The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

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nardol
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by nardol »

eldanielfire wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:
Theflier wrote:And finally, Leinster wealth allows them to buy a team(both retain and bring in) ours coudlnt dream of
It's the one thing the Leinster lot simply refuse to recognise. The fans jump through hoops to show they don't spend as much as the big boys, with this and that bit of information proves it...but study, after study shows that those that spend the most, win the most. It is absolutely inconceivable that Leinster can be as successful as they are, and not be spending the same (if not more) than any of the other higly successful teams around Europe.

Cammy points out that Leinster grow all their own players...great, but that's the same line as Saffercens used, and it's equally as hollow, as growing them is one thing, but having the budget to retain them is the most important facet in the continued success of the team. And that takes money, lots and lots of money.

As such, if Leinster are there or there abouts with regards to performance and trophies as serial cap cheats Saffercens, then you can bet that they are working on comparable budgets (whether by fair means or foul) because if they weren't, they simply wouldn't be able to continually compete at that level.
Again sorry for butting in.

I'm not sure you understand the provincial branding in Ireland. Kids will have been playing for various Leinster teams since U 15, and all successful Leinster teams from U 15 up get their half time parade around the RDS. I have a nephew involved in the Leinster u/a system at the moment (U 18), and the amount of kit etc. they get is remarkable.

Leinster kids want to play for Leinster, and players generally don't move unless they have to, through what is coming up beneath, or through IRFU dictat. The very few who move for other reasons stand out for that very reason.
Don't buy it sorry. The Irish are probably the most itinerant people on the planet. Are we to believe that all Irish people are ready to leave for new opportunities/see the world at the drop of the hat, except for Leinster rugby folk who are a special breed who just love Leinster and their mammy's so much, they are willing to forego better opportunities and money, and stay in Ireland instead?

No doubt there'll be the odd lad who really does love his mammy that much, but for the vast majority, the only reason they stay in the Leinster squad is because the are getting paid comparable wages to anything they can get anywhere else in Europe.
Very good point. There was also that estimate of what Pro-14 teams work with last season, which pointed that Ireland's team have around 7 million for playing costs, added to the fact they have a great tax arrangement, that puts them around any top team in England and even on par with salary cap busters Saracens. It's also a fair bit higher than Wales £5 million for most teams and £3.5 million for the Dragons.

Maybe the Leinster/Irish fans believe they are somehow lower down the financial ladder. I recall a conversation some months back when a Irish poster, YOYO I think, couldn't believe me when I pointed out their playing numbers where higher than Wales even after posting the evidence of player numbers. It seems to be fixed into the Irish mind that Rugby is some niche small sport when they have the 5th higher number of players in the world to chose from. It's no more or less sparse as any other major NH country really. So it only stands they have more money as a result of a bigger population that almost twice that of Wales:

EDIT: That conversation:
YOYO wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
camroc1 wrote:Welsh rugby can support 4 teams as in Ireland.

Needs union to take over though, and that requires support from the bottom up.
Wales has a considerably smaller playing pool than Ireland. In fact according to Squidge Rugby Wales playing pool is smaller than the entire top 18 except Scotland.
That’s not true. Ireland with 221 clubs v Wales with 250 clubs. That’s where you gets your numbers.
You really have no idea now sparsely particulated rugby is in Ireland.
Being an avid sports participant who has played gaelic footie, soccer and rugby, the rugby landscape is barron in must of the country.
The list:

Image
Ireland's figures include people who join up to play a handful of tag rugby games over the summer. This has proved popular in recent years and makes the ireland figure complete rubbish.
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Kid A
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by Kid A »

camroc1 wrote: Apologies for butting in on your thread, but so far as Leinster are concerned, 39 of the senior squad of 46 are home grown, ie came through the Leinster system. Of the seven who didn't 5 (Bent, Fardy, Gibson-Park, Lowe and Tomane) are foreign, and 2 (Cronin and Henshaw) from other Irish provinces.

So better utilisation of the home produced players is a big part of the answer.

I'll butt off out again now.
Why do Irish rugby fans never mention MONEY. Ireland has sportspersons tax relief. So the 600,000 Euros that Conor Murray is on is really about 800,000. He'll get a huge cheque when he retires. That's why those players stay in Ireland most of the time.

Wales has nothing like this............. and less money.

Time and time again we hear "centrally contract 40 players" or "take over the 4 teams".

With what money? The WRU made a loss this year in a season when we won the Grand Slam!

THERE IS NO MONEY.
Last edited by Kid A on Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by penguin »

P in VG wrote:Feck it - lets centrally contact the best 40 odd players in Wales, withdraw from the Pro14 & go back to Welsh prem that people want to watch.

NHL Style draft at the start of the season to evenly distribute the Welsh players among the teams - job done :thumbup:
What happens to Europe? No chance a premiership team, even with a few internationals, competes.

What happens to our international team? Gatland always beasted the players to get them up to speed for international rugby, and that was just the step up from Pro 14, which is a much higher standard. I don't see how that would work. I'd love to see a phased calendar - 1st up the semi-pro level like the ITM in NZ - pros and semi-pros keeping the local ties alive, then a period of the season which is the main league (shorter format so there are more derbies and high quality games, regional structure for the clubs) and then Europe...but it requires everyone to re-jig the calendar and the majority would never go for it.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by Kid A »

penguin wrote:
P in VG wrote:Feck it - lets centrally contact the best 40 odd players in Wales, withdraw from the Pro14 & go back to Welsh prem that people want to watch.

NHL Style draft at the start of the season to evenly distribute the Welsh players among the teams - job done :thumbup:
What happens to Europe? No chance a premiership team, even with a few internationals, competes.

What happens to our international team? Gatland always beasted the players to get them up to speed for international rugby, and that was just the step up from Pro 14, which is a much higher standard. I don't see how that would work. I'd love to see a phased calendar - 1st up the semi-pro level like the ITM in NZ - pros and semi-pros keeping the local ties alive, then a period of the season which is the main league (shorter format so there are more derbies and high quality games, regional structure for the clubs) and then Europe...but it requires everyone to re-jig the calendar and the majority would never go for it.
Yeah lets just chuck £10m of TV revenue down the drain. :roll:
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by penguin »

Kid A wrote:
penguin wrote:
P in VG wrote:Feck it - lets centrally contact the best 40 odd players in Wales, withdraw from the Pro14 & go back to Welsh prem that people want to watch.

NHL Style draft at the start of the season to evenly distribute the Welsh players among the teams - job done :thumbup:
What happens to Europe? No chance a premiership team, even with a few internationals, competes.

What happens to our international team? Gatland always beasted the players to get them up to speed for international rugby, and that was just the step up from Pro 14, which is a much higher standard. I don't see how that would work. I'd love to see a phased calendar - 1st up the semi-pro level like the ITM in NZ - pros and semi-pros keeping the local ties alive, then a period of the season which is the main league (shorter format so there are more derbies and high quality games, regional structure for the clubs) and then Europe...but it requires everyone to re-jig the calendar and the majority would never go for it.
Yeah lets just chuck £10m of TV revenue down the drain. :roll:
You don't think a re-structured league could generate similar? Not sure if I was clear but I'm not talking about the regions only playing themselves (on re-reading it could have looked like that).
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

P in VG wrote:Feck it - lets centrally contact the best 40 odd players in Wales, withdraw from the Pro14 & go back to Welsh prem that people want to watch.

NHL Style draft at the start of the season to evenly distribute the Welsh players among the teams - job done :thumbup:
The players still need quality competition to get to a test standard. I think what's lacking is quality head coaches.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

Kid A wrote: Why do Irish rugby fans never mention MONEY. Ireland has sportspersons tax relief. So the 600,000 Euros that Conor Murray is on is really about 800,000. He'll get a huge cheque when he retires. That's why those players stay in Ireland most of the time.

Wales has nothing like this............. and less money.

Time and time again we hear "centrally contract 40 players" or "take over the 4 teams".

With what money? The WRU made a loss this year in a season when we won the Grand Slam!

THERE IS NO MONEY.
In terms of cash, I'm surprised the WRU doesn't use the principality stadium for a Christmas game or a season starter with cheap tickets so clubs get a bit of extra revenue.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

nardol wrote:
Ireland's figures include people who join up to play a handful of tag rugby games over the summer. This has proved popular in recent years and makes the ireland figure complete rubbish.
It's exactly the same as everywhere else in the Northern Hemisphere. You touch a rugby ball and you're counted. As stated Leinster alone has a comparable population to Wales, and we are being told by other posters how they engage every school and club and make all of Leinster develop crazy Leinster loyalty.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by nardol »

Fact remains leinster plays mostly leinster players.

Its not like we are going in trying to get a liam williams or falatau.

We are not going to distort your player market and try and take your players. The salary we put our players on and the tax arrangements are because thankfully we are an independent country and are used for defensive purposes - to keep the players born and raised in leinster.


In regard to your ...second... point England has 10x the population of Ireland. We have to approach things differently to the RFU because we are never going to be able to compete on a like for like basis. The whole system is designed to max out on the very limited resources the IRFU have compared to the FRU and IRFU... even the saffers bring a lot more to the table.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

nardol wrote:Fact remains leinster plays mostly leinster players.

Its not like we are going in trying to get a liam williams or falatau.

We are not going to distort your player market and try and take your players. The salary we put our players on and the tax arrangements are because thankfully we are an independent country and are used for defensive purposes - to keep the players born and raised in leinster.


In regard to your ...second... point England has 10x the population of Ireland. We have to approach things differently to the RFU because we are never going to be able to compete on a like for like basis.
We're talking about Wales here. We are discussing how the Irish system acts like a big money payout vs Wales. Leinser essentially are as rich as any club in the UK. That's one of the pillars for their success.

Also England's sporting talent is divided up into many sports and has 4 professional leagues in which 3 of them ca be paid better than a rugby player.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by nardol »

eldanielfire wrote:
nardol wrote:Fact remains leinster plays mostly leinster players.

Its not like we are going in trying to get a liam williams or falatau.

We are not going to distort your player market and try and take your players. The salary we put our players on and the tax arrangements are because thankfully we are an independent country and are used for defensive purposes - to keep the players born and raised in leinster.


In regard to your ...second... point England has 10x the population of Ireland. We have to approach things differently to the RFU because we are never going to be able to compete on a like for like basis.
We're talking about Wales here. We are discussing how the Irish system acts like a big money payout vs Wales. Leinser essentially are as rich as any club in the UK. That's one of the pillars for their success.

Also England's sporting talent is divided up into many sports and has 4 professional leagues in which 3 of them ca be paid better than a rugby player.
I'm sure leinster are a rich club. But they are not a successful club because they buy their players - they develop them and hold on to them. Now the financial clout does obviously help retain them however getting the international match fees which are limited to domestic playing players and the tax arrangements also help significantly.

And as I said already - we are also not going to screw up your playing base by taking your players no matter how much money leinster may have. So in terms of 'big money payout vs Wales' the amount of money doesnt matter..... except when you guys leak players to france and england. But there is not much we can do about that.... There are just not enough match tickets being sold to welsh regional games and affiliated finances.

Edit. perhaps WRU investment?

The economic mismatch between wales and london or even dublin is however something that will always be a struggle. Its why grass roots support for the regions is even more important to welsh rugby than elsewhere. It was something that was always there in the old days and never transferred to the regions which is a huge shame.

That said the Scarletts run in the heineken cup and the sell out they got from an outsiders perspective looks as if it wouldn't take much to reignite.
Last edited by nardol on Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by Kid A »

penguin wrote:
Kid A wrote:
penguin wrote:
P in VG wrote:Feck it - lets centrally contact the best 40 odd players in Wales, withdraw from the Pro14 & go back to Welsh prem that people want to watch.

NHL Style draft at the start of the season to evenly distribute the Welsh players among the teams - job done :thumbup:
What happens to Europe? No chance a premiership team, even with a few internationals, competes.

What happens to our international team? Gatland always beasted the players to get them up to speed for international rugby, and that was just the step up from Pro 14, which is a much higher standard. I don't see how that would work. I'd love to see a phased calendar - 1st up the semi-pro level like the ITM in NZ - pros and semi-pros keeping the local ties alive, then a period of the season which is the main league (shorter format so there are more derbies and high quality games, regional structure for the clubs) and then Europe...but it requires everyone to re-jig the calendar and the majority would never go for it.
Yeah lets just chuck £10m of TV revenue down the drain. :roll:
You don't think a re-structured league could generate similar? Not sure if I was clear but I'm not talking about the regions only playing themselves (on re-reading it could have looked like that).
Restructured to what?
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by Kid A »

nardol wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
nardol wrote:Fact remains leinster plays mostly leinster players.

Its not like we are going in trying to get a liam williams or falatau.

We are not going to distort your player market and try and take your players. The salary we put our players on and the tax arrangements are because thankfully we are an independent country and are used for defensive purposes - to keep the players born and raised in leinster.


In regard to your ...second... point England has 10x the population of Ireland. We have to approach things differently to the RFU because we are never going to be able to compete on a like for like basis.
We're talking about Wales here. We are discussing how the Irish system acts like a big money payout vs Wales. Leinser essentially are as rich as any club in the UK. That's one of the pillars for their success.

Also England's sporting talent is divided up into many sports and has 4 professional leagues in which 3 of them ca be paid better than a rugby player.
I'm sure leinster are a rich club. But they are not a successful club because they buy their players - they develop them and hold on to them. Now the financial clout does obviously help retain them however getting the international match fees which are limited to domestic playing players and the tax arrangements also help significantly.

And as I said already - we are also not going to screw up your playing base by taking your players no matter how much money leinster may have.
They put loads of money into the academy (from IRFU and the generous benefactor that paid for it) and then put loads of money into retaining them. Leinster don't have to buy as many overseas players because they've got such a huge amount of the quality Irish players.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

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eldanielfire wrote:
Kid A wrote: Why do Irish rugby fans never mention MONEY. Ireland has sportspersons tax relief. So the 600,000 Euros that Conor Murray is on is really about 800,000. He'll get a huge cheque when he retires. That's why those players stay in Ireland most of the time.

Wales has nothing like this............. and less money.

Time and time again we hear "centrally contract 40 players" or "take over the 4 teams".

With what money? The WRU made a loss this year in a season when we won the Grand Slam!

THERE IS NO MONEY.
In terms of cash, I'm surprised the WRU doesn't use the principality stadium for a Christmas game or a season starter with cheap tickets so clubs get a bit of extra revenue.
They already do the judgement day. That's enough.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by penguin »

Kid A wrote:
penguin wrote:
Kid A wrote:
penguin wrote:
P in VG wrote:Feck it - lets centrally contact the best 40 odd players in Wales, withdraw from the Pro14 & go back to Welsh prem that people want to watch.

NHL Style draft at the start of the season to evenly distribute the Welsh players among the teams - job done :thumbup:
What happens to Europe? No chance a premiership team, even with a few internationals, competes.

What happens to our international team? Gatland always beasted the players to get them up to speed for international rugby, and that was just the step up from Pro 14, which is a much higher standard. I don't see how that would work. I'd love to see a phased calendar - 1st up the semi-pro level like the ITM in NZ - pros and semi-pros keeping the local ties alive, then a period of the season which is the main league (shorter format so there are more derbies and high quality games, regional structure for the clubs) and then Europe...but it requires everyone to re-jig the calendar and the majority would never go for it.
Yeah lets just chuck £10m of TV revenue down the drain. :roll:
You don't think a re-structured league could generate similar? Not sure if I was clear but I'm not talking about the regions only playing themselves (on re-reading it could have looked like that).
Restructured to what?
I was trying to imagine a global rugby calendar where there was room for a pre-season/ITM style tournament with pros and semi pros, then a stronger more Pro 14-esque league - similar to what we have now in terms of countries but shorter and focused on producing higher quality matches. It would require all kinds of changes to fit it in so I admit it's never going to happen...but I like the idea of reconnecting pros with their original clubs as more than just a picture on the wall at the clubhouse. Just musing so I don't have all the fine details worked out for you ;)
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by Kid A »

penguin wrote:
I was trying to imagine a global rugby calendar where there was room for a pre-season/ITM style tournament with pros and semi pros, then a stronger more Pro 14-esque league - similar to what we have now in terms of countries but shorter and focused on producing higher quality matches. It would require all kinds of changes to fit it in so I admit it's never going to happen...but I like the idea of reconnecting pros with their original clubs as more than just a picture on the wall at the clubhouse. Just musing so I don't have all the fine details worked out for you ;)
In that case, I really can't see how that would make up the TV revenue gap at all. One semi pro type comp and a much shorter version of the Pro14? Who's going to pay the big bucks for that?
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by penguin »

Kid A wrote:
penguin wrote:
I was trying to imagine a global rugby calendar where there was room for a pre-season/ITM style tournament with pros and semi pros, then a stronger more Pro 14-esque league - similar to what we have now in terms of countries but shorter and focused on producing higher quality matches. It would require all kinds of changes to fit it in so I admit it's never going to happen...but I like the idea of reconnecting pros with their original clubs as more than just a picture on the wall at the clubhouse. Just musing so I don't have all the fine details worked out for you ;)
In that case, I really can't see how that would make up the TV revenue gap at all. One semi pro type comp and a much shorter version of the Pro14? Who's going to pay the big bucks for that?
It wasn't really a post about bridging the funding gap - it was prompted by P in VG's 'feck it' post which rejected the relative financial security of the Pro 14 entirely and my point was about what I would like to see instead that met some of those concerns; connecting fans with the regions, having that intermediate step that would also be a boost to the premiership level clubs through that first competition. There are plenty of problems to go round, but funding is a problem whichever way you turn.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by LandOTurk »

eldanielfire wrote:
Kid A wrote: Why do Irish rugby fans never mention MONEY. Ireland has sportspersons tax relief. So the 600,000 Euros that Conor Murray is on is really about 800,000. He'll get a huge cheque when he retires. That's why those players stay in Ireland most of the time.

Wales has nothing like this............. and less money.

Time and time again we hear "centrally contract 40 players" or "take over the 4 teams".

With what money? The WRU made a loss this year in a season when we won the Grand Slam!

THERE IS NO MONEY.
In terms of cash, I'm surprised the WRU doesn't use the principality stadium for a Christmas game or a season starter with cheap tickets so clubs get a bit of extra revenue.
The regions' biggest games are the Christmas derbies. Nobody would want to go far for that.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by LandOTurk »

Kid A wrote:
penguin wrote:
I was trying to imagine a global rugby calendar where there was room for a pre-season/ITM style tournament with pros and semi pros, then a stronger more Pro 14-esque league - similar to what we have now in terms of countries but shorter and focused on producing higher quality matches. It would require all kinds of changes to fit it in so I admit it's never going to happen...but I like the idea of reconnecting pros with their original clubs as more than just a picture on the wall at the clubhouse. Just musing so I don't have all the fine details worked out for you ;)
In that case, I really can't see how that would make up the TV revenue gap at all. One semi pro type comp and a much shorter version of the Pro14? Who's going to pay the big bucks for that?
This. As I understand it, the more games the bigger the TV revenues. But if the quality increases there must be some benefit, just not enough I guess to make up for the shortfall.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by Frodder »

Guys, are we seriously speculating that we should give up on the Pro14 and move back to the "Good ol' days"? Whilst we're there we can get back to the days of having nearly 100 points on us by SA instead of being 5 mins from a RWC final
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by C69 »

500 before Christmas?
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by Frodder »

c69 wrote:500 before Christmas?
Well we're having an internal shit fight and the Irish are nipping around our heels so could do
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by LandOTurk »

c69 wrote:500 before Christmas?
No doubt. I am expecting sometime in Nov.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by penguin »

Frodder wrote:Guys, are we seriously speculating that we should give up on the Pro14 and move back to the "Good ol' days"? Whilst we're there we can get back to the days of having nearly 100 points on us by SA instead of being 5 mins from a RWC final
Not really. In an ideal world I would like to see a way to get pros playing a little at the clubs but it's unworkable... Maybe as some sort of pre-season mini comp but in reality there's just no way to fit it in.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

nardol wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
nardol wrote:Fact remains leinster plays mostly leinster players.

Its not like we are going in trying to get a liam williams or falatau.

We are not going to distort your player market and try and take your players. The salary we put our players on and the tax arrangements are because thankfully we are an independent country and are used for defensive purposes - to keep the players born and raised in leinster.


In regard to your ...second... point England has 10x the population of Ireland. We have to approach things differently to the RFU because we are never going to be able to compete on a like for like basis.
We're talking about Wales here. We are discussing how the Irish system acts like a big money payout vs Wales. Leinser essentially are as rich as any club in the UK. That's one of the pillars for their success.

Also England's sporting talent is divided up into many sports and has 4 professional leagues in which 3 of them ca be paid better than a rugby player.
I'm sure leinster are a rich club. But they are not a successful club because they buy their players - they develop them and hold on to them. Now the financial clout does obviously help retain them however getting the international match fees which are limited to domestic playing players and the tax arrangements also help significantly.

And as I said already - we are also not going to screw up your playing base by taking your players no matter how much money leinster may have. So in terms of 'big money payout vs Wales' the amount of money doesnt matter..... except when you guys leak players to france and england. But there is not much we can do about that.... There are just not enough match tickets being sold to welsh regional games and affiliated finances.

Edit. perhaps WRU investment?

The economic mismatch between wales and london or even dublin is however something that will always be a struggle. Its why grass roots support for the regions is even more important to welsh rugby than elsewhere. It was something that was always there in the old days and never transferred to the regions which is a huge shame.

That said the Scarletts run in the heineken cup and the sell out they got from an outsiders perspective looks as if it wouldn't take much to reignite.
I'm not sure why this keeps getting pipped put, no one has claimed Leinster buys in players, but it is their money that allows them to keep a top heavy squad and buy in high quality coaches from Super Rugby and France

I agree, the disconnect between the grassroots and the regions is terrible and I'm not sure how it gets resolved. Wales is lucky it has such a funadmental grassroots rugby culture.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by MrDominator »

Gatland speaks:
:
Coaching England was a prospect that enticed him, he says, during his spell at Wasps (2002-2005): “Definitely at that stage, at some time it would have appealed to me. I went through an exercise in my mind and looked at the two squads at this World Cup and thought - how many of our players would make the England squad, and I thought - maybe eight or nine.

“How many would have started? I’m not too sure. Our guys gave us everything, yet there’s probably 10 or 15 England players who didn’t make the England squad who would possibly be good enough for our squad as well. That’s a testament to the Welsh boys in how much they gave.
Ouch.
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by LandOTurk »

MrDominator wrote:Gatland speaks:
:
Coaching England was a prospect that enticed him, he says, during his spell at Wasps (2002-2005): “Definitely at that stage, at some time it would have appealed to me. I went through an exercise in my mind and looked at the two squads at this World Cup and thought - how many of our players would make the England squad, and I thought - maybe eight or nine.

“How many would have started? I’m not too sure. Our guys gave us everything, yet there’s probably 10 or 15 England players who didn’t make the England squad who would possibly be good enough for our squad as well. That’s a testament to the Welsh boys in how much they gave.
Ouch.
Don't take it so bad, Mr D. :thumbup:
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Jeff the Bear
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by Jeff the Bear »

So the moral of the story is that the Welsh players are mentally tougher and willing to give more. :thumbup:

The fact that the English have considerably more depth than the Welah isn't really news, is it?
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MrDominator
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by MrDominator »

Jeff the Bear wrote:So the moral of the story is that the Welsh players are mentally tougher and willing to give more. :thumbup:

The fact that the English have considerably more depth than the Welah isn't really news, is it?
Come on, a mere 8 or 9 Welsh players would make the English squad?

That's utter humiliation :lol:

(And puts your ludicrously Taff-heavy Lions XV into perspective, old chum).
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LandOTurk
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by LandOTurk »

MrDominator wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:So the moral of the story is that the Welsh players are mentally tougher and willing to give more. :thumbup:

The fact that the English have considerably more depth than the Welah isn't really news, is it?
Come on, a mere 8 or 9 Welsh players would make the English squad?

That's utter humiliation :lol:

(And puts your ludicrously Taff-heavy Lions XV into perspective, old chum).
I would put AWJ, Tipuric, Faletau, G Davies, J Davies and Liam in the starting XV - so 6. The remaining 9, would be English I would say. But as you brought up the Lions and we have the Boks up next in 2021, in the RWC as Wales lost by 3, England by 20. You English are obviously either mentally not as tough, or physically a bit soft cock = maybe both. So I would increase the Welsh contingent to 9 or 10. Of course, a lot can happen between now and then, perhaps 12-13 Welsh. :thumbup:
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Jeff the Bear
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by Jeff the Bear »

LandOTurk wrote:
MrDominator wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:So the moral of the story is that the Welsh players are mentally tougher and willing to give more. :thumbup:

The fact that the English have considerably more depth than the Welah isn't really news, is it?
Come on, a mere 8 or 9 Welsh players would make the English squad?

That's utter humiliation :lol:

(And puts your ludicrously Taff-heavy Lions XV into perspective, old chum).
I would put AWJ, Tipuric, Faletau, G Davies, J Davies and Liam in the starting XV - so 6. The remaining 9, would be English I would say. But as you brought up the Lions and we have the Boks up next in 2021, in the RWC as Wales lost by 3, England by 20. You English are obviously either mentally not as tough, or physically a bit soft cock = maybe both. So I would increase the Welsh contingent to 9 or 10. Of course, a lot can happen between now and then, perhaps 12-13 Welsh. :thumbup:
As you note, maybe only 9-10 in a squad...but a big chunk of those would be starters, with the rest on the bench. Wainwright is better than Mark Wilson. Biggar would likely bench. Given how shit English scrummies are, Tomos Williams would definitely be in the starting 23 of a joint team. You'd have to think given his exploits in the World Cup, Josh Adams would be there or thereabouts (at this stage he's a better bet than Nowell).

The fact is, the difference is all in the front 5. Apart from AWJ (and probably Ken Owens), the English would make up all the front 5 slots down to the thirds. That alone accounts for about 40% of a World Cup squad. Outside of those positions, it'd be a mixed bag.
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LandOTurk
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by LandOTurk »

Jeff the Bear wrote:
LandOTurk wrote:
MrDominator wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:So the moral of the story is that the Welsh players are mentally tougher and willing to give more. :thumbup:

The fact that the English have considerably more depth than the Welah isn't really news, is it?
Come on, a mere 8 or 9 Welsh players would make the English squad?

That's utter humiliation :lol:

(And puts your ludicrously Taff-heavy Lions XV into perspective, old chum).
I would put AWJ, Tipuric, Faletau, G Davies, J Davies and Liam in the starting XV - so 6. The remaining 9, would be English I would say. But as you brought up the Lions and we have the Boks up next in 2021, in the RWC as Wales lost by 3, England by 20. You English are obviously either mentally not as tough, or physically a bit soft cock = maybe both. So I would increase the Welsh contingent to 9 or 10. Of course, a lot can happen between now and then, perhaps 12-13 Welsh. :thumbup:
As you note, maybe only 9-10 in a squad...but a big chunk of those would be starters, with the rest on the bench. Wainwright is better than Mark Wilson. Biggar would likely bench. Given how shit English scrummies are, Tomos Williams would definitely be in the starting 23 of a joint team. You'd have to think given his exploits in the World Cup, Josh Adams would be there or thereabouts (at this stage he's a better bet than Nowell).

The fact is, the difference is all in the front 5. Apart from AWJ (and probably Ken Owens), the English would make up all the front 5 slots down to the thirds. That alone accounts for about 40% of a World Cup squad. Outside of those positions, it'd be a mixed bag.
Not just starters but stars of the tour too.

What have Jonathan Davies (2017), Leigh Halfpenny (2013), Jamie Roberts (2009), Ryan Jones (2005) and Scott Gibbs (1997) all have in common?
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by cubby boi »

LandOTurk wrote:
MrDominator wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:So the moral of the story is that the Welsh players are mentally tougher and willing to give more. :thumbup:

The fact that the English have considerably more depth than the Welah isn't really news, is it?
Come on, a mere 8 or 9 Welsh players would make the English squad?

That's utter humiliation :lol:

(And puts your ludicrously Taff-heavy Lions XV into perspective, old chum).
I would put AWJ, Tipuric, Faletau, G Davies, J Davies and Liam in the starting XV - so 6. The remaining 9, would be English I would say. But as you brought up the Lions and we have the Boks up next in 2021, in the RWC as Wales lost by 3, England by 20. You English are obviously either mentally not as tough, or physically a bit soft cock = maybe both. So I would increase the Welsh contingent to 9 or 10. Of course, a lot can happen between now and then, perhaps 12-13 Welsh. :thumbup:
Josh Adams would be first choice winger in a combined squad. Tomos Williams and Gareth Davies would be first and second choice 9’s. A lot of the other players would be a tossup, such as Owens and George.

Gatland is just talking himself up here, with an eye on the NZ job.
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MrDominator
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by MrDominator »

I think what Gatland is hinting at, lads, is that your plucky but limited player pool is going to severely struggle now that the Man himself has departed.

Self-serving, no doubt, but probably accurate.
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Jeff the Bear
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by Jeff the Bear »

My mixed squad:

Luke Cowan-Dickie Hooker 20 June 1993 (aged 26) 15 Exeter Chiefs
Jamie George Hooker 20 October 1990 (aged 28) 40 Saracens
Ken Owens Hooker 3 January 1987 (aged 32) 67 Scarlets

Dan Cole Prop 9 May 1987 (aged 32) 89 Leicester Tigers
Ellis Genge Prop 16 February 1995 (aged 24) 12 Leicester Tigers
Joe Marler Prop 7 July 1990 (aged 29) 62 Harlequins
Kyle Sinckler Prop 30 March 1993 (aged 26) 25 Harlequins
Mako Vunipola Prop 14 January 1991 (aged 28) 54 Saracens

Maro Itoje Lock 28 October 1994 (aged 24) 29 Saracens
George Kruis Lock 22 February 1990 (aged 29) 35 Saracens
Alun Wyn Jones (c) Lock 19 September 1985 (aged 34) 128 Ospreys
Courtney Lawes Lock 23 February 1989 (aged 30) 75 Northampton Saints

Tom Curry Back row 15 June 1998 (aged 21) 13 Sale Sharks
Justin Tipuric Back row 6 August 1989 (aged 30) 66 Ospreys
Sam Underhill Back row 22 July 1996 (aged 23) 10 Bath
Josh Navidi Back row 30 December 1990 (aged 28) 19 Cardiff Blues
Billy Vunipola Back row 3 November 1992 (aged 26) 45 Saracens

Gareth Davies Scrum-half 18 August 1990 (aged 29) 44 Scarlets
Tomos Williams Scrum-half 1 January 1995 (aged 24) 9 Cardiff Blues

Owen Farrell (c) Fly-half 24 September 1991 (aged 27) 73 Saracens
George Ford Fly-half 16 March 1993 (aged 26) 59 Leicester Tigers
Dan Biggar Fly-half 16 October 1989 (aged 29) 73 England Northampton Saints

Jonathan Davies Centre 5 April 1988 (aged 31) 76 Scarlets
Jonathan Joseph Centre 21 May 1991 (aged 28) 42 Bath
Henry Slade Centre 19 March 1993 (aged 26) 22 Exeter Chiefs
Manu Tuilagi Centre 18 May 1991 (aged 28) 35 Leicester Tigers

Joe Cokanasiga Wing 15 November 1997 (aged 21) 8 Bath
Jonny May Wing 1 April 1990 (aged 29) 47 Leicester Tigers
Josh Adams Wing 21 April 1995 (aged 24) 14 Cardiff Blues
Jack Nowell Wing 11 April 1993 (aged 26) 33 Exeter Chiefs
Anthony Watson Wing 26 February 1994 (aged 25) 36 Bath
Liam Williams Fullback 9 April 1991 (aged 28) 58 England Saracens


So I make it 10 Welsh, 21 English.

Probably worth pointing out that the backrow might take a distinct Welsh turn were Ellis Jenkins and Faletau available.

My joint team would be:

15. Liam Williams
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jon Davies
12. Manu Tuilagi
11. Josh Adams
10. Owen Farrell
9. Tomos Williams

8. Billy Vunipola
7. Justin Tipuric
6. Tom Curry
5. Alun Wyn Jones
4. Maro Itoje
3. Kyle Sinkcler
2. Ken Owens
1. Mako Vunipola

7 Welsh, 8 English.

Throw the odd Irish player in, and you've got a quality Lions team there. :thumbup:
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LandOTurk
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by LandOTurk »

MrDominator wrote:I think what Gatland is hinting at, lads, is that your plucky but limited player pool is going to severely struggle now that the Man himself has departed.

Self-serving, no doubt, but probably accurate.
MrDominator with breakthrough in rugby knowledge, in that word class coaching makes you better. See England before Jones. :uhoh:
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LandOTurk
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by LandOTurk »

Jeff the Bear wrote:My mixed squad:

Luke Cowan-Dickie Hooker 20 June 1993 (aged 26) 15 Exeter Chiefs
Jamie George Hooker 20 October 1990 (aged 28) 40 Saracens
Ken Owens Hooker 3 January 1987 (aged 32) 67 Scarlets

Dan Cole Prop 9 May 1987 (aged 32) 89 Leicester Tigers
Ellis Genge Prop 16 February 1995 (aged 24) 12 Leicester Tigers
Joe Marler Prop 7 July 1990 (aged 29) 62 Harlequins
Kyle Sinckler Prop 30 March 1993 (aged 26) 25 Harlequins
Mako Vunipola Prop 14 January 1991 (aged 28) 54 Saracens

Maro Itoje Lock 28 October 1994 (aged 24) 29 Saracens
George Kruis Lock 22 February 1990 (aged 29) 35 Saracens
Alun Wyn Jones (c) Lock 19 September 1985 (aged 34) 128 Ospreys
Courtney Lawes Lock 23 February 1989 (aged 30) 75 Northampton Saints

Tom Curry Back row 15 June 1998 (aged 21) 13 Sale Sharks
Justin Tipuric Back row 6 August 1989 (aged 30) 66 Ospreys
Sam Underhill Back row 22 July 1996 (aged 23) 10 Bath
Josh Navidi Back row 30 December 1990 (aged 28) 19 Cardiff Blues
Billy Vunipola Back row 3 November 1992 (aged 26) 45 Saracens

Gareth Davies Scrum-half 18 August 1990 (aged 29) 44 Scarlets
Tomos Williams Scrum-half 1 January 1995 (aged 24) 9 Cardiff Blues

Owen Farrell (c) Fly-half 24 September 1991 (aged 27) 73 Saracens
George Ford Fly-half 16 March 1993 (aged 26) 59 Leicester Tigers
Dan Biggar Fly-half 16 October 1989 (aged 29) 73 England Northampton Saints

Jonathan Davies Centre 5 April 1988 (aged 31) 76 Scarlets
Jonathan Joseph Centre 21 May 1991 (aged 28) 42 Bath
Henry Slade Centre 19 March 1993 (aged 26) 22 Exeter Chiefs
Manu Tuilagi Centre 18 May 1991 (aged 28) 35 Leicester Tigers

Joe Cokanasiga Wing 15 November 1997 (aged 21) 8 Bath
Jonny May Wing 1 April 1990 (aged 29) 47 Leicester Tigers
Josh Adams Wing 21 April 1995 (aged 24) 14 Cardiff Blues
Jack Nowell Wing 11 April 1993 (aged 26) 33 Exeter Chiefs
Anthony Watson Wing 26 February 1994 (aged 25) 36 Bath
Liam Williams Fullback 9 April 1991 (aged 28) 58 England Saracens


So I make it 10 Welsh, 21 English.

Probably worth pointing out that the backrow might take a distinct Welsh turn were Ellis Jenkins and Faletau available.

My joint team would be:

15. Liam Williams
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jon Davies
12. Manu Tuilagi
11. Josh Adams
10. Owen Farrell
9. Tomos Williams

8. Billy Vunipola
7. Justin Tipuric
6. Tom Curry
5. Alun Wyn Jones
4. Maro Itoje
3. Kyle Sinkcler
2. Ken Owens
1. Mako Vunipola

7 Welsh, 8 English.

Throw the odd Irish player in, and you've got a quality Lions team there. :thumbup:
Missing Taulupe Falatau.
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Short Man Syndrome
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by Short Man Syndrome »

Foxy and Patch both banjaxed, out for 6 and 4 months, respectively.

:(
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bessantj
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by bessantj »

Short Man Syndrome wrote:Foxy and Patch both banjaxed, out for 6 and 4 months, respectively.

:(
What's up with them?

Also we should go back to the old Merit Table. I think people will watch South Wales Police v Penarth.
Last edited by bessantj on Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LandOTurk
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Re: The Official Welsh Rugby Thread

Post by LandOTurk »

Short Man Syndrome wrote:Foxy and Patch both banjaxed, out for 6 and 4 months, respectively.

:(
FFS x(
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