The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

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Farva
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by Farva »

Sensible Stephen wrote:So the cops shot a guy yesterday. :shock:
Tried to belt him with a metal bar apparently
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by BlackMac »

There is footage of the incident. He looks very justified to be fair. He was getting the living shit beaten out of him.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by village »

Farva wrote:
Sensible Stephen wrote:So the cops shot a guy yesterday. :shock:
Tried to belt him with a metal bar apparently
18 year old secondary school student. Part of a group of rioters who set upon an isolated cop in the side streets of Tuen Muen. Other cops came running in (guns already drawn) and one fired twice, point blank, into the kid's chest.

Yes, the kid had a bar (not sure whether metal or wood) and was swinging it at a cop with a drawn gun, so sympathy only runs so far, but still, it's a pretty sad state of affairs that it's come to this and people are generally relieved that yesterday passed off with relatively little escalation in violence. Fortunately it sounds as if the kid is going to survive.

Meanwhile much of the MTR and over 30 shopping malls were closed all day yesterday - one of the busiest shopping days of the year usually. Retailers and landlords must be getting killed by this as it continues. There's already 10% vacancy rate in Causeway Bay.

There are plenty of local HKers I know who are supportive of the police and not so fond of the protesters, so fair to say the whole movement is as socially divisive as Brexit in the UK seems to be getting.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by Macrosan »

village wrote:
Farva wrote:
Sensible Stephen wrote:So the cops shot a guy yesterday. :shock:
Tried to belt him with a metal bar apparently
There are plenty of local HKers I know who are supportive of the police and not so fond of the protesters, so fair to say the whole movement is as socially divisive as Brexit in the UK seems to be getting.
I am no fan of mainland China but HK reverts to them in only 28 years. Is this a hill worth dying for?
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by Sensible Stephen »

Macrosan wrote:
village wrote:
Farva wrote:
Sensible Stephen wrote:So the cops shot a guy yesterday. :shock:
Tried to belt him with a metal bar apparently
There are plenty of local HKers I know who are supportive of the police and not so fond of the protesters, so fair to say the whole movement is as socially divisive as Brexit in the UK seems to be getting.
I am no fan of mainland China but HK reverts to them in only 28 years. Is this a hill worth dying for?
Yeah, I don't see what more protesting is going to achieve now.

On China, some commentators think it is starting to over extend itself and will crumble in the next decade or two. I hope so. Might be a shock for the world economy though.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by MungoMan »

Sensible Stephen wrote:
Macrosan wrote:
village wrote:
Farva wrote: Tried to belt him with a metal bar apparently
There are plenty of local HKers I know who are supportive of the police and not so fond of the protesters, so fair to say the whole movement is as socially divisive as Brexit in the UK seems to be getting.
I am no fan of mainland China but HK reverts to them in only 28 years. Is this a hill worth dying for?
Yeah, I don't see what more protesting is going to achieve now.

On China, some commentators think it is starting to over extend itself and will crumble in the next decade or two.
Well, the mandate of heaven isn't directly manifest, it's expressed via the Chinese people.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by troglodiet »

Am I the only person disappointed by the lack of Kung Fu fighting?
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Uncle Fester
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by Uncle Fester »

ESPN censoring any mention of China.

Also happening in other mediums.
BBC News - Hearthstone gamer banned for Hong Kong protest
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49971077

A lot of folks very afraid of offending China.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by grievous »

I’m there end of the week but really expect to see very little if anything. It’s the kinda town that you don’t notice a riot if not in the middle of it.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by goeagles »

Nice move. Might have to grab one before going to a game this year.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by village »

grievous wrote:I’m there end of the week but really expect to see very little if anything. It’s the kinda town that you don’t notice a riot if not in the middle of it.
Image

Well here's your places to avoid schedule then.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by bok_viking »

The protestors in Hong Kong are starting to cross a very bad line. They are beating up chinese nationals coming across the border and intimidating school kids coming from Shenzhen to school in Hong Kong.

Today they put a man to fire for disagreeing with them.

I was all for the pro democracy protests in the beginning but have absolutely no respect for them anymore. They are no better than those so-called brutal police.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by BlackMac »

The footage of them setting the guy on fire is horrific. Totally unjustified and one of the most callous things I've seen.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by bok_viking »

BlackMac wrote:The footage of them setting the guy on fire is horrific. Totally unjustified and one of the most callous things I've seen.
Yup the protestors are now just a bunch of common violent criminals. I don't know what goes through a persons mind to think it is ok to put someone on fire as part of a protest. Or to attack a school bus full of young kids, etc.
Listening to some of the HK residents, the protestors are starting to lose the support of the local population.
One hong kong guy in the office today said maybe china should send the military in. The same guy that was part of some of the initial protests few months ago.
Shouting police brutality and dealing violence out themselves. Pot calling the kettle black right now.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by naki111 »

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Last edited by naki111 on Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:41 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by sockwithaticket »

bok_viking wrote:
BlackMac wrote:The footage of them setting the guy on fire is horrific. Totally unjustified and one of the most callous things I've seen.
Yup the protestors are now just a bunch of common violent criminals. I don't know what goes through a persons mind to think it is ok to put someone on fire as part of a protest. Or to attack a school bus full of young kids, etc.
Listening to some of the HK residents, the protestors are starting to lose the support of the local population.
One hong kong guy in the office today said maybe china should send the military in. The same guy that was part of some of the initial protests few months ago.
Shouting police brutality and dealing violence out themselves. Pot calling the kettle black right now.
With the concession over extradition, is it the case that most moderate protestors have faded back into normal life and all you've got left now are radical revolutionaries who want Hong Kong independence?
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by Plato'sCave »

bok_viking wrote:
BlackMac wrote:The footage of them setting the guy on fire is horrific. Totally unjustified and one of the most callous things I've seen.
Yup the protestors are now just a bunch of common violent criminals. I don't know what goes through a persons mind to think it is ok to put someone on fire as part of a protest. Or to attack a school bus full of young kids, etc.
Listening to some of the HK residents, the protestors are starting to lose the support of the local population.
One hong kong guy in the office today said maybe china should send the military in. The same guy that was part of some of the initial protests few months ago.
Shouting police brutality and dealing violence out themselves. Pot calling the kettle black right now.
The dictionary calls it terrorism.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by bimboman »

Plato'sCave wrote:
bok_viking wrote:
BlackMac wrote:The footage of them setting the guy on fire is horrific. Totally unjustified and one of the most callous things I've seen.
Yup the protestors are now just a bunch of common violent criminals. I don't know what goes through a persons mind to think it is ok to put someone on fire as part of a protest. Or to attack a school bus full of young kids, etc.
Listening to some of the HK residents, the protestors are starting to lose the support of the local population.
One hong kong guy in the office today said maybe china should send the military in. The same guy that was part of some of the initial protests few months ago.
Shouting police brutality and dealing violence out themselves. Pot calling the kettle black right now.
The dictionary calls it terrorism.

Like bad jihadis ? Or freedom fighting ANC ?
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by naki111 »

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Last edited by naki111 on Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by The Optimist »

https://twitter.com/i/status/1193720129856520192
The unarmed young man shot in the abdomen is an alumnus of Salesian School on #HongKong Island, the high school I went to. Is this the proper way to handle a casualty who is likely to suffer from internal organ lacerations and crushed veins? #SaiWanHo #HongKongProtests #FreedomHK

Hong Kong Police the N A Z I storm troopers! Fcuk the P O L I C E!!! :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by village »

sockwithaticket wrote:
bok_viking wrote:
BlackMac wrote:The footage of them setting the guy on fire is horrific. Totally unjustified and one of the most callous things I've seen.
Yup the protestors are now just a bunch of common violent criminals. I don't know what goes through a persons mind to think it is ok to put someone on fire as part of a protest. Or to attack a school bus full of young kids, etc.
Listening to some of the HK residents, the protestors are starting to lose the support of the local population.
One hong kong guy in the office today said maybe china should send the military in. The same guy that was part of some of the initial protests few months ago.
Shouting police brutality and dealing violence out themselves. Pot calling the kettle black right now.
With the concession over extradition, is it the case that most moderate protestors have faded back into normal life and all you've got left now are radical revolutionaries who want Hong Kong independence?
No. Plenty of people are fed up with the protests and there have been an increasing number of brawls and confrontations between pro-China citizens and protesters. Everyone I know who owns property here is desperate for it to end before their house price collapses. Renters tend to have a different view of course. There also seems to be something of a generational divide with stories of parents begging their kids not to join protests and stay safe. I would say the crowd is much younger and more radical than the sunday afternoon walkers who mobilised in the millions against the extradition bill.

However there is also a lot of anger with the police across a wide spectrum of the city. This week we have seen lunchtime protests in Central by office workers including more ex-Pats than usual. There are some real horror stories circulating about the police (gang rapes in police stations, a suspicious rise in 'suicides' by youngsters found floating in the bay, PLA troops dressed as cops, paramedics prevented from helping injured) I dare say much of it is fake news and hysteria but there's been plenty of video footage that shows police behaving badly to stoke the suspicion and distrust. Some of that is inevitable I guess, they are poorly trained and have been under stress for months - many of them seem to have cracked. Unfortunately the same escalation / radicalisation is underway among the protest frontliners so you get nutters like the guy who burned the poor bloke on Monday. The Cops have fired an unholy amount of tear gas, often quite needlessly and recklessly (out of the open door of moving riot vans seems to be deemed acceptable these days). Supposedly 88% of HKers have been exposed to the gas at some point now and who knows what the long term health effects are, (particularly for the very young). People are angry at police for that for sure and the lack of accountability (no warrant cards displayed, no comeback on those officers who have over stepped the line. On Monday a cop drove his motorcycle at people, trying to ram them like some sort of ISIS nutter - the video is everywhere and people ask, how is that acceptable policing? Yesterday a commander was caught on film telling his men to aim for the heads of protesters with their tear gas rounds. Today at the press conference the police chiefs tried to claim he had only meant to say upper body [as if that's fine] and misspoke). There has been a total breakdown in trust between the press and the police. I guess the police see the press as too friendly with protesters or being protesters in disguise and the press have taken the brunt of some of the police misbehaviour. We have seen journalists blinded, beaten up, shot at with no protesters around etc. There is also huge amount of anger at Carrie Lam who has repeatedly shown a total lack of leadership. Even Beijing seem to realise she needs to go soon. Hard to see how it calms down from here. Clearly the authorities won't back down on the 5 demands and yet 4,000 arrests have been made and the protest is still going strong. Of those 4,000 arrested, a huge majority are under the age of 25. There's a whole generation of students and school kids whose world view will never be the same after this year. One way or another HK has changed forever.

My company is looking very seriously at relocating from HK in the coming months now and that's true of almost every other ex-Pat I know here. There's just no reason to be based in HK if public order is no longer a given.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by sockwithaticket »

Thanks for that insight, village. Coverage of the situation has become patchy here (UK).
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by bok_viking »

village wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
bok_viking wrote:
BlackMac wrote:The footage of them setting the guy on fire is horrific. Totally unjustified and one of the most callous things I've seen.
Yup the protestors are now just a bunch of common violent criminals. I don't know what goes through a persons mind to think it is ok to put someone on fire as part of a protest. Or to attack a school bus full of young kids, etc.
Listening to some of the HK residents, the protestors are starting to lose the support of the local population.
One hong kong guy in the office today said maybe china should send the military in. The same guy that was part of some of the initial protests few months ago.
Shouting police brutality and dealing violence out themselves. Pot calling the kettle black right now.
With the concession over extradition, is it the case that most moderate protestors have faded back into normal life and all you've got left now are radical revolutionaries who want Hong Kong independence?
No. Plenty of people are fed up with the protests and there have been an increasing number of brawls and confrontations between pro-China citizens and protesters. Everyone I know who owns property here is desperate for it to end before their house price collapses. Renters tend to have a different view of course. There also seems to be something of a generational divide with stories of parents begging their kids not to join protests and stay safe. I would say the crowd is much younger and more radical than the sunday afternoon walkers who mobilised in the millions against the extradition bill.

However there is also a lot of anger with the police across a wide spectrum of the city. This week we have seen lunchtime protests in Central by office workers including more ex-Pats than usual. There are some real horror stories circulating about the police (gang rapes in police stations, a suspicious rise in 'suicides' by youngsters found floating in the bay, PLA troops dressed as cops, paramedics prevented from helping injured) I dare say much of it is fake news and hysteria but there's been plenty of video footage that shows police behaving badly to stoke the suspicion and distrust. Some of that is inevitable I guess, they are poorly trained and have been under stress for months - many of them seem to have cracked. Unfortunately the same escalation / radicalisation is underway among the protest frontliners so you get nutters like the guy who burned the poor bloke on Monday. The Cops have fired an unholy amount of tear gas, often quite needlessly and recklessly (out of the open door of moving riot vans seems to be deemed acceptable these days). Supposedly 88% of HKers have been exposed to the gas at some point now and who knows what the long term health effects are, (particularly for the very young). People are angry at police for that for sure and the lack of accountability (no warrant cards displayed, no comeback on those officers who have over stepped the line. On Monday a cop drove his motorcycle at people, trying to ram them like some sort of ISIS nutter - the video is everywhere and people ask, how is that acceptable policing? Yesterday a commander was caught on film telling his men to aim for the heads of protesters with their tear gas rounds. Today at the press conference the police chiefs tried to claim he had only meant to say upper body [as if that's fine] and misspoke). There has been a total breakdown in trust between the press and the police. I guess the police see the press as too friendly with protesters or being protesters in disguise and the press have taken the brunt of some of the police misbehaviour. We have seen journalists blinded, beaten up, shot at with no protesters around etc. There is also huge amount of anger at Carrie Lam who has repeatedly shown a total lack of leadership. Even Beijing seem to realise she needs to go soon. Hard to see how it calms down from here. Clearly the authorities won't back down on the 5 demands and yet 4,000 arrests have been made and the protest is still going strong. Of those 4,000 arrested, a huge majority are under the age of 25. There's a whole generation of students and school kids whose world view will never be the same after this year. One way or another HK has changed forever.

My company is looking very seriously at relocating from HK in the coming months now and that's true of almost every other ex-Pat I know here. There's just no reason to be based in HK if public order is no longer a given.
The current lot of "protestors" seem to be mostly student age. But there are definitely 2 sides to the story. These rioters are trying to portray the police as brutal but I have witnessed several cases this past week of the protestors also attacking old people and other people. Last night they attacked a Tiawanese and japanese guy that were just here on business, and it sounds like the only reason they attacked them was because the taiwanese guy was speaking mandarin on his phone at the time and the japanese guy looked chinese.

As I mentioned before they even attacked buses with primary school kids in it. Not to mention all the vandalizing going on. In our offices the workers are not scared on the police, they are scared of these rioters. And when they see people trying to take videos of them, they attack those people too, so people seem to be scared to record what is happening.
When the average citizen feels more scared of the protestors supposedly championing their cause, then for my part they just turned into a bunch of urban terrorists, terrorising anybody who does not agree with their view or dare tell them that they are doing wrong.
I honestly cannot see see police in any western country allowing rioters to do as much damage as is being done here.
The HK police is hopelessly under trained for handling this kind of thing it seems. And they actually look scared facing these mobs.

The area I stayed last night had a mob if these rioters walking up and down the streets, damaging what ever they could and disrupting traffic as much as possible and there was no police in site, yet they would still claim police brutality.

I was very supportive of the original rallies and protests a few months ago, but not of the currently bunch.
They should just take the repair bill to fix HK snf split it up between all these rioters that were caught so far, and let them pay it off for the rest of their lifes.

The police did some bad stuff themselves, but these so called protestors are no better in my eyes.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by paddyor »

bok_viking wrote:The protestors in Hong Kong are starting to cross a very bad line. They are beating up chinese nationals coming across the border and intimidating school kids coming from Shenzhen to school in Hong Kong.

Today they put a man to fire for disagreeing with them.

I was all for the pro democracy protests in the beginning but have absolutely no respect for them anymore. They are no better than those so-called brutal police.
I don't know nearly enough about this, but I'd be very careful about believing everything you read they're alleged to have done. Party officials are known to have sent "tourists" to places like vietnam in clothing promoting the "9 dash line" (PRC believe that china has dominion of the south china sea covered by a 9 dash line that effectively infringes on the rights of Vietnam and the philipines). They then broadcast the reactions of Vietnamese to the "tourists" to gee up nationalist sentiment back home. Apparently it's a cottage industry for party apparachniks. The NBA stuff is being coordinated.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by village »

bok_viking wrote:
village wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
bok_viking wrote:
BlackMac wrote:The footage of them setting the guy on fire is horrific. Totally unjustified and one of the most callous things I've seen.
Yup the protestors are now just a bunch of common violent criminals. I don't know what goes through a persons mind to think it is ok to put someone on fire as part of a protest. Or to attack a school bus full of young kids, etc.
Listening to some of the HK residents, the protestors are starting to lose the support of the local population.
One hong kong guy in the office today said maybe china should send the military in. The same guy that was part of some of the initial protests few months ago.
Shouting police brutality and dealing violence out themselves. Pot calling the kettle black right now.
With the concession over extradition, is it the case that most moderate protestors have faded back into normal life and all you've got left now are radical revolutionaries who want Hong Kong independence?
No. Plenty of people are fed up with the protests and there have been an increasing number of brawls and confrontations between pro-China citizens and protesters. Everyone I know who owns property here is desperate for it to end before their house price collapses. Renters tend to have a different view of course. There also seems to be something of a generational divide with stories of parents begging their kids not to join protests and stay safe. I would say the crowd is much younger and more radical than the sunday afternoon walkers who mobilised in the millions against the extradition bill.

However there is also a lot of anger with the police across a wide spectrum of the city. This week we have seen lunchtime protests in Central by office workers including more ex-Pats than usual. There are some real horror stories circulating about the police (gang rapes in police stations, a suspicious rise in 'suicides' by youngsters found floating in the bay, PLA troops dressed as cops, paramedics prevented from helping injured) I dare say much of it is fake news and hysteria but there's been plenty of video footage that shows police behaving badly to stoke the suspicion and distrust. Some of that is inevitable I guess, they are poorly trained and have been under stress for months - many of them seem to have cracked. Unfortunately the same escalation / radicalisation is underway among the protest frontliners so you get nutters like the guy who burned the poor bloke on Monday. The Cops have fired an unholy amount of tear gas, often quite needlessly and recklessly (out of the open door of moving riot vans seems to be deemed acceptable these days). Supposedly 88% of HKers have been exposed to the gas at some point now and who knows what the long term health effects are, (particularly for the very young). People are angry at police for that for sure and the lack of accountability (no warrant cards displayed, no comeback on those officers who have over stepped the line. On Monday a cop drove his motorcycle at people, trying to ram them like some sort of ISIS nutter - the video is everywhere and people ask, how is that acceptable policing? Yesterday a commander was caught on film telling his men to aim for the heads of protesters with their tear gas rounds. Today at the press conference the police chiefs tried to claim he had only meant to say upper body [as if that's fine] and misspoke). There has been a total breakdown in trust between the press and the police. I guess the police see the press as too friendly with protesters or being protesters in disguise and the press have taken the brunt of some of the police misbehaviour. We have seen journalists blinded, beaten up, shot at with no protesters around etc. There is also huge amount of anger at Carrie Lam who has repeatedly shown a total lack of leadership. Even Beijing seem to realise she needs to go soon. Hard to see how it calms down from here. Clearly the authorities won't back down on the 5 demands and yet 4,000 arrests have been made and the protest is still going strong. Of those 4,000 arrested, a huge majority are under the age of 25. There's a whole generation of students and school kids whose world view will never be the same after this year. One way or another HK has changed forever.

My company is looking very seriously at relocating from HK in the coming months now and that's true of almost every other ex-Pat I know here. There's just no reason to be based in HK if public order is no longer a given.
The current lot of "protestors" seem to be mostly student age. But there are definitely 2 sides to the story. These rioters are trying to portray the police as brutal but I have witnessed several cases this past week of the protestors also attacking old people and other people. Last night they attacked a Tiawanese and japanese guy that were just here on business, and it sounds like the only reason they attacked them was because the taiwanese guy was speaking mandarin on his phone at the time and the japanese guy looked chinese.

As I mentioned before they even attacked buses with primary school kids in it. Not to mention all the vandalizing going on. In our offices the workers are not scared on the police, they are scared of these rioters. And when they see people trying to take videos of them, they attack those people too, so people seem to be scared to record what is happening.
When the average citizen feels more scared of the protestors supposedly championing their cause, then for my part they just turned into a bunch of urban terrorists, terrorising anybody who does not agree with their view or dare tell them that they are doing wrong.
I honestly cannot see see police in any western country allowing rioters to do as much damage as is being done here.
The HK police is hopelessly under trained for handling this kind of thing it seems. And they actually look scared facing these mobs.

The area I stayed last night had a mob if these rioters walking up and down the streets, damaging what ever they could and disrupting traffic as much as possible and there was no police in site, yet they would still claim police brutality.

I was very supportive of the original rallies and protests a few months ago, but not of the currently bunch.
They should just take the repair bill to fix HK snf split it up between all these rioters that were caught so far, and let them pay it off for the rest of their lifes.

The police did some bad stuff themselves, but these so called protestors are no better in my eyes.
I agree many of the protesters are no angels. There has been acid thrown at the cops, there have been an increasing number of violent confrontations between frontliners and people they feel are not on their side (I can understand how to a mandarin speaker the city would feel a lot more threatening than to a gweilo). Today there were bricks thrown back and forth between protesters and people who wanted the road cleared. A 70 year old man was hit in the head by a brick and there are reports he has died. The footage of the man set alight on monday is everywhere and as you say, there is plenty of vandalism going on.

The difference between the bad behaviour of the mob and the bad behaviour of police officers though comes down to consequences. The first one being common criminality for which we have a judicial system and the other seemingly protected by the state with no consequences. I saw a survey today that said 51% of HKers have zero trust in the police (70% have a negative impression of them). That is an alarmingly high figure for any city and the change compared to how I would guess people felt 5-6 months ago is staggering. If individual bad eggs were being publicly reprimanded by the police, a large amount of public anger would be resolved, instead cops are out on the streets wearing masks with no ID or badge numbers displayed, cracking skulls and using force as they please. The two sides are feeding on one another - the disorder this week, some will say, is all down to the cop shooting an unarmed man on monday morning...but then the other side can say that the unarmed man was part of a group trying to overpower a cop and disrupt traffic...but the traffic disruption was to protest police brutality...but that brutality was done trying to stop rioting, but that rioting.... round and round it goes. It needs leadership from the government but all Carrie Lam ever does is follow the HK slogan and Add Oil! (to the fire).
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by Yourmother »

China’s best political move would be to
- drop the extradition law
- put some mainlanders in to the protest to cause violence, set on fire, etc
- wait for the HK public to call for help, an end and realise who the bad guys are
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by bimboman »

Yourmother wrote:China’s best political move would be to
- drop the extradition law
- put some mainlanders in to the protest to cause violence, set on fire, etc
- wait for the HK public to call for help, an end and realise who the bad guys are

They might still think it’s the Chinese government, I’m not sure you’ve thought that through.
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wamberal99
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by wamberal99 »

I lived and worked in Hong Kong for a number of years, between 1976 and 1995 (not continuously - also in Thailand for four years in that time).


I thought I understood the place pretty well. Hong Kongers used to be the most pragmatic, phlegmatic, population imaginable. Head down, arse up, work as hard as possible, make as much money as you can.


There was absolutely no vandalism, no jealousy of the rich. There was some resentment of the Brits, mainly on the basis that many expats were perceived to be less capable than the locals, but were paid several times more apparently just because they could speak English.

Emigration was always a big issue, ideally to the "Gold Mountain" aka the USA.


Now I just shake my head. I cannot for the life of me believe this is going on. I was in Hong Kong on the day the tanks rolled into Tiananmen Square. I am glad I am not going to be there when they roll into Hong Kong, because I have absolutely no doubt that there will be no happy or peaceful ending to this.
naki111
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by naki111 »

wamberal99 wrote: I was in Hong Kong on the day the tanks rolled into Tiananmen Square. I am glad I am not going to be there when they roll into Hong Kong, because I have absolutely no doubt that there will be no happy or peaceful ending to this.

The tanks aren't going to roll in to Hong Kong. This isn't 1989 and the situations are very different.
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wamberal99
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by wamberal99 »

naki111 wrote:
wamberal99 wrote: I was in Hong Kong on the day the tanks rolled into Tiananmen Square. I am glad I am not going to be there when they roll into Hong Kong, because I have absolutely no doubt that there will be no happy or peaceful ending to this.

The tanks aren't going to roll in to Hong Kong. This isn't 1989 and the situations are very different.

The phrase is not meant literally. Yes, the situations are very different. In terms of civil disobedience and disorder, things seem to be much worse in Hong Kong now than they were in Beijing back then.


What do you believe will happen? Something or somebody has to give. Who will it be?
naki111
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by naki111 »

wamberal99 wrote:
naki111 wrote:
wamberal99 wrote: I was in Hong Kong on the day the tanks rolled into Tiananmen Square. I am glad I am not going to be there when they roll into Hong Kong, because I have absolutely no doubt that there will be no happy or peaceful ending to this.

The tanks aren't going to roll in to Hong Kong. This isn't 1989 and the situations are very different.

The phrase is not meant literally. Yes, the situations are very different. In terms of civil disobedience and disorder, things seem to be much worse in Hong Kong now than they were in Beijing back then.


What do you believe will happen? Something or somebody has to give. Who will it be?
I think the CCP will just continue to play the waiting game as they have because essentially they hold all the cards. Hong Kong will continue its slow but steady decay until it becomes just another large Chinese city like Guangzhou or Shenzhen.

When the protesters were in the airport a while back I thought that was a very clever and interesting tactic. I'm amazed no one died but at the time I was sure there were martyr-like elements that were willing to die in or around the airport for the cause that would have escalated things considerably and put the CCP in a situation they really didn't want to be in in front of international travelers and the world's media.

At the start of the protests this summer it appeared that most of the protesters and seemingly even non-HKers (as shown on this thread) were all relatively on the same page about the five demands and general desire for greater accountability and transparency within HK. This 'grand coalition' has started to unravel pretty rapidly in the last couple of weeks. What I think has been a big downfall of the movement and a large driver of this radicalisation has been the lack of centralised leadership. I can understand the advantages this might have offered to the movement at the start but I think now we're beginning to see the downsides of this as more radical elements start to take over in the absence of accountability to any kind of leadership structure. As more radical elements continue on this path of destruction they'll lose more and more support for their original intentions which were noble, if not more than a bit naive. The CCP is sitting back, watching all this happen and rubbing their hands. They probably don't have to do as much of the false flag stuff any more which was pretty blatant at the start because these more radical elements are doing all the horrific shit for them which justifies a greater response, greater 'security' measures in HK etc.

I really feel sad for the young people of Hong Kong. Do nothing and they lose their rights eventually or stand up to protest and risk arrest or worse. They're between a rock and hard place.

I have to go to HK for work in a couple of weeks. I managed to avoid it last month because I was a bit concerned about the security situation there but now it's unavoidable unfortunately. My mates there assure me things will be fine if I keep my nose clean but two weeks is a long time and things can deteriorate rapidly in that time.
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wamberal99
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by wamberal99 »

Good post. There are differing points of view about the way Beijing sees the importance (or otherwise) of Hong Kong, of course. I am not close enough, or well informed enough, to have an informed view. However, anecdotally a lot of rich Mainlanders own property there, and I have assumed that they would like the place to survive in something like its present "glory". Such as it is!!!


But, either way, 2047 is coming, ready or not!!!
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by grievous »

naki111 wrote:
wamberal99 wrote:
naki111 wrote:
wamberal99 wrote: I was in Hong Kong on the day the tanks rolled into Tiananmen Square. I am glad I am not going to be there when they roll into Hong Kong, because I have absolutely no doubt that there will be no happy or peaceful ending to this.

The tanks aren't going to roll in to Hong Kong. This isn't 1989 and the situations are very different.

The phrase is not meant literally. Yes, the situations are very different. In terms of civil disobedience and disorder, things seem to be much worse in Hong Kong now than they were in Beijing back then.


What do you believe will happen? Something or somebody has to give. Who will it be?
I think the CCP will just continue to play the waiting game as they have because essentially they hold all the cards. Hong Kong will continue its slow but steady decay until it becomes just another large Chinese city like Guangzhou or Shenzhen.

When the protesters were in the airport a while back I thought that was a very clever and interesting tactic. I'm amazed no one died but at the time I was sure there were martyr-like elements that were willing to die in or around the airport for the cause that would have escalated things considerably and put the CCP in a situation they really didn't want to be in in front of international travelers and the world's media.

At the start of the protests this summer it appeared that most of the protesters and seemingly even non-HKers (as shown on this thread) were all relatively on the same page about the five demands and general desire for greater accountability and transparency within HK. This 'grand coalition' has started to unravel pretty rapidly in the last couple of weeks. What I think has been a big downfall of the movement and a large driver of this radicalisation has been the lack of centralised leadership. I can understand the advantages this might have offered to the movement at the start but I think now we're beginning to see the downsides of this as more radical elements start to take over in the absence of accountability to any kind of leadership structure. As more radical elements continue on this path of destruction they'll lose more and more support for their original intentions which were noble, if not more than a bit naive. The CCP is sitting back, watching all this happen and rubbing their hands. They probably don't have to do as much of the false flag stuff any more which was pretty blatant at the start because these more radical elements are doing all the horrific shit for them which justifies a greater response, greater 'security' measures in HK etc.

I really feel sad for the young people of Hong Kong. Do nothing and they lose their rights eventually or stand up to protest and risk arrest or worse. They're between a rock and hard place.

I have to go to HK for work in a couple of weeks. I managed to avoid it last month because I was a bit concerned about the security situation there but now it's unavoidable unfortunately. My mates there assure me things will be fine if I keep my nose clean but two weeks is a long time and things can deteriorate rapidly in that time.
I was there two weeks ago. Riot came right down Nathan rd where my hotel is. Then we came out and went to dinner, in fact we could f taken photos from the sideline as it went past.
There is no issue, avoid the epicentres and watch for the MTR line closures otherwise it won't affect you one bit, thats the beauty of the place, its too busy to be affected by anything
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Calculus
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by Calculus »

I was also there two weeks ago and also stayed in a hotel in Nathan road. Stayed for a week and saw a fair bit of HK, there was a slight increase in police presence and more graffiti than my previous trip (about two months ago) but never once felt unsafe.
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by village »

2 weeks ago things were far quieter than now so I'm not surprised it didn't seem much then. Also the real violence is happening away from central and TST: Hung Hom, Tuen Mun, Tsuen Wan, Yuen Long, Shatin, Tung Chung - not really places the sex tourists frequent ;)
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by grievous »

village wrote:2 weeks ago things were far quieter than now so I'm not surprised it didn't seem much then. Also the real violence is happening away from central and TST: Hung Hom, Tuen Mun, Tsuen Wan, Yuen Long, Shatin, Tung Chung - not really places the sex tourists frequent ;)
People go to HK for rub n tugs?? Thought that died out 50 years ago. Wan Chai is a crèche compared to Makati or Patpong
Denirostaxidriver
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by Denirostaxidriver »

grievous wrote:
village wrote:2 weeks ago things were far quieter than now so I'm not surprised it didn't seem much then. Also the real violence is happening away from central and TST: Hung Hom, Tuen Mun, Tsuen Wan, Yuen Long, Shatin, Tung Chung - not really places the sex tourists frequent ;)
People go to HK for rub n tugs?? Thought that died out 50 years ago. Wan Chai is a crèche compared to Makati or Patpong
Makati is nothing compared to either these days. In a couple of years that strip will be almost completely gone. Area has some very cool bars and restaurants. That will continue to gentrify.

If you are talking about dodgy massage places then Singapore is worse than Makati.
grievous
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by grievous »

Denirostaxidriver wrote:
grievous wrote:
village wrote:2 weeks ago things were far quieter than now so I'm not surprised it didn't seem much then. Also the real violence is happening away from central and TST: Hung Hom, Tuen Mun, Tsuen Wan, Yuen Long, Shatin, Tung Chung - not really places the sex tourists frequent ;)
People go to HK for rub n tugs?? Thought that died out 50 years ago. Wan Chai is a crèche compared to Makati or Patpong
Makati is nothing compared to either these days. In a couple of years that strip will be almost completely gone. Area has some very cool bars and restaurants. That will continue to gentrify.

If you are talking about dodgy massage places then Singapore is worse than Makati.
Fair enough I was last in Manila in early noughties.
Im sure there are Asian posters with up to date lists.
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wamberal99
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Re: The masses against the (political) classes in Hong Kong

Post by wamberal99 »

I just read a piece in "The New Yorker" of 16th December 2019 titled "Hong Kong's Protest Movement and the Fight for the City's Soul" by Jiayang Fang.


It is worth reading, pretty easy to download it.
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