All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

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kiwigreg369
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

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7 I think (google search)
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wamberal
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by wamberal »

kiwigreg369 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:16 am 7 I think (google search)
That would be hard to beat. Tonga might just have to settle for a worthy second. Incidentally, I worked in Tonga with a man who was heavily involved with the Free Wesleyan Church, he told me that King Tupou IV bitterly regretted allowing the Mormons into Tonga.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by Harveys »

The Optimist wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:19 am Kefu and Izzy two great players.

As a half Samoan and ex Mormon I understand their indoctrination into an ancient cult. As a christian and someone capable of logical thinking... fvck the bigots.

Love Tongans, have to accept different cultures, that is what makes the world so interesting.
What were Tongans position on the issue before the colonisers and missionaries spread the “Good news”
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Peteray
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by Peteray »

I'm not ashamed to say that I grew up homophobic, I think because I was scared. But my mindset changed when my younger brother 'came out' on national TV in the 1960's, without ever talking to any of the family. It turned out he was scared of being thrashed by Dad, which would never have happened but people were fairly entrenched in their thinking in those days. It took me along time to 'understand' the gay perspective, and I'm not certain I do now, or that I want to fully understand. But as with all people now, I respect their right to live as they wish. Who am I to determine someone else's life path?
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by towny »

Harveys wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:46 pm
The Optimist wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:19 am Kefu and Izzy two great players.

As a half Samoan and ex Mormon I understand their indoctrination into an ancient cult. As a christian and someone capable of logical thinking... fvck the bigots.

Love Tongans, have to accept different cultures, that is what makes the world so interesting.
What were Tongans position on the issue before the colonisers and missionaries spread the “Good news”
How old do you think this bloke is?
free_safety
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by free_safety »

Peteray wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:09 pm I'm not ashamed to say that I grew up homophobic, I think because I was scared. But my mindset changed when my younger brother 'came out' on national TV in the 1960's, without ever talking to any of the family. It turned out he was scared of being thrashed by Dad, which would never have happened but people were fairly entrenched in their thinking in those days. It took me along time to 'understand' the gay perspective, and I'm not certain I do now, or that I want to fully understand. But as with all people now, I respect their right to live as they wish. Who am I to determine someone else's life path?
There is not much perspective to understand. Some people are born gay just like some people are born left handed, some are born with high metabolism, some are born predisposed alcoholism, some have a very high lung capacity and so forth. Its the human condition.
free_safety
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by free_safety »

Harden up!!! wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:17 am Australian UFC star Tai Tuivasa has slammed Israel Folau for his hypocrisy, claiming he has seen the under-fire superstar "blind as a skunk" on a night out.

The heavyweight fighter joined the chorus of athletes condemning Folau's homophobic comments, saying he needed "a hiding".

"I know what I've seen that idiot do when he's out and about"," Tuivasa told the Daily Telegraph.

"I've seen you out blind as a skunk carrying on now you wanna be all churchy?

This is the crux of the issue. Most people who condemn gays, just use religion as cover for the fact that they hate guys. The Bible also forbids myriad other transgressions like divorce. But nobody condemns divorcees.
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wamberal
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by wamberal »

free_safety wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Harden up!!! wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:17 am Australian UFC star Tai Tuivasa has slammed Israel Folau for his hypocrisy, claiming he has seen the under-fire superstar "blind as a skunk" on a night out.

The heavyweight fighter joined the chorus of athletes condemning Folau's homophobic comments, saying he needed "a hiding".

"I know what I've seen that idiot do when he's out and about"," Tuivasa told the Daily Telegraph.

"I've seen you out blind as a skunk carrying on now you wanna be all churchy?

This is the crux of the issue. Most people who condemn gays, just use religion as cover for the fact that they hate guys. The Bible also forbids myriad other transgressions like divorce. But nobody condemns divorcees.
Not to mention that we cannot eat prawns.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by Harveys »

towny wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:07 pm
Harveys wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:46 pm
The Optimist wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:19 am Kefu and Izzy two great players.

As a half Samoan and ex Mormon I understand their indoctrination into an ancient cult. As a christian and someone capable of logical thinking... fvck the bigots.

Love Tongans, have to accept different cultures, that is what makes the world so interesting.
What were Tongans position on the issue before the colonisers and missionaries spread the “Good news”
How old do you think this bloke is?
Sometimes I wonder how old you are.

Were Tongans bigoted towards homosexuality before the cultural indoctrination of Christianity?

Just seems ironic the culture that created and imposed the bigotry is now passing judgment on it.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by UncleFB »

Harveys wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:43 pm
towny wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:07 pm
Harveys wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:46 pm
The Optimist wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:19 am Kefu and Izzy two great players.

As a half Samoan and ex Mormon I understand their indoctrination into an ancient cult. As a christian and someone capable of logical thinking... fvck the bigots.

Love Tongans, have to accept different cultures, that is what makes the world so interesting.
What were Tongans position on the issue before the colonisers and missionaries spread the “Good news”
How old do you think this bloke is?
Sometimes I wonder how old you are.

Were Tongans bigoted towards homosexuality before the cultural indoctrination of Christianity?

Just seems ironic the culture that created and imposed the bigotry is now passing judgment on it.
I kind of see what you're getting at, but the culture now is not really the culture that created and imposed the bigotry. Culture does not remain static.

But to your point about whether Tongan's were bigoted towards homosexuality, this is actually interesting, I wonder if any of our PR Tongans are knowledgeable about this and can fill us in?
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by ElementFreak »

Peteray wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:09 pm It took me along time to 'understand' the gay perspective, and I'm not certain I do now, or that I want to fully understand. But as with all people now, I respect their right to live as they wish. Who am I to determine someone else's life path?
What's to understand? For example if you have a certain 'type' that you find attractive, blondes, brunettes, blue eyes, grean eyes, great legs, big boobs etc. It's just that gay people see those things in their own gender. Shouldn't be hard to wrap your tiny mind around.
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Harveys
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by Harveys »

UncleFB wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:41 am
Harveys wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:43 pm
towny wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:07 pm
Harveys wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:46 pm
The Optimist wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:19 am Kefu and Izzy two great players.

As a half Samoan and ex Mormon I understand their indoctrination into an ancient cult. As a christian and someone capable of logical thinking... fvck the bigots.

Love Tongans, have to accept different cultures, that is what makes the world so interesting.
What were Tongans position on the issue before the colonisers and missionaries spread the “Good news”
How old do you think this bloke is?
Sometimes I wonder how old you are.

Were Tongans bigoted towards homosexuality before the cultural indoctrination of Christianity?

Just seems ironic the culture that created and imposed the bigotry is now passing judgment on it.
I kind of see what you're getting at, but the culture now is not really the culture that created and imposed the bigotry. Culture does not remain static.

But to your point about whether Tongan's were bigoted towards homosexuality, this is actually interesting, I wonder if any of our PR Tongans are knowledgeable about this and can fill us in?

Yea I get it, when do we get to cancel Christianity or at least force an update to their fairy tail.

I read that in the US Christianity has dipped below 49% of the population from a high of 70% last decade.
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wamberal
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by wamberal »

UncleFB wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:41 am
Harveys wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:43 pm
towny wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:07 pm
Harveys wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:46 pm
The Optimist wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:19 am Kefu and Izzy two great players.

As a half Samoan and ex Mormon I understand their indoctrination into an ancient cult. As a christian and someone capable of logical thinking... fvck the bigots.

Love Tongans, have to accept different cultures, that is what makes the world so interesting.
What were Tongans position on the issue before the colonisers and missionaries spread the “Good news”
How old do you think this bloke is?
Sometimes I wonder how old you are.

Were Tongans bigoted towards homosexuality before the cultural indoctrination of Christianity?

Just seems ironic the culture that created and imposed the bigotry is now passing judgment on it.
I kind of see what you're getting at, but the culture now is not really the culture that created and imposed the bigotry. Culture does not remain static.

But to your point about whether Tongan's were bigoted towards homosexuality, this is actually interesting, I wonder if any of our PR Tongans are knowledgeable about this and can fill us in?
I am aware that some of the fiercest opposition to the acceptance of same sex relationships, and marriage, within the Uniting Church in Australia came from First Nations and PI members.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by UncleFB »

wamberal wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:50 am
UncleFB wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:41 am
Harveys wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:43 pm
towny wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:07 pm
Harveys wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:46 pm

What were Tongans position on the issue before the colonisers and missionaries spread the “Good news”
How old do you think this bloke is?
Sometimes I wonder how old you are.

Were Tongans bigoted towards homosexuality before the cultural indoctrination of Christianity?

Just seems ironic the culture that created and imposed the bigotry is now passing judgment on it.
I kind of see what you're getting at, but the culture now is not really the culture that created and imposed the bigotry. Culture does not remain static.

But to your point about whether Tongan's were bigoted towards homosexuality, this is actually interesting, I wonder if any of our PR Tongans are knowledgeable about this and can fill us in?
I am aware that some of the fiercest opposition to the acceptance of same sex relationships, and marriage, within the Uniting Church in Australia came from First Nations and PI members.
Yeah, but we're musing on what they thought before the arrival of the missionaries. We all know that many of the PIs are currently big believers in the sky fairy. But less than 200 years ago most of them believed in multiple sky fairies. Did these multiple sky fairies hate the gays like the Abrahamic sky fairy or were they a bit more balanced?
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Ted.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

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ElementFreak wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:56 am
Peteray wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:09 pm It took me along time to 'understand' the gay perspective, and I'm not certain I do now, or that I want to fully understand. But as with all people now, I respect their right to live as they wish. Who am I to determine someone else's life path?
What's to understand? For example if you have a certain 'type' that you find attractive, blondes, brunettes, blue eyes, grean eyes, great legs, big boobs etc. It's just that gay people see those things in their own gender. Shouldn't be hard to wrap your tiny mind around.
Hmm, is that not dissimilar to being judgmental of people educated and raised in a different era with different mores and standards of behaviour and probably with a larger proportion of the population inculcated with stricter religious 'values', who has nevertheless has had a fair crack at understanding a, to them, foreign way of life and what was possibly taught to them as immoral, even evil behaviour.

Maybe, they've done pretty well and would be better served, they and you, by some leadership and words encouragement.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by jambanja »

Ted. wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:37 am
ElementFreak wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:56 am
Peteray wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:09 pm It took me along time to 'understand' the gay perspective, and I'm not certain I do now, or that I want to fully understand. But as with all people now, I respect their right to live as they wish. Who am I to determine someone else's life path?
What's to understand? For example if you have a certain 'type' that you find attractive, blondes, brunettes, blue eyes, grean eyes, great legs, big boobs etc. It's just that gay people see those things in their own gender. Shouldn't be hard to wrap your tiny mind around.
Hmm, is that not dissimilar to being judgmental of people educated and raised in a different era with different mores and standards of behaviour and probably with a larger proportion of the population inculcated with stricter religious 'values', who has nevertheless has had a fair crack at understanding a, to them, foreign way of life and what was possibly taught to them as immoral, even evil behaviour.

Maybe, they've done pretty well and would be better served, they and you, by some leadership and words encouragement.
This
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wamberal
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by wamberal »

UncleFB wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:11 am
Yeah, but we're musing on what they thought before the arrival of the missionaries. We all know that many of the PIs are currently big believers in the sky fairy. But less than 200 years ago most of them believed in multiple sky fairies. Did these multiple sky fairies hate the gays like the Abrahamic sky fairy or were they a bit more balanced?
Here's the thing. Actually, there is remarkably scant mention of homosexuality in the biblical texts. Jesus said nothing on the subject. Indeed, Jesus was unmarried, which for a man aged 30 was errr a bit unusual. And at the risk of quoting biblical texts out of context, in the final chapters of the Gospel according to John, Jesus is on the cross. In verses 26 and 27 of Chapter 19 "Jesus saw his mother and the disciple he loved standing there; so he said to his mother 'he is your son'" The disciple he loved, eh?

Further, enlightened scholars believe that it was actually the presence of male prostitutes in the temple surrounds which was being condemned in the tiny collection of verses which are usually used to attack same sex relationships.

In other words, it is all a beat up.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by piquant »

wamberal wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:23 pm
free_safety wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Harden up!!! wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:17 am Australian UFC star Tai Tuivasa has slammed Israel Folau for his hypocrisy, claiming he has seen the under-fire superstar "blind as a skunk" on a night out.

The heavyweight fighter joined the chorus of athletes condemning Folau's homophobic comments, saying he needed "a hiding".

"I know what I've seen that idiot do when he's out and about"," Tuivasa told the Daily Telegraph.

"I've seen you out blind as a skunk carrying on now you wanna be all churchy?

This is the crux of the issue. Most people who condemn gays, just use religion as cover for the fact that they hate guys. The Bible also forbids myriad other transgressions like divorce. But nobody condemns divorcees.
Not to mention that we cannot eat prawns.
Technically you couldn't have a glass of water. Somehow many survive this limitation, perhaps they just lack the faith to test their scripture
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Harveys
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by Harveys »

wamberal wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:53 am
UncleFB wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:11 am
Yeah, but we're musing on what they thought before the arrival of the missionaries. We all know that many of the PIs are currently big believers in the sky fairy. But less than 200 years ago most of them believed in multiple sky fairies. Did these multiple sky fairies hate the gays like the Abrahamic sky fairy or were they a bit more balanced?
Here's the thing. Actually, there is remarkably scant mention of homosexuality in the biblical texts. Jesus said nothing on the subject. Indeed, Jesus was unmarried, which for a man aged 30 was errr a bit unusual. And at the risk of quoting biblical texts out of context, in the final chapters of the Gospel according to John, Jesus is on the cross. In verses 26 and 27 of Chapter 19 "Jesus saw his mother and the disciple he loved standing there; so he said to his mother 'he is your son'" The disciple he loved, eh?

Further, enlightened scholars believe that it was actually the presence of male prostitutes in the temple surrounds which was being condemned in the tiny collection of verses which are usually used to attack same sex relationships.

In other words, it is all a beat up.

It is a beat up but unfortunately that’s largely irrelevant as I’ve had the unfortunate experience of being in a church when a passionate sermon on it was being delivered. It even got shouty, I took my daughter and walked out.

Re the other bit, its not cannon but I think it’s the gospel of Philip said Mary Magdalene was Jesus favourite disciple and he kissed her often on the lips.
I’m not into any of it but by and large the Thomas Gospel is the most interesting and palatable, as like the Tao Te Ching it’s just a collection of sayings or quotes with no silly narrative.
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Ted.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by Ted. »

piquant wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:17 am
wamberal wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:23 pm
free_safety wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Harden up!!! wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:17 am Australian UFC star Tai Tuivasa has slammed Israel Folau for his hypocrisy, claiming he has seen the under-fire superstar "blind as a skunk" on a night out.

The heavyweight fighter joined the chorus of athletes condemning Folau's homophobic comments, saying he needed "a hiding".

"I know what I've seen that idiot do when he's out and about"," Tuivasa told the Daily Telegraph.

"I've seen you out blind as a skunk carrying on now you wanna be all churchy?

This is the crux of the issue. Most people who condemn gays, just use religion as cover for the fact that they hate guys. The Bible also forbids myriad other transgressions like divorce. But nobody condemns divorcees.
Not to mention that we cannot eat prawns.
Technically you couldn't have a glass of water. Somehow many survive this limitation, perhaps they just lack the faith to test their scripture
It was not so long ago that this was certainly not the case. It's also cannot be said to even universal in the western world, with bigotry and prejudice still rife, let alone many non-western societies.
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wamberal
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by wamberal »

Harveys wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:18 am


It is a beat up but unfortunately that’s largely irrelevant as I’ve had the unfortunate experience of being in a church when a passionate sermon on it was being delivered. It even got shouty, I took my daughter and walked out.
Very sad business. The only thing I would say is that there are some congregations where people of all persuasions are safe.
Re the other bit, its not cannon but I think it’s the gospel of Philip said Mary Magdalene was Jesus favourite disciple and he kissed her often on the lips.
I’m not into any of it but by and large the Thomas Gospel is the most interesting and palatable, as like the Tao Te Ching it’s just a collection of sayings or quotes with no silly narrative.
At the end of the day there is a mystery (as a friend of mine said, he is a well respected theologian); this was a general comment, not specific to this overblown issue.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by towny »

It’s also funny that no one is screaming about people working on Sunday/Saturday - isn’t that one of the big sins?!
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by Brumbie_Steve »

Late 60s, early 70s you weren't allowed to start childrens' sports till after 12. No Sunday adult sports. Lots of restrictions based on religious taboos. DIvorcees were very much pariahs in the same time frame and divorces weren't that easy to get either.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by wamberal »

towny wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:09 pm It’s also funny that no one is screaming about people working on Sunday/Saturday - isn’t that one of the big sins?!
Sunday observance is still the go in Tonga. When I was working there as a volunteer, I was asked what could be done to improve economic growth. I said that just lifting the Sunday observance restrictions would lift their gross national product by a significant percentage.

Bread shops were open, no other businesses (although resorts for tourists operated fairly normally). Even exercising on Sundays was frowned upon.

Also worth googling the Tongan word "fakaleiti". Fakaleiti are assigned male gender at birth, but grows up with a "feminine gender expression". Can be a bit of an eye-opener for the newcomer. Some look very errr attractive, until you look down and see their huge masculine plates of meat.

The "gender expression" does not necessarily extend to sexuality, apparently. But who knows? I certainly don't. :yawn:
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by Peteray »

free_safety wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:43 pm
Peteray wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:09 pm I'm not ashamed to say that I grew up homophobic, I think because I was scared. But my mindset changed when my younger brother 'came out' on national TV in the 1960's, without ever talking to any of the family. It turned out he was scared of being thrashed by Dad, which would never have happened but people were fairly entrenched in their thinking in those days. It took me along time to 'understand' the gay perspective, and I'm not certain I do now, or that I want to fully understand. But as with all people now, I respect their right to live as they wish. Who am I to determine someone else's life path?
There is not much perspective to understand. Some people are born gay just like some people are born left handed, some are born with high metabolism, some are born predisposed alcoholism, some have a very high lung capacity and so forth. Its the human condition.
To my way of thinking, trying to understand other perspectives, whether sexuality, religion, or whatever, is what steers me away from bigotry. I've been wrong before but...
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by towny »

wamberal wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:50 pm
towny wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:09 pm It’s also funny that no one is screaming about people working on Sunday/Saturday - isn’t that one of the big sins?!
Sunday observance is still the go in Tonga. When I was working there as a volunteer, I was asked what could be done to improve economic growth. I said that just lifting the Sunday observance restrictions would lift their gross national product by a significant percentage.

Bread shops were open, no other businesses (although resorts for tourists operated fairly normally). Even exercising on Sundays was frowned upon.

Also worth googling the Tongan word "fakaleiti". Fakaleiti are assigned male gender at birth, but grows up with a "feminine gender expression". Can be a bit of an eye-opener for the newcomer. Some look very errr attractive, until you look down and see their huge masculine plates of meat.

The "gender expression" does not necessarily extend to sexuality, apparently. But who knows? I certainly don't. :yawn:
Folau never spoke out about it on social media and I can’t recall many Tongan players in the NRL skipping Sunday games or rugby players skipping Sunday recovery sessions.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by Harveys »

Isn’t all that stuff old testament Hebrew Religion anyway?
I thought Jesus rebelled against that somewhat.
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Re: All Black LIKED Folau's homophobic post.

Post by wamberal »

Harveys wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:34 am Isn’t all that stuff old testament Hebrew Religion anyway?
I thought Jesus rebelled against that somewhat.
I think it was more that Jesus rebelled against the hypocrisy of the religious leaders of the day. But anybody who approaches the gospels with an open mind would have to admit that Jesus cared a helluva lot more for the poor and dispossessed than he did for following rules.


The problem is that it is possible to prove just about anything with a selective quote from the scriptures. Fundamentalists are always biblical literalists, which means that they can park their brains at the door and give vent to their prejudices. Science? What's that?
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