Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African referees?

All things Rugby
User avatar
rabble
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by rabble »

Fat Old Git wrote:
assfly wrote:All I see is outstanding discipline from the South African sides.

Those are the sort of statistics that win world cups.

It's a shame the referees are seen as the first target.
Outstanding discipline indeed. Which strangely slips when playing outside of South Africa, or when playing in South Africa against another South African team.

Or did I miss all those 2-1 penalty counts in the local derbies?
That's when the cheaty non-saffa refs don't award them the penalties they should have.
User avatar
handyman
Posts: 14094
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by handyman »

:thumbup: :lol: Loving this fred.


Let's get the Japies!
User avatar
Sandstorm
Posts: 28498
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Chickenrunning...

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Sandstorm »

Hmmm...I heard fans bitching about Nick Berry and Federico Anselmi this weekend. I guess all refs are "bad"
Crazy Ed
Posts: 1243
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Crazy Ed »

x
User avatar
Blake
Posts: 4616
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Cape Town

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Blake »

naki wrote:
assfly wrote:All I see is outstanding discipline from the South African sides.
Because the data shown allows you that (rather weak) get out of jail card.

At least for the first 8 seasons of the comp this century - and probably before, and after - neutral refs penalised SANZAAR at incredibly similar rates. From memory, it was around 9 pens per game regardless of nationality. No nation was any more or less disciplined than the other. The massive outlier was SA teams with an SA ref - they were suddenly incredibly disciplined.

Now a generous assessment would be that there are cultural reasons for this - more familiarity with the local ref and his interpretations etc. But the difference was marked, and it was consistent for every season since neutral refs were reduced.

Half-pie samples like this latest GAGR just provide grist to the mill of those are always prepared to screech about bias, justified or otherwise. SANZAAR need to reintroduce full neutrality to silence that crowd, regardless of the cost.
I would be inn favour of this also, not only to address the bias accusations, but also to give our players more exposure to the NZ and Aus referees they are likely to encounter during TRC and World Cup. It's a win-win for all involved.


Enzedder wrote:maybe the Aussies, Kiwis and Argies are good at converting an advantage, and the Saffers are crap at it
I hadn't considered this, but I think it's a very good point as well.
It would be interesting if "advantage conversion rate" was ever measured. I suspect the South African sides would have a terrible record. It's a huge frustration of mine when watching our teams.
User avatar
Slim 293
Posts: 5541
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Straya plum

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Slim 293 »

Mr Andy Marinos
Chief Executive Office
SANZAAR

Dear Andy:

I write to you on behalf of the readers of the biggest supporter driven web site in Australian Rugby – Green and Gold Rugby (http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com) as well as, it would seem from recent social media activity, many rugby fans across the southern hemisphere.

I am sure you have seen the media that has been driven by some preliminary research one of our contributors pulled together around the impact of home referees in Super Rugby over recent years. The content was shared widely on social media and picked up by traditional media in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa at least.

We received considerable feedback on this data, largely supportive of the message it told, but some also questioning aspects of its relevance. It was the result of some of this questioning that has prompted us to do additional research into the matter and has, in turn, prompted this letter to you.

The figures, which I will present to you shortly, show the impact of home referees on international Super Rugby matches and calls to question the integrity of Super Rugby more broadly. Further, meaningful consideration must be given to how South African referees are used in these matches moving forward.

Allow me to set the scene first. We investigated all Super Rugby matches played over the last three completed seasons, being 2017 to 2019 using data from the official Super Rugby website. To determine the impact of ‘home referees’ we focused solely on matches between teams from different countries, i.e. no local derbies.

One of the most common responses by people questioning our initial results was that ‘Home Ground Advantage’ (HGA) was an accepted factor in such games. This may be with regards to the impact of crowds, travel, hotels, etc. on the match outcome. It should not be a factor with regards match officiating. And in fact, it isn’t. From the 246 matches in our sample the penalty count was 2,176 against the home team and 2,374 against the away team. That works out to a per match count of 8.85 to 9.65, or a ‘Home Ground Advantage” of 0.80 of one penalty.

The table below breaks this down a little further.
Spoiler: show
Image
You will see when we dig deeper that neutral referees (i.e. those from neither country represented in the match) produce staggeringly consistent results at a nominal 0.20 HGA. Even when the referee is from the visiting country, the HGA is relatively insignificant.

The concern comes from when a referee from the same country as the home team is in control of the game. On these occasions, 105 times over the previous three seasons, the home team receives an average of 1.56 additional penalties each game. From a per match perspective perhaps these figures don’t raise too many concerns. Less than a couple of penalties a match difference? Who cares, right?

Well, perhaps, but it was worth delving a little deeper. So, let’s look at the breakdown of those hometown performances. Again, please refer to the below table for a summary based on the nationality of the referee.
Spoiler: show
Image
While the overall figure of 1.56 penalties per match in favour of the home team under a home team referee could be argued is not cause for concern, the figures per nation should raise alarm bells. We are happy to put aside the two home matches the Jaguares have had refereed by a local as a small sample size.

What is more of a concern is the impact of South African referees when they are refereeing matches within the Republic. On these occasions they are favouring the home team by an alarming 3.67 penalties a match. When compared to Australian (whose HGA is 0.50) and New Zealand referees (an HGA of -0.26), the South African statistics raise even more concerns.

It is also worth noting that of the 200 Yellow Cards that were given out across the 246 games studied, just under 60% of them were given to the visiting team. However South African referees when officiating at home give almost 75% of their yellow cards to the visiting team.
Spoiler: show
Image
Again, we wanted to dig into these hometown refereeing stats a little further and break it down per referee. Let’s start in our own backyard and look at Australia.

In the below table you will note a couple of high HGA numbers against Damon Murphy and Will Houston, however as both have only refereed one match at home, we can discount them. As a result, Angus Gardner has the highest HGA at 0.93 which is a barely above the ‘all referee’ average (0.80). Nic Berry, across his four games, seems to favour the away team which is a concern for sure but perhaps the subject of a separate review.
Spoiler: show
Image
Moving across to New Zealand, remember that their overall HGA had them very slightly favouring the away team. However, they do have a few individuals who have a trend towards awarding more penalties to the visiting team. Ben O’Keefe at 2.50 penalties a game leads the pack from Mike Fraser and Brendon Pickerill at HGAs of just over 1 penalty a game. Similarly, to Berry there are some officials that go too far the other way with Nick Briant (-4.0) and Jamie Nutbrown (-2.33) leaning towards the away team.
Spoiler: show
Image
Which brings us to South Africa. Every single South African referee’s figures indicate an HGA in favour of the teams from their nation. More significantly some of the numbers are seriously concerning. Egon Seconds rules on average 6 extra penalties a match against the visiting team, while Rasta Rasivhenge is not far behind with 4.67 extra penalties whereas Marius van der Westhuizen sits in third spot with a 2.86 HGA. All three record HGA figures that are higher than any other nation’s referees.
Spoiler: show
Image
Andy, there are further figures that I could throw at you to further our case here but if the above doesn’t tell the story then I don’t think anything will. Our initial investigations alluded to potential concerns around the Match Officiating strategy within Super Rugby. Our follow up has proved that it is a serious afront to the legitimacy of this competition.

It is our belief that SANZAAR should pursue a policy of neutral referees wherever possible. If nothing else, it will allow the fans to focus on the match free from any concerns regarding the affiliation of the referee. However, our analysis has shown that these concerns are valid when one examines matches in South Africa that are overseen by a local official.

We will be posting these figures and letter on our website as a follow up to our initial research. We would welcome a response by you, either written or otherwise at your earliest convenience. We would be more than happy to provide more information on our methodology if required.

Sincerely,

Reg Roberts
Green and Gold Rugby

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/a-lett ... o-sanzaar/
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14209
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Noddy, you flamin’ gallah, go back to at least a decade. This three seasons only bullshit can easily be dismissed as anomalous.

He’ll find exactly the same thing, the data is there. Hopefully he still lurks here. G’day, Noddy :nod:
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14209
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Marinos has fired back saying the Aussies are whinging pricks while throwing Gardner under the bus for good measure.
G&G Rugby on Wednesday followed up its original research with an open letter addressed directly SANZAAR boss Andy Marinos, again calling on the chief executive to respond.

And finally he did, Marinos attributing the backlash to disenchantment from the Australian rugby community.

"It's very interesting that the whole neutrality (issue) comes up, when we've been on a meritocracy basis for the last 10 or 12 years, so I find that quite interesting at this point in time," Marinos told reporters during a bushfire fundraiser put on by the Lions in Sydney. "I think you've got to take a lens to where it's coming from.

"People are always producing statistics, but we will at the right time communicate our view on where we are from a competition perspective and the performances of our referees. I just don't understand where, all of sudden, after 10 years of meritocracy, suddenly now neutrality becomes an issue because a team, or teams, are suddenly are now feeling aggrieved by processes.

"I think what we need to do, is we need to validate those numbers, we need to put a proper picture in place, which is something we'll do and we'll be responding in due course on that."

Just when SANZAAR finalises that process remains unclear.

But Marinos called on the Australian rugby community to take a closer look at its own backyard in the meantime, alluding to some instances where the country's leading whistleblower Angus Gardner had come in for criticism in the past, most recently last year's World Cup.


"Minds are very very short in this [Australian] market where it wasn't so long ago that Angus Gardner got a bit of a public exposé in his internationals and his performance and there was a massive outcry about it; a very upset outcry, especially by Australia around 'how dare he be put up there and vilified, been made and used as a scapegoat, and his performances should be treated as confidential,'" Marinos said.

"So we've got a delicate balance here because what I do know and I've spent a lot of time talking to the refs, is that they don't go out there to deliberately negatively manipulate the outcome of a game and at the end of the day they're trying to manage what is a very [difficult] situation the best they can.

"Could we engage a bit more in terms on how we feel the referees are tracking? Absolutely; communication is certainly something that can be improved."
User avatar
handyman
Posts: 14094
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by handyman »

Australia, we're happy to help out with production of armbands, we'll do anything to improve our economy.
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14209
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

handyman wrote:Australia, we're happy to help out with production of armbands, we'll do anything to improve our economy.
Too late, I’ve already snapped up all available global stocks in anticipation of an average All Blacks year
User avatar
Thomas
Posts: 16404
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: STRAYA!

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Thomas »

naki wrote:Noddy, you flamin’ gallah, go back to at least a decade. This three seasons only bullshit can easily be dismissed as anomalous.

He’ll find exactly the same thing, the data is there. Hopefully he still lurks here. G’day, Noddy :nod:
He doesn't lurk here. He actively posts. ;)

When did they bring in the non-neutral refs?
User avatar
Thomas
Posts: 16404
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: STRAYA!

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Thomas »

naki wrote:Marinos has fired back saying the Aussies are whinging pricks while throwing Gardner under the bus for good measure.
G&G Rugby on Wednesday followed up its original research with an open letter addressed directly SANZAAR boss Andy Marinos, again calling on the chief executive to respond.

And finally he did, Marinos attributing the backlash to disenchantment from the Australian rugby community.

"It's very interesting that the whole neutrality (issue) comes up, when we've been on a meritocracy basis for the last 10 or 12 years, so I find that quite interesting at this point in time," Marinos told reporters during a bushfire fundraiser put on by the Lions in Sydney. "I think you've got to take a lens to where it's coming from.

"People are always producing statistics, but we will at the right time communicate our view on where we are from a competition perspective and the performances of our referees. I just don't understand where, all of sudden, after 10 years of meritocracy, suddenly now neutrality becomes an issue because a team, or teams, are suddenly are now feeling aggrieved by processes.

"I think what we need to do, is we need to validate those numbers, we need to put a proper picture in place, which is something we'll do and we'll be responding in due course on that."

Just when SANZAAR finalises that process remains unclear.

But Marinos called on the Australian rugby community to take a closer look at its own backyard in the meantime, alluding to some instances where the country's leading whistleblower Angus Gardner had come in for criticism in the past, most recently last year's World Cup.


"Minds are very very short in this [Australian] market where it wasn't so long ago that Angus Gardner got a bit of a public exposé in his internationals and his performance and there was a massive outcry about it; a very upset outcry, especially by Australia around 'how dare he be put up there and vilified, been made and used as a scapegoat, and his performances should be treated as confidential,'" Marinos said.

"So we've got a delicate balance here because what I do know and I've spent a lot of time talking to the refs, is that they don't go out there to deliberately negatively manipulate the outcome of a game and at the end of the day they're trying to manage what is a very [difficult] situation the best they can.

"Could we engage a bit more in terms on how we feel the referees are tracking? Absolutely; communication is certainly something that can be improved."

Wow.

I thought you'd made that up but he actually said that. :o

Looking at the GAGR letter, the numbers aren't actually that bad if you remove the shittiest refs...who just so happen to be Saffas.
User avatar
Average Joe
Posts: 5528
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:48 pm

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Average Joe »

I'm all for neutral refs as long as they're not Aussie or Kiwi Ref's.
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14209
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Thomas wrote:
naki wrote:Noddy, you flamin’ gallah, go back to at least a decade. This three seasons only bullshit can easily be dismissed as anomalous.

He’ll find exactly the same thing, the data is there. Hopefully he still lurks here. G’day, Noddy :nod:
He doesn't lurk here. He actively posts. ;)

When did they bring in the non-neutral refs?
:o

In 2009 I think, maybe 2010
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14209
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Thomas wrote:
naki wrote:Marinos has fired back saying the Aussies are whinging pricks while throwing Gardner under the bus for good measure.
G&G Rugby on Wednesday followed up its original research with an open letter addressed directly SANZAAR boss Andy Marinos, again calling on the chief executive to respond.

And finally he did, Marinos attributing the backlash to disenchantment from the Australian rugby community.

"It's very interesting that the whole neutrality (issue) comes up, when we've been on a meritocracy basis for the last 10 or 12 years, so I find that quite interesting at this point in time," Marinos told reporters during a bushfire fundraiser put on by the Lions in Sydney. "I think you've got to take a lens to where it's coming from.

"People are always producing statistics, but we will at the right time communicate our view on where we are from a competition perspective and the performances of our referees. I just don't understand where, all of sudden, after 10 years of meritocracy, suddenly now neutrality becomes an issue because a team, or teams, are suddenly are now feeling aggrieved by processes.

"I think what we need to do, is we need to validate those numbers, we need to put a proper picture in place, which is something we'll do and we'll be responding in due course on that."

Just when SANZAAR finalises that process remains unclear.

But Marinos called on the Australian rugby community to take a closer look at its own backyard in the meantime, alluding to some instances where the country's leading whistleblower Angus Gardner had come in for criticism in the past, most recently last year's World Cup.


"Minds are very very short in this [Australian] market where it wasn't so long ago that Angus Gardner got a bit of a public exposé in his internationals and his performance and there was a massive outcry about it; a very upset outcry, especially by Australia around 'how dare he be put up there and vilified, been made and used as a scapegoat, and his performances should be treated as confidential,'" Marinos said.

"So we've got a delicate balance here because what I do know and I've spent a lot of time talking to the refs, is that they don't go out there to deliberately negatively manipulate the outcome of a game and at the end of the day they're trying to manage what is a very [difficult] situation the best they can.

"Could we engage a bit more in terms on how we feel the referees are tracking? Absolutely; communication is certainly something that can be improved."

Wow.

I thought you'd made that up but he actually said that. :o

Looking at the GAGR letter, the numbers aren't actually that bad if you remove the shittiest refs...who just so happen to be Saffas.
The numbers are too small of a sample. The trend goes back at least a decade
User avatar
Jensrsa
Posts: 24124
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Jensrsa »

Fascinating stuff but totally meaningless
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14209
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Jensrsa wrote:Fascinating stuff but totally meaningless
Why? Because non-neutral refs are here to stay regardless of aggrieved (rightly or wrongly) reports like these?

Or because there is no legitimacy to the argument? Because, believe me, there is. And it’s been happening for far longer than the last three seasons
User avatar
handyman
Posts: 14094
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by handyman »

I'm all for neutral referees, even getting a few from the NH would be a good thing.
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14209
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

handyman wrote:I'm all for neutral referees, even getting a few from the NH would be a good thing.
Yep, it protects all referees from these kinds of grumbles. Sure, fans will find something else to whinge about, but it at least it will eliminate the worst accusations of bias
User avatar
Jensrsa
Posts: 24124
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Jensrsa »

naki wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:Fascinating stuff but totally meaningless
Why? Because non-neutral refs are here to stay regardless of aggrieved (rightly or wrongly) reports like these?

Or because there is no legitimacy to the argument? Because, believe me, there is. And it’s been happening for far longer than the last three seasons
I'm all for neutral refs, if only to stop these meaningless stats being trotted out.

The article and stats used are based on the assumption that penalty counts should be balanced no matter how undisciplined a team might be on the day, don't take into account a team's response to the ref's instructions, don't indicate the validity of the penalties or cards given (or not given) nor does it indicate penalty advantages that teams played through
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14209
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Jensrsa wrote:
naki wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:Fascinating stuff but totally meaningless
Why? Because non-neutral refs are here to stay regardless of aggrieved (rightly or wrongly) reports like these?

Or because there is no legitimacy to the argument? Because, believe me, there is. And it’s been happening for far longer than the last three seasons
I'm all for neutral refs, if only to stop these meaningless stats being trotted out.

The stats work on the assumption that penalty counts should be balanced no matter how undisciplined a team might be on the day, don't take into account a team's response to the ref's instructions, don't indicate the validity of the penalties or cards given (or not given) nor does it indicate penalty advantages that teams played through
Penalty counts ARE balanced. Neutral games, games officiated by NZ and Australian refs, games officiated by SA refs in neutral scenarios - over the last ten years when averaged out these games have been remarkably balanced in terms of penalty count.

The only scenario when this is not the case is when SA refs officiate SA teams against non-SA teams, when all of a sudden this balance tips in favour of the SA side time and time again.

You can remove (or analyse separately) the validity or otherwise of the penalties given as this is highly subjective. While it would be interesting to see this, as well as penalty advantages accrued, I’d imagine these would also balance out across multiple seasons. But the raw data shows a clear and consistent discrepancy, which SANZAAR needs to act on.
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14209
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

The other problem with SANZAARs intransigence over the neutral issue is that refs don’t operate within a vacuum. While they will no doubt strive to maintain their professional standards, there’s no way they aren’t aware of this current uproar around nationality based bias.

Could this lead to some refs trying to, consciously or otherwise, swing the other way to try to alter perceptions or at least stay under the radar? They’re only human
User avatar
Ali's Choice
Posts: 28358
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Queensland

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

What a luxury it must be for South African rugby fans, knowing that their team is virtually guaranteed of winning the penalty count handsomely whenever they play a foreign team on South African soil. They have won 30 of 31 penalty counts in such matches. What an absolute luxury! Cue Jens tearfully defending Egon Seconds's 20-1 penalty count for the Lions vs Rebels.
User avatar
Jensrsa
Posts: 24124
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Jensrsa »

naki wrote:The other problem with SANZAARs intransigence over the neutral issue is that refs don’t operate within a vacuum. While they will no doubt strive to maintain their professional standards, there’s no way they aren’t aware of this current uproar around nationality based bias.

Could this lead to some refs trying to, consciously or otherwise, swing the other way to try to alter perceptions or at least stay under the radar? They’re only human
You mean like Pickerill in the Chiefs Brumbies game pinging the Brumbies 11/2 AFTER they were leading 26-0? :)

Or like Peyper "balancing" his account in the Stormers Canes game to improve the Canes penalty stats?

Balancing out penalty counts is artificial and to the detriment of the more disciplined team
OomStruisbaai
Posts: 21868
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Struisbaai

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by OomStruisbaai »

Ali's Choice wrote:What a luxury it must be for South African rugby fans, knowing that their team is virtually guaranteed of winning the penalty count handsomely whenever they play a foreign team on South African soil. They have won 30 of 31 penalty counts in such matches. What an absolute luxury! Cue Jens tearfully defending Egon Seconds's 20-1 penalty count for the Lions vs Rebels.
You run out of excuses.
User avatar
Jensrsa
Posts: 24124
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Jensrsa »

Ali's Choice wrote:What a luxury it must be for South African rugby fans, knowing that their team is virtually guaranteed of winning the penalty count handsomely whenever they play a foreign team on South African soil. They have won 30 of 31 penalty counts in such matches. What an absolute luxury! Cue Jens tearfully defending Egon Seconds's 20-1 penalty count for the Lions vs Rebels.
You have yet to show a single wrong decision he made that day. I don't have to "defend" him or anyone else
User avatar
Ali's Choice
Posts: 28358
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Queensland

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Jensrsa wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:What a luxury it must be for South African rugby fans, knowing that their team is virtually guaranteed of winning the penalty count handsomely whenever they play a foreign team on South African soil. They have won 30 of 31 penalty counts in such matches. What an absolute luxury! Cue Jens tearfully defending Egon Seconds's 20-1 penalty count for the Lions vs Rebels.
You have yet to show a single wrong decision he made that day. I don't have to "defend" him or anyone else
Pathetic :lol:

Btw you know your own union dropped him after that shameful 20-1 performance?
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14209
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Jensrsa wrote:
naki wrote:The other problem with SANZAARs intransigence over the neutral issue is that refs don’t operate within a vacuum. While they will no doubt strive to maintain their professional standards, there’s no way they aren’t aware of this current uproar around nationality based bias.

Could this lead to some refs trying to, consciously or otherwise, swing the other way to try to alter perceptions or at least stay under the radar? They’re only human
You mean like Pickerill in the Chiefs Brumbies game pinging the Brumbies 11/2 AFTER they were leading 26-0? :)

Or like Peyper "balancing" his account in the Stormers Canes game to improve the Canes penalty stats?

Balancing out penalty counts is artificial and to the detriment of the more disciplined team
Exactly, all refs are prone to righting the ship on occasion - sometimes for no other reason than a perceived balancing of the books. It’s just SA refs don’t seem to care about balance or perception, or discipline, and are actively encouraged by SANZAAR not to.

The misapprehension here seems to be SA refs overpenalising the “undisciplined” foreigners. That’s not the case - they penalise teams at a consistent rate regardless of nationality (including SA derbies) except for these games against foreign sides when they under-penalise their own teams at a rate far lower than any other scenario in the competition.

Discipline is very consistent, except in SA when home teams magically turn into choirboys.
User avatar
Average Joe
Posts: 5528
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:48 pm

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Average Joe »

Saffa teams gets unnecessarily penalised when on tour. If these foreign refs weren't so bent the saffa teams would have the same penalty counts when playing away matches.
User avatar
Ali's Choice
Posts: 28358
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Queensland

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Average Joe wrote:Saffa teams gets unnecessarily penalised when on tour. If these foreign refs weren't so bent the saffa teams would have the same penalty counts when playing away matches.
What a dumb rationale. Your referees are cheats and have been rightfully exposed. Trying to defend the indefensible makes you look more stupid, dishonest and parochial than you already do.
User avatar
Sards
Posts: 30072
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Innie Kaap

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Sards »

Ali's Choice wrote:
Average Joe wrote:Saffa teams gets unnecessarily penalised when on tour. If these foreign refs weren't so bent the saffa teams would have the same penalty counts when playing away matches.
What a dumb rationale. Your referees are cheats and have been rightfully exposed. Trying to defend the indefensible makes you look more stupid, dishonest and parochial than you already do.

Took them long enough to catch on...
User avatar
Average Joe
Posts: 5528
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:48 pm

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Average Joe »

Ali's Choice wrote:
Average Joe wrote:Saffa teams gets unnecessarily penalised when on tour. If these foreign refs weren't so bent the saffa teams would have the same penalty counts when playing away matches.
What a dumb rationale. Your referees are cheats and have been rightfully exposed. Trying to defend the indefensible makes you look more stupid, dishonest and parochial than you already do.
"teach the Japies a lesson."
"We won't tell Freek what we have decided and make sure Oberholzer doesn't get involved."
User avatar
Ali's Choice
Posts: 28358
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Queensland

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Average Joe wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Average Joe wrote:Saffa teams gets unnecessarily penalised when on tour. If these foreign refs weren't so bent the saffa teams would have the same penalty counts when playing away matches.
What a dumb rationale. Your referees are cheats and have been rightfully exposed. Trying to defend the indefensible makes you look more stupid, dishonest and parochial than you already do.
"teach the Japies a lesson."
"We won't tell Freek what we have decided and make sure Oberholzer doesn't get involved."
I have no idea what you are referencing? Some pathetic Apartheid era conspiracy theory?
User avatar
Ali's Choice
Posts: 28358
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Queensland

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Average Joe wrote:Saffa teams gets unnecessarily penalised when on tour. If these foreign refs weren't so bent the saffa teams would have the same penalty counts when playing away matches.
So if the NZ and Aust referees are "bent" as you say they are, than surely the unprecedented discipline of the South African teams would be apparent when the Cheetahs and Kings play in the Pro 14? Are they routinely winning penalty counts 20-1 against visiting teams? Have they won 31 of 32 penalty counts when playing at home?
User avatar
Average Joe
Posts: 5528
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:48 pm

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Average Joe »

Ali's Choice wrote:
Average Joe wrote:Saffa teams gets unnecessarily penalised when on tour. If these foreign refs weren't so bent the saffa teams would have the same penalty counts when playing away matches.
So if the NZ and Aust referees are "bent" as you say they are, than surely the unprecedented discipline of the South African teams would be apparent when the Cheetahs and Kings play in the Pro 14? Are they routinely winning penalty counts 20-1 against visiting teams? Have they won 31 of 32 penalty counts when playing at home?
The refs in the Pro 14 are kak but at least they are impartially kak. The Anzac ref's have conspired against us from the beginning as the famous "lets get the japies" e-mail proved.
User avatar
Ali's Choice
Posts: 28358
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Queensland

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Average Joe wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Average Joe wrote:Saffa teams gets unnecessarily penalised when on tour. If these foreign refs weren't so bent the saffa teams would have the same penalty counts when playing away matches.
So if the NZ and Aust referees are "bent" as you say they are, than surely the unprecedented discipline of the South African teams would be apparent when the Cheetahs and Kings play in the Pro 14? Are they routinely winning penalty counts 20-1 against visiting teams? Have they won 31 of 32 penalty counts when playing at home?
The refs in the Pro 14 are kak but at least they are impartially kak. The Anzac ref's have conspired against us from the beginning as the famous "lets get the japies" e-mail proved.
Whatever you need to justify your cheating mate :thumbup:

Btw, does anyone else remember when the Saffers blamed the travel? That was in the early days of Super Rugby. The excuses were always about the travel. Now it seems it's about the cheating Aust/NZ referees.
User avatar
Average Joe
Posts: 5528
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:48 pm

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Average Joe »

Ali's Choice wrote:
Average Joe wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Average Joe wrote:Saffa teams gets unnecessarily penalised when on tour. If these foreign refs weren't so bent the saffa teams would have the same penalty counts when playing away matches.
So if the NZ and Aust referees are "bent" as you say they are, than surely the unprecedented discipline of the South African teams would be apparent when the Cheetahs and Kings play in the Pro 14? Are they routinely winning penalty counts 20-1 against visiting teams? Have they won 31 of 32 penalty counts when playing at home?
The refs in the Pro 14 are kak but at least they are impartially kak. The Anzac ref's have conspired against us from the beginning as the famous "lets get the japies" e-mail proved.
Whatever you need to justify your cheating mate :thumbup:

Btw, does anyone else remember when the Saffers blamed the travel? That was in the early days of Super Rugby. The excuses were always about the travel. Now it seems it's about the cheating Aust/NZ referees.
You're the one who started bleating on about bent ref's dickhead.
User avatar
Ali's Choice
Posts: 28358
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Queensland

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Average Joe wrote: You're the one who started bleating on about bent ref's dickhead.
For good reason, your referees don't even pretend to be impartial anymore. They are shamelessly one-sided in their officiating.

Tell you what, you find me another 20-1 penalty count between two professional Rugby teams and I will stop this thread immediately. But if you can't and don't, I will continue to troll the cheating, dishonest Saffer cheating referees till the end of my days.
User avatar
Lemoentjie
Posts: 2911
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:42 pm

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Lemoentjie »

Slim 293 wrote:
Mr Andy Marinos
Chief Executive Office
SANZAAR

Dear Andy:

I write to you on behalf of the readers of the biggest supporter driven web site in Australian Rugby – Green and Gold Rugby (http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com) as well as, it would seem from recent social media activity, many rugby fans across the southern hemisphere.

blah blah blah
Nerds
User avatar
Average Joe
Posts: 5528
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:48 pm

Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Average Joe »

Strange how our "cheating ref's" could not get us to win a cup in the past 10 years. You would think that if we were such big "cheats" we would have won at least a few by now.
Post Reply