The Culture Wars Mega Thread

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fatcat
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by fatcat »

Talking of witches, spells and shite - I saw this terrific piece on the Beeb. It's very important stuff.
Is it still OK to read Harry Potter?

The Harry Potter books have sold over 500 million copies worldwide and made J. K. Rowling a celebrity in her own right. Aja Romano has been a fan of both for over 20 years. Romano is a writer for the American website Vox, where they specialise in internet culture and fandom. As well as giving Romano countless hours of entertainment, the wizarding world books helped them to explore and express different parts of their gender and sexual identity. But after J.K. Rowling expressed thoughts on gender identity that they vehemently disagreed with, Romano wondered if they could continue their love for the series.

In Can I Still Read Harry Potter? Romano considers whether it’s possible to separate the author from their work.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articl ... rry-potter
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4071
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by 4071 »

fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:32 pm Talking of witches, spells and shite - I saw this terrific piece on the Beeb. It's very important stuff.
Is it still OK to read Harry Potter?

The Harry Potter books have sold over 500 million copies worldwide and made J. K. Rowling a celebrity in her own right. Aja Romano has been a fan of both for over 20 years. Romano is a writer for the American website Vox, where they specialise in internet culture and fandom. As well as giving Romano countless hours of entertainment, the wizarding world books helped them to explore and express different parts of their gender and sexual identity. But after J.K. Rowling expressed thoughts on gender identity that they vehemently disagreed with, Romano wondered if they could continue their love for the series.

In Can I Still Read Harry Potter? Romano considers whether it’s possible to separate the author from their work.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articl ... rry-potter
What's your problem with it? That you personally don't care about questions of the relationship between reader, author and art so no one should?

This is the culture war thread. A culture is built through the creation of art, literature, history, etc, and the propagation of ideas that are similarly preserved through the medium of authorship. So the question of how people how people engage with the products of culture (which go on to further define culture) and how that is impacted by their relationship with the producers of those products is potentially quite important. And the fact that people have different perspectives on cultural products based on their perception of the producers of that culture is at the heart of a lot of the culture war.

I mean, that's at the heart of the debate about statues. When deciding what history to tell and what to honour, to what extent do we also implicitly honour individual characters and characteristics that many think should no longer be part of our culture?

Sure, YOU may not find those explorations worthwhile for whatever reason, but it does not mean that it is not interesting to others.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

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So apparently there's something of a controversy back in the UK over a Sainsbury's ad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqtcpLywgRU


It's mawkish and mediocre, but that's not the controversy. It appears that featuring a black family in one of the ads in their series has triggered a backlash.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/17/sainsbur ... -13606542/

It appears that a certain section of the British population don't want to see black families on TV. Though they probably prefer to express their racism in different ways. Probably claiming that they don't want to have woke multiculturalism forced on them, or something. And using the language of the culture war.

Inevitably, in this 'culture war' there are those on one side who feel that British culture is White culture, and showing the full diversity of Britain is pandering to the minorities who may live in the UK, may have been born in the UK, may go back generations in the UK, but aren't REALLY British. Wrong colour, you see.



And yes, these are the extreme end of the anti-woke culture warriors. Just like the examples of the extreme end of the woke culture warriors that come up on this thread all the time.

But it's worth bearing in mind which kind of people you accidentally align with when you exclusively attack the extremes on one side and don't look out for the other.
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fatcat
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

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4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:09 pm So apparently there's something of a controversy back in the UK over a Sainsbury's ad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqtcpLywgRU
Something of a controversy meaning a few dipsticks on Twitter commenting on it? Perhaps they're only semi serious and attempting to play 'the other side' at their own game.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by ukjim »

fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:20 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:09 pm So apparently there's something of a controversy back in the UK over a Sainsbury's ad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqtcpLywgRU
Something of a controversy meaning a few dipsticks on Twitter commenting on it? Perhaps they're only semi serious and attempting to play 'the other side' at their own game.
Or maybe just maybe they are racist cünts?

#occamsrazor
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

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Possibly, ukjim, although it's always good to see actual evidence of racism before calling something racism, as unpopular as that is these days.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:09 pm So apparently there's something of a controversy back in the UK over a Sainsbury's ad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqtcpLywgRU


It's mawkish and mediocre, but that's not the controversy. It appears that featuring a black family in one of the ads in their series has triggered a backlash.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/17/sainsbur ... -13606542/

It appears that a certain section of the British population don't want to see black families on TV. Though they probably prefer to express their racism in different ways. Probably claiming that they don't want to have woke multiculturalism forced on them, or something. And using the language of the culture war.

Inevitably, in this 'culture war' there are those on one side who feel that British culture is White culture, and showing the full diversity of Britain is pandering to the minorities who may live in the UK, may have been born in the UK, may go back generations in the UK, but aren't REALLY British. Wrong colour, you see.



And yes, these are the extreme end of the anti-woke culture warriors. Just like the examples of the extreme end of the woke culture warriors that come up on this thread all the time.

But it's worth bearing in mind which kind of people you accidentally align with when you exclusively attack the extremes on one side and don't look out for the other.
I don't think this is accurate. You'll find many ethnic minorities who also resent these virtue signalling. Likewise your entire point is based upon claiming you know how all these complainers think. Which is sadly the state of racism and why it's constantly disputed. More people oppose any perception of "positive discrimination" which in itself is discriminatory. People desire fairness and fairness of opportunity.

The complaints are largely due to mistrust in the media and woke culture. Black people have been featured in ads for decades, plenty of celebrated John Lewis Crimbo ones without complaint for years. However this decade there has objectively been a purposely push of the false narrative narrative of what racism is, white people are broadly racist regardless of them, well being racist or not, minorities must been pushed upwards regardless of the complete reasons.

You only have to see those research papers that point to the growth of woke culture this decade and the surge in the media using terms like racism and other words, usually accusing people's motivate of being racist where nothing was said exponentially increasing around 8 years ago. Often by, or too, audiences of mostly of white, liberal metropolitan middle class liberals. Alll at a time where racism is at a historic low and each generation is clearly less racist and society more integrated than before in the west. Even the BBC have put targets to push minorities up artificially to meet targets rather than offering fair entry.

It happened for a variety of reasons, the adoption of looking at groups instead of individual actions in the media. A purposeful adoption of corporate politics where corporations profit off diversity narratives (virtue signalling) while they influence governments to keep pushing a neo-liberal agenda to keep them rich at the expense of all poor and disadvantaged peoples.

Naturally because the narrative has been pushed, it creates a backlash and a equal and oppose response. Which then starts feeding itself vis clicks, social media and the like. What else can you expect when you demonise anyone who doesn't fit the view point. The tragic thing is, now the dickheads are as bad as the woke brigade and liek how the woke will see racism everywhere, their opposites will see any minority presence as the establishment media forcing diversity. Even if it is not.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by 4071 »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:28 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:09 pm So apparently there's something of a controversy back in the UK over a Sainsbury's ad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqtcpLywgRU


It's mawkish and mediocre, but that's not the controversy. It appears that featuring a black family in one of the ads in their series has triggered a backlash.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/17/sainsbur ... -13606542/

It appears that a certain section of the British population don't want to see black families on TV. Though they probably prefer to express their racism in different ways. Probably claiming that they don't want to have woke multiculturalism forced on them, or something. And using the language of the culture war.

Inevitably, in this 'culture war' there are those on one side who feel that British culture is White culture, and showing the full diversity of Britain is pandering to the minorities who may live in the UK, may have been born in the UK, may go back generations in the UK, but aren't REALLY British. Wrong colour, you see.



And yes, these are the extreme end of the anti-woke culture warriors. Just like the examples of the extreme end of the woke culture warriors that come up on this thread all the time.

But it's worth bearing in mind which kind of people you accidentally align with when you exclusively attack the extremes on one side and don't look out for the other.
I don't think this is accurate. You'll find many ethnic minorities who also resent these virtue signalling. Likewise your entire point is based upon claiming you know how all these complainers think. Which is sadly the state of racism and why it's constantly disputed. More people oppose any perception of "positive discrimination" which in itself is discriminatory. People desire fairness and fairness of opportunity.

The complaints are largely due to mistrust in the media and woke culture. Black people have been featured in ads for decades, plenty of celebrated John Lewis Crimbo ones without complaint for years. However this decade there has objectively been a purposely push of the false narrative narrative of what racism is, white people are broadly racist regardless of them, well being racist or not, minorities must been pushed upwards regardless of the complete reasons.

You only have to see those research papers that point to the growth of woke culture this decade and the surge in the media using terms like racism and other words, usually accusing people's motivate of being racist where nothing was said exponentially increasing around 8 years ago. Often by, or too, audiences of mostly of white, liberal metropolitan middle class liberals. Alll at a time where racism is at a historic low and each generation is clearly less racist and society more integrated than before in the west. Even the BBC have put targets to push minorities up artificially to meet targets rather than offering fair entry.

It happened for a variety of reasons, the adoption of looking at groups instead of individual actions in the media. A purposeful adoption of corporate politics where corporations profit off diversity narratives (virtue signalling) while they influence governments to keep pushing a neo-liberal agenda to keep them rich at the expense of all poor and disadvantaged peoples.

Naturally because the narrative has been pushed, it creates a backlash and a equal and oppose response. Which then starts feeding itself vis clicks, social media and the like. What else can you expect when you demonise anyone who doesn't fit the view point. The tragic thing is, now the dickheads are as bad as the woke brigade and liek how the woke will see racism everywhere, their opposites will see any minority presence as the establishment media forcing diversity. Even if it is not.
Different perspectives, I guess.

But at what point does a backlash against woke culture become indistinguishable (in its outcomes) from racism?

Sainsbury's broadcast an advert featuring a black family. That is all.

The response has been calls to boycott the company.

Among the responses were:

You may as well rename yourself Blackbury’s
Where are the British people?
You’ve managed to completely alienate the few remaining White customers you still had
Never shopping in Sainsbury's again
I see white people have been well represented in this ad! Imagine a complete white family, imagine the uproar (narrator: There was no uproar over the all white families)
Absolutely sickening
In a white country? I'm sure in Africa they do a white version! LOL
Isn't the UK supposed to be able diversity and inclusion? Don't see any of that here.
Disgraceful Disgusting Shocking
What would Africans do without Sainsburys?


That's just a selection.

Now assuming that you are correct, and that all of these responses are simply a backlash against woke culture. How are they in any way distinguishable from responses motivated by racism?

Maybe I'm wrong - maybe it's not racist to imply that black people aren't British, to be disgusted by seeing ads with black people in them and to boycott companies that portray black people in ads. But if it's not racist, it's doing a f**king good job of looking like it.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by 4071 »

fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:25 pm Possibly, ukjim, although it's always good to see actual evidence of racism before calling something racism, as unpopular as that is these days.
As I replied to Eldan
maybe it's not racist to imply that black people aren't British, to be disgusted by seeing ads with black people in them and to boycott companies that portray black people in ads. But if it's not racist, it's doing a f**king good job of looking like it.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

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4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:53 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:25 pm Possibly, ukjim, although it's always good to see actual evidence of racism before calling something racism, as unpopular as that is these days.
As I replied to Eldan
maybe it's not racist to imply that black people aren't British, to be disgusted by seeing ads with black people in them and to boycott companies that portray black people in ads. But if it's not racist, it's doing a f**king good job of looking like it.


“I explained to the black man just how wrong he was in his view about racism”
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by ChipSpike »

Maybe instead of virtue signaling, Sainsbury's should get a black person on their board.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by bimboman »

ChipSpike wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:02 pm Maybe instead of virtue signaling, Sainsbury's should get a black person on their board.


Or not pay the rates relief out as a dividend.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by 4071 »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:57 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:53 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:25 pm Possibly, ukjim, although it's always good to see actual evidence of racism before calling something racism, as unpopular as that is these days.
As I replied to Eldan
maybe it's not racist to imply that black people aren't British, to be disgusted by seeing ads with black people in them and to boycott companies that portray black people in ads. But if it's not racist, it's doing a f**king good job of looking like it.


“I explained to the black man just how wrong he was in his view about racism”
I'll say this for you, Bimbo; you never let incomprehension act as an obstacle to participation. Well done you.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

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4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:47 pm
Different perspectives, I guess.

But at what point does a backlash against woke culture become indistinguishable (in its outcomes) from racism?

Sainsbury's broadcast an advert featuring a black family. That is all.

But that isn't all. As I said, when black families were featured, there weren't these complaints



The response has been calls to boycott the company.

Among the responses were:

You may as well rename yourself Blackbury’s
Where are the British people?
You’ve managed to completely alienate the few remaining White customers you still had
Never shopping in Sainsbury's again
I see white people have been well represented in this ad! Imagine a complete white family, imagine the uproar (narrator: There was no uproar over the all white families)
Absolutely sickening
In a white country? I'm sure in Africa they do a white version! LOL
Isn't the UK supposed to be able diversity and inclusion? Don't see any of that here.
Disgraceful Disgusting Shocking
What would Africans do without Sainsburys?


That's just a selection.

Now assuming that you are correct, and that all of these responses are simply a backlash against woke culture. How are they in any way distinguishable from responses motivated by racism?
The assumption here is woke culture is anti-racist and therefore opposing it is siding with racists. Much of it isn't and it is almost never used that way. People will complain at discrimination, or perceptions of discrimination projected against them or active in their lives. Likewise you seem to indicate "how can you tell it's not motivated by racism". You can't, I won't claim very comment in the backlash isn't from racists. The majority, even the most on the nose ones are clearly framed as criticism in picking the family out for their colour. Picking out a few racists doesn't represent the general feeling about it accurately. Saying like it's all a racist reaction only compounds the reaction to those who aren't racist but are frustrated by what they see as toxic behaviour in these things.




Maybe I'm wrong - maybe it's not racist to imply that black people aren't British, to be disgusted by seeing ads with black people in them and to boycott companies that portray black people in ads. But if it's not racist, it's doing a f**king good job of looking like it.
You infer that, but no implication that black people aren't british is made in most comments. That isn't to say there isn't a small minority which do cross the line. Just like in discussions using terms like Gammon, 'white, pale and stale, male' etc would be deemed shocking if their direct opposite was used. The fact these terms are acceptable despite being clearly racist terms to white people is what then pushes people to react in the opposite fashion. I notice you never drop down against those terms. You can't expect millions of people to keep hearing this in the wider media and social media and see it passes as acceptable (it shouldn't be) but not any balance in terms that go the other way (which is as it should be for racists terms to any race). It's the sort of thinking that has allowed crooked perceptions, why anti-semitism flourishes in places who are supposed to be strong holds against racism think some discrimination is fine ,so Jews, are often perceived as white and even rich, their negative stereotypes are seen as perfectly fair game.

There is then the point is it is believed companies are using 'diversity' to wipe out British culture or suppress any perception "white culture" (as opposed to black culture/asian culture) needs to be suppressed. There is truth to this, we hear it come out or reported frequently and see it. Companies are doing this. That doesn't mean it's been done here. That doesn't mean the majority of the criticism should be called racism. Both arguments in this particular case requires mind reading. This is my position, I assume no malice, but I understand why malice, especially where comments stem from some truths as it has been assumed because it is happening elsewhere as the rise in criticisms is clearly occurring with a rise in corporate, media and political woke culture.

Krystal Ball explains it really well in her analysis of why woke culture polarised and creates a response when the vote on Affirmative action failed again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxo2SfgbC3U
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

ChipSpike wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:02 pm Maybe instead of virtue signaling, Sainsbury's should get a black person on their board.
And do it the right way, but evaluating achievements, not going by old networks which exclude many and encouraging talent to come to the company while having programs which improve the opportunities of the excluded.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:57 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:53 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:25 pm Possibly, ukjim, although it's always good to see actual evidence of racism before calling something racism, as unpopular as that is these days.
As I replied to Eldan
maybe it's not racist to imply that black people aren't British, to be disgusted by seeing ads with black people in them and to boycott companies that portray black people in ads. But if it's not racist, it's doing a f**king good job of looking like it.


“I explained to the black man just how wrong he was in his view about racism”
Which supportive of me, I think this quote is misplaced. It does apply if we are talkingt o my personal experience of what racism is like. But that doesn't mean a debate about racism elsewhere can't be had, unless the other person shows some ignorance of the facts and experiences.

A good example is that criticism of Islamic headwear in women is misogynistic or oppressive or just wrong. Some might claim these criticisms is Islamophobia. There aren't. But that doesn't mean if a Muslim claimed it is Islamophobia or racist to claim the Burqa is wrong or oppressive. And I'm sure you'd be miffed if it was made that way.

My argument with 4071 is woke culture itself is bigoted and you can see why victims of that bigotry will lash out, especially in frustration as it seems certain discriminatory viewpoints are being allowed by our media, corporate and technological powers. And also people's assumptions that assume racism when none is actually said on both sides does not mean racism has occured.
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Post by bimboman »

Yeah eldan , I know.

The whole ludicrous situation though is being told what should and shouldn’t upset people being dictated by what “group” you’ve been placed in.

What’s worse is when the person choosing the group has no life experiance
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by 4071 »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:15 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:47 pm
Different perspectives, I guess.

But at what point does a backlash against woke culture become indistinguishable (in its outcomes) from racism?

Sainsbury's broadcast an advert featuring a black family. That is all.
But that isn't all. As I said, when black families were featured, there weren't these complaints
No, there weren't. And the fact that it is now an issue should be worrying. But that IS all they did. They put out three ads. Two featuring white families and one featuring a black family. In none of them was race made an issue or mentioned.

One of the three ads received a backlash and calls for boycotts.


Let's just assume that the majority of complaints and criticisms aren't from explicitly racist people, and they are simply lashing back against woke culture and the pandering over-representation of minorities. Given that this was one ad in a series of three, and the only one to feature a non-white family, exactly how little representation IS acceptable to these theoretically non-racist people?

Is ANY representation now unacceptable?

And is that any different a stance than that taken by outright racists who simply don't see black people as part of British culture and don't want them portrayed as 'normal Brits' on TV?
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4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:53 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:25 pm Possibly, ukjim, although it's always good to see actual evidence of racism before calling something racism, as unpopular as that is these days.
As I replied to Eldan
maybe it's not racist to imply that black people aren't British, to be disgusted by seeing ads with black people in them and to boycott companies that portray black people in ads. But if it's not racist, it's doing a f**king good job of looking like it.
As I said, possibly, but without evidence I'm not going to call anything I read in your Metro link racism.
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Post by 4071 »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:34 pm
My argument with 4071 is woke culture itself is bigoted and you can see why victims of that bigotry will lash out, especially in frustration as it seems certain discriminatory viewpoints are being allowed by our media, corporate and technological powers. And also people's assumptions that assume racism when none is actually said on both sides does not mean racism has occured.
You know, I can kinda see your thinking here.

The backlash against something will - almost by default - focus on that thing and can appear to have similar characteristics.

You say here that woke culture is bigoted and imply a bigotry around race, which means that any response against that will inevitably have the same focus and can appear to have the characteristics of that which it is opposing.


You could imagine that woke culture is exactly a manifestation of this phenomenon. Say, anti-racism emerges in opposition to racism and in doing so inevitably focuses on race, which can make it appear that that anti-racism is indistinguishable from racism.

This would explain why so many on the right accuse BLM of being racist - it is not simply embarrassed projection, but instead they sincerely believe it is racist because from their perspective this anti-racist movement focuses on race, which is what racists do.


However, whilst you can excuse racist-seeming behaviour (getting angry at seeing black peopple on TV) because it is simply a backlash against actual racist behaviour (the bigoted woke agenda), how come you can't see that woke culture is racist-seeming (to you) because it in itself is a response to actual (and undeniable) racism.

Which came first - racism or wokeness?
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Post by 4071 »

fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:58 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:53 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:25 pm Possibly, ukjim, although it's always good to see actual evidence of racism before calling something racism, as unpopular as that is these days.
As I replied to Eldan
maybe it's not racist to imply that black people aren't British, to be disgusted by seeing ads with black people in them and to boycott companies that portray black people in ads. But if it's not racist, it's doing a f**king good job of looking like it.
As I said, possibly, but without evidence I'm not going to call anything I read in your Metro link racism.
As you can never truly know someone's motivations, I do wonder what it would take for you to think anything that anyone says or does is racist?

Ad absurdum: There is no proof that Hitler was racist - he just said and did those things in order to motivate a part of the German people to support him and keep him in power.
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Post by fatcat »

As you can never truly know someone's motivations, I do wonder what it would take for you to think anything that anyone says or does is racist?
Evidence of racism. Neither of us know their motivations - you assume they're racist, without being able to identify specific racism, while I'm not willing to.
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Post by eldanielfire »

4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:47 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:15 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:47 pm
Different perspectives, I guess.

But at what point does a backlash against woke culture become indistinguishable (in its outcomes) from racism?

Sainsbury's broadcast an advert featuring a black family. That is all.
But that isn't all. As I said, when black families were featured, there weren't these complaints
No, there weren't. And the fact that it is now an issue should be worrying. But that IS all they did. They put out three ads. Two featuring white families and one featuring a black family. In none of them was race made an issue or mentioned.

One of the three ads received a backlash and calls for boycotts.
That sentence got weirdly cut off. Must have deleted by accident. I was speaking about in the past, prior to woke culture. Black families have been inadverts for years. It isn't new. The complaints like this are and are done on the basis people think it's not been done fairly.
Let's just assume that the majority of complaints and criticisms aren't from explicitly racist people, and they are simply lashing back against woke culture and the pandering over-representation of minorities. Given that this was one ad in a series of three, and the only one to feature a non-white family, exactly how little representation IS acceptable to these theoretically non-racist people?
Let's not assume. You want to accuse people of racism, provide proof. Stop assuming you can read minds. There isn't actually too little representation in advertising BTW. In theatre, TV and adverts black people are actually over represented, if that is a thing.

Is ANY representation now unacceptable?
For the sake of just representation, yes. I'm also never made this point in my arguments. It's innately racist and most of the pushing of representation is based upon the notion white/british people are over represented and that's due to some form of racism and ignores social economic stuff, culture and other factors. It is due to trends in the past in some cases, at least from historical race trends. Working class people are under represented due to these trends. I've made it clear that also the right way to go about it is to ensure equality of opportunity in society, not what is essentailly cultural quotas.
And is that any different a stance than that taken by outright racists who simply don't see black people as part of British culture and don't want them portrayed as 'normal Brits' on TV?

Most of the comments you quoted do not make this point. If not all of them. The issue isn't about if the people are black or white, it's that the people are chosen for their colour of skin, not on any fair basis.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:34 pm
My argument with 4071 is woke culture itself is bigoted and you can see why victims of that bigotry will lash out, especially in frustration as it seems certain discriminatory viewpoints are being allowed by our media, corporate and technological powers. And also people's assumptions that assume racism when none is actually said on both sides does not mean racism has occured.
You know, I can kinda see your thinking here.

The backlash against something will - almost by default - focus on that thing and can appear to have similar characteristics.

You say here that woke culture is bigoted and imply a bigotry around race, which means that any response against that will inevitably have the same focus and can appear to have the characteristics of that which it is opposing.


You could imagine that woke culture is exactly a manifestation of this phenomenon. Say, anti-racism emerges in opposition to racism and in doing so inevitably focuses on race, which can make it appear that that anti-racism is indistinguishable from racism.

This would explain why so many on the right accuse BLM of being racist - it is not simply embarrassed projection, but instead they sincerely believe it is racist because from their perspective this anti-racist movement focuses on race, which is what racists do.


However, whilst you can excuse racist-seeming behaviour (getting angry at seeing black peopple on TV) because it is simply a backlash against actual racist behaviour (the bigoted woke agenda), how come you can't see that woke culture is racist-seeming (to you) because it in itself is a response to actual (and undeniable) racism.
WOke culture isn't racist seeming to me. It holds general racial assumptions minorities are incable and ignores actual facts and events. What ever mental gymnastics they hold to show virtue to do so. It's a trend of thought George Orwell frequently criticised in English Liberals and their views of the working class in the Road to Wigan. Once again you cna't actually point to actual racism. You can only assume mind read to claim so.

I've not excused it. In fact I called them dickheads and made it clear they are because they can't possibly know Sainburys advert holds.

Which came first - racism or wokeness?
Ah, again, this persumes the critics here are in the camp or category of racists. Most of them are not. That si the problem with every one of the arguments here, they fall back to "yeah but it's racist" dispute no actual racism was viewed.

It's not that, wokeness came out of a period where racism was in the decline. Wokeness is also a subtle form of racism to exert political and cultural control. It constantly uses vast generalisations to accuse people of things their actions have not done. You only have to see the utter negative about successful Asians in say the Tory party to see how it's bigotry in another form and the idea is they are wrong and even gatekeepers for racists for being politically wrong.
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Post by 4071 »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:06 pm
And is that any different a stance than that taken by outright racists who simply don't see black people as part of British culture and don't want them portrayed as 'normal Brits' on TV?

Most of the comments you quoted do not make this point. If not all of them. The issue isn't about if the people are black or white, it's that the people are chosen for their colour of skin, not on any fair basis.
Are you kidding?
You may as well rename yourself Blackbury’s
Where are the British people?
You’ve managed to completely alienate the few remaining White customers you still had
Never shopping in Sainsbury's again
I see white people have been well represented in this ad! Imagine a complete white family, imagine the uproar (narrator: There was no uproar over the all white families)
Absolutely sickening
In a white country? I'm sure in Africa they do a white version! LOL
Isn't the UK supposed to be able diversity and inclusion? Don't see any of that here.
Disgraceful Disgusting Shocking
What would Africans do without Sainsburys?
Skipping the rest of them, those three are pretty explicit that black people aren't British. That's such an old school racist trope that you would have to be actively TRYING to pretend that it's not motivated by racism.

I get that you are bending over backwards to put by far the most generous possible interpretation on people whose response to an ad with an exclusively black cast was
Absolutely sickening
or
Disgraceful Disgusting Shocking
but surely even you have to admit that the implication that black people are not British is fundamentally racist at its core. Surely?
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Post by 4071 »

fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm
As you can never truly know someone's motivations, I do wonder what it would take for you to think anything that anyone says or does is racist?
Evidence of racism. Neither of us know their motivations - you assume they're racist, without being able to identify specific racism, while I'm not willing to.
I know.

Like Eldan you are taking the position that racism cannot be proven to exist.

Because there is nothing that proves that it does. Which is why you were unable to come up with an example of something that would be evidence of racism.
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Post by 4071 »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:06 pm
Let's just assume that the majority of complaints and criticisms aren't from explicitly racist people, and they are simply lashing back against woke culture
Let's not assume. You want to accuse people of racism, provide proof. Stop assuming you can read minds. There isn't actually too little representation in advertising BTW. In theatre, TV and adverts black people are actually over represented, if that is a thing.
Good point.
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:39 pm WOke culture isn't racist seeming to me. It holds general racial assumptions minorities are incapable and ignores actual facts and events.

Wokeness is also a subtle form of racism to exert political and cultural control. It constantly uses vast generalisations to accuse people of things their actions have not done. You only have to see the utter negative about successful Asians in say the Tory party to see how it's bigotry in another form and the idea is they are wrong and even gatekeepers for racists for being politically wrong.
Oh really? Let's not assume. You want to accuse woke culture of racism, provide proof.
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Post by ChipSpike »

4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:43 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm
As you can never truly know someone's motivations, I do wonder what it would take for you to think anything that anyone says or does is racist?
Evidence of racism. Neither of us know their motivations - you assume they're racist, without being able to identify specific racism, while I'm not willing to.
I know.

Like Eldan you are taking the position that racism cannot be proven to exist.

Because there is nothing that proves that it does. Which is why you were unable to come up with an example of something that would be evidence of racism.
Ofcourse racism exists. I've seen the opinion expressed that a white man can't express an opinion because he's a white man. If there's a clearer expression of racism <in the UK> I don't what is.
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Post by 4071 »

ChipSpike wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:53 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:43 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm
As you can never truly know someone's motivations, I do wonder what it would take for you to think anything that anyone says or does is racist?
Evidence of racism. Neither of us know their motivations - you assume they're racist, without being able to identify specific racism, while I'm not willing to.
I know.

Like Eldan you are taking the position that racism cannot be proven to exist.

Because there is nothing that proves that it does. Which is why you were unable to come up with an example of something that would be evidence of racism.
Ofcourse racism exists. I've seen the opinion expressed that a white man can't express an opinion because he's a white man. If there's a clearer expression of racism <in the UK> I don't what is.
Prove that it's racist.

It may appear racist to you, but you can't know what people are thinking when they say things that appear racist.

You're making an assumption, based simply on something appearing to be racist.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by ChipSpike »

4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:00 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:53 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:43 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm
As you can never truly know someone's motivations, I do wonder what it would take for you to think anything that anyone says or does is racist?
Evidence of racism. Neither of us know their motivations - you assume they're racist, without being able to identify specific racism, while I'm not willing to.
I know.

Like Eldan you are taking the position that racism cannot be proven to exist.

Because there is nothing that proves that it does. Which is why you were unable to come up with an example of something that would be evidence of racism.
Ofcourse racism exists. I've seen the opinion expressed that a white man can't express an opinion because he's a white man. If there's a clearer expression of racism <in the UK> I don't what is.
Prove that it's racist.

It may appear racist to you, but you can't know what people are thinking when they say things that appear racist.

You're making an assumption, based simply on something appearing to be racist.
It's denying a person a right based purely on his skin colour and sex.
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Post by 4071 »

ChipSpike wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:10 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:00 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:53 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:43 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm

Evidence of racism. Neither of us know their motivations - you assume they're racist, without being able to identify specific racism, while I'm not willing to.
I know.

Like Eldan you are taking the position that racism cannot be proven to exist.

Because there is nothing that proves that it does. Which is why you were unable to come up with an example of something that would be evidence of racism.
Ofcourse racism exists. I've seen the opinion expressed that a white man can't express an opinion because he's a white man. If there's a clearer expression of racism <in the UK> I don't what is.
Prove that it's racist.

It may appear racist to you, but you can't know what people are thinking when they say things that appear racist.

You're making an assumption, based simply on something appearing to be racist.
It's denying a person a right based purely on his skin colour and sex.
In the same way that calling for a boycott on a company because they hired black people for a job would be an attempt to deny a person rights based on skin colour?
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Post by ChipSpike »

4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:21 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:10 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:00 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:53 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:43 pm

I know.

Like Eldan you are taking the position that racism cannot be proven to exist.

Because there is nothing that proves that it does. Which is why you were unable to come up with an example of something that would be evidence of racism.
Ofcourse racism exists. I've seen the opinion expressed that a white man can't express an opinion because he's a white man. If there's a clearer expression of racism <in the UK> I don't what is.
Prove that it's racist.

It may appear racist to you, but you can't know what people are thinking when they say things that appear racist.

You're making an assumption, based simply on something appearing to be racist.
It's denying a person a right based purely on his skin colour and sex.
In the same way that calling for a boycott on a company because they hired black people for a job would be an attempt to deny a person rights based on skin colour?
No, because Sainsburys said they hired the people because of their skin colour. It denies white actors the opportunity because of their skin colour.

EDIT: I'm not even sure that they are acting legally here
Last edited by ChipSpike on Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:39 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:06 pm
And is that any different a stance than that taken by outright racists who simply don't see black people as part of British culture and don't want them portrayed as 'normal Brits' on TV?

Most of the comments you quoted do not make this point. If not all of them. The issue isn't about if the people are black or white, it's that the people are chosen for their colour of skin, not on any fair basis.
Are you kidding?
You may as well rename yourself Blackbury’s
Where are the British people?
You’ve managed to completely alienate the few remaining White customers you still had
Never shopping in Sainsbury's again
I see white people have been well represented in this ad! Imagine a complete white family, imagine the uproar (narrator: There was no uproar over the all white families)
Absolutely sickening
In a white country? I'm sure in Africa they do a white version! LOL
Isn't the UK supposed to be able diversity and inclusion? Don't see any of that here.
Disgraceful Disgusting Shocking
What would Africans do without Sainsburys?
I did say some comments were done by racists. The fact you looked for the egregious comments and even then a minority you can highlight as actually dangerous.

The South Africa one is clearly illustrating how the reverse isn't done or seen as acceptable. But as I said I do believe some racists have coped onto this. It is obvious in these circumstances that they are bluntly talking about their perceived injustice about race. I've called many of these people before as racist, the US police brutality thread will show that.

Skipping the rest of them, those three are pretty explicit that black people aren't British. That's such an old school racist trope that you would have to be actively TRYING to pretend that it's not motivated by racism.
I'm not pretending anything. I actually said some of the comments would be form racists more than once. But the argument you keep avoiding is the general sentiment of opposing picking purposely on race is not a racist one. And a few racists won't change that. Just like opposing racism doesn't become woke when the sentiment is one of equality rather than any form of racial or cultural discrimination or dislike.
I get that you are bending over backwards to put by far the most generous possible interpretation on people whose response to an ad with an exclusively black cast was
Absolutely sickening
or
Disgraceful Disgusting Shocking
but surely even you have to admit that the implication that black people are not British is fundamentally racist at its core. Surely?
Calling britain a white country isn't racist, even if it is blunt. It clearly is if it's meant as well the majority and historically. Saying black people can't be British is another thing. And I wouldn't stand for that. I'm not justifying the blunt inaccurate nature of these comments, but they are clearly trying to illustrate what they see as the unfairness of how rac eis presented.

I oppose racism in all it's forms. However I don't imagine or fantasie it's happening as an assumption. Unless it's clear and obvious I look for proof, I don't assume if it's in any way unclear and without evidence. Like wuse I don't make absolute statements about every possible dubious but not clear statement as racist as some absolyte. I can happily assume some are made with a racist motivation somewhere, but I can't in any rational way start filling individual comments into racist or non-racist columns when I actually don't know the motivations of the person who actually made the comments. I don't need to either.
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Post by eldanielfire »

4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:43 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm
As you can never truly know someone's motivations, I do wonder what it would take for you to think anything that anyone says or does is racist?
Evidence of racism. Neither of us know their motivations - you assume they're racist, without being able to identify specific racism, while I'm not willing to.
I know.

Like Eldan you are taking the position that racism cannot be proven to exist.
please sod off with this crap. I was called a nigegr outside a bus stop by some drunk woman last year in front of kids I've previously taught. I am also sure of many incidents in my life I am sure were due to my race, but also I can't be sure. I don't need to invent racism however, and I need to be clear here, I'm not certain all of them were racist and I can't factually prove any of them because I can't read their minds. I'm also sure a few of them were probably not racist.

Because there is nothing that proves that it does. Which is why you were unable to come up with an example of something that would be evidence of racism.
Being called a nigger would do that. You know, someone actually being racist. That's evidence enough rather than second guessing and assuming everyone is being racist.
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Post by 4071 »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:05 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:43 pm
Like Eldan you are taking the position that racism cannot be proven to exist.
please sod off with this crap. I was called a nigegr outside a bus stop by some drunk woman last year in front of kids I've previously taught. I am also sure of many incidents in my life I am sure were due to my race, but also I can't be sure. I don't need to invent racism however, and I need to be clear here, I'm not certain all of them were racist and I can't factually prove any of them because I can't read their minds. I'm also sure a few of them were probably not racist.

So you tell me to sod off when I say that you take the position that racism cannot be proven.

And then a few lines later you take the position that you can't prove that any of these incidents are racist.


Um.

Okay....
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Post by 4071 »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:05 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:43 pm
Because there is nothing that proves that it does. Which is why you were unable to come up with an example of something that would be evidence of racism.
Being called a nigger would do that. You know, someone actually being racist. That's evidence enough rather than second guessing and assuming everyone is being racist.
Okay, well at least there's some point where you think that it's possible to identify actual racism.

Though, of course, even that depends on the context. You still can't prove it's motivated by racism. I think we've all seen the white guy claiming that it's okay because black people use the word all the time, or point out the difference between 'nigger' and 'nigga'.

Now they might just be racist pricks being disingenuous. But even in this situation - even in this extreme case that you accept can be considered racist - you still can't prove it. Not for sure.

Which makes this demand for absolute proof f**king dumb.
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Post by ChipSpike »

4071, I think you're disappearing up your own arse here. Sainsbury's produce an ad based on race to their own admission, people react in a negative way, surprise, surprise. It's clumsy, and patronising to black and white British. (Brit asians and others don't even get a look in).
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Post by fatcat »

4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:43 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm
As you can never truly know someone's motivations, I do wonder what it would take for you to think anything that anyone says or does is racist?
Evidence of racism. Neither of us know their motivations - you assume they're racist, without being able to identify specific racism, while I'm not willing to.
I know.

Like Eldan you are taking the position that racism cannot be proven to exist.

Because there is nothing that proves that it does. Which is why you were unable to come up with an example of something that would be evidence of racism.
I think you have me confused with someone else.

I haven't taken that position, and no one has even asked me to provide an example of racism.
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Sia criticised for casting Maddie Ziegler as autistic teen


The trailer for 'Music', a film produced by the singer Sia and featuring dancer Maddie Ziegler as a teenager with autism, has just been released.

But there has already been a lot of discussion, including criticism, about how autism has been portrayed in the film.

People have also been questioning why Sia decided to cast Maddie - who doesn't have autism - as the main character, instead of an actor who does.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/55028412

I know I should have run this past 4071 to see if it was appropriate content for this thread but sod it, I'm living dangerously.

Shocking ableism on display in the entertainment industry.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:13 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:05 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:43 pm
Like Eldan you are taking the position that racism cannot be proven to exist.
please sod off with this crap. I was called a nigegr outside a bus stop by some drunk woman last year in front of kids I've previously taught. I am also sure of many incidents in my life I am sure were due to my race, but also I can't be sure. I don't need to invent racism however, and I need to be clear here, I'm not certain all of them were racist and I can't factually prove any of them because I can't read their minds. I'm also sure a few of them were probably not racist.

So you tell me to sod off when I say that you take the position that racism cannot be proven.

And then a few lines later you take the position that you can't prove that any of these incidents are racist.


Um.

Okay....
I didn't say that. 1st claiming I don't think racism can be proved is utterly false. I said unless something said is actually racist or evidence of racist motivations means you are just second guessing peoples motivations. In your case second guessing and acting as if your guesses are fact.

Saying racism can be proven but some of those quotes you posted may not have actual evidence of being racist is not the same thing. The fact you keep purposely avoiding any distinction is typical of you and the only way you keep arguing.
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