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 Post subject: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:40 am 
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Quote:
Study: Aegean farmers replaced hunters of ancient Britain

by Frank Jordans

Scientists say a wave of migrants from a region that is now Greece and Turkey arrived in Britain some 6,000 years ago and virtually replaced the existing hunter-gatherer population, according to a study published Monday April 15, 2019, in the journal Nature. According to Nature, genetic samples of ancient remains show there was little interbreeding between the newcomers and the darker-skinned foragers that had inhabited the British Isles for millennia.

Scientists examining samples of ancient remains dating as far back as 8500 BC found the dark-skinned foragers who had inhabited the British Isles since the last Ice Age left comparatively little trace in the genetic record after the transition to farming, suggesting there wasn't much interbreeding with the newcomers who arrived around 4000 BC.

By contrast, the same Aegean migrants mixed extensively with local populations when they introduced farming to continental Europe about 1,000 years earlier, according to previous DNA studies.

"It is difficult to say why this is, but it may be that those last British hunter-gatherers were relatively few in number," said Mark G. Thomas, a professor of evolutionary genetics at University College London who co-wrote the study. "Even if these two populations had mixed completely, the ability of adept continental farmers and their descendants to maintain larger population sizes would produce a significant diminishing of hunter-gatherer ancestry over time."

The researchers from Britain and the United States found that the remains of Britain's early farmers were genetically similar to those discovered in what is now Spain and Portugal, indicating this population traveled east to west through the Mediterranean, and then up to Britain.

Strikingly, the newcomers appear to have arrived first on the western coast before spreading to other parts of Britain, suggesting they didn't cross the English Channel using the shortest possible course but instead braved the wilder Atlantic route.

"This route is a continuation of the Mediterranean coastal dispersal route but of course in much more complicated maritime circumstances," said Carles Lalueza-Fox of the Institute of Evolutionary Biology in Barcelona, Spain.

Lalueza-Fox, who wasn't involved with the study, said the findings match what is known about the spread of megalithic structures along Europe's Atlantic coast. Perhaps the best-known of these structures is Stonehenge in Britain.

"This work highlights the complex population turnovers affecting a rather marginal area of Northwestern Europe and points out the need to investigate all regions with ancient data to understand the shaping of modern human genetic diversity," said Laluelza-Fox.

In their paper, Thomas and his colleagues also note the "considerable variation in pigmentation levels in Europe" during the Stone Age as shown from the genetic samples they examined.

Whereas Britain's outgoing hunter-gatherers—including the oldest known Briton, "Cheddar Man"—likely had blue or green eyes and dark or even black skin, the farming populations migrating across Europe are believed to have had brown eyes and dark to intermediate skin.

https://phys.org/news/2019-04-aegean-fa ... itain.html


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:30 am 
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Explains the love of kebabs after a night out


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:08 am 
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"Few in number" - what other ways are there of being few but "in number"?
Similar annoying tautologies in scientific writing - "red in colour", "square in shape".


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:21 am 
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Gwenno wrote:
"Few in number" - what other ways are there of being few but "in number"?
Similar annoying tautologies in scientific writing - "red in colour", "square in shape".


I describe myself as:
Few in braincells
Red in political terms
Square in attitude towards so-called popular music

Also will accept description of sm@rt@rse :D


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:28 am 
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ManInTheBar wrote:
Gwenno wrote:
"Few in number" - what other ways are there of being few but "in number"?
Similar annoying tautologies in scientific writing - "red in colour", "square in shape".


I describe myself as:
Few in braincells
Red in political terms
Square in attitude towards so-called popular music

Also will accept description of sm@rt@rse :D


Smart in arse?


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:30 am 
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sturginho wrote:
ManInTheBar wrote:
Gwenno wrote:
"Few in number" - what other ways are there of being few but "in number"?
Similar annoying tautologies in scientific writing - "red in colour", "square in shape".


I describe myself as:
Few in braincells
Red in political terms
Square in attitude towards so-called popular music

Also will accept description of sm@rt@rse :D


Smart in arse?


Only on Thursdays (club night)


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:29 am 
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I wonder if anyone on the bored speaks Greek.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:27 am 
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slick wrote:
I wonder if anyone on the bored speaks Greek.

<cough>


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:33 am 
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globus wrote:
slick wrote:
I wonder if anyone on the bored speaks Greek.

<cough>


oh, there you are


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:37 am 
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globus wrote:
slick wrote:
I wonder if anyone on the bored speaks Greek.

<cough>


παρκλιφε


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:42 am 
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slick wrote:
I wonder if anyone on the bored speaks Greek.


It's all Greek to me


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:02 pm 
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Cousin!


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:53 pm 
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A5D5E5 wrote:
globus wrote:
slick wrote:
I wonder if anyone on the bored speaks Greek.

<cough>


παρκλιφε

αγνοούν τον αυτός είναι ένας bellend


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:57 pm 
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PCPhil wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
globus wrote:
slick wrote:
I wonder if anyone on the bored speaks Greek.

<cough>


παρκλιφε

αγνοούν τον αυτός είναι ένας bellend


:nod:


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:01 pm 
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PCPhil wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
globus wrote:
slick wrote:
I wonder if anyone on the bored speaks Greek.

<cough>


παρκλιφε

αγνοούν τον αυτός είναι ένας bellend

Thanks so much. I did classical Greek at school but the real learning came from working in a taverna in Naxos.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:39 pm 
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globus wrote:
PCPhil wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
globus wrote:
slick wrote:
I wonder if anyone on the bored speaks Greek.

<cough>


παρκλιφε

αγνοούν τον αυτός είναι ένας bellend

Thanks so much. I did classical Greek at school but the real learning came from working in a taverna in Naxos.

I don't understand Greek, can you translate please?


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:51 pm 
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Taranaki Snapper wrote:
suggesting there wasn't much interbreeding with the newcomers who arrived around 4000 BC.



Voting Leave isn't new then.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:33 pm 
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Sandstorm wrote:
Taranaki Snapper wrote:
suggesting there wasn't much interbreeding with the newcomers who arrived around 4000 BC.



Voting Leave isn't new then.


Which is largely the point.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:26 pm 
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Just use Google Translate.

I never mastered the Greek alphabet. I speak conversational Greek (I confess to being a bit rusty now). The question was "speaks".

Jolly useful when you sail there. I speak a tiny bit of Turkish as well. Enough to order a beer.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:13 pm 
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slick wrote:
I wonder if anyone on the bored speaks Greek.



My wife is fluent in Greek. She won a place on a Philology degree at Charles University in Prague during the last throes of communism. She choose to learn English and the Communist party choose for her to learn Greek. She is truly fluent, I've seen many Greeks puzzled trying to work out what part of Greece she is from, only a few smart buggers caught on she isn't Greek due to her use of archaic words. They knew I was foreign before the first 'K' of 'kalimera'


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:55 pm 
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globus wrote:
Just use Google Translate.

I did in the end :lol:
Thought you may have done it for us though!


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:37 pm 
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Hmm I wonder if that explains Brits with same Ydna haplogroups as Georgians.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:39 am 
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SaintK wrote:
globus wrote:
Just use Google Translate.

I did in the end :lol:
Thought you may have done it for us though!

I'm not good with the written stuff in Greek. Not so bad on the Latin side but it's difficult to find an Italian who speaks it.

One of the arcane bits is that the ancient Romans had no succinct word for "yes" or "no".

They also had no word for brown. My classics teacher was a Mr Brown. I dug around and found "fuscus" which means "muddy coloured".

It stuck. He was rather pleased about it.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:19 pm 
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MrJonno wrote:

My wife is fluent in Greek.


:shock:


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:02 pm 
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globus wrote:
I'm not good with the written stuff in Greek. Not so bad on the Latin side but it's difficult to find an Italian who speaks it.


I think there's a 0,0001% of italians that can speak Latin.
Italian derives directly from the popular latin, spoken by the illitterate poors, while the Latin that we study is the so called classical, spoken
by a bunch of rich fellas for a very short time 2 milleniums ago.
Here we call "Latinismi" all the ancient Latin words, reintroduced in italian from the XIII century on.

Plus, here in Italy we learn only the written form, it is discouraged directly by tutors to talk in Latin.

I studied it fo 5 years, I can transalte things written in monuments, but that's all.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:26 pm 
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tafano wrote:
globus wrote:
I'm not good with the written stuff in Greek. Not so bad on the Latin side but it's difficult to find an Italian who speaks it.


I think there's a 0,0001% of italians that can speak Latin.
Italian derives directly from the popular latin, spoken by the illitterate poors, while the Latin that we study is the so called classical, spoken
by a bunch of rich fellas for a very short time 2 milleniums ago.
Here we call "Latinismi" all the ancient Latin words, reintroduced in italian from the XIII century on.

Plus, here in Italy we learn only the written form, it is discouraged directly by tutors to talk in Latin.

I studied it fo 5 years, I can transalte things written in monuments, but that's all.

Nice to make contact with you Tafano. Very interesting and informative. I love Latin. I used to translate popular songs whilst being bored.

Ubi ambulatis, per tempestate, obtine caput erectum et non timere tenebrarum.

Hope you can translate that into English!

My wife's son's wife is a fluent Italian speaker. The grand children are being brought up tri-lingual. She's also fluent in French and naturally English.

Had a funny moment when M (the eldest) spoke in all three in a sentence at the dinner table! Not quite sure what she meant.

I speak decent German and Spanish. Struggled with Portuguese. Had a go at Mandarin but I cannot get into sing song languages like Thai.

But it's nice to know a fellow Latin poster.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:51 pm 
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mr bungle wrote:
MrJonno wrote:

My wife is fluent in Greek.


:shock:


Quote:
έτσι έχω ακούσει


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:56 pm 
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Taranaki Snapper wrote:
Quote:
Study: Aegean farmers replaced hunters of ancient Britain

by Frank Jordans

Scientists say a wave of migrants from a region that is now Greece and Turkey arrived in Britain some 6,000 years ago and virtually replaced the existing hunter-gatherer population, according to a study published Monday April 15, 2019, in the journal Nature. According to Nature, genetic samples of ancient remains show there was little interbreeding between the newcomers and the darker-skinned foragers that had inhabited the British Isles for millennia.

Scientists examining samples of ancient remains dating as far back as 8500 BC found the dark-skinned foragers who had inhabited the British Isles since the last Ice Age left comparatively little trace in the genetic record after the transition to farming, suggesting there wasn't much interbreeding with the newcomers who arrived around 4000 BC.

By contrast, the same Aegean migrants mixed extensively with local populations when they introduced farming to continental Europe about 1,000 years earlier, according to previous DNA studies.

"It is difficult to say why this is, but it may be that those last British hunter-gatherers were relatively few in number," said Mark G. Thomas, a professor of evolutionary genetics at University College London who co-wrote the study. "Even if these two populations had mixed completely, the ability of adept continental farmers and their descendants to maintain larger population sizes would produce a significant diminishing of hunter-gatherer ancestry over time."

The researchers from Britain and the United States found that the remains of Britain's early farmers were genetically similar to those discovered in what is now Spain and Portugal, indicating this population traveled east to west through the Mediterranean, and then up to Britain.

Strikingly, the newcomers appear to have arrived first on the western coast before spreading to other parts of Britain, suggesting they didn't cross the English Channel using the shortest possible course but instead braved the wilder Atlantic route.

"This route is a continuation of the Mediterranean coastal dispersal route but of course in much more complicated maritime circumstances," said Carles Lalueza-Fox of the Institute of Evolutionary Biology in Barcelona, Spain.

Lalueza-Fox, who wasn't involved with the study, said the findings match what is known about the spread of megalithic structures along Europe's Atlantic coast. Perhaps the best-known of these structures is Stonehenge in Britain.

"This work highlights the complex population turnovers affecting a rather marginal area of Northwestern Europe and points out the need to investigate all regions with ancient data to understand the shaping of modern human genetic diversity," said Laluelza-Fox.

In their paper, Thomas and his colleagues also note the "considerable variation in pigmentation levels in Europe" during the Stone Age as shown from the genetic samples they examined.

Whereas Britain's outgoing hunter-gatherers—including the oldest known Briton, "Cheddar Man"—likely had blue or green eyes and dark or even black skin, the farming populations migrating across Europe are believed to have had brown eyes and dark to intermediate skin.

https://phys.org/news/2019-04-aegean-fa ... itain.html


Even then the Pigdogs were horrible cúnts nobody liked.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:25 pm 
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But we have history and class. That's good enough for me!


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:39 pm 
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globus wrote:
Nice to make contact with you Tafano. Very interesting and informative. I love Latin. I used to translate popular songs whilst being bored.

Ubi ambulatis, per tempestate, obtine caput erectum et non timere tenebrarum.

Hope you can translate that into English!

My wife's son's wife is a fluent Italian speaker. The grand children are being brought up tri-lingual. She's also fluent in French and naturally English.

Had a funny moment when M (the eldest) spoke in all three in a sentence at the dinner table! Not quite sure what she meant.

I speak decent German and Spanish. Struggled with Portuguese. Had a go at Mandarin but I cannot get into sing song languages like Thai.

But it's nice to know a fellow Latin poster.

“Everywhere you go, through a storm, raise you head up and don’t fear darkness”
Can’t understand which song is with my terrible translation.

I’m no good at all in Latin, studied it in school, hated it, forgot it.
I was better at Medieval Latin when I studied History at University, it was really a lot simpler and a lot more Italianish.
My stepfather has impressive language skills.
Born in Tripoli when it was an Italian colony, he was raised learning Italian and Arabic.
Then he studied French and English at school. Then German by himself to better understand Nazi’s text.
Yes he is a hardcore fascist, and that’s the best of him cause he has subhuman empathy standards.
Uh, he learned Spanish too when his son went to live in Spain.
He is 78 and can still speak fluently ALL of them.

I’m studying にほん right now, the grammar is really simple, the kanas not that difficult to memorize,
kanji is hugely hipermassively extracomplicated.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:29 pm 
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globus wrote:
I'm not good with the written stuff in Greek. Not so bad on the Latin side but it's difficult to find an Italian who speaks it.

I found my A-Level Latin useful once in Rhodes. We were on top of the island looking for Petaloudes. Nobody around except an old farmer leaning on a gate. I said "Petaloudes?" and got a stream of Greek in response. I tried English, French, German, Swedish ... and he finally caught on by trying a bit of what I guessed was Italian (the Italians had invaded Rhodes during the war). It took a few repetitions, but I eventually decided he was saying "Go across that field and turn left at the goat". Unlikely as it seems, there was indeed a goat on the far side, tethered to the hedge, and we got in to Petaloudes via the back door.

I had taken the trouble to learn a few phrases in Greek before our holiday, but it backfired a little. We found out you could sell your blood at the Athens hospital, so when the doctor came round asking something, I said "I don't speak Greek" in Greek. She laughed and tried again. I repeated my phrase very carefully, so she tried a third time very slowly, so I gave up. "Sorry". shrug. "Oh", she said (in perfect English), "So you really don't speak Greek"

Languages are fun.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:32 pm 
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[repeat post]


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:01 pm 
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tafano wrote:
globus wrote:
I'm not good with the written stuff in Greek. Not so bad on the Latin side but it's difficult to find an Italian who speaks it.


I think there's a 0,0001% of italians that can speak Latin.
Italian derives directly from the popular latin, spoken by the illitterate poors, while the Latin that we study is the so called classical, spoken by a bunch of rich fellas for a very short time 2 milleniums ago.
Here we call "Latinismi" all the ancient Latin words, reintroduced in italian from the XIII century on.

Plus, here in Italy we learn only the written form, it is discouraged directly by tutors to talk in Latin.

I studied it fo 5 years, I can transalte things written in monuments, but that's all.


I went to a Catholic high school that offered Latin, had a few friends who took it (for God knows what reason).

One of them said that you can't really have a "conversation" in Latin based on what's survived...or at least if you do, it would have sounded ridiculous to speakers at that time.

I'm incredibly jealous of all you bi/tri/whatever-lingual types. I scored in 99th percentile on the English section of the ACT but couldn't ever become even conversationally fluent in my parents' mother tongue (Spanish). Shame of the family.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:35 pm 
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fonzeee wrote:
tafano wrote:
globus wrote:
I'm not good with the written stuff in Greek. Not so bad on the Latin side but it's difficult to find an Italian who speaks it.


I think there's a 0,0001% of italians that can speak Latin.
Italian derives directly from the popular latin, spoken by the illitterate poors, while the Latin that we study is the so called classical, spoken by a bunch of rich fellas for a very short time 2 milleniums ago.
Here we call "Latinismi" all the ancient Latin words, reintroduced in italian from the XIII century on.

Plus, here in Italy we learn only the written form, it is discouraged directly by tutors to talk in Latin.

I studied it fo 5 years, I can transalte things written in monuments, but that's all.


I went to a Catholic high school that offered Latin, had a few friends who took it (for God knows what reason).

One of them said that you can't really have a "conversation" in Latin based on what's survived...or at least if you do, it would have sounded ridiculous to speakers at that time.

I'm incredibly jealous of all you bi/tri/whatever-lingual types. I scored in 99th percentile on the English section of the ACT but couldn't ever become even conversationally fluent in my parents' mother tongue (Spanish). Shame of the family.


Spending 6 months in a Spanish speaking country or place would do more for your Spanish than a lifetime of Spanish classes. My girlfriend took French in high school and basically remembers nothing and learned very little but she spent 2 years living in Armenia and became close to fluent in Armenian, a language that is not related to any she's ever been familiar with and has an entirely unfamiliar alphabet.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:59 am 
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ManInTheBar wrote:
slick wrote:
I wonder if anyone on the bored speaks Greek.


It's all Greek to me

Well some say I'm lazy....


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:59 am 
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fonzeee wrote:
tafano wrote:
globus wrote:
I'm not good with the written stuff in Greek. Not so bad on the Latin side but it's difficult to find an Italian who speaks it.


I think there's a 0,0001% of italians that can speak Latin.
Italian derives directly from the popular latin, spoken by the illitterate poors, while the Latin that we study is the so called classical, spoken by a bunch of rich fellas for a very short time 2 milleniums ago.
Here we call "Latinismi" all the ancient Latin words, reintroduced in italian from the XIII century on.

Plus, here in Italy we learn only the written form, it is discouraged directly by tutors to talk in Latin.

I studied it fo 5 years, I can transalte things written in monuments, but that's all.


I went to a Catholic high school that offered Latin, had a few friends who took it (for God knows what reason).

One of them said that you can't really have a "conversation" in Latin based on what's survived...or at least if you do, it would have sounded ridiculous to speakers at that time.

I'm incredibly jealous of all you bi/tri/whatever-lingual types. I scored in 99th percentile on the English section of the ACT but couldn't ever become even conversationally fluent in my parents' mother tongue (Spanish). Shame of the family.


Yup. I spent 25 years trying to beat Japanese into my poor addled brain, and never got to the point of being able to hold a reasonable conversation.

Now I have to learn Thai so I can speak to my wife's family. Ugh.


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:26 am 
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goeagles wrote:

Spending 6 months in a Spanish speaking country or place would do more for your Spanish than a lifetime of Spanish classes. My girlfriend took French in high school and basically remembers nothing and learned very little but she spent 2 years living in Armenia and became close to fluent in Armenian, a language that is not related to any she's ever been familiar with and has an entirely unfamiliar alphabet.


Indeed. I think Spanish is one of the easiest languages to pick up.

6 months of non-bilingual teaching is how I picked up Welsh so quick :nod:


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:57 am 
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fonzeee wrote:
tafano wrote:
globus wrote:
I'm not good with the written stuff in Greek. Not so bad on the Latin side but it's difficult to find an Italian who speaks it.


I think there's a 0,0001% of italians that can speak Latin.
Italian derives directly from the popular latin, spoken by the illitterate poors, while the Latin that we study is the so called classical, spoken by a bunch of rich fellas for a very short time 2 milleniums ago.
Here we call "Latinismi" all the ancient Latin words, reintroduced in italian from the XIII century on.

Plus, here in Italy we learn only the written form, it is discouraged directly by tutors to talk in Latin.

I studied it fo 5 years, I can transalte things written in monuments, but that's all.


I went to a Catholic high school that offered Latin, had a few friends who took it (for God knows what reason).

One of them said that you can't really have a "conversation" in Latin based on what's survived...or at least if you do, it would have sounded ridiculous to speakers at that time.

I'm incredibly jealous of all you bi/tri/whatever-lingual types. I scored in 99th percentile on the English section of the ACT but couldn't ever become even conversationally fluent in my parents' mother tongue (Spanish). Shame of the family.

Isn't that also the shame of your family as you should have been raised speaking at least some Spanish?


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 Post subject: Re: All Greek To Me
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:03 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:34 am
Posts: 18557
MrJonno wrote:

My wife is fluent in Greekstyle.

I bet she is


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