The Culture Wars Mega Thread

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eldanielfire
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:22 pm
4071 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:43 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm
As you can never truly know someone's motivations, I do wonder what it would take for you to think anything that anyone says or does is racist?
Evidence of racism. Neither of us know their motivations - you assume they're racist, without being able to identify specific racism, while I'm not willing to.
I know.

Like Eldan you are taking the position that racism cannot be proven to exist.

Because there is nothing that proves that it does. Which is why you were unable to come up with an example of something that would be evidence of racism.
I think you have me confused with someone else.

I haven't taken that position, and no one has even asked me to provide an example of racism.
4071 seems determined to go off and argue against and a few things nobody said. Which probably explains why he's reading racism everywhere and every time I've seen him defending woke culture. The shame is I oppose behaviour like that because it's boy who cried wolf stuff. It demeans and undermines the real racism and racist incidents in our society when it does occur.
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eldanielfire
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

fatcat wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:45 pm
Sia criticised for casting Maddie Ziegler as autistic teen


The trailer for 'Music', a film produced by the singer Sia and featuring dancer Maddie Ziegler as a teenager with autism, has just been released.

But there has already been a lot of discussion, including criticism, about how autism has been portrayed in the film.

People have also been questioning why Sia decided to cast Maddie - who doesn't have autism - as the main character, instead of an actor who does.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/55028412

I know I should have run this past 4071 to see if it was appropriate content for this thread but sod it, I'm living dangerously.

Shocking ableism on display in the entertainment industry.
How dare she pick somebody to act the part rather than get...., well, ummmmm.

The situation reminds me of the Scarlett Johnasonn case where she was cast to play a trans actor, trans-extremists kicked up a fuss about how it has to be a trans actor for representation purposes and Johnason can't be allowed to play the role and then the film was cancelled when she left the role.
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AD345
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by AD345 »

Is this the most stupid thread on PR (which is really saying something)?

Yes

Yes, it is
C69
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by C69 »

AD345 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:57 am Is this the most stupid thread on PR (which is really saying something)?

Yes

Yes, it is
I really don't get it at all tbh.
I also have no idea what the issue with the Sainsbury's ad is tbh
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4071
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Post by 4071 »

C69 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:51 pm
AD345 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:57 am Is this the most stupid thread on PR (which is really saying something)?

Yes

Yes, it is
I really don't get it at all tbh.
I also have no idea what the issue with the Sainsbury's ad is tbh
It has a black family in it.

Now that is an issue for one of two reasons:

1) Racists don't like it. And feeling emboldened by a conservative backlash against 'woke' culture, they are feeling more and more free to express their racism in public forums. And so they protest against the casting of black families in TV adverts.

2) Non-racist white people with union jack flags in their Twitter handles are frustrated by 'woke' culture creating racial division where none previously existed and so they protest against the casting of black families in TV adverts.


Fatty and Eldan take the view that you cannot assume that the motivation is racism, even if it is indistinguishable in effect from racism. You can only assume racism where you can prove racism.

The following question is how can you prove racism? As you cannot KNOW anyone's motives for sure, it becomes functionally impossible to prove. So the default is to assume otherwise.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by ChipSpike »

4071 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:08 am
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:51 pm
AD345 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:57 am Is this the most stupid thread on PR (which is really saying something)?

Yes

Yes, it is
I really don't get it at all tbh.
I also have no idea what the issue with the Sainsbury's ad is tbh
It has a black family in it.

Now that is an issue for one of two reasons:

1) Racists don't like it. And feeling emboldened by a conservative backlash against 'woke' culture, they are feeling more and more free to express their racism in public forums. And so they protest against the casting of black families in TV adverts.

2) Non-racist white people with union jack flags in their Twitter handles are frustrated by 'woke' culture creating racial division where none previously existed and so they protest against the casting of black families in TV adverts.


Fatty and Eldan take the view that you cannot assume that the motivation is racism, even if it is indistinguishable in effect from racism. You can only assume racism where you can prove racism.

The following question is how can you prove racism? As you cannot KNOW anyone's motives for sure, it becomes functionally impossible to prove. So the default is to assume otherwise.
What was Sainsbury's motive in casting the family?
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eldanielfire
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

C69 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:51 pm
AD345 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:57 am Is this the most stupid thread on PR (which is really saying something)?

Yes

Yes, it is
I really don't get it at all tbh.
I also have no idea what the issue with the Sainsbury's ad is tbh
I believe it's likely a victim of the wider perception of identity politics, Woke'ism and the purposely pushed that perceived British or white culture should be eroded for a Diversity quota. These are issues of course, but whether it is for this advert is of course another matter. Most people attacking it are jumping to that conclusion without evidence I suspect.
Last edited by eldanielfire on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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eldanielfire
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

4071 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:08 am
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:51 pm
AD345 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:57 am Is this the most stupid thread on PR (which is really saying something)?

Yes

Yes, it is
I really don't get it at all tbh.
I also have no idea what the issue with the Sainsbury's ad is tbh
It has a black family in it.

Now that is an issue for one of two reasons:

1) Racists don't like it. And feeling emboldened by a conservative backlash against 'woke' culture, they are feeling more and more free to express their racism in public forums. And so they protest against the casting of black families in TV adverts.

2) Non-racist white people with union jack flags in their Twitter handles are frustrated by 'woke' culture creating racial division where none previously existed and so they protest against the casting of black families in TV adverts.


Fatty and Eldan take the view that you cannot assume that the motivation is racism, even if it is indistinguishable in effect from racism. You can only assume racism where you can prove racism.

The following question is how can you prove racism? As you cannot KNOW anyone's motives for sure, it becomes functionally impossible to prove. So the default is to assume otherwise.
This is where you are just sprouting Bimboman style arguments, falsely reframing things into statements that haven't been said, nor argued for and seemingly purposely ignoring what was actually said.

Many of the comments are not indistinguishable form racism. You have just jumped to a racist motivation from them. It doesn't matter if a few racists do agree. Plenty of woke and far left arguments are the same as racists half the time. There are also a fair few black commentators who oppose and rage against identity politics like this. Are they racist against the black family too?

Take for example that plenty of racists hate Jews. The Labour party have pretty convincing been supporting or complicit in racism against Jews. This does not mean supporting the Labour party is indistinguishable from anti-Semitism.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by fatcat »

This is where you are just sprouting Bimboman style arguments, falsely reframing things into statements that haven't been said, nor argued for and seemingly purposely ignoring what was actually said.
It's what they do.
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4071
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by 4071 »

ChipSpike wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:36 am
What was Sainsbury's motive in casting the family?
Without making too many assumptions... I'm going to assume that they needed some people to play a family in an advert.
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fatcat
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by fatcat »

4071 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:12 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:36 am
What was Sainsbury's motive in casting the family?
Without making too many assumptions... I'm going to assume that they needed some people to play a family in an advert.

Good lord, you see, it is possible!
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4071
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by 4071 »

fatcat wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:15 pm
4071 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:12 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:36 am
What was Sainsbury's motive in casting the family?
Without making too many assumptions... I'm going to assume that they needed some people to play a family in an advert.
Good lord, you see, it is possible!
:)

I have learned much from you and eldan
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by ChipSpike »

4071 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:12 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:36 am
What was Sainsbury's motive in casting the family?
Without making too many assumptions... I'm going to assume that they needed some people to play a family in an advert.
No assumptions necessary, Sainsbury's said it's because of diversity, they didn't say, "they were the best set of actors for the role", or "they got the job on merit".
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4071
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by 4071 »

ChipSpike wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:25 pm
4071 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:12 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:36 am
What was Sainsbury's motive in casting the family?
Without making too many assumptions... I'm going to assume that they needed some people to play a family in an advert.
No assumptions necessary, Sainsbury's said it's because of diversity, they didn't say, "they were the best set of actors for the role", or "they got the job on merit".
Didn't their response say that they wanted their advertising to show that Sainsbury's was for everybody and that their campaigns show the diverse communities that they serve?

How can you assume that they didn't hire the white families in order to represent that diversity?



And if you think that casting decisions are PURELY meritocratic, I'd like you to imagine Anthony Hopkins auditioning for the role of, say, Cleopatra. Now he might be an excellent actor - the best actor - but do you think he would actually get the role?

Or how about a black woman playing Bond? Reckon you'd be okay with that?
ChipSpike
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by ChipSpike »

4071 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:36 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:25 pm
4071 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:12 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:36 am
What was Sainsbury's motive in casting the family?
Without making too many assumptions... I'm going to assume that they needed some people to play a family in an advert.
No assumptions necessary, Sainsbury's said it's because of diversity, they didn't say, "they were the best set of actors for the role", or "they got the job on merit".
Didn't their response say that they wanted their advertising to show that Sainsbury's was for everybody and that their campaigns show the diverse communities that they serve?

How can you assume that they didn't hire the white families in order to represent that diversity?



And if you think that casting decisions are PURELY meritocratic, I'd like you to imagine Anthony Hopkins auditioning for the role of, say, Cleopatra. Now he might be an excellent actor - the best actor - but do you think he would actually get the role?

Or how about a black woman playing Bond? Reckon you'd be okay with that?
But the advert doesnt show the diversity of their customers, if indeed thats their main motive. Black people make up c 3% of the population. British Asians 7-8%? White 85%? Even a cursory knowledge of diversity would show that.

I'm pretty sure Hopkins would be the first to admit he wouldn't be best to play Cleopatra, except in a comedy. A black woman playing a white british hard drinking womanising spy would require hours in makeup, and wouldn't be convincing IMO.
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Santa »

As part of its bid to become anti-racist the British Library has compiled a list of 300 individuals and institutions that may have benefitted from slavery or colonialism. On the list is Ted Hughes whose crime is having a 17th century colonialist ancestor. :thumbup:
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

Santa wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:41 pm As part of its bid to become anti-racist the British Library has compiled a list of 300 individuals and institutions that may have benefitted from slavery or colonialism. On the list is Ted Hughes whose crime is having a 17th century colonialist ancestor. :thumbup:
I did read that, I thought it was so ridiculous it must have been reported very selectively to make it seem like something it is not.
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Post by 4071 »

ChipSpike wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:27 pm
4071 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:36 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:25 pm
4071 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:12 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:36 am
What was Sainsbury's motive in casting the family?
Without making too many assumptions... I'm going to assume that they needed some people to play a family in an advert.
No assumptions necessary, Sainsbury's said it's because of diversity, they didn't say, "they were the best set of actors for the role", or "they got the job on merit".
Didn't their response say that they wanted their advertising to show that Sainsbury's was for everybody and that their campaigns show the diverse communities that they serve?

How can you assume that they didn't hire the white families in order to represent that diversity?



And if you think that casting decisions are PURELY meritocratic, I'd like you to imagine Anthony Hopkins auditioning for the role of, say, Cleopatra. Now he might be an excellent actor - the best actor - but do you think he would actually get the role?

Or how about a black woman playing Bond? Reckon you'd be okay with that?
But the advert doesnt show the diversity of their customers, if indeed thats their main motive. Black people make up c 3% of the population. British Asians 7-8%? White 85%? Even a cursory knowledge of diversity would show that.

I'm pretty sure Hopkins would be the first to admit he wouldn't be best to play Cleopatra, except in a comedy. A black woman playing a white british hard drinking womanising spy would require hours in makeup, and wouldn't be convincing IMO.
The campaign, consisting of multiple adverts with white families in the other ads, might be considered to be more accurately representative of the diversity of customers, though. The advert was just one in a series, and the only one with an all-black cast.

And the only one to draw complaints.

For... reasons...
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by Santa »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:44 pm
Santa wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:41 pm As part of its bid to become anti-racist the British Library has compiled a list of 300 individuals and institutions that may have benefitted from slavery or colonialism. On the list is Ted Hughes whose crime is having a 17th century colonialist ancestor. :thumbup:
I did read that, I thought it was so ridiculous it must have been reported very selectively to make it seem like something it is not.
The BL backs down. Useless c.unts.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/ ... lave-trade
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fatcat
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Re: The Culture Wars Mega Thread

Post by fatcat »

Santa wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:47 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:44 pm
Santa wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:41 pm As part of its bid to become anti-racist the British Library has compiled a list of 300 individuals and institutions that may have benefitted from slavery or colonialism. On the list is Ted Hughes whose crime is having a 17th century colonialist ancestor. :thumbup:
I did read that, I thought it was so ridiculous it must have been reported very selectively to make it seem like something it is not.
The BL backs down. Useless c.unts.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/ ... lave-trade

And linked on the same page -
Staff at Jordan Peterson's publisher protest new book plans

At a PRH Canada town hall meeting on Monday, one employee told Vice, “people were crying about how Jordan Peterson has affected their lives”. PRH Canada’s diversity and inclusion committee reportedly received at least 70 anonymous messages about Peterson’s book from staff, with only “a couple” in favour of the decision to publish.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/ ... book-plans
Santa
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Post by Santa »

fatcat wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:32 pm
Santa wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:47 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:44 pm
Santa wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:41 pm As part of its bid to become anti-racist the British Library has compiled a list of 300 individuals and institutions that may have benefitted from slavery or colonialism. On the list is Ted Hughes whose crime is having a 17th century colonialist ancestor. :thumbup:
I did read that, I thought it was so ridiculous it must have been reported very selectively to make it seem like something it is not.
The BL backs down. Useless c.unts.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/ ... lave-trade

And linked on the same page -
Staff at Jordan Peterson's publisher protest new book plans

At a PRH Canada town hall meeting on Monday, one employee told Vice, “people were crying about how Jordan Peterson has affected their lives”. PRH Canada’s diversity and inclusion committee reportedly received at least 70 anonymous messages about Peterson’s book from staff, with only “a couple” in favour of the decision to publish.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/ ... book-plans
Saw.that. The guy has sold 5m copies. It's as if those people are too stupid to know how their own industry works. I hope he leaves.
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eldanielfire
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Post by eldanielfire »

Woke students in ignorant and silly demands rather than actual research shocker.

Students want the word 'black' banned from textbooks and lectures
Manchester University undergraduates say using the colour as an adjective is stemmed in 'colonial history' and is now outdated

By
Craig Simpson
28 November 2020 • 3:00pm
University students have demanded the word "black" be banned from lectures and textbooks amid claims it symbolises "negative situations".

Undergraduates at the University of Manchester say the colour's use as an adjective is stemmed in "colonial history", which has become outdated in the wake of the Black Lives Matter movement.

Supporters are calling for commonly used phrases such as "black sheep" to be removed from lecture slides and books, while concerns have also been raised about "blackmail" and "black market" during a student union-led audit of racism concerns on campus.

The University said it is preparing to roll out new training and research in response to the unease in order to tackle “racist terminology” and “aggressions”.

In documents seen by The Telegraph,those studying at the red brick institution called for: “The university to ban the use of these words listed above and any other use of the word ‘black’ as an adjective to express negative connotations.”

This is because black is “linguistically and metaphorically associated with negative situations” and “used for bad and unsavoury situations or objects”.

This is part of an “accepted consciousness” of using colours as adjectives that is “situated in colonial history”, the student report stated.

Students in the university's East African, Sudanese, Nigerian and Natural Hair societies canvassed for the report, claiming terms like “blacklist” and “whitelist” should be barred from any written communications.

This ban, they argue, should be imposed on university research papers, lecture slides, and books published by staff.

The University of Manchester, part of the elite Russell Group, has said in a report responding to student concerns that it will address language that is “divisive and not inclusive”.

A training programme is being developed based on the “findings on everyday aggressions” and “this will include the use of racist terminology”.

A spokesperson said: "Racism and discrimination have no place in our University, and all our community of students and staff have a right to expect that they will be treated equally and fairly and can work and study in a safe, secure and fulfilling environment."

The Race Matters report states the institution will consult on “appropriate language to ensure we embed inclusive linguistics into our values”.

However, the alleged “colonial” or racist etymologies of the common phrases which are to be addressed has been dismissed by experts.

Lexicographer Jonathon Green said the phrases were not borne from conscious racism. “An aspect of current identity politics has indeed claimed an etymology that simply wasn't there at the moment of coinage,” he said.

The negative connotations of the nursery rhyme staple black sheep may stem from the commercially less valuable wool of these rarer animals.

Blackmail is believed to have derived from bandits demanding extortion payments from victims near the Anglo-Scottish boundary between the 13th and 17th centuries.
I'm sure if black is used in a negative context that derives from seeing black people it would have some validity to remove those terms. Certainly pick on those. The fact almost every example is not derived from racist/colonial origins, many predate the empire by centuries, shows how daft many of these assumptions are by people who are both adults and can use google.
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fatcat
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Post by fatcat »

Maybe we could have two lexicons - one for utter jessies and one for normal people.
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Post by Gavin Duffy »

Very, very, very, very, very, VERY, dark blue.
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eldanielfire
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Post by eldanielfire »

Gavin Duffy wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:44 pm Very, very, very, very, very, VERY, dark blue.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by Salient »

Santa wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:40 pm
fatcat wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:32 pm
Santa wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:47 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:44 pm
Santa wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:41 pm As part of its bid to become anti-racist the British Library has compiled a list of 300 individuals and institutions that may have benefitted from slavery or colonialism. On the list is Ted Hughes whose crime is having a 17th century colonialist ancestor. :thumbup:
I did read that, I thought it was so ridiculous it must have been reported very selectively to make it seem like something it is not.
The BL backs down. Useless c.unts.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/ ... lave-trade

And linked on the same page -
Staff at Jordan Peterson's publisher protest new book plans

At a PRH Canada town hall meeting on Monday, one employee told Vice, “people were crying about how Jordan Peterson has affected their lives”. PRH Canada’s diversity and inclusion committee reportedly received at least 70 anonymous messages about Peterson’s book from staff, with only “a couple” in favour of the decision to publish.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/ ... book-plans
Saw.that. The guy has sold 5m copies. It's as if those people are too stupid to know how their own industry works. I hope he leaves.
Spare a thought for the Comic industry, pure delusional thinking comes to mind. The publishers seem to have lost track of who their actual customers are as opposed to the thoughts of a minority on twitter that make Trump seem sane.
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Post by Heymans »

A bit off topic but I thought that was a slam dunk. Its a open letter from french scientists responding to a garbage open letter from american "scientists" after the Paty assassination.


https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-eu ... 2kUO1ROcXM

We want to reply to the open letter written by academics from mostly English-speaking universities that was published by openDemocracy,* and which was in turn a response to the open manifesto we published in Le Monde (2 November 2020), supporting the statements made by Jean-Michel Blanquer, the Secretary of Education (“Ministre de l’Education Nationale”) in the Macron government. Blanquer had pointed to the development of certain dominant ideological positions in French Academia that ultimately undermine the universal ideals that are fundamental to the French Educational System as well as to the country and that encroach upon any given University's obligation to deliver knowledge and quality research. We take this opportunity, not only to defend our arguments, but to address the ideological attitudes as well as the implicit and explicit mischaracterizations of our manifesto. Overall, we want to describe how the open letter provides a very biased and misleading view of our text.
We begin by pointing out that our manifesto was signed by scores of prominent academics who represent multiple disciplines so, to start off, we point out that the patronizing attitude of the Open Letter was wholly inappropriate and off-putting. The debate that we aimed to engage in, by issuing our manifesto, is not between right and left. Rather, it is between those, on one side, who trust in universalism and believe that the bonds of a nation, if not a civilization, are primarily expressed through its shared values and those, on the other side, who view society as a collection of antagonistic groups – defined on the basis of sex, gender-identity, sexuality, ethnicity and even skin colour (what some even call “race”) – that determines all power-driven relations. We are on the side of those who defend universalist values and we thereby reject the claims made by those who signed the Open Letter who, in our view, fracture society by breaking it down into an ever-increasing number of often-grievance-driven subgroups. In what follows, the signatories of this letter present a detailed rebuttal, with each section focusing on a claim made against us and our manifesto.
Point 1: “At a time of mounting racism, white supremacism, antisemitism and violent far-right extremism, academic freedom has come under attack. The freedom to teach and research the roots and trajectories of race and racism are being perversely blamed for the very phenomena they seek to better understand.”

Reply: We find this statement not only curious but false. It is false because it leaves the impression that we are back in the 1930's and that white supremacist organizations and violent far-right extremists are threateningly roaming the streets. Nothing in the legislative debate or in the organization of western societies reflects such a narrative. True, there might be some right-wing movements in several western countries but there is no violent far-right extremism in the streets, at least not in France. While there have been exceptions to this general assertion with respect to other European countries, such as the Anders Breivik attacks in Norway or the appearance of organizations such as the AFD in Germany, these are far from being leading movements. We agree that political polarization may bolster such extremist groups, but we also argue that such polarization occurs mostly as a response to (both left- and right-wing) identitarians. There lies the danger because, while everyone is pointing fingers at each other, the source of violent extremism in our country is currently coming from another place entirely, bringing along with it an increasing death toll among our citizens. That is, France has seen more than 300 of its citizens killed in the past few years and this fact has nothing to do with identity politics.

We also find it deeply concerning that the signatories of the letter should state that (through the appearance of our manifesto) academic freedom is under attack. In our manifesto, we simply mention highly contentious aspects of social activism that are at the heart of scholarship in the social sciences and that even invade STEM research, where they should have no place at all. Several of us have extensively analyzed the theories that are attached to this activism and point out how they foster a divisive social environment. The scientific value of these theories is furthermore highly contestable. Take post-colonial theory, which stands out as an example.

From a purely scholarly and intellectual standpoint, the post- or de-colonial movement is a sham. It is not a school of thought per se. There is no actual theorizing involved in its assertions. There cannot be a post- or de-colonial theory since it is not grounded in a scholarly corpus of concepts, intelligible procedures and hypotheses. A theory must exhibit a number of features to be legitimately called scientific or scholarly. It must have predictive value, internal consistency, testability which includes falsification criteria. None of the above-mentioned features is present in post-colonial theory. That is, they have a pre-determined answer for all the topics they talk about which adds up to a classic case of myside bias. For example, the legacy of the Atlantic slave trade and European colonialism is supposed to be at the root of ‘systemic racism’, ie ‘white’ racism in contemporary western societies. In the meantime, there are two significant elements missing in this simplistic claim — African slave trade and Arab-Muslim slave trade. Such blind spots invalidate their positions and actually betray their ideological bias. Adhering to a self-verifying principle alone is by itself insufficient since it introduces significant bias. Historical indictment is not an investigative method; it only generates a set of beliefs and accusations. As a matter of fact, post-colonial ‘studies’ do not so much study as produce texts with a political agenda; in the meantime, it creates a perception of the West as fundamentally guilty, thereby weakening its legitimacy and political clout.

Point 2: This claim is deeply disingenuous, and in a context where academics associated with critical race and decolonial research have recently received death threats, it is also profoundly dangerous.

Reply: This is another claim that ignores some general truths. From our perspective, the most pernicious threats have been issued from the antagonist-activists side. We remind the reader that cancel culture and de-platforming is rampant in North American and British universities! A full list of cancelled events and individuals can be found here. We should not have to point out how massive pressure is consistently exerted on US and UK universities to rename their departments or to remove their statues. We remind the signatories of the open letter that activist groups threaten the teaching of the Western canon in universities (which translates into no Shakespeare or Proust). We remind them of the attack on art and music. We remind them of the incursion of activist theory on the sciences and biomedicine. We remind them of the problems encountered when teaching “divisive” subjects such as sex differences or evolution. We point out that many academic institutions and companies are falling into the virtue-signalling trap where they must show allegiance. We remind them that all this has consequences on society because it creates a divisive social environment at all levels, in the Academy and in broader society. We do not want this to happen in continental Europe and so we refuse the promotion of identitarian tribalism. As a final point, signatories of the manifesto have also been threatened and one of the scholars is, at present, under police-protection.

Point 3: The scholars involved in this manifesto have readily sacrificed their credibility in order to further a manifestly false conflation between the study of racism in France and a politics of 'Islamism’ and ‘anti-white hate’. They have launched it in a context where academic freedom in France is subject to open political interference, following a Senate amendment that redefines and limits it to being ‘exercised with respect for the values of the Republic’.

Reply: The signatories of the letter clearly think they can win an argument by simply looking down on accomplished academics who are internationally recognized and who publish their work in books and leading journals. Such a patronizing attitude is contemptuous and indeed shows a great misunderstanding of the situation. They even manage to reverse the stakes: academic freedom is threatened precisely by the movements within academia that want to stifle diversity of opinion and to attack the core values of a secular society. Reaffirming the values of the French republic is precisely what protects academia from viewpoint conformity and this is exactly what the state aims to, and must, protect.

Point 4: The manifesto proposes nothing short of a McCarthyite process to be led by the French Ministry for Higher Education... The ‘Islamogauchiste’ tag (which conflates the words ‘Islam’ and ‘leftists’) is now widely used by members of the government, large sections of the media and hostile academics. It is reminiscent of the antisemitic ‘Judeo-Bolshevism’ accusation in the 1930s which blamed the spread of communism on Jews.

Reply: This is insulting. It is also an example of strategic equivocation, reminiscent of the motte-and-bailey fallacy. Why on earth should one equate the Nazi ‘Judeo-Bolshevist’ label with the “islamo-gauchiste” tag?! To be fair to the signatories of the letter, it is more appropriate to call it “islamist-gauchiste”, but the underlying meaning is the same. Islamic fundamentalism is an enduring presence in France, with organizations promoting a separatist ideology trying to divorce well-integrated Muslims from the secular project of French society. There are many Muslims who are fully integrated, including cultural Muslims who do not believe in the religious doctrine as well as Muslim believers and imams who fully respect secular society, one in which they can freely exercise their religion. Conversely, however, there is – objectively – an alliance between extreme-left-wing movements that are opposed to an open and liberal society and Islamist activism. The “Parti des Indigènes de la République” is a case in point, standing as the main “islamist-gauchiste” movement in France. The former spokesperson of the movement, Hourija Boutelja, even endorsed Mohamed Merah, the 2012 jihadist killer: ‘Mohamed Merah is me and I am him. We are of the same origin and of the same condition. We are post-colonial subjects. I say tonight that I am a ‘fundamental’ Muslim’.1 We remind the signatories of the letter that Merah killed not only French military men of Muslim ancestry but also Jewish children in a school in Toulouse. We draw a clear line between Islam and Islamism, the latter of which is a radical implementation of a doctrine. Unfortunately, it is estimated that a third of young people of Muslim ancestry in France assert their support for a fundamentalist Islamic doctrine. This is, at the very least, a subject of concern for France’s secular future.

The Islamist agenda is, furthermore, promoted by foreign powers such as Turkey. President Erdogan himself, an objective ally of the Muslim Brotherhood, insulted President Macron and called him deranged. Raising the specter of “anti-Semitic witch-hunts” is another unworthy instance of rhetorical sophistry, a gratuitous insinuation that does not deserve further comment here, especially given the number of scholars within our ranks who specialize in the study of anti-Semitism.

1 "Mohamed Merah c’est moi et moi je suis lui. Nous sommes de la même origine mais surtout de la même condition. Nous sommes des sujets postcoloniaux. Nous sommes des indigènes de la république. (…) Je dis ce soir, je suis une musulmane fondamentale "

Point 5: We are concerned about the clear double standards regarding academic freedom in the attack on critical race and decolonial scholarship mounted by the manifesto. This is part of a global trend in which racism is protected as freedom of speech, while to express antiracist views is regarded as a violation of it. For the signatories of the manifesto – as for Donald Trump – only sanitised accounts of national histories that omit the truth about colonialism, slavery, and genocide can be antiracist. In this perverse and ahistorical vision, to engage in critical research and teaching in the interests of learning from past injustices is to engage in ‘antiwhite racism’, a view that reduces racism to the thoughts of individuals, disconnecting it from the actions, laws and policies of states and institutions in societies in which racial and socioeconomic inequality remains rife.

Reply: The rhetoric here is truly obnoxious in its blatant use of a perverted misrepresentation of reality. In France, racist language is NOT protected under freedom of speech so this much strikes us as surreal, while also questioning the grasp of world-knowledge of the Open Letter signatories. There is no demand for a ‘sanitized’ account of French national history or of French culture in our Manifesto. Claiming otherwise is clearly intended as a smear. Of course, slavery, colonialism and genocide are studied in history classes, as well they should be. However, critical race theory (CRT) and decolonial scholarship is another matter. CRT is an outgrowth of applied post-modernism connected to political activism. It is not what a sound theory should look like; ‘learning from past injustices’ is not the basis of a scholarly method. Decolonial scholarship is a deconstructionist device used to attack every accomplishment of Western society in literature, art, music, and even science. Talk about ‘perverse ahistorical vision’!

The implicit statement of the letter is that racism is systemic at every level of society, a notion which we completely reject. Racism is clearly condemned in law in France and it is a non-starter in French culture. There’s no need to fall for Ibrahim X Kendi’s overly simplified duality trap of racist vs antiracist. The new-age anti-racists just promote a form of tribal and racist world-view. We completely reject the terms coined in the newspeak, such as ‘white privilege’, ‘white fragility’, ‘present-day white supremacy’, and various absurdities such as ‘cultural appropriation,’ which are completely devoid of any scholarly basis. By the way, hinting at Donald Trump is another rhetorical smear aimed at painting an unpleasant picture of our manifesto. We fail to see the remotest connection between the 45th President of the US with our positions or with the topic at hand.

Point 6: In the interests of a real freedom, of speech and of conscience, we stand with French educators under threat from this ideologically-driven attack by politicians, commentators and select academics. It is grounded in the whitewashing of the history of race and colonialism and an Islamophobic worldview that conflates all Muslims with violence and all their defenders with so-called ‘leftist Islamism’. True academic freedom must include the right to critique the national past in the interests of securing a common future. At a time of deep polarization, spurred by elites in thrall to white supremacism, defending this freedom is more vital than ever.

Reply: This is a blatant example of intellectual dishonesty, a frequent behavior among academics subscribing to the activist-antagonists school of thought. They are inventing the notion that there is rampant whitewashing of the history of race and colonialism. The Islamophobia tag is yet another rhetorical device aimed at conflating the critique of a fundamentalist doctrine that aims to abolish secular society with people exercising peacefully their religion in a secular society. It is a disgrace and infuriating to the memory of all the people who died at the hands of Islamist terrorists in France. True academic freedom must include the right to criticize and oppose incoherent activist theories that are dominant in the academic field. As the number of signatories implies, it appears that those who subscribe to these activist theories are far from being a minority, contrary to what they would have us think under the guise of a PC consensus. Moreover, these activist theories are contributing to discord within society. It is not the case that white supremacists are presently the main problem in Higher Education; rather, the theories promoting a divisive ideology by well-paid academics from the regressive left are. There seems to be a fight for the soul of the left whose definition is seriously endangered by such a movement. We are hoping to make those ideological stakes clear.
Santa
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That letter has some.great points.
Heymans
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Santa wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:15 pm That letter has some.great points.
Not bad is it. I love that its in proper english too.
mdaclarke
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eldanielfire
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mdaclarke wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:01 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-c ... e-55144148

Puberty Blockers all but banned for under 16s

Jo Maugham thread

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/statu ... 1116286976
Was reading about the Kiera Bell ruling. Interesting that one observer points out that the justification for puberty Blockers from the clinic and organization who pushes for them to be used, almost never cites any Scientific sources and had backgrounds in stuff like "post-structuralist philosophy" which somewhat says it all. Some indication that a lot of dirt which could come out and it may well have echo's globally.
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eldanielfire
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mdaclarke wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:01 pm

Jo Maugham thread

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/statu ... 1116286976
He's a really an awful person isn't he? A lawyer for political purposes and fancies of the elite it seems and murdering animals with baseball bats.
Santa
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mdaclarke wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:01 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-c ... e-55144148

Puberty Blockers all but banned for under 16s

Jo Maugham thread

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/statu ... 1116286976
In that vein here is Rod Graham, Associate Professor of Sociology and Criminology | Coordinator of Old Dominion University's Cybercrime Program.
If a scholar does research on the lived experiences of trans folks and it gets a lot of press, you can bet that Quillette or Areo will publish a piece detailing the logical fallacies in the research in an attempt to discredit it.

This is the practice of scientific fascism.
https://twitter.com/roderickgraham/stat ... 7928680448

The humanity. Pointing out logical fallacies. :?
bimboman
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There isn’t anything Our Jolyon isn’t a massive c unt about.
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Jerome Manning
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Got told at work today that we have to do unconscious bias training in the new year.

Corporate told us over zoom that our work place is a hotbed of racism, sexism and homophobia. Everyone just looked at each other and was like wtf :?
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message #2527204
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Jerome Manning wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:35 am Got told at work today that we have to do unconscious bias training in the new year.

Corporate told us over zoom that our work place is a hotbed of racism, sexism and homophobia. Everyone just looked at each other and was like wtf :?
You work in australia?
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Sensible Stephen
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Jerome Manning wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:35 am Got told at work today that we have to do unconscious bias training in the new year.

Corporate told us over zoom that our work place is a hotbed of racism, sexism and homophobia. Everyone just looked at each other and was like wtf :?
Hmmm, we got told the same thing last week over teams. HR person specifically singled me as someone who might be uncomfortable with the company's underlying whiteness. WTF does that even mean.
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Zakar
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Sensible Stephen wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:47 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:35 am Got told at work today that we have to do unconscious bias training in the new year.

Corporate told us over zoom that our work place is a hotbed of racism, sexism and homophobia. Everyone just looked at each other and was like wtf :?
Hmmm, we got told the same thing last week over teams. HR person specifically singled me as someone who might be uncomfortable with the company's underlying whiteness. WTF does that even mean.
You should report the HR person to HR
goeagles
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Post by goeagles »

Probably belongs here:
The faces of the economic team President-elect Joe Biden unveiled publicly Tuesday included an African American woman, a man born in Nigeria, an Indian American woman and just one white man.

The response from Asian American, Black and Latino Democrats: It's not enough.

They want more representation, particularly in the Cabinet. And after Rep. Jim Clyburn, the most senior Black member of Congress and a key Biden ally, spoke out last week about the need for more diversity in Biden's burgeoning administration, more Black, Latino and Asian American lawmakers are joining the chorus.

“We're very, very concerned as a community, as a Latino community,” said Texas Rep. Vicente Gonzalez, who called last week for at least five Latinos to be appointed to Cabinet-level positions.

POLITICO DISPATCH: DECEMBER 2
You can’t please everyone … especially when you’re putting together a team to run the federal government. POLITICO’s Megan Cassella looks at why Biden’s promise to have a cabinet that “looks like America” hasn’t turned out the way advocates had hoped.


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Asian American and Pacific Islander advocates and officials are warning the Biden administration, in writing, it will be "deeply disappointing if several AAPIs are not nominated” to Cabinet positions. They’re growing increasingly convinced the president-elect will not match President Barack Obama's total of three Asian Americans in his first Cabinet.

Meanwhile, the Congressional Black Caucus is urging Biden to choose a Black Defense secretary and up the number of African Americans leading departments overall.

Together, the criticism highlights the challenges the Biden transition faces in satisfying expectations for a historically diverse Cabinet. And it underscores the growing demands for equal representation after a presidential election in which Asian Americans were difference-makers in Georgia, Latinos boosted Biden in Arizona, and Black voters propelled him to the nomination and ultimate victory.

But appeasing everyone may be a nearly impossible task, especially given the zero-sum reality of Cabinet jockeying and the limited slate of top-tier positions.

Latino lawmakers and outside groups, for example, are pushing New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham for Health and Human Services secretary — but tapping her over former U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy, who is Indian American, could anger Asian American advocacy groups.

President-elect Joe Biden introduces nominees and appointees to economic policy posts at a news conference Tuesday in Wilmington, Del.
President-elect Joe Biden introduces nominees and appointees economic policy posts Tuesday at a news conference in Wilmington, Del. | Andrew Harnik/AP Photo

“It’s no secret that as you look at the number of people that have been appointed ... we don’t see too many Asian Americans there, do we?” said Bel Leong-Hong, chair of the Democratic National Committee’s AAPI caucus.

Those lobbying the transition team say there is still time for Biden to meet his lofty diversity goals. But some Democrats are pessimistic after seeing the first rounds of personnel picks.

Biden’s core White House team will be mostly white, including his chief of staff, communications director, press secretary, legislative affairs director and one of his top economic advisers. And two of the so-called “Big Four” Cabinet positions — atop the State, Treasury, Justice and Defense Departments — have already been filled by white candidates.

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“A true way for Biden to make history would be to nominate a person of color for one or more of those ‘Big Four’ positions, and now they're down to just two,” said Janet Murguía, the president of UnidosUS and a former adviser to President Bill Clinton. “So there will be enormous scrutiny from both the Black and Latino community for the remaining two jobs — DoD and Justice — and rightfully so.”

A Black House lawmaker, who requested anonymity to speak more freely as Biden fills positions, put it more bluntly. “He’s got to step it up,” the lawmaker said, noting that Kamala Harris' selection as vice president doesn’t give Biden an excuse to appoint fewer African Americans to head key departments.

The Biden transition team says the president-elect will have a diverse administration when all is said and done. “His success in finding diverse voices to develop and implement his policy vision to tackle our nation’s toughest challenges will be clear when our full slate of appointees and nominees is complete,” a Biden-Harris transition official said in a statement.

It's true that, as the transition official pointed out, Biden has "announced several historic and diverse White House appointments and Cabinet nominees." He appointed an all-female senior communications team, for example, as well as the first woman of color to lead the Office of Management and Budget and the first female nominee for Treasury secretary.

But in 2020, the bar for diversity has been raised well beyond the seven women and 10 nonwhite officials in President Barack Obama's first Cabinet.

Senior AAPI officials highlight huge increases in voter turnout among Asian American voters in the 2020 election — including in crucial battleground states he won, such as Georgia and Arizona — as one reason they should be well-represented throughout the administration. Early and absentee voting among AAPI voters rose nearly 300 percent in battleground states this year, according to the Democratic data firm Catalist.

The Biden transition announced Monday that Neera Tanden, an Indian American woman, will be nominated to lead the Office of Management and Budget. But some AAPI officials said they still fear Biden is unlikely to meet the benchmark set by Obama, who appointed three AAPI candidates to Cabinet positions at the start of his term.

“We just want to make sure that the Biden administration — and we’ve conveyed this from Day One — has a diverse representation, and that diversity includes AAPIs,” said Rep. Grace Meng (D-N.Y.), vice chair of the DNC. “That’s not always fully understood.”

The influential Congressional Hispanic Caucus has also mounted an active pressure campaign.

In phone calls and letters, the lawmakers pointed out the transition’s agency review teams are roughly 11 percent Latino and their COVID-19 Advisory Board is about 15 percent Latino — each less than the roughly 20 percent share of the U.S. population Latinos represent.

And though they cheered the nomination of Cuban American Alejandro Mayorkas to run Homeland Security — the first immigrant and first Latino to hold the position, if confirmed — it does not come close to representing the breadth of Latinos across the country, they say.

“When we talk about diversity, we also need to talk about diversity within the Hispanic community,” said California Democratic Rep. Raul Ruiz. “The vast majority of Hispanics in the U.S. are Mexican Americans, so it would be important and helpful to have them represented in nominations. The Puerto Rican and Cuban American and Dominican American experiences are also important and should also be reflected.”

Gonzalez, the Texas Democrat, said he's warned Democrats about the surge in support for Republicans among Mexican American communities in South Texas and other battleground states.

“When Republicans are coming into our districts saying, 'what have the Democrats done for you?' And we have a Democratic president with a low showing or low representation of Latinos in his Cabinet and government, it is a tough response,” Gonzalez said. “I don't want to have to defend that.”

In addition to Lujan Grisham, Latino lawmakers support either DNC Chair Tom Perez or California Attorney General Xavier Becerra to lead the Justice Department. Ruiz’s name has also been floated by some members of the Hispanic Caucus as a potential addition to a Biden administration, given his health care background as a physician.

Members of the Congressional Black Caucus have been pressuring Biden’s transition team on an individual level, according to multiple members. Many take their cues from Clyburn, who is pushing for Ohio Democratic Rep. Marcia Fudge to be selected as the first Black female Agriculture secretary.

Rep. Emanuel Cleaver (D-Mo.) said he’s keeping a close eye on who Biden names to lead Housing and Urban Development, pointing out that Democrats have not nominated a Black man to lead HUD since 1965, when the department was created by President Lyndon Johnson. And he echoed other CBC members who are saying former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson’s “name needs to be in the mix” for Defense Secretary.

“I’m not ready to panic,” Cleaver said of representation within the administration, adding that members see Biden as someone who understands their demands and the “delicacy” of keeping a diverse party happy.

“The philosophy of those of us who've been in the civil rights movement is that even if it's friends, you know, you don't let up in your expressions of anticipation," said Cleaver. "We’re anticipating that he does the right thing.”
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/0 ... 03?cid=apn
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Benthos
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eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:46 pm
Gavin Duffy wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:44 pm Very, very, very, very, very, VERY, dark blue.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
On that point, like JM & SS we had to undergo micro-aggression training at work today. I was told I can no longer use the expression “black paint”...
.
.
.
.
.
...from now on I have to say “Leroy, please could you paint that wall?”

I’ll get my hoody...
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