Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African referees?

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Jay Cee Gee
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Jensrsa wrote:
brat wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:
brat wrote:Taking the penalty count out of the equation that foward pass leading to the lions try was one of the worst foward passes missed I’ve ever seen -crazy that it wasn’t picked up
Forward velocity with the passer stopped in a tackle as he passes always looks like a forward pass. Was a good decision by Seconds but he should have sent it to the TMO.
His hands in the release were towards the goal line -clear foward pass
Not really

Image

I don't have access to close-up shots of the sequence. But should have gone to the TMO
His arms are on an angle towards the opposition goal line in that photo. If that's the direction of his release, it's miles forward.
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Sandstorm
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Sandstorm »

True Blue wrote:Saffas circling the wagons trying to pretend a 20-1 penalty count is normal. :lol:
It’s not normal. But it’s not impossible or automatically incorrect either. :P
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Fat Old Git
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Fat Old Git »

Sandstorm wrote:
True Blue wrote:Saffas circling the wagons trying to pretend a 20-1 penalty count is normal. :lol:
It’s not normal. But it’s not impossible or automatically incorrect either. :P
Agreed, but naki posted some stats that are hard to argue against on page 1.
naki wrote: Teams are penalised at a remarkably similar rate across all of SR whether a ref is neutral, a NZ ref officiating all other teams including “thier” own, an Australian ref officiating all other teams including “their” own, or a SA ref officiating all other teams. The only outlier, year after year, is when a South African referree officiates a game involving a South African team and a “foreign” team - particularly when the game is held in RSA. In this situation the SA is statistically far more likely to receive less penalties than the opposition. It is known.
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Sandstorm
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Sandstorm »

Fat Old Git wrote:
Sandstorm wrote:
True Blue wrote:Saffas circling the wagons trying to pretend a 20-1 penalty count is normal. :lol:
It’s not normal. But it’s not impossible or automatically incorrect either. :P
Agreed, but naki posted some stats that are hard to argue against on page 1.
naki wrote: Teams are penalised at a remarkably similar rate across all of SR whether a ref is neutral, a NZ ref officiating all other teams including “thier” own, an Australian ref officiating all other teams including “their” own, or a SA ref officiating all other teams. The only outlier, year after year, is when a South African referree officiates a game involving a South African team and a “foreign” team - particularly when the game is held in RSA. In this situation the SA is statistically far more likely to receive less penalties than the opposition. It is known.
That’s an opinion piece, not stats.
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naki
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Sandstorm wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
Sandstorm wrote:
True Blue wrote:Saffas circling the wagons trying to pretend a 20-1 penalty count is normal. :lol:
It’s not normal. But it’s not impossible or automatically incorrect either. :P
Agreed, but naki posted some stats that are hard to argue against on page 1.
naki wrote: Teams are penalised at a remarkably similar rate across all of SR whether a ref is neutral, a NZ ref officiating all other teams including “thier” own, an Australian ref officiating all other teams including “their” own, or a SA ref officiating all other teams. The only outlier, year after year, is when a South African referree officiates a game involving a South African team and a “foreign” team - particularly when the game is held in RSA. In this situation the SA is statistically far more likely to receive less penalties than the opposition. It is known.
That’s an opinion piece, not stats.
Even better, it’s a factual opinion piece. The best kind

But I’ll see if I can track down my stats from the last time we did this. It was illuminating
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Margin_Walker
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Margin_Walker »

Lions have gone 1/20 and 2/11 with Seconds in charge for their home games this season. (Russ Petty on Twitter)

Image
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True Blue
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by True Blue »

If I was the Aussies I'd be asking for a "please explain". 3-31 is ridiculous.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

True Blue wrote:If I was the Aussies I'd be asking for a "please explain". 3-31 is ridiculous.
I recall a few years ago there was that graph on Green & Gold Rugby about the yellow card to penalty ratio of the All Blacks as compared to the Boks & Wallabies. That got quoted by Bob Dwyer and a fair few other actual rugby personalities, but funnily enough when the stats were almost reversed the following year no one mentioned it.
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naki
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

True Blue wrote:If I was the Aussies I'd be asking for a "please explain". 3-31 is ridiculous.
Again, you can’t generalise from just two games (as eye-brow raising as those penalty counts are).

You can generalise from THIS though - the patterns were the same for 2018 also from memory and continue to be so this season

http://forum.planetrugby.com/viewtopic. ... convenient
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True Blue
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by True Blue »

naki wrote:
True Blue wrote:If I was the Aussies I'd be asking for a "please explain". 3-31 is ridiculous.
Again, you can’t generalise from just two games (as eye-brow raising as those penalty counts are).

You can generalise from THIS though - the patterns were the same for 2018 also from memory and continue to be so this season

http://forum.planetrugby.com/viewtopic. ... convenient
Damning statistics. Tidy it up and send it to the media, they love this stuff. They'll even steal it and credit themselves. Nothing to lose really.
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mightyreds
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by mightyreds »

naki wrote:From 20-1 to 11-2?

At least Egon is trying to be a little more subtle now
Yes, he left his big run until the last 20 minutes, awarding 6-0 in penalties to the Lions during that time, strangely enough just enough to get them home. I have seen some good displays by SA refs this year, but this guy definitely is studying video footage from the 1990s as an inspiration. Stood down (to Assistant Referee) for a few weeks after the Lions fiasco, he seems to have vowed to come back stronger than ever. Hopefully the Tahs will ask SANZAAR to review his performance (as the Rebels did) and he will get stood down until the end of the comp so he can't screw up any more games.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Thomas »

I don't think he's biased towards South African teams. I just think he picks what team he's going to penalise and sticks with it for the duration of the match. Also, he's a shit ref.

He made some blindingly stupid calls in the Reds - Sunwolves match last year which also included a 5 minute break in play as he tried, in vain, to communicate with the Japanese TMO.

If he reffed a South Island derby or a match between two Australia teams, we'd probably see the same result. Maybe.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Anonymous 1 »

I hardly watch any super rugby now but if we can get back some of the saffa TMO home team calls it will spice up the comp a bit.
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Peteray
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Peteray »

Jensrsa wrote:
brat wrote:Taking the penalty count out of the equation that foward pass leading to the lions try was one of the worst foward passes missed I’ve ever seen -crazy that it wasn’t picked up
Forward velocity with the passer stopped in a tackle as he passes always looks like a forward pass. Was a good decision by Seconds but he should have sent it to the TMO.

https://youtu.be/box08lq9ylg
Jens, for 8 years I've always appreciated your passionate advocacy of the SA rugby scene, but surely now, in terms of both the forward pass that undoubtedly was, and Second's inability to referee both teams equally, you are only doing so as a devil's advocate? Otherwise mate, you've lost the plot!
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Thomas
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Thomas »

Peteray wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:
brat wrote:Taking the penalty count out of the equation that foward pass leading to the lions try was one of the worst foward passes missed I’ve ever seen -crazy that it wasn’t picked up
Forward velocity with the passer stopped in a tackle as he passes always looks like a forward pass. Was a good decision by Seconds but he should have sent it to the TMO.

https://youtu.be/box08lq9ylg
Jens, for 8 years I've always appreciated your passionate advocacy of the SA rugby scene, but surely now, in terms of both the forward pass that undoubtedly was, and Second's inability to referee both teams equally, you are only doing so as a devil's advocate? Otherwise mate, you've lost the plot!
I have no dog in this fight. I don't care for Saffa rugby and I like watching the Waratahs lose but that pass was so forward it wasn't funny.
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koroke hangareka
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by koroke hangareka »

Jens is just having fun.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by assfly »

I didn't see the full Tahs game, but hardly surprising.

Egon Seconds has been widely ridiculed for his poor officiating this season by all Saffer posters. I think we can more or less agree he's a terrible ref, without resorting to conspiracy theories.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Thomas »

assfly wrote:I didn't see the full Tahs game, but hardly surprising.

Egon Seconds has been widely ridiculed for his poor officiating this season by all Saffer posters. I think we can more or less agree he's a terrible ref, without resorting to conspiracy theories.
Agree. He's a terrible ref. Has no understanding at all.

In saying that, I'd love to see some stats from the games he has reffed where there have been no Saffa teams playing. You know, just to...make sure.
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749a
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by 749a »

Mark Pottie on Twitter has done the work

https://twitter.com/MarkPottie/status/1 ... 5965568000

Numbers crunched within the tweet (but I c an't work out how to post it......)
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by guy smiley »

749a wrote:Mark Pottie on Twitter has done the work

https://twitter.com/MarkPottie/status/1 ... 5965568000

Numbers crunched within the tweet (but I c an't work out how to post it......)
*right click* copy image location
Image
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Thomas
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Thomas »

Am I reading that right? 2012-2019 - yellow cards? Saffa refs reffing a Saffa and a non-Saffa team have handed out nearly 3 times the number of yellow cards to non-saffa teams as opposed to saffa teams.

Plus, the ratio of penalties is shocking. Berry and Seconds would account for most of those.
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Chilli
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Chilli »

Look folks, SA teams in Super rugby has been so crap over the last few years that we need all the help that we can get. If it means the odd bent ref, then so be it.

If you see the number of posts it is generating then you will agree that it is growing an interest in rugby.

You should thank us for Egon etc.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Jensrsa »

Thomas wrote:Am I reading that right? 2012-2019 - yellow cards? Saffa refs reffing a Saffa and a non-Saffa team have handed out nearly 3 times the number of yellow cards to non-saffa teams as opposed to saffa teams.

Plus, the ratio of penalties is shocking. Berry and Seconds would account for most of those.
What must the Saffer refs do when the Kiwi and Aussie teams continue to cheat? :) All this proves is that the Kiwi and Aussie refs are too lenient when their teams cheat
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Chilli
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Chilli »

Jensrsa wrote:
Thomas wrote:Am I reading that right? 2012-2019 - yellow cards? Saffa refs reffing a Saffa and a non-Saffa team have handed out nearly 3 times the number of yellow cards to non-saffa teams as opposed to saffa teams.

Plus, the ratio of penalties is shocking. Berry and Seconds would account for most of those.
What must the Saffer refs do when the Kiwi and Aussie teams continue to cheat? :) All this proves is that the Kiwi and Aussie refs are too lenient when their teams cheat
:thumbup:
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by guy smiley »

Chilli wrote:Look folks, SA teams in Super rugby has been so crap over the last few years that we need all the help that we can get. If it means the odd bent ref, then so be it.

If you see the number of posts it is generating then you will agree that it is growing an interest in rugby.

You should thank us for Egon etc.
:lol: :lol: :thumbup:
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Tehui »

Chilli wrote:Look folks, SA teams in Super rugby has been so crap over the last few years that we need all the help that we can get. If it means the odd bent ref, then so be it.

If you see the number of posts it is generating then you will agree that it is growing an interest in rugby.

You should thank us for Egon etc.
I have the same attitude towards getting laid. I will happily take any sympathy sex to overcompensate for my lack of good looks.
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Chilli
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Chilli »

Tehui wrote:
Chilli wrote:Look folks, SA teams in Super rugby has been so crap over the last few years that we need all the help that we can get. If it means the odd bent ref, then so be it.

If you see the number of posts it is generating then you will agree that it is growing an interest in rugby.

You should thank us for Egon etc.
I have the same attitude towards getting laid. I will happily take any sympathy sex to overcompensate for my lack of good looks.
Welcome Brother! :thumbup:
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naki
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Chilli wrote:Look folks, SA teams in Super rugby has been so crap over the last few years that we need all the help that we can get. If it means the odd bent ref, then so be it.

If you see the number of posts it is generating then you will agree that it is growing an interest in rugby.

You should thank us for Egon etc.
Admirable honesty in the face of such overwhelming evidence :thumbup:

Need to see more detail from that twitter statistician though. His ratios imply an even more horrific scenario than mine.
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Jensrsa
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Jensrsa »

TBH, where SA at one point had some of the best refs around we are scraping the bottom now and even in derby matches one cringes in anticipation of the calls that would be made.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Lemoentjie »

naki wrote:
Lemoentjie wrote:It's a good job that death threats have never been sent to a referee following an NZ RWC quarter-final lost, because then the Kiwi criticism could be seen as being slightly hypocritical :thumbup:
Death threats on social media barely count. We all probably have death threats sitting in our DM's right now.

But Barnes could comfortably return to NZ and ref here later with no fear of consequence. Bryce Lawrence was advised to never visit the Republic again and was drummed out of the game (and if anything he favoured the Boks in that QF, with their porpoise-like approach to the breakdown).

This isn't about criticism of officials. Everyone from everywhere indulges in that from time to time. This is about the clear anomaly of SA refs officiating SA teams.
:lol:

And come on, you can't genuinely believe that Bryce Lawrence wouldn't be able to travel safely in SA
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Chilli
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Chilli »

Jensrsa wrote:TBH, where SA at one point had some of the best refs around we are scraping the bottom now and even in derby matches one cringes in anticipation of the calls that would be made.
This.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Insane_Homer »

jdogscoop wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:Rebs and Saders, the two most penalised sides in SR (#2 in penalties conceded and #2 and #4 in yellow cards), complain that they are penalised :lol:

The Saders captain and assistant coach even went so far as to complain that the Lions and Bulls milk penalties by not scrumming the same way every time
Stop deluding yourself. A penalty count of 20-1 is absurd. So is 12-3 against a dominant side.

A few of your referees are crooked. Accept it.
Swings and round abouts.
Keith Lawrence, Bryce, Paul Honiss and Steve Walsh spring to mind.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Lemoentjie wrote: :lol:

And come on, you can't genuinely believe that Bryce Lawrence wouldn't be able to travel safely in SA
That was the advice from the police and his employer. He recieved hundreds of death threats from angry South African Rugby fans.His wife and children also recieved death threats. He was forced to quit his job and his passion, which was refereeing. It seems that South Africans celebrate their own dishonest referees when they deliver 20-1 penalty counts, but then threaten to kill any referee who officiates a result they don't like. Hypocrites and aresholes.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Insane_Homer wrote:
jdogscoop wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:Rebs and Saders, the two most penalised sides in SR (#2 in penalties conceded and #2 and #4 in yellow cards), complain that they are penalised :lol:

The Saders captain and assistant coach even went so far as to complain that the Lions and Bulls milk penalties by not scrumming the same way every time
Stop deluding yourself. A penalty count of 20-1 is absurd. So is 12-3 against a dominant side.

A few of your referees are crooked. Accept it.
Swings and round abouts.
Keith Lawrence, Bryce, Paul Honiss and Steve Walsh spring to mind.
And yet none of them ever delivered a 20-1 penalty count to gift one of their teams an undeserved win.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by sorCrer »

Jensrsa wrote:TBH, where SA at one point had some of the best refs around we are scraping the bottom now and even in derby matches one cringes in anticipation of the calls that would be made.
The fear the Bulls had when we were playing the Stormers at home and thought we were going to get Seconds reffing. :((
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Insane_Homer »

Ali's Choice wrote:
Insane_Homer wrote:
jdogscoop wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:Rebs and Saders, the two most penalised sides in SR (#2 in penalties conceded and #2 and #4 in yellow cards), complain that they are penalised :lol:

The Saders captain and assistant coach even went so far as to complain that the Lions and Bulls milk penalties by not scrumming the same way every time
Stop deluding yourself. A penalty count of 20-1 is absurd. So is 12-3 against a dominant side.

A few of your referees are crooked. Accept it.
Swings and round abouts.
Keith Lawrence, Bryce, Paul Honiss and Steve Walsh spring to mind.
And yet none of them ever delivered a 20-1 penalty count to gift one of their teams an undeserved win.
Granted, they were at times a bit more subtle, although actually advocating it in an email was particularly blatant.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Another disgusting day of crooked officiating where South African match officials favour South African Super Rugby teams. What a farce. Do you they now how stupid this makes them look?
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Sandstorm »

Ali's Choice wrote:Another disgusting day of crooked officiating where South African match officials favour South African Super Rugby teams. What a farce. Do you they now how stupid this makes them look?
No. But thank the Lord you are here to help us spot crap refs. Much appreciated :thumbup:
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Rinkals »

Margin_Walker wrote:Lions have gone 1/20 and 2/11 with Seconds in charge for their home games this season. (Russ Petty on Twitter)

Image
Seconds was a Stormers player and the Lions were done in by a series of highly questionable decisions when they played them previously this season.

I have to say that the intervention of the South African TMO to intercede on behalf of the Stormers to deny the Crusaders in tonight's game of a legitimate and exceptionally well worked try on the most spurious basis is absolutely shameful, but fully to be expected when the Stormers are playing.

It helps nobody.

It may propel the Stormers to the top of the table, but granting them superiority on a sloping playing field means that they are probably not prepared when the field is level. The bulk of the Springboks play for the Stormers (and the Bulls) and this sort of favouritism means that this is a skewed benchmark when it comes to selecting the national side.

Additionally, it allows refs from other nations some justification for their own home town decisions.
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