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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:25 pm 
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World Rugby says it is considering "rugby-specific" eligibility rules for transgender players, differing from the International Olympic Committee policy.

Players transitioning from men to women are currently required to suppress their testosterone levels, in line with IOC limits, to play in women's games.

But critics say unfair imbalances of strength and power remain.

World Rugby wants to explore a "rugby-specific framework, prioritising welfare, inclusion and fairness".

The statement follows a two-day workshop in London which brought together experts in performance, science, medicine, risk, law and ethics, former and current players and rugby officials to discuss the matter.


Seems sensible.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:30 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:42 pm 
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World Rugby wants to explore a "rugby-specific framework, prioritising welfare, inclusion and fairness"


Those are mutually conflicting aims - you get to pick one. You either have the 6"4, 115kg person - who was male up until the age of 26, playing in the womens division or not.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:04 pm 
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J Man wrote:
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World Rugby wants to explore a "rugby-specific framework, prioritising welfare, inclusion and fairness"


Those are mutually conflicting aims - you get to pick one. You either have the 6"4, 115kg person - who was male up until the age of 26, playing in the womens division or not.


Sure. What about the 5'8 70kg person who is in the same category?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:16 pm 
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I really hope they do something crazy and go with biological gender at birth.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:19 pm 
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There is a video on BBC profiling a Welsh male to female rugby player. Of course the team mates are chuffed to have them in the team. But watching, I'd be livid if someone like that did a crash ball say into my partner. Somebody will get hurt. I think at professional level if I ran as hard as possible into the England defence I'd swiftly be taken out but at amateurs, running into some lass who probably didn't play as a kid, not built for rugby it could be pretty dangerous.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:31 pm 
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The Black Ferns really need to ask themselves about how seriously they want to win next years WC.

Spoiler: show
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:35 pm 
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Zakar wrote:
J Man wrote:
Quote:
World Rugby wants to explore a "rugby-specific framework, prioritising welfare, inclusion and fairness"


Those are mutually conflicting aims - you get to pick one. You either have the 6"4, 115kg person - who was male up until the age of 26, playing in the womens division or not.


Sure. What about the 5'8 70kg person who is in the same category?


They'd probably be okay (but on average faster, stronger and better at rugby) but the main difficulty is that it's all or nothing. If allowed you couldn't exclude those big 6'4+ beasts.

I sure as shit wouldn't let my daughters play with former males.

So it's a problem for WR if they're trying to grow the women's game. Fair play to them doing it properly, with full consultation


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:46 pm 
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This whole thing is just nonsense. I get inclusivity and all that, but trying to appease the few at the expense of the many just to be politically correct is ridiculous. It just is, regardless of any counter argument. Whatever the result, it’s going to be unfair on someone. Wait long enough and you’ll have a team of 15 former blokes winning the women’s World Cup.
Don’t see anyone getting in a sweat about women who have transitioned into men and think it’s unfair that they aren’t robust enough to compete against their new teammates.
Men’s comp, women’s comp, transgender comp. Done.

And while we’re at it, please can we have an alternate athletics comp where drugs are fine and everyone can take whatever the fûck they want and see how fast they can really go. I’d watch that.


Last edited by Punter15 on Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:47 pm 
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Very very tough issue, but I like that they're trying to get ahead of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:52 pm 
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Achtung Unseenwork! Do you still play? Would you play for a women's team?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:56 pm 
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This...uh...well...uh...sh...e....is clogging up my Twatter feed today. Apparently dominating the female weightlifting World. Already regarded as one of New Zealand's sexiest women!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:09 pm 
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Derwyn wrote:
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This...uh...well...uh...sh...e....is clogging up my Twatter feed today. Apparently dominating the female weightlifting World. Already regarded as one of New Zealand's sexiest women!


Not dominating, won some medals at the pacific games though . Had to pull out of the women’s weightlifting at the Commenwealth games due to an njury, it was a twisted testicle from memory.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:14 pm 
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le chat wrote:
There is a video on BBC profiling a Welsh male to female rugby player. Of course the team mates are chuffed to have them in the team. But watching, I'd be livid if someone like that did a crash ball say into my partner. Somebody will get hurt. I think at professional level if I ran as hard as possible into the England defence I'd swiftly be taken out but at amateurs, running into some lass who probably didn't play as a kid, not built for rugby it could be pretty dangerous.


I seem to recall that article removed references to her flattening other players after people pointed it out.

Just did a quick google, it's referenced here:

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/briti ... ing-women/


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:17 pm 
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Zakar wrote:
J Man wrote:
Quote:
World Rugby wants to explore a "rugby-specific framework, prioritising welfare, inclusion and fairness"


Those are mutually conflicting aims - you get to pick one. You either have the 6"4, 115kg person - who was male up until the age of 26, playing in the womens division or not.


Sure. What about the 5'8 70kg person who is in the same category?


They need to bulk up FFS!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:20 pm 
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Punter15 wrote:
This whole thing is just nonsense. I get inclusivity and all that, but trying to appease the few at the expense of the many just to be politically correct is ridiculous. It just is, regardless of any counter argument. Whatever the result, it’s going to be unfair on someone. Wait long enough and you’ll have a team of 15 former blokes winning the women’s World Cup.
Don’t see anyone getting in a sweat about women who have transitioned into men and think it’s unfair that they aren’t robust enough to compete against their new teammates.
Men’s comp, women’s comp, transgender comp. Done.

And while we’re at it, please can we have an alternate athletics comp where drugs are fine and everyone can take whatever the fûck they want and see how fast they can really go. I’d watch that.



You just need an Open comp, and a female from birth comp.

Male, female, and other should be able to play in an open league. R.G. Snyman, Faf de Klerk, and Ruby Tui if they want to.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:26 pm 
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le chat wrote:
There is a video on BBC profiling a Welsh male to female rugby player. Of course the team mates are chuffed to have them in the team. But watching, I'd be livid if someone like that did a crash ball say into my partner. Somebody will get hurt. I think at professional level if I ran as hard as possible into the England defence I'd swiftly be taken out but at amateurs, running into some lass who probably didn't play as a kid, not built for rugby it could be pretty dangerous.


Hannah Mouncey played Women’s AFL in 2017 when she was transitioning. She’s 6’2” and apparently broke another player’s leg during one game.

She previously represented Australia in Handball as a man, but more recently has played on the Australian women’s team:

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:47 pm 
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I watched some of her highlights on youtube and uhhh....let's just say this sort of thing is complicated.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:17 pm 
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Ross Tucker, who is involved, on the whole process:

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/stat ... 9085382656

Quote:


Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
·
9h
(8/) We had legal experts, barristers, who shared insights on human rights issues, gender identity, liability in the event of injury and possible claims about fairness & safety. We had advocacy groups representing both sides. We had sport ethics. This is the “witness group"
Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
·
9h
(9/) The purpose of this was to facilitate debate & ‘cross-pollination’ of ideas. We wanted to explore differences in ideas, so we invited people who had divergent views on biology, law, rights, ethics. Goal was to find the areas of agreement and dispute. There’s value in both
Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
·
9h
(10/) We wanted to know, for instance, what a barrister advises when confronted with injury & biological data on M vs F strength differences. We wanted to find out how ethics assesses arguments for inclusion and exclusion. How science assesses claims of unfair discrimination.
Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
·
9h
(11/) We also didn’t want to shy away from difficult issues. This is an incredibly emotive subject, and Dr Chintoh handled this amazingly. But we wanted to put it all out in the open, discuss it, juxtapose conflicting views & evidence to allow the policy group to see it all
Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
·
8h
(12/) This way, we could assess the merits of every argument in those four domains - science, medicine, law/risk, social factors. That would hopefully make for a complete and informed final recommendation.
Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
·
8h
(13/) With that in mind, this it the programme/agenda that was followed over the two days. Everything from biology to insurance risk assessors, and discussion on every issue. Plus social factors - we are all more similar than different!
Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
·
8h
(14/) The third group was a group of observers, who included diversity officers from Sport England, and International Gay Rugby, who also contributed to discussion and allowed us to hear from trans players.
Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
·
8h
(15/) We are also committed to total transparency. And so every speaker consented to being filmed, and provided their presentations, so that we will be able to put this online, in full, allowing the whole world to see and hear the arguments and positions we did.
Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
·
8h
(16/) Which brings me onto what happens next. So much ground was covered, some new, some not, but it has given the policy-group a lot to get through. Further consulting may be needed on specific nuanced matters, and once that is done, a recommendation will be made to guide policy
Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
·
8h
(17/) That may take some time (unknown), and then begin internal discussions (WR has member unions, whose views must be considered also), so can’t say for sure when a decision will be reached. Here is the press release from the event:
Landmark World Rugby transgender workshop important step towards appropriate rugby-specific policy
Click here to see a web...
worldrugbycommunications.activehosted.com
Ross Tucker
@Scienceofsport
·
8h
(18/18) But at some point, the presentations & discussions from this meeting will be made available to all, and then hopefully in conjunction, the sport can release a policy that does the right things, also explaining the “why” and “how”. That’s all for now, thanks!



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:20 pm 
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Lobby wrote:
le chat wrote:
There is a video on BBC profiling a Welsh male to female rugby player. Of course the team mates are chuffed to have them in the team. But watching, I'd be livid if someone like that did a crash ball say into my partner. Somebody will get hurt. I think at professional level if I ran as hard as possible into the England defence I'd swiftly be taken out but at amateurs, running into some lass who probably didn't play as a kid, not built for rugby it could be pretty dangerous.


Hannah Mouncey played Women’s AFL in 2017 when she was transitioning. She’s 6’2” and apparently broke another player’s leg during one game.

She previously represented Australia in Handball as a man, but more recently has played on the Australian women’s team:

Image


:lol:

Absolutely dominating her opponents.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:39 pm 
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If there’s a scientific line to be drawn, where the individual is a woman, is it much different than this?

https://www.zimbio.com/Aldora+Itunu+Kay ... ctures/pro

This player used to be a man...

Spoiler: show
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... friends who’ve played against (one of whom is bigger, though not more muscular), are torn between truly believing the game is for all, but also have some reservations about the ‘fairness’ of someone so muscular.

It’s quite the debate, so hopefully WR figures out a good line to draw (especially as it is commendable for having positions for all body types)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:43 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:

... friends who’ve played against (one of whom is bigger, though not more muscular), are torn between truly believing the game is for all, but also have some reservations about the ‘fairness’ of someone so muscular.

It’s quite the debate, so hopefully WR figures out a good line to draw (especially as it is commendable for having positions for all body types)


The game is for all though. It's the category you want to play in that is the difficult issue here.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:49 pm 
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Lobby wrote:
le chat wrote:
There is a video on BBC profiling a Welsh male to female rugby player. Of course the team mates are chuffed to have them in the team. But watching, I'd be livid if someone like that did a crash ball say into my partner. Somebody will get hurt. I think at professional level if I ran as hard as possible into the England defence I'd swiftly be taken out but at amateurs, running into some lass who probably didn't play as a kid, not built for rugby it could be pretty dangerous.


Hannah Mouncey played Women’s AFL in 2017 when she was transitioning. She’s 6’2” and apparently broke another player’s leg during one game.

She previously represented Australia in Handball as a man, but more recently has played on the Australian women’s team:

Image

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:52 pm 
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I wonder how many of the trans women would be okay with playing with men? The highlighted ones are all bigger than half the backs I coached in a men’s reserve team a few years ago.

I know of two smaller ones who are no threat at women’s level... many don’t even know.

Can it go case by case? What factors need to be considered?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:01 am 
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truthfully rugby is one game we don't need trannies in.. sorry but thats a fact, when it comes to women rugby, we already have 'butch' women who are BORN women, will be an issue in every other sport but not rugby...if you are a dude transitioning into woman and want to play rugby, fuckk off to footlball..


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:10 am 
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comets wrote:
truthfully rugby is one game we don't need trannies in.. sorry but thats a fact, when it comes to women rugby, we already have 'butch' women who are BORN women, will be an issue in every other sport but not rugby...if you are a dude transitioning into woman and want to play rugby, fuckk off to footlball..


Wow! You managed to find the one spot in this debate that offends all sides.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:14 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
comets wrote:
truthfully rugby is one game we don't need trannies in.. sorry but thats a fact, when it comes to women rugby, we already have 'butch' women who are BORN women, will be an issue in every other sport but not rugby...if you are a dude transitioning into woman and want to play rugby, fuckk off to footlball..


Wow! You managed to find the one spot in this debate that offends all sides.


The fact that he didn't suggest they should be considered based on a "Rapeability Index" shows he has actually made some progress since his previous views on netballers were aired...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:23 am 
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watch the PNG women 7's side fora while, there are more men in that team than in all other woman's team combined :P it was always hilarious to hear the commentators talk about players during pacific games or oceania championship and really have nothing to say cause nothing is known of where they are from..


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:13 am 
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This is crazy.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:29 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
le chat wrote:
There is a video on BBC profiling a Welsh male to female rugby player. Of course the team mates are chuffed to have them in the team. But watching, I'd be livid if someone like that did a crash ball say into my partner. Somebody will get hurt. I think at professional level if I ran as hard as possible into the England defence I'd swiftly be taken out but at amateurs, running into some lass who probably didn't play as a kid, not built for rugby it could be pretty dangerous.


I seem to recall that article removed references to her flattening other players after people pointed it out.

Just did a quick google, it's referenced here:

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/briti ... ing-women/


You mean the BBC article hyperlinked in the postmillennial article that still includes the reference to her folding an opponent like a deckchair?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:31 am 
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4071 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
le chat wrote:
There is a video on BBC profiling a Welsh male to female rugby player. Of course the team mates are chuffed to have them in the team. But watching, I'd be livid if someone like that did a crash ball say into my partner. Somebody will get hurt. I think at professional level if I ran as hard as possible into the England defence I'd swiftly be taken out but at amateurs, running into some lass who probably didn't play as a kid, not built for rugby it could be pretty dangerous.


I seem to recall that article removed references to her flattening other players after people pointed it out.

Just did a quick google, it's referenced here:

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/briti ... ing-women/


You mean the BBC article hyperlinked in the postmillennial article that still includes the reference to her folding an opponent like a deckchair?


That's the one. Did they place it back in?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:42 am 
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To me it is fairly simple.

I am a simple person

If a dude has gender dysphoria and thinks they should be a chick, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

If they want to alter themselves to appear as a chick because of this, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

As long as they aren't an arsehole I will even refer to them as she and her, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

If they want to compete against actual women, sorry, no.

Everyone makes sacrifices and theirs is giving up competing in women's sport.

But fine if they want to portray themselves as chicks yet still compete with fellow dudes


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:59 am 
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Dark wrote:
To me it is fairly simple.

I am a simple person

If a dude has gender dysphoria and thinks they should be a chick, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

If they want to alter themselves to appear as a chick because of this, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

As long as they aren't an arsehole I will even refer to them as she and her, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

If they want to compete against actual women, sorry, no.

Everyone makes sacrifices and theirs is giving up competing in women's sport.

But fine if they want to portray themselves as chicks yet still compete with fellow dudes


+1


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:01 am 
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Crash_12 wrote:
I really hope they do something crazy and go with biological gender at birth.

:lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:02 am 
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Nieghorn wrote:
I wonder how many of the trans women would be okay with playing with men? The highlighted ones are all bigger than half the backs I coached in a men’s reserve team a few years ago.

I know of two smaller ones who are no threat at women’s level... many don’t even know.

Can it go case by case? What factors need to be considered?


The AFL player I mentioned previously, Hannah Mouncey, withdrew from AFL because she couldn't meet their revised gender diversity policies introduced in late 2018. These require trans and non-binary players to maintain testosterone at or below 5 nmol/Lfor at least 2 years before beginning to play, and to provide data on their height, weight, bench press, 20m sprint, vertical jump, GPS data and 2km run. This is intended to ensure that trans and non-binary players don't have an unreasonable competitive advantage, and to ensure the safety of other players, given the physical nature of AFL.

This sort of procedure allows decisions to made on a case by case basis and would mean that only those with an unreasonable physical (height, weight and strength) advantage would be precluded from playing for women's teams.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:09 am 
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towny wrote:
Dark wrote:
To me it is fairly simple.

I am a simple person

If a dude has gender dysphoria and thinks they should be a chick, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

If they want to alter themselves to appear as a chick because of this, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

As long as they aren't an arsehole I will even refer to them as she and her, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

If they want to compete against actual women, sorry, no.

Everyone makes sacrifices and theirs is giving up competing in women's sport.

But fine if they want to portray themselves as chicks yet still compete with fellow dudes


+1

+ 1


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:18 am 
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Lobby wrote:
Nieghorn wrote:
I wonder how many of the trans women would be okay with playing with men? The highlighted ones are all bigger than half the backs I coached in a men’s reserve team a few years ago.

I know of two smaller ones who are no threat at women’s level... many don’t even know.

Can it go case by case? What factors need to be considered?


The AFL player I mentioned previously, Hannah Mouncey, withdrew from AFL because she couldn't meet their revised gender diversity policies introduced in late 2018. These require trans and non-binary players to maintain testosterone at or below 5 nmol/Lfor at least 2 years before beginning to play, and to provide data on their height, weight, bench press, 20m sprint, vertical jump, GPS data and 2km run. This is intended to ensure that trans and non-binary players don't have an unreasonable competitive advantage, and to ensure the safety of other players, given the physical nature of AFL.

This sort of procedure allows decisions to made on a case by case basis and would mean that only those with an unreasonable physical (height, weight and strength) advantage would be precluded from playing for women's teams.


So, trans women can play as long as they aren’t strong and fast? How much energy is being invested in this absurd strategy? Why do these former men want to play against women? It’s not fair because women and men are not physically equal. Creating an arbitrary baseline for what a women ‘should be’ is a lame attempt to quantify the physical inequality but does nothing to address the other advantages such as life-long learned skills and aggression. No one is stopping trans women playing sport - they are free to compete against the same group they’ve spent their life competing against. They don’t get another shot in easier company. It’s the most unfair thing I can think of and I find it extremely selfish.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:43 am 
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Since you can't just draw an arbitrary line and say 'only men who became women but weigh less than 75kg can play', the answer has to be they shouldn't compete with women at all. Just give them their own category, or they can play in the men's section.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:55 am 
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My view is also simple.

Men play against men, women against women, transgender men against transgender men, transgender women against transgender women.

Find a team that meets those categories and play for them.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:10 am 
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Dark wrote:
To me it is fairly simple.

I am a simple person

If a dude has gender dysphoria and thinks they should be a chick, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

If they want to alter themselves to appear as a chick because of this, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

As long as they aren't an arsehole I will even refer to them as she and her, she is no skin off my nose. All good if it helps them mentally handle their life

If they want to compete against actual women, sorry, no.

Everyone makes sacrifices and theirs is giving up competing in women's sport.

But fine if they want to portray themselves as chicks yet still compete with fellow dudes

The broader principle being I don't give a sh*t what responsible adults do in their private lives as long as it had no detrimental impact upon others.


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