Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African referees?

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Hong Kong
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Hong Kong »

Kiwias wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Rinkals wrote: He should have had the book thrown at him.

Being told that he was wrong and getting a week off was the absolute minimum he could expect and the fact that you are presenting it as harsh makes it feel like you are being supportive of him

I want a punishment which will make him think twice before doing it again and send a warning to others who might be tempted to intervene on behalf of their favourite teams.
That's just emotion on your part.

He was sanctioned. Being stood down as a ref is a serious punishment.
Is there any likelihood of his being removed from the RWC panel?
Not at this stage - unless there is another serious error in his games, I’d say he would be safe. There are only 4 TMOs, IIRC, for the RWC and finding another at short notice would not be impossible but the pool, whilst large, does not necessarily contain guys of the calibre required at the RWC
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Hong Kong wrote: Not at this stage - unless there is another serious error in his games, I’d say he would be safe. There are only 4 TMOs, IIRC, for the RWC and finding another at short notice would not be impossible but the pool, whilst large, does not necessarily contain guys of the calibre required at the RWC
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Jensrsa »

Hong Kong wrote: Not at this stage - unless there is another serious error in his games, I’d say he would be safe. There are only 4 TMOs, IIRC, for the RWC and finding another at short notice would not be impossible but the pool, whilst large, does not necessarily contain guys of the calibre required at the RWC
I would think that the chance of Jonker being TMO in the semis or final is rather slim after this
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Rinkals
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Rinkals »

Jensrsa wrote:
Hong Kong wrote: Not at this stage - unless there is another serious error in his games, I’d say he would be safe. There are only 4 TMOs, IIRC, for the RWC and finding another at short notice would not be impossible but the pool, whilst large, does not necessarily contain guys of the calibre required at the RWC
I would think that the chance of Jonker being TMO in the semis or final is rather slim after this
You'd hope so, but we'll see.

I rather suspect that it'll just be brushed under the carpet.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Another bizarre refereeing performance overnight by Jaco Peyper in the Lions vs Reds match. Yet again we find a South African referee being extremely generous to a South African team playing an visiting franchise.

When is SANZAAR going to act to stop the blatant bias being shown by South African referees towards their home teams? This beyond a joke now. It has been happening for years, yet the more people complain the more SANZAAR dig their heels in. How many 20-1 penalty counts do we need before SANZAAR acts?
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by jdogscoop »

Ali's Choice wrote:Another bizarre refereeing performance overnight by Jaco Peyper in the Lions vs Reds match. Yet again we find a South African referee being extremely generous to a South African team playing an visiting franchise.

When is SANZAAR going to act to stop the blatant bias being shown by South African referees towards their home teams? This beyond a joke now. It has been happening for years, yet the more people complain the more SANZAAR dig their heels in. How many 20-1 penalty counts do we need before SANZAAR acts?
Peyper is one of my favourite refs. I cannot accept he would be complicit in some sort of corrupt SA reffing ring.
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Chilli
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Chilli »

Ali's Choice wrote:Another bizarre refereeing performance overnight by Jaco Peyper in the Lions vs Reds match. Yet again we find a South African referee being extremely generous to a South African team playing an visiting franchise.

When is SANZAAR going to act to stop the blatant bias being shown by South African referees towards their home teams? This beyond a joke now. It has been happening for years, yet the more people complain the more SANZAAR dig their heels in. How many 20-1 penalty counts do we need before SANZAAR acts?
Beating the same old drum. You need to get new material. You are a bore.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ted. »

Rasta was fine today. I do believe he's improving. :nod:

It was a neutral venue for him, of course.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Chilli »

Ted. wrote:Rasta was fine today. I do believe he's improving. :nod:

It was a neutral venue for him, of course.
Rasta is just a crap ref. Good to hear that he had a "fine" game.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ted. »

Chilli wrote:
Ted. wrote:Rasta was fine today. I do believe he's improving. :nod:

It was a neutral venue for him, of course.
Rasta is just a crap ref. Good to hear that he had a "fine" game.
TBH, I haven't been overly impressed with his previously and he did make a few mistakes, but nothing too outrageous and he kept a lid on things. Perhaps it's a confidence thing.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by jdogscoop »

Definitely better than Egon "to ref the" Seconds.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by kiwinoz »

Rasta telling Creevey that "I am begging you not to keep doing it" was not a good look. They (Rasta and AR) missed a shocker of a knock on by the Jags about 5 min from the end too.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by towny »

Ali's Choice wrote:Another bizarre refereeing performance overnight by Jaco Peyper in the Lions vs Reds match. Yet again we find a South African referee being extremely generous to a South African team playing an visiting franchise.

When is SANZAAR going to act to stop the blatant bias being shown by South African referees towards their home teams? This beyond a joke now. It has been happening for years, yet the more people complain the more SANZAAR dig their heels in. How many 20-1 penalty counts do we need before SANZAAR acts?
Really? There was one issue when he thought he made a BAD call against the Reds - a Lions’ player being allowed to use his hands in a ruck when the Reds looked certain to score. Just my opinion so maybe he ruled for one reason or another and wasn’t even wrong. For the other calls, I didn’t see any that were howlers, and during a Reds’ game I am ludicrously biased. Actually thought he had a good game. He awarded the Reds a few crucial penalties at the scrum - 100% deserved - that would have been simple to give the other way if he desired (i.e. he was bent).

I personally think Peyper would go close to the top 3 refs in the world. Seems like a good c*nt too.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Crazy Ed »

The bloke from the Saders Chiefs game was far worse.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by MungoMan »

towny wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:Another bizarre refereeing performance overnight by Jaco Peyper in the Lions vs Reds match. Yet again we find a South African referee being extremely generous to a South African team playing an visiting franchise.

When is SANZAAR going to act to stop the blatant bias being shown by South African referees towards their home teams? This beyond a joke now. It has been happening for years, yet the more people complain the more SANZAAR dig their heels in. How many 20-1 penalty counts do we need before SANZAAR acts?
Really? There was one issue when he thought he made a BAD call against the Reds - a Lions’ player being allowed to use his hands in a ruck when the Reds looked certain to score. Just my opinion so maybe he ruled for one reason or another and wasn’t even wrong. For the other calls, I didn’t see any that were howlers, and during a Reds’ game I am ludicrously biased. Actually thought he had a good game. He awarded the Reds a few crucial penalties at the scrum - 100% deserved - that would have been simple to give the other way if he desired (i.e. he was bent).

I personally think Peyper would go close to the top 3 refs in the world. Seems like a good c*nt too.
Much as I snarled about the second yellow, Peyper was not too bad.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Thomas »

Jaco's reluctance to give the Lions a yellow card despite multiple try line infringements was all too apparent. Of course, he was super quick to deal out the cards to the Reds.

I don't think he or other Saffa refs are bent. I just think they ref non-Saffa teams differently. They probably don't even know they're doing it. Saffa commentators are the same. They see every slight infringement against their teams but are blind when Saffa teams infringe.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by towny »

Thomas wrote:Jaco's reluctance to give the Lions a yellow card despite multiple try line infringements was all too apparent. Of course, he was super quick to deal out the cards to the Reds.

I don't think he or other Saffa refs are bent. I just think they ref non-Saffa teams differently. They probably don't even know they're doing it. Saffa commentators are the same. They see every slight infringement against their teams but are blind when Saffa teams infringe.
I think scrum penalties are harder to assign YCs to. There was one time I think a Lions’ YC was warranted, and he allowed play on. That made me yell out bad words.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Thomas »

I was going to start a new thread about neutral refs but decided to post this here. A bloke at GAGR has done some stat work following the Reds loss to the Jaguares after being on the end of a 13-3 penalty count.

Big ups to the Kiwi refs who ping the shit out of their own teams. But there's a staggering skew in South Africa.

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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Thomas wrote:I was going to start a new thread about neutral refs but decided to post this here. A bloke at GAGR has done some stat work following the Reds loss to the Jaguares after being on the end of a 13-3 penalty count.

Big ups to the Kiwi refs who ping the shit out of their own teams. But there's a staggering skew in South Africa.

Image
I saw that on G&G.

Unbelievable and more clear evidence that South African referees are crooked and shamelessly biased towards their own teams. Pathetic!
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by mrbrownstone »

Thomas wrote:I was going to start a new thread about neutral refs but decided to post this here. A bloke at GAGR has done some stat work following the Reds loss to the Jaguares after being on the end of a 13-3 penalty count.

Big ups to the Kiwi refs who ping the shit out of their own teams. But there's a staggering skew in South Africa.

Image
As if people needed any more reason not to get up at 3am to watch South African games, there it is.

Tbh that's been obvious for a while though. Was hoping it would improve this year with no Stuart Berry or Egon Seconds though.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Everyone involved with South African Rugby should be utterly ashamed of that data.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Thomas »

Ali's Choice wrote:Everyone involved with South African Rugby should be utterly ashamed of that data.
The sooner they fuck off to Europe, the better.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Thomas wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:Everyone involved with South African Rugby should be utterly ashamed of that data.
The sooner they fuck off to Europe, the better.
:thumbup: Amen brother, and they can take their crooked match officials with them.

Tbh, SANZAAR is to blame here, not the crooked South Africans. It was SANZAAR that left vampires in charges of the blood bank. It's been obvious that this experiment with non-neutral referees has been a failure but they have persisted with it. South Africans are too proud, and have too big a chip on their shoulder, to be able to officiate their own teams in a fair, balanced and impartial way.

But regardless of who is to blame, it's just a further nail in this tournament's coffin. Who is going to stay up till 3am to watch their team get hammered 13-2 in the penalty count by a local official who spends the entire match penalising the visiting team whilst joking with the home players on Afrikaans?
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Marshall Banana »

Super Rugby ‘home town refs’ penalty awarded differential since 2017:
Australia (+16)
New Zealand (-15)
South Africa (+159)
Argentina (+19)

Yes, that’s right, +159
That's insane. :lol:

But not at all surprising...
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by assfly »

All I see is outstanding discipline from the South African sides.

Those are the sort of statistics that win world cups.

It's a shame the referees are seen as the first target.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Ted. wrote:I'll dot my thread.

This rightly belongs here:

Study shows huge bias by 'home' refs towards South African teams in Super Rugby
Farking hell, this is getting mainstream traction?

Unfortunately while the premise is undoubtedly correct (I did my own comparison back in 2017 looking at all SR games from 2012-17 which came to exactly the same conclusion - my painstaking research was much appreciated by Saffers at the time of course) the mainstream media to jumping all over this is misguided.

Those stats don’t use neutral ref performances as a comparison, and are based on a relatively small sample size. They open themselves up to criticism and deflection.

It’s a case of getting Gaggered. Remember when another fanboy did something similar based on just 2010 Tri Nations results, also getting mainstream coverage sometimes repeated as gospel by Australian media types? That was also based on a (even smaller) sample size, and the results were reversed in the following years - which of course no one from Green and Gold was going to follow up on.

They need to highlight this shit properly
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ted. »

This is probably worthy of its own thread, but also relevant here. i.e. despite that:

Extract - Inky Backend wrote:GIVING HOME AWAY

Here is the raw data on all-time away win percentage:

1. 54.5% Crusaders
2. 45.6% Hurricanes
3. 43.5% Chiefs
4. 41.3% Stormers
5. 40.5% Brumbies
6. 39.4% Jaguares
7. 38.9% Sharks
8. 38.3% Waratahs
9. 37.2% Highlanders
10. 36.4% Blues
11. 31.2% Bulls
12. 28.8% Reds
13. 26.2% Lions
14. 23.3% Rebels
15. 6.5% Sunwolves

To see who’s over-performing on that ladder, compare it with their all-time home win percentage:

1. 83.7% Crusaders
2. 73.0% Brumbies
3. 68.3% Hurricanes
4. 65.7% Waratahs
5. 64.8% Chiefs
6. 64.3% Stormers
7. 63.9% Blues
8. 63.8% Sharks
9. 63.6% Bulls
10. 61.5% Highlanders
11. 61.1% Jaguares
12. 58.5% Reds
13. 48.0% Lions
14. 40.3% Rebels
15. 21.2% Sunwolves

Adjust for the percentage of weak teams visiting/visited and you have a clear picture of how far a team has to travel in a particular direction before it becomes vulnerable to road fatigue.

Want to see Australian teams’ winning percentages at New Zealand venues?

1. 31.1% Brumbies
2. 25.8% Waratahs
3. 19.3% Reds
4. 10.5% Rebels

South African teams’ winning percentages at Australian venues?

1. 45.9% Stormers
2. 31.7% Sharks
3. 27.0% Lions
4. 25.6% Bulls

Hmmm... how about New Zealand teams’ winning percentages in South Africa?

1. 56.4% Crusaders
2. 47.1% Hurricanes
3. 43.4% Highlanders
4. 43.1% Chiefs
5. 40.0% Blues

So you might not be surprised that New Zealand teams have a distinctly better record in South Africa than Australian teams do in New Zealand, traveling five times the distance and not returning home between games, but who knew the Highlanders win more often in South Africa than any foreign team wins anywhere?

Apply more specific records to each upcoming match and you’ll get an idea of how the bookies set their odds. Like, before last week’s match the Highlanders had beaten the Sharks five times out of ten in Dunedin. That made the Sharks an attractive bet.
https://mailchi.mp/a532f67974f9/giving- ... 703eeacdba

Farking Canes, grumble grunble grumble! :frown:
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

assfly wrote:All I see is outstanding discipline from the South African sides.
Because the data shown allows you that (rather weak) get out of jail card.

At least for the first 8 seasons of the comp this century - and probably before, and after - neutral refs penalised SANZAAR at incredibly similar rates. From memory, it was around 9 pens per game regardless of nationality. No nation was any more or less disciplined than the other. The massive outlier was SA teams with an SA ref - they were suddenly incredibly disciplined.

Now a generous assessment would be that there are cultural reasons for this - more familiarity with the local ref and his interpretations etc. But the difference was marked, and it was consistent for every season since neutral refs were reduced.

Half-pie samples like this latest GAGR just provide grist to the mill of those are always prepared to screech about bias, justified or otherwise. SANZAAR need to reintroduce full neutrality to silence that crowd, regardless of the cost.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ted. »

naki wrote:
assfly wrote:All I see is outstanding discipline from the South African sides.
Because the data shown allows you that (rather weak) get out of jail card.

At least for the first 8 seasons of the comp this century - and probably before, and after - neutral refs penalised SANZAAR at incredibly similar rates. From memory, it was around 9 pens per game regardless of nationality. No nation was any more or less disciplined than the other. The massive outlier was SA teams with an SA ref - they were suddenly incredibly disciplined.

Now a generous assessment would be that there are cultural reasons for this - more familiarity with the local ref and his interpretations etc. But the difference was marked, and it was consistent for every season since neutral refs were reduced.

Half-pie samples like this latest GAGR just provide grist to the mill of those are always prepared to screech about bias, justified or otherwise. SANZAAR need to reintroduce full neutrality to silence that crowd, regardless of the cost.

Couldn't agree more, Naks.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

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naki wrote:
assfly wrote:All I see is outstanding discipline from the South African sides.
Because the data shown allows you that (rather weak) get out of jail card.

At least for the first 8 seasons of the comp this century - and probably before, and after - neutral refs penalised SANZAAR at incredibly similar rates. From memory, it was around 9 pens per game regardless of nationality. No nation was any more or less disciplined than the other. The massive outlier was SA teams with an SA ref - they were suddenly incredibly disciplined.

Now a generous assessment would be that there are cultural reasons for this - more familiarity with the local ref and his interpretations etc. But the difference was marked, and it was consistent for every season since neutral refs were reduced.

Half-pie samples like this latest GAGR just provide grist to the mill of those are always prepared to screech about bias, justified or otherwise. SANZAAR need to reintroduce full neutrality to silence that crowd, regardless of the cost.
I love a good screech. Yes indeed. It's hard to take when it's your team getting rooted by the ref who is speaking Spanish to one team.

But looking at the data, you take out Egon seconds and the Saffa numbers drop considerable. Same with old mate from Argentina.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Enzedder »

maybe the Aussies, Kiwis and Argies are good at converting an advantage, and the Saffers are crap at it
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Marshall Banana »

From what I've watched so far this season, AJ Jacobs, and Rasta, have been good. I'd prefer them in charge of a Blues game - home or away - over O'Keeffe.

Not that it really matters with the Blosers. Auckman could be in charge and they'd still find a way to fark things up...
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Ted. wrote:
naki wrote:
assfly wrote:All I see is outstanding discipline from the South African sides.
Because the data shown allows you that (rather weak) get out of jail card.

At least for the first 8 seasons of the comp this century - and probably before, and after - neutral refs penalised SANZAAR at incredibly similar rates. From memory, it was around 9 pens per game regardless of nationality. No nation was any more or less disciplined than the other. The massive outlier was SA teams with an SA ref - they were suddenly incredibly disciplined.

Now a generous assessment would be that there are cultural reasons for this - more familiarity with the local ref and his interpretations etc. But the difference was marked, and it was consistent for every season since neutral refs were reduced.

Half-pie samples like this latest GAGR just provide grist to the mill of those are always prepared to screech about bias, justified or otherwise. SANZAAR need to reintroduce full neutrality to silence that crowd, regardless of the cost.

Couldn't agree more, Naks.
Well I have to say that I have almost always preferred to have a SA ref in a neutral capacity, especially when it comes to test rugby, as with few exceptions they tend to be among the best in the business and canny kiwi captains tend to build good relationships with them on the field. I would prefer to have a well established SA ref officiating my team than some kiwi refs for sure - especially since there is now a consistent trend of kiwi refs penalising kiwi teams more often than their foreign counterparts.

One of my biggest gripes about rugby is ref whinging, it’s too easy to indulge in and we’re all susceptible to it. These stats don’t help
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Marshall Banana wrote:From what I've watched so far this season, AJ Jacobs, and Rasta, have been good. I'd prefer them in charge of a Blues game - home or away - over O'Keeffe.

Not that it really matters with the Blosers. Auckman could be in charge and they'd still find a way to fark things up...
Yeah I liked what I’ve seen from Rasta this year, can’t remember how long he’s been around now but he definitely has the bearing of a senior ref now
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Thomas »

Enzedder wrote:maybe the Aussies, Kiwis and Argies are good at converting an advantage, and the Saffers are crap at it
That's actually a good point. It has been noted that there were two penalty advantages on the weekend that the Reds took and used.

Perhaps the adopted Saffa attacking plan (hoof it into the stratosphere and chase) isn't as conducive in converting an advantage when compared to chancing your arm and running it.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Fat Old Git »

assfly wrote:All I see is outstanding discipline from the South African sides.

Those are the sort of statistics that win world cups.

It's a shame the referees are seen as the first target.
Outstanding discipline indeed. Which strangely slips when playing outside of South Africa, or when playing in South Africa against another South African team.

Or did I miss all those 2-1 penalty counts in the local derbies?
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Enzedder wrote:maybe the Aussies, Kiwis and Argies are good at converting an advantage, and the Saffers are crap at it
It’s something not factored into these kinds of “studies”. For example, the Sharks looked like they were struggling with a lop-sided penalty count in the first half of that game on the weekend but they were so efficient at collecting points or at least gaining territory when under advantage that penalties they would have accrued got chalked off.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Crazy Ed »

So Refs don't have the balls to penalise Kiwis unless they are in a safe country.
The Dane Coles attempted Murder this weekend stands to clarify my point. Nothing to see here move along.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Lemoentjie »

How many games is that +159 across?
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