banks have been fined billions by regulators to settle Libor cases, while several senior bankers lost their jobs over the scandal. Most recently Deutsche Bank was fined a record $2.5bn (£1.7bn) for rigging Libor, coming after penalties for Barclays, UBS, Rabobank and the broker RP Martin.


What is further annoying is that the knut is on Legal aid! I was turned down for legal aid over a legitimate case I hahe time unable to afford a lawyer. Why has this guy not sold his house in Esher?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:52 pm 
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HKCJ wrote:
After a mere 7 years after discovery Tom Hayes goes on trial today.. first person to actually be prosecuted for rate rigging. Kind of defies belief that its gone this long and also sucks that the main beneficiaries of the rigging who I have no doubt knew perfectly well what went on will get away with it scot free. I'm not saying the traders aren't justifiably culpable but as always with these things the biggest crooks will not do a day behind bars.

Quote:
A former trader will become the first person to face a judge over allegations of conspiracy to rig the crucial Libor benchmark interest rate, when he goes on trial on Tuesday.

Tom Hayes, a former UBS and Citigroup trader, 35, will appear at Southwark crown court to face charges of conspiring to rig the London interbank offered rate (Libor) – a key benchmark in determining the cost of $450tn (£291tn) worth of borrowing for households and companies.

A total of 21 individuals face similar charges, but Hayes will be the first to stand trial when he appears in court before the high court judge, Mr Justice Cooke.

The case is seen as a crunch test for the Serious Fraud Office, whose reputation has been battered after a series of high-profile mishaps, including the collapse of a costly inquiry and accidentally sending bags of confidential papers to the wrong witness.

Hayes faces eight counts of conspiracy to defraud covering 2006-10, offences that carry a maximum jail sentence of 10 years. He has pleaded not guilty.

The trial, which is expected to last 10-12 weeks, will focus on his activities working for UBS and Citigroup in Tokyo, where he was trading derivatives linked to the Japanese yen. He is accused of conspiring with seven former employees at UBS, two at JP Morgan two at Citigroup and individuals at RBS, Deutsche Bank, Rabobank and HSBC.

Prosecutors allege that Hayes played a central role in the alleged Libor conspiracy. The SFO’s legal team will have to prove that he “dishonestly” made false or misleading submissions to benefit his own trading book, while deliberately disregarding the proper basis for making submissions and prejudicing the economic interest of others, according to the indictment.

Advertisement

Born in west London, Hayes began his career at the Royal Bank of Scotland, where he worked from 2001-03. He joined UBS in 2006, where he generated $260m for the bank over a three-year period. His success brought him to the attention of headhunters and he was persuaded to join Citigroup in 2010, but left after 10 months.

The former trader, who lives in Surrey, has been described by acquaintances as shy, gifted and socially awkward. Although he almost certainly once earned a six-figure salary, he now receives legal aid to pay his lawyers’ bills. He was arrested by the SFO in December 2012, shortly before receiving an indictment from the US Department of Justice, which is still pending.

The case will revisit the frantic days of the 2008 financial crisis, when banks stopped lending to each other. At that time the Libor system was administered by the lobbying group the British Bankers’ Association , arrangements later described as “a fox guarding the henhouse”.

Banks have been fined billions by regulators to settle Libor cases, while several senior bankers lost their jobs over the scandal. Most recently Deutsche Bank was fined a record $2.5bn (£1.7bn) for rigging Libor, coming after penalties for Barclays, UBS, Rabobank and the broker RP Martin.


What is further annoying is that the knut is on Legal aid! I was turned down for legal aid over a legitimate case I had at the time unable to afford a lawyer. Why has this guy not sold his house in Esher?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:50 pm 
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The Sun God wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
The Sun God wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:
Too big to fail - too big to jail.

To suggest no one senior knew of this shows that not only are the markets rigged but the legal system is too.

Proving white collar crime beyond a reasonable doubt is often impossible. You'd need a rake of rats to convict all potentially involved.


Only in Ireland. Jurisdictions, that bother their bollox, can usually get convictions easily enough.

Nah, more easily than us, but still isn't easy. If you want.it to.happen it will, which may well be the problem here. But it's a much different standard to apply in comparison to a normal crime.

Lets come back to this when we see a) the verdict and b) the sentence of the 3 amigoes currently going through their ordeal in the 4 gold mines.

Criminal trials don't happen there anymore. :((


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:11 am 
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Thankfully, I wouldn't know AJ.


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