The Culture Wars Mega Thread

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Harveys
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Harveys »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:47 pm I just read this, and although it should warrant stunned disbeleif, unfortunately it seems more like "situation normal" these days.

What a disgrace. Hang your heads. The world's most preeminent evolutionary biologist silenced -- as apparently iron-aged voodoo trumps uncomfortable discussion about religion in places of reason and education these days.
Celebrated atheist Richard Dawkins was booked to address the College Historical Society (nicknamed the Hist) at Trinity College Dublin next year. But the society’s auditor has now announced that the invitation will be rescinded, citing Dawkins’ views on ‘Islam and sexual assault’.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/2 ... KCiPCv042c
Where was “Iron age voodoo” sited as their reason for rescinding the invitation?

First Peterson, now Dawkins, looks like the stupidity is dispensed with an even hand though.

I guess in both cases sticking to your professional field and not running around gobbing off on other issues would have prevented the odd outcomes.
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paddyor
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by paddyor »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:47 pm I just read this, and although it should warrant stunned disbeleif, unfortunately it seems more like "situation normal" these days.

What a disgrace. Hang your heads. The world's most preeminent evolutionary biologist silenced -- as apparently iron-aged voodoo trumps uncomfortable discussion about religion in places of reason and education these days.
Celebrated atheist Richard Dawkins was booked to address the College Historical Society (nicknamed the Hist) at Trinity College Dublin next year. But the society’s auditor has now announced that the invitation will be rescinded, citing Dawkins’ views on ‘Islam and sexual assault’.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/2 ... KCiPCv042c
I don't agree with the decision but I don't really care either. The speaking/debating circuit isn't that important to intellectuals hawking their wares as it once was and Dawkins will probably do well from the publicity.

Spiked is awful shite btw.
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paddyor
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by paddyor »

Harveys wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:05 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:47 pm I just read this, and although it should warrant stunned disbeleif, unfortunately it seems more like "situation normal" these days.

What a disgrace. Hang your heads. The world's most preeminent evolutionary biologist silenced -- as apparently iron-aged voodoo trumps uncomfortable discussion about religion in places of reason and education these days.
Celebrated atheist Richard Dawkins was booked to address the College Historical Society (nicknamed the Hist) at Trinity College Dublin next year. But the society’s auditor has now announced that the invitation will be rescinded, citing Dawkins’ views on ‘Islam and sexual assault’.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/2 ... KCiPCv042c
Where was “Iron age voodoo” sited as their reason for rescinding the invitation?

First Peterson, now Dawkins, looks like the stupidity is dispensed with an even hand though.

I guess in both cases sticking to your professional field and not running around gobbing off on other issues would have prevented the odd outcomes.
It didn't really have a negative impact on Peterson though did it? He earned a packet and was fecking off to find a new way to make even more money. It was his daughter that did for him rather than "cancel culture".
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Harveys
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Harveys »

paddyor wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:46 pm
Harveys wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:05 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:47 pm I just read this, and although it should warrant stunned disbeleif, unfortunately it seems more like "situation normal" these days.

What a disgrace. Hang your heads. The world's most preeminent evolutionary biologist silenced -- as apparently iron-aged voodoo trumps uncomfortable discussion about religion in places of reason and education these days.
Celebrated atheist Richard Dawkins was booked to address the College Historical Society (nicknamed the Hist) at Trinity College Dublin next year. But the society’s auditor has now announced that the invitation will be rescinded, citing Dawkins’ views on ‘Islam and sexual assault’.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/2 ... KCiPCv042c
Where was “Iron age voodoo” sited as their reason for rescinding the invitation?

First Peterson, now Dawkins, looks like the stupidity is dispensed with an even hand though.

I guess in both cases sticking to your professional field and not running around gobbing off on other issues would have prevented the odd outcomes.
It didn't really have a negative impact on Peterson though did it? He earned a packet and was fecking off to find a new way to make even more money. It was his daughter that did for him rather than "cancel culture".
It’s not negatively impacting either of them in the long run, though arguably Peterson was looking to spend more time at Cambridge than Dawkins cancelled book event.

Mogs is having a cry as Dawkins falls in with his beloved Harris’s beliefs. It’s an opportunity to take a shot at anything vaguely religious in nature.

Seems to me that the people who set out to disprove myth, poetry, symbolism and analogy as literally untrue are as silly as the people who accept it as literally true.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Mog The Almighty »

All of you are missing the point, especially Harveys.

It's not about whether it hurts Dawkins or not. It's about cancelling academic discussion from being heard at places of higher learning and research. That is the part that is disgraceful. I'm sure Dawkins will be just fine. The students, I'm more worried about. What sort of f-cking University decides what the students should be exposed to based on whether it might hurt someone's feelings or not who believes in iron-aged magic? That is completely retarded. It is literally disgraceful.

What are we going to do next? Ban cosmologists from speaking because flat-earthers and astrologers might get offended?

It's not as if we're talking about anything that should be controversial here. At least not in sensible, rational, grown up discussion. He's an evolutionary biologist ffs. And what's he been silenced for anyway? There are young women activists in the Republic of Iran to this day being imprisoned and "disappearing" (I can only assume raped too) for the crime of speaking out about being mandatorily dressed from head to to toe in a black bag. Are we pretending that Islam (or any other religion, but perhaps especially Islam) is a shining light of sexual equality? That's absurd. To ban the world's most preeminent evolutionary biologist for speaking out against one of the obvious evils that results from religious belief is laa-laa land stuff.

Harveys wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:07 pm Mogs is having a cry as Dawkins falls in with his beloved Harris’s beliefs. It’s an opportunity to take a shot at anything vaguely religious in nature.

Seems to me that the people who set out to disprove myth, poetry, symbolism and analogy as literally untrue are as silly as the people who accept it as literally true.
I'm going to go easy on you here as you obviously don't know much about either of them or their views.

Firstly, Dawkins has been at this since the 70s, when Harris with still in daipers. He's not "falling in" with Harris.

Secondly, nobody is out to "disprove poetry". And myth is, by definition, accepted not to be true.

You're completely missing their point. They're not trying to rid the world of art, or even spirituality. You've also picked a pretty bad example in Harris if you think that, he also promotes spirituality and meditation, and in fact has built a widely used meditation app.

They both have slightly different agendas and motivations, but it comes down to telling the truth about the nature of reality and removing the influence of mythology from science and politics. You should read some of their work sometime, because you're really way off. Neither of them (nor anyone that I know about) wants to burn bibles, tear down churches, destroy symbology or poetry or anything even remotely close to that. What they don't want is students walking out of classrooms when the teachers starts to talk about evolution, or "equal time" being given to creation theory in science class, or militant religious zealots flying planes into buildings, or Presidents being elected based on their professed belief in magic, or continual warfare over a strip of desert in the Middle East because apparently God promised it to too many people.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Santa »

The point is the effect it has on younger or more precariousy placed academics. If even Dawkins and Peterson can be denied a platform to speak then nobody in a worse position is going to utter a peep.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by bimboman »

“I only want to debate with someone who’s ideas make me comfortable “:


Now there’s a useless useless organisation.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by MungoMan »

bimboman wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:29 am “I only want to debate with someone who’s ideas make me comfortable “:


Now there’s a useless useless organisation.
“will not be moving ahead with his address as we value our members comfort above all else”.
So: ramps, wide doors, a good selection of seating choices, sensible temperature control, ample shithouse facilities and decent tea and bickies. Sorted.
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Harveys
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Harveys »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:50 am All of you are missing the point, especially Harveys.

It's not about whether it hurts Dawkins or not. It's about cancelling academic discussion from being heard at places of higher learning and research. That is the part that is disgraceful. I'm sure Dawkins will be just fine. The students, I'm more worried about. What sort of f-cking University decides what the students should be exposed to based on whether it might hurt someone's feelings or not who believes in iron-aged magic? That is completely retarded. It is literally disgraceful.

What are we going to do next? Ban cosmologists from speaking because flat-earthers and astrologers might get offended?

It's not as if we're talking about anything that should be controversial here. At least not in sensible, rational, grown up discussion. He's an evolutionary biologist ffs. And what's he been silenced for anyway? There are young women activists in the Republic of Iran to this day being imprisoned and "disappearing" (I can only assume raped too) for the crime of speaking out about being mandatorily dressed from head to to toe in a black bag. Are we pretending that Islam (or any other religion, but perhaps especially Islam) is a shining light of sexual equality? That's absurd. To ban the world's most preeminent evolutionary biologist for speaking out against one of the obvious evils that results from religious belief is laa-laa land stuff.

Harveys wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:07 pm Mogs is having a cry as Dawkins falls in with his beloved Harris’s beliefs. It’s an opportunity to take a shot at anything vaguely religious in nature.

Seems to me that the people who set out to disprove myth, poetry, symbolism and analogy as literally untrue are as silly as the people who accept it as literally true.
I'm going to go easy on you here as you obviously don't know much about either of them or their views.

Firstly, Dawkins has been at this since the 70s, when Harris with still in daipers. He's not "falling in" with Harris.

Secondly, nobody is out to "disprove poetry". And myth is, by definition, accepted not to be true.

You're completely missing their point. They're not trying to rid the world of art, or even spirituality. You've also picked a pretty bad example in Harris if you think that, he also promotes spirituality and meditation, and in fact has built a widely used meditation app.

They both have slightly different agendas and motivations, but it comes down to telling the truth about the nature of reality and removing the influence of mythology from science and politics. You should read some of their work sometime, because you're really way off. Neither of them (nor anyone that I know about) wants to burn bibles, tear down churches, destroy symbology or poetry or anything even remotely close to that. What they don't want is students walking out of classrooms when the teachers starts to talk about evolution, or "equal time" being given to creation theory in science class, or militant religious zealots flying planes into buildings, or Presidents being elected based on their professed belief in magic, or continual warfare over a strip of desert in the Middle East because apparently God promised it to too many people.
I understand the point completely TBH I just don’t give a shit, find somewhere else to have the discourse, Petersons rescinded fellowship was bigger news. Honestly, this cancel culture crap is a passing cultural epoch
I am well versed in Petersons work thanks.
Your motivation on some issues is questionable as your bias sticks out, a lot, as does your affinity for Sam Harris who I am also well aware of.
The point I made stands, he isn’t being denied his book talk based on the school not wanting to give evolution air time it’s on the back of his strong opinions about Islam among other things.
The highlighted part is the nonsense Harris and Dawkins get lost in, what’s the solution then, because taking it away from some means taking it away from all when it’s a minority that’s gone all loon, the same loony crap can get whipped up from politics.
Harris’s belief that we can remove religious belief so people can be more rational and logical shows his lack of understanding of human nature.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Harveys wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:40 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:50 am All of you are missing the point, especially Harveys.

It's not about whether it hurts Dawkins or not. It's about cancelling academic discussion from being heard at places of higher learning and research. That is the part that is disgraceful. I'm sure Dawkins will be just fine. The students, I'm more worried about. What sort of f-cking University decides what the students should be exposed to based on whether it might hurt someone's feelings or not who believes in iron-aged magic? That is completely retarded. It is literally disgraceful.

What are we going to do next? Ban cosmologists from speaking because flat-earthers and astrologers might get offended?

It's not as if we're talking about anything that should be controversial here. At least not in sensible, rational, grown up discussion. He's an evolutionary biologist ffs. And what's he been silenced for anyway? There are young women activists in the Republic of Iran to this day being imprisoned and "disappearing" (I can only assume raped too) for the crime of speaking out about being mandatorily dressed from head to to toe in a black bag. Are we pretending that Islam (or any other religion, but perhaps especially Islam) is a shining light of sexual equality? That's absurd. To ban the world's most preeminent evolutionary biologist for speaking out against one of the obvious evils that results from religious belief is laa-laa land stuff.

Harveys wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:07 pm Mogs is having a cry as Dawkins falls in with his beloved Harris’s beliefs. It’s an opportunity to take a shot at anything vaguely religious in nature.

Seems to me that the people who set out to disprove myth, poetry, symbolism and analogy as literally untrue are as silly as the people who accept it as literally true.
I'm going to go easy on you here as you obviously don't know much about either of them or their views.

Firstly, Dawkins has been at this since the 70s, when Harris with still in daipers. He's not "falling in" with Harris.

Secondly, nobody is out to "disprove poetry". And myth is, by definition, accepted not to be true.

You're completely missing their point. They're not trying to rid the world of art, or even spirituality. You've also picked a pretty bad example in Harris if you think that, he also promotes spirituality and meditation, and in fact has built a widely used meditation app.

They both have slightly different agendas and motivations, but it comes down to telling the truth about the nature of reality and removing the influence of mythology from science and politics. You should read some of their work sometime, because you're really way off. Neither of them (nor anyone that I know about) wants to burn bibles, tear down churches, destroy symbology or poetry or anything even remotely close to that. What they don't want is students walking out of classrooms when the teachers starts to talk about evolution, or "equal time" being given to creation theory in science class, or militant religious zealots flying planes into buildings, or Presidents being elected based on their professed belief in magic, or continual warfare over a strip of desert in the Middle East because apparently God promised it to too many people.
I understand the point completely TBH I just don’t give a shit, find somewhere else to have the discourse, Petersons rescinded fellowship was bigger news. Honestly, this cancel culture crap is a passing cultural epoch
I am well versed in Petersons work thanks.
Your motivation on some issues is questionable as your bias sticks out, a lot, as does your affinity for Sam Harris who I am also well aware of.
The point I made stands, he isn’t being denied his book talk based on the school not wanting to give evolution air time it’s on the back of his strong opinions about Islam among other things.
The highlighted part is the nonsense Harris and Dawkins get lost in, what’s the solution then, because taking it away from some means taking it away from all when it’s a minority that’s gone all loon, the same loony crap can get whipped up from politics.
Harris’s belief that we can remove religious belief so people can be more rational and logical shows his lack of understanding of human nature.
I'm not talking about Peterson at all. How did that even come into it?

What bias do I have? I have a "bias" towards what is true about reality. That is all.

And I still think you're missing the point. I don't think Harris nor Dawkins believe they can "convert" every religious person on earth by talking about why religious belief is a bad thing. But FFS they should be allowed to talk about why religious belief is a bad thing. The aim is a secular democracy, not a theocracy. More than they should be allowed to talk about it, they should talk about it. Even if it doesn't convert everyone who hears it, it's still an important discussion that should be had on several levels.

Regarding human nature, well, the world is less religious now than it's even been. Sure, there are more religious people still, but in the places were freedom of speech and education are most highly valued, that gap is narrowing hugely. Who says it's "human nature" to believe in dark-aged magic stories? It's human nature to want to understand and explain the world around them. At one time, the best explanation was religion, because we were ignorant. And although religious texts, art and the like is very important from a cultural and historical perspective, the stories are no longer needed (Peterson is grasping at straws on that point and makes very little sense - you could apply all his arguments for the morals being grounded in religious stories to a Superman comic).
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by hermie »

Should To Kill A Mocking Bird be taught in schools?
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/to-kil ... =shortlink
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Harveys »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:53 am
Harveys wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:40 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:50 am All of you are missing the point, especially Harveys.

It's not about whether it hurts Dawkins or not. It's about cancelling academic discussion from being heard at places of higher learning and research. That is the part that is disgraceful. I'm sure Dawkins will be just fine. The students, I'm more worried about. What sort of f-cking University decides what the students should be exposed to based on whether it might hurt someone's feelings or not who believes in iron-aged magic? That is completely retarded. It is literally disgraceful.

What are we going to do next? Ban cosmologists from speaking because flat-earthers and astrologers might get offended?

It's not as if we're talking about anything that should be controversial here. At least not in sensible, rational, grown up discussion. He's an evolutionary biologist ffs. And what's he been silenced for anyway? There are young women activists in the Republic of Iran to this day being imprisoned and "disappearing" (I can only assume raped too) for the crime of speaking out about being mandatorily dressed from head to to toe in a black bag. Are we pretending that Islam (or any other religion, but perhaps especially Islam) is a shining light of sexual equality? That's absurd. To ban the world's most preeminent evolutionary biologist for speaking out against one of the obvious evils that results from religious belief is laa-laa land stuff.

Harveys wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:07 pm Mogs is having a cry as Dawkins falls in with his beloved Harris’s beliefs. It’s an opportunity to take a shot at anything vaguely religious in nature.

Seems to me that the people who set out to disprove myth, poetry, symbolism and analogy as literally untrue are as silly as the people who accept it as literally true.
I'm going to go easy on you here as you obviously don't know much about either of them or their views.

Firstly, Dawkins has been at this since the 70s, when Harris with still in daipers. He's not "falling in" with Harris.

Secondly, nobody is out to "disprove poetry". And myth is, by definition, accepted not to be true.

You're completely missing their point. They're not trying to rid the world of art, or even spirituality. You've also picked a pretty bad example in Harris if you think that, he also promotes spirituality and meditation, and in fact has built a widely used meditation app.

They both have slightly different agendas and motivations, but it comes down to telling the truth about the nature of reality and removing the influence of mythology from science and politics. You should read some of their work sometime, because you're really way off. Neither of them (nor anyone that I know about) wants to burn bibles, tear down churches, destroy symbology or poetry or anything even remotely close to that. What they don't want is students walking out of classrooms when the teachers starts to talk about evolution, or "equal time" being given to creation theory in science class, or militant religious zealots flying planes into buildings, or Presidents being elected based on their professed belief in magic, or continual warfare over a strip of desert in the Middle East because apparently God promised it to too many people.
I understand the point completely TBH I just don’t give a shit, find somewhere else to have the discourse, Petersons rescinded fellowship was bigger news. Honestly, this cancel culture crap is a passing cultural epoch
I am well versed in Petersons work thanks.
Your motivation on some issues is questionable as your bias sticks out, a lot, as does your affinity for Sam Harris who I am also well aware of.
The point I made stands, he isn’t being denied his book talk based on the school not wanting to give evolution air time it’s on the back of his strong opinions about Islam among other things.
The highlighted part is the nonsense Harris and Dawkins get lost in, what’s the solution then, because taking it away from some means taking it away from all when it’s a minority that’s gone all loon, the same loony crap can get whipped up from politics.
Harris’s belief that we can remove religious belief so people can be more rational and logical shows his lack of understanding of human nature.
I'm not talking about Peterson at all. How did that even come into it?

What bias do I have? I have a "bias" towards what is true about reality. That is all.

And I still think you're missing the point. I don't think Harris nor Dawkins believe they can "convert" every religious person on earth by talking about why religious belief is a bad thing. But FFS they should be allowed to talk about why religious belief is a bad thing. The aim is a secular democracy, not a theocracy. More than they should be allowed to talk about it, they should talk about it. Even if it doesn't convert everyone who hears it, it's still an important discussion that should be had on several levels.

Regarding human nature, well, the world is less religious now than it's even been. Sure, there are more religious people still, but in the places were freedom of speech and education are most highly valued, that gap is narrowing hugely. Who says it's "human nature" to believe in dark-aged magic stories? It's human nature to want to understand and explain the world around them. At one time, the best explanation was religion, because we were ignorant. And although religious texts, art and the like is very important from a cultural and historical perspective, the stories are no longer needed (Peterson is grasping at straws on that point and makes very little sense - you could apply all his arguments for the morals being grounded in religious stories to a Superman comic).

Your bias is expressed in the rest of your post and comes out as you acting like a self-righteous arse.
fudge Peterson, he’s in the conversation as he experienced a similar situation, but whatever I’m not advocating his beliefs.
With regard to “Is it human nature to believe in Dark Age magic stories” well yes it is to an extent, the stories change but they’re always there. Ideology is ideology, don’t be thinking just because the world is becoming more secular ideology is reducing, it just changes. I’m a big fan of Jung but I’m temperamentally inclined to be and that’s always going to be a problem in these conversations, pragmatic v romantic personality’s, we don’t all see things the same way.

I think your view that religion is grounded in ignorance is itself ignorant.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Harveys wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:20 pm Your bias is expressed in the rest of your post and comes out as you acting like a self-righteous arse.
fudge Peterson, he’s in the conversation as he experienced a similar situation, but whatever I’m not advocating his beliefs.
With regard to “Is it human nature to believe in Dark Age magic stories” well yes it is to an extent, the stories change but they’re always there. Ideology is ideology, don’t be thinking just because the world is becoming more secular ideology is reducing, it just changes. I’m a big fan of Jung but I’m temperamentally inclined to be and that’s always going to be a problem in these conversations, pragmatic v romantic personality’s, we don’t all see things the same way.

I think your view that religion is grounded in ignorance is itself ignorant.
You're just missing the point all over the place and creating strawmen. I don't have a bias, I think you have a bias. You don't want people speaking against religion. I suppose you have some religious leanings yourself.

Tell me how religion is not grounded in ignorance. I'm all ears. Religion was humanities way of explaining the universe around them when they didn't know any better. Thus it is grounded in ignorance.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by bimboman »

MungoMan wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:31 am
bimboman wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:29 am “I only want to debate with someone who’s ideas make me comfortable “:


Now there’s a useless useless organisation.
“will not be moving ahead with his address as we value our members comfort above all else”.
So: ramps, wide doors, a good selection of seating choices, sensible temperature control, ample shithouse facilities and decent tea and bickies. Sorted.


I was hoping for a bar..

However I reckon we could manage it.
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paddyor
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by paddyor »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:50 am All of you are missing the point, especially Harveys.

It's not about whether it hurts Dawkins or not. It's about cancelling academic discussion from being heard at places of higher learning and research. That is the part that is disgraceful. I'm sure Dawkins will be just fine. The students, I'm more worried about. What sort of f-cking University decides what the students should be exposed to based on whether it might hurt someone's feelings or not who believes in iron-aged magic? That is completely retarded. It is literally disgraceful.

What are we going to do next? Ban cosmologists from speaking because flat-earthers and astrologers might get offended?

It's not as if we're talking about anything that should be controversial here. At least not in sensible, rational, grown up discussion. He's an evolutionary biologist ffs. And what's he been silenced for anyway? There are young women activists in the Republic of Iran to this day being imprisoned and "disappearing" (I can only assume raped too) for the crime of speaking out about being mandatorily dressed from head to to toe in a black bag. Are we pretending that Islam (or any other religion, but perhaps especially Islam) is a shining light of sexual equality? That's absurd. To ban the world's most preeminent evolutionary biologist for speaking out against one of the obvious evils that results from religious belief is laa-laa land stuff.

Harveys wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:07 pm Mogs is having a cry as Dawkins falls in with his beloved Harris’s beliefs. It’s an opportunity to take a shot at anything vaguely religious in nature.

Seems to me that the people who set out to disprove myth, poetry, symbolism and analogy as literally untrue are as silly as the people who accept it as literally true.
I'm going to go easy on you here as you obviously don't know much about either of them or their views.

Firstly, Dawkins has been at this since the 70s, when Harris with still in daipers. He's not "falling in" with Harris.

Secondly, nobody is out to "disprove poetry". And myth is, by definition, accepted not to be true.

You're completely missing their point. They're not trying to rid the world of art, or even spirituality. You've also picked a pretty bad example in Harris if you think that, he also promotes spirituality and meditation, and in fact has built a widely used meditation app.

They both have slightly different agendas and motivations, but it comes down to telling the truth about the nature of reality and removing the influence of mythology from science and politics. You should read some of their work sometime, because you're really way off. Neither of them (nor anyone that I know about) wants to burn bibles, tear down churches, destroy symbology or poetry or anything even remotely close to that. What they don't want is students walking out of classrooms when the teachers starts to talk about evolution, or "equal time" being given to creation theory in science class, or militant religious zealots flying planes into buildings, or Presidents being elected based on their professed belief in magic, or continual warfare over a strip of desert in the Middle East because apparently God promised it to too many people.
Did the internet not happen? I'll say again I think they're pretty stupid but there's an element of Canute holding back the tide. I don't think banning these people from speaking will really make much of a difference. The bolded happened and what difference did it make? It was fairly undestood that the Earth was not Flat when Columbus set sail.

Point and laugh by all means but I don't think it's cause for despair.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

Harveys wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:40 am
I understand the point completely TBH I just don’t give a shit, find somewhere else to have the discourse, Petersons rescinded fellowship was bigger news. Honestly, this cancel culture crap is a passing cultural epoch
I am well versed in Petersons work thanks.
Your motivation on some issues is questionable as your bias sticks out, a lot, as does your affinity for Sam Harris who I am also well aware of.
The point I made stands, he isn’t being denied his book talk based on the school not wanting to give evolution air time it’s on the back of his strong opinions about Islam among other things.
The highlighted part is the nonsense Harris and Dawkins get lost in, what’s the solution then, because taking it away from some means taking it away from all when it’s a minority that’s gone all loon, the same loony crap can get whipped up from politics.
Harris’s belief that we can remove religious belief so people can be more rational and logical shows his lack of understanding of human nature.
I don't think Dawkins beliefs are particularly daft about Islam. It's not as if his anti-religious beliefs stem from any sort of hatred of Islam like you imply seeing as he took on Christianity for decades before really going after Islam and other religions with the same zest. No one was banning him for his hugely aggressive and strong opinions about Christianity and it's believers. It's telling people turn on him and take issue when he applies the same to Islam as if he's actually got some racist motivations. Likewise Mog has posted enough many against other religions to suggest a a lack of specific agenda there.

As for the idea humans can be more rational, I don't know if you noticed but humans have become more rational and logical over time as history shows. Not all but it's been the general trend overall.
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The point I made stands, he isn’t being denied his book talk based on the school not wanting to give evolution air time it’s on the back of his strong opinions about Islam among other things.

And we can’t have these types of opinions.....
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Post by Mog The Almighty »

bimboman wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:23 pm
The point I made stands, he isn’t being denied his book talk based on the school not wanting to give evolution air time it’s on the back of his strong opinions about Islam among other things.

And we can’t have these types of opinions.....
Hit the nail on the head there.

Is he not allowed "strong opinions" on Islam? Apparently not. That's the problem.

It's not as if he's a Neo-Nazi romper-stomper ffs. He's a 79 year old evolutionary biologist, academic and public intellectual who has been writing about these topics--mainly concerned with Christianity and creationism vs evolution--without much fuss since the 1970s.

Islam, however, that's out of bounds.
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Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:35 pm
bimboman wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:23 pm
The point I made stands, he isn’t being denied his book talk based on the school not wanting to give evolution air time it’s on the back of his strong opinions about Islam among other things.

And we can’t have these types of opinions.....
Hit the nail on the head there.

Is he not allowed "strong opinions" on Islam? Apparently not. That's the problem.

It's not as if he's a Neo-Nazi romper-stomper ffs. He's a 79 year old evolutionary biologist, academic and public intellectual who has been writing about these topics--mainly concerned with Christianity and creationism vs evolution--without much fuss since the 1970s.

Islam, however, that's out of bounds.


Agreed.

It’s not a good policy in the long run.
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Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:30 pm
Harveys wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:20 pm Your bias is expressed in the rest of your post and comes out as you acting like a self-righteous arse.
fudge Peterson, he’s in the conversation as he experienced a similar situation, but whatever I’m not advocating his beliefs.
With regard to “Is it human nature to believe in Dark Age magic stories” well yes it is to an extent, the stories change but they’re always there. Ideology is ideology, don’t be thinking just because the world is becoming more secular ideology is reducing, it just changes. I’m a big fan of Jung but I’m temperamentally inclined to be and that’s always going to be a problem in these conversations, pragmatic v romantic personality’s, we don’t all see things the same way.

I think your view that religion is grounded in ignorance is itself ignorant.
You're just missing the point all over the place and creating strawmen. I don't have a bias, I think you have a bias. You don't want people speaking against religion. I suppose you have some religious leanings yourself.

Tell me how religion is not grounded in ignorance. I'm all ears. Religion was humanities way of explaining the universe around them when they didn't know any better. Thus it is grounded in ignorance.
By this logic phyics and even philospohy are grounded in ignorance? I'm not religious btw.

It's about more than just trying to explain the universe.
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bimboman wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:23 pm
The point I made stands, he isn’t being denied his book talk based on the school not wanting to give evolution air time it’s on the back of his strong opinions about Islam among other things.

And we can’t have these types of opinions.....
Unless you write in the British broadhseets?
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Mog The Almighty »

paddyor wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:16 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:30 pm
Harveys wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:20 pm Your bias is expressed in the rest of your post and comes out as you acting like a self-righteous arse.
fudge Peterson, he’s in the conversation as he experienced a similar situation, but whatever I’m not advocating his beliefs.
With regard to “Is it human nature to believe in Dark Age magic stories” well yes it is to an extent, the stories change but they’re always there. Ideology is ideology, don’t be thinking just because the world is becoming more secular ideology is reducing, it just changes. I’m a big fan of Jung but I’m temperamentally inclined to be and that’s always going to be a problem in these conversations, pragmatic v romantic personality’s, we don’t all see things the same way.

I think your view that religion is grounded in ignorance is itself ignorant.
You're just missing the point all over the place and creating strawmen. I don't have a bias, I think you have a bias. You don't want people speaking against religion. I suppose you have some religious leanings yourself.

Tell me how religion is not grounded in ignorance. I'm all ears. Religion was humanities way of explaining the universe around them when they didn't know any better. Thus it is grounded in ignorance.
By this logic phyics and even philospohy are grounded in ignorance? I'm not religious btw.

It's about more than just trying to explain the universe.
What? :lol: You think physics is on roughly the same grounding as religion?

And philosophy is a poor comparison. Philosophy isn't making objective claims about what is true about reality and the cosmos.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Santa »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:40 am
paddyor wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:16 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:30 pm
Harveys wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:20 pm Your bias is expressed in the rest of your post and comes out as you acting like a self-righteous arse.
fudge Peterson, he’s in the conversation as he experienced a similar situation, but whatever I’m not advocating his beliefs.
With regard to “Is it human nature to believe in Dark Age magic stories” well yes it is to an extent, the stories change but they’re always there. Ideology is ideology, don’t be thinking just because the world is becoming more secular ideology is reducing, it just changes. I’m a big fan of Jung but I’m temperamentally inclined to be and that’s always going to be a problem in these conversations, pragmatic v romantic personality’s, we don’t all see things the same way.

I think your view that religion is grounded in ignorance is itself ignorant.
You're just missing the point all over the place and creating strawmen. I don't have a bias, I think you have a bias. You don't want people speaking against religion. I suppose you have some religious leanings yourself.

Tell me how religion is not grounded in ignorance. I'm all ears. Religion was humanities way of explaining the universe around them when they didn't know any better. Thus it is grounded in ignorance.
By this logic phyics and even philospohy are grounded in ignorance? I'm not religious btw.

It's about more than just trying to explain the universe.
What? :lol: You think physics is on roughly the same grounding as religion?

And philosophy is a poor comparison. Philosophy isn't making objective claims about what is true about reality and the cosmos.
You what bruv?
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It's demonstrably not. Name one objectively proven fact that philosophy has discovered about the nature of reality or the cosmos. Philosophy is about questioning and critical thinking. Science is about proving hypothesis by way of repeatable and predictable experimentation. I do think philosophy is important and interesting, but it's not trespassing overtly on the grounds of science in the way that religion does.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by bimboman »

paddyor wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:17 pm
bimboman wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:23 pm
The point I made stands, he isn’t being denied his book talk based on the school not wanting to give evolution air time it’s on the back of his strong opinions about Islam among other things.

And we can’t have these types of opinions.....
Unless you write in the British broadhseets?

Nothing in your home country?
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Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:47 am It's demonstrably not. Name one objectively proven fact that philosophy has discovered about the nature of reality or the cosmos. Philosophy is about questioning and critical thinking. Science is about proving hypothesis by way of repeatable and predictable experimentation. I do think philosophy is important and interesting, but it's not trespassing overtly on the grounds of science in the way that religion does.
Zenos infinity paradox?

AFAIK greek philosphy was very concerned with testing and proving hypothesis.
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Post by Santa »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:47 am It's demonstrably not. Name one objectively proven fact that philosophy has discovered about the nature of reality or the cosmos. Philosophy is about questioning and critical thinking. Science is about proving hypothesis by way of repeatable and predictable experimentation. I do think philosophy is important and interesting, but it's not trespassing overtly on the grounds of science in the way that religion does.
The notion of objective truth is a philosophical one, as is the insight that in order for something to be objectively true it must be so independent of subjective perception or experience. Scientific objectivity is the child of philosophical objectivity; while they are not precisely the same scientific objectivity would not have been possible without the prior philosophical objectivity. It is objectively true that the scientific method is the best way we have developed to produce some forms of knowledge. Philosophy discovered that objective truth.
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I think the conversation is getting a bit side-tracked here. We could go deep into arguments about the nature of philosophy but it's kind of missing the original point. That is the suggestion that religion is somehow akin to philosophy and any argument that we don't need religion is akin to claiming we don't need philosophy or--even more oddly-physics.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

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Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:26 pm I think the conversation is getting a bit side-tracked here. We could go deep into arguments about the nature of philosophy but it's kind of missing the original point. That is the suggestion that religion is somehow akin to philosophy and any argument that we don't need religion is akin to claiming we don't need philosophy or--even more oddly-physics.
All of human history contains religion. As a human, I come from that history.

To look down your nose at religion is to look down your nose at being human. It's a tendency that smug morons indulge in.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:32 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:26 pm I think the conversation is getting a bit side-tracked here. We could go deep into arguments about the nature of philosophy but it's kind of missing the original point. That is the suggestion that religion is somehow akin to philosophy and any argument that we don't need religion is akin to claiming we don't need philosophy or--even more oddly-physics.
All of human history contains religion. As a human, I come from that history.

To look down your nose at religion is to look down your nose at being human. It's a tendency that smug morons indulge in.
:lol: oh ffs. That barely makes any sense. And rest assured, the smuggest morons you will find are religious.

All of human history contains accidentally stepping in animal shit. As a human, I come from history. To look down your nose at accidentally stepping in animal shit it to look down your nose at being human.

To be clear, I don't "look down my nose" at religion. I recognize it's historical significance and that it is part of human history. I just don't think we need to actually believe that it's true anymore. No more than we need to believe any other religion (but our own) is true, or to believe Zeus and Thor are true. In fact, I think believing such things is is typically something that only smug morons indulge in. Especially if they then go around telling everyone else how to live, because y'know, "they know".
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Post by Sonny Blount »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:59 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:32 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:26 pm I think the conversation is getting a bit side-tracked here. We could go deep into arguments about the nature of philosophy but it's kind of missing the original point. That is the suggestion that religion is somehow akin to philosophy and any argument that we don't need religion is akin to claiming we don't need philosophy or--even more oddly-physics.
All of human history contains religion. As a human, I come from that history.

To look down your nose at religion is to look down your nose at being human. It's a tendency that smug morons indulge in.
:lol: oh ffs. That barely makes any sense. And rest assured, the smuggest morons you will find are religious.
bigotry.
All of human history contains accidentally stepping in animal shit. As a human, I come from history. To look down your nose at accidentally stepping in animal shit it to look down your nose at being human.

To be clear, I don't "look down my nose" at religion. I recognize it's historical significance and that it is part of human history. I just don't think we need to actually believe that it's true anymore. No more than we need to believe any other religion (but our own) is true, or to believe Zeus and Thor are true. In fact, I think believing such things is is typically something that only smug morons indulge in. Especially if they then go around telling everyone else how to live, because y'know, "they know".
thats you Mog.

You can't avoid being religious, because you don't actually know very much at all. Most of your choices are based on belief.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:54 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:59 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:32 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:26 pm I think the conversation is getting a bit side-tracked here. We could go deep into arguments about the nature of philosophy but it's kind of missing the original point. That is the suggestion that religion is somehow akin to philosophy and any argument that we don't need religion is akin to claiming we don't need philosophy or--even more oddly-physics.
All of human history contains religion. As a human, I come from that history.

To look down your nose at religion is to look down your nose at being human. It's a tendency that smug morons indulge in.
:lol: oh ffs. That barely makes any sense. And rest assured, the smuggest morons you will find are religious.
bigotry.
You do realise that I was paraphrasing yourself in jest, right?

Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:54 am thats you Mog.

You can't avoid being religious, because you don't actually know very much at all. Most of your choices are based on belief.
Yeah, substantiated belief. You seem to be under the false impression that believing in science backed by evidence is equal to believing in stories backed by nothing (and actually disproven by evidence). It's not the same thing.

And no, that's not me. I don't "tell" anybody how to live. Unlike religious leaders at the pulpit.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

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This is a Culture Wars Mega Thread not another thread about religion. There are already 50 of those for your disquisitive delectation. Please f.uck off.
Last edited by Santa on Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Sonny Blount »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:19 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:54 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:59 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:32 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:26 pm I think the conversation is getting a bit side-tracked here. We could go deep into arguments about the nature of philosophy but it's kind of missing the original point. That is the suggestion that religion is somehow akin to philosophy and any argument that we don't need religion is akin to claiming we don't need philosophy or--even more oddly-physics.
All of human history contains religion. As a human, I come from that history.

To look down your nose at religion is to look down your nose at being human. It's a tendency that smug morons indulge in.
:lol: oh ffs. That barely makes any sense. And rest assured, the smuggest morons you will find are religious.
bigotry.
You do realise that I was paraphrasing yourself in jest, right?

Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:54 am thats you Mog.

You can't avoid being religious, because you don't actually know very much at all. Most of your choices are based on belief.
Yeah, substantiated belief. You seem to be under the false impression that believing in science backed by evidence is equal to believing in stories backed by nothing (and actually disproven by evidence). It's not the same thing.

And no, that's not me. I don't "tell" anybody how to live. Unlike religious leaders at the pulpit.
No, you don't live in science. You live in belief. We are all quacks.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Santa wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:24 am This is a Culture Wars Mega Thread not another thread about religion. There are already 50 of those for your disquisitive delectation. Please f.uck off.
I think it's all related tbf.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Santa »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:41 am
Santa wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:24 am This is a Culture Wars Mega Thread not another thread about religion. There are already 50 of those for your disquisitive delectation. Please f.uck off.
I think it's all related tbf.
It's not.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Santa wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:46 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:41 am
Santa wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:24 am This is a Culture Wars Mega Thread not another thread about religion. There are already 50 of those for your disquisitive delectation. Please f.uck off.
I think it's all related tbf.
It's not.
Well, I disagree. So you will have to suck my left nut. Thanks for your input however.
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Post by Harveys »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:30 pm
Harveys wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:20 pm Your bias is expressed in the rest of your post and comes out as you acting like a self-righteous arse.
fudge Peterson, he’s in the conversation as he experienced a similar situation, but whatever I’m not advocating his beliefs.
With regard to “Is it human nature to believe in Dark Age magic stories” well yes it is to an extent, the stories change but they’re always there. Ideology is ideology, don’t be thinking just because the world is becoming more secular ideology is reducing, it just changes. I’m a big fan of Jung but I’m temperamentally inclined to be and that’s always going to be a problem in these conversations, pragmatic v romantic personality’s, we don’t all see things the same way.

I think your view that religion is grounded in ignorance is itself ignorant.
You're just missing the point all over the place and creating strawmen. I don't have a bias, I think you have a bias. You don't want people speaking against religion. I suppose you have some religious leanings yourself.

Tell me how religion is not grounded in ignorance. I'm all ears. Religion was humanities way of explaining the universe around them when they didn't know any better. Thus it is grounded in ignorance.
Nonsense, I have no religious learnings, schooling or membership and identify as atheist. That’s not to say I disregard all spiritual practice or concepts, far from it.
You honestly believe religions only served to explain the world when we didn’t know any better? That’s quite a limited but convenient view.
We now have secular “woke” religion. Somethings needed to fill the void and as far as ideology goes its flavour of the month.
I’m not defending religion, it deserves its criticism but so does the other end of the stick.
Ignorance is taking metaphor, analogy and myth as literal truth, sure, but so is setting out to disprove it.
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Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:41 am
Santa wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:24 am This is a Culture Wars Mega Thread not another thread about religion. There are already 50 of those for your disquisitive delectation. Please f.uck off.
I think it's all related tbf.
There are your godly broflakes and your godless broflakes.
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