Good to see Waratah is back.
Care to share your ideas re the Mueller report with us?

Any day now...

Aaaaany day now...

They're both relevant points in drawing conclusion in the absence of fact.
There's a couple of additional points to focus on in that Epstein had already been imprisoned on child sex crime in Florida so the environment wasn't new to him. He's not in general prison population either, he's in a unit removed from the harms child sexual offenders would ordinarily be exposed. They guy had money to buy protection, regardless of his crimes or charge sheet.

Sure it would have been uncomfortable in the surroundings, but enough to give it all up when there was a chance to escape it using the same method as previous? It'd seem unlikely but not entirely unbelievable that he'd top himself. I reckon it's pretty well accepted money can get you whatever you want. The idea that you could use money to get someone killed in prison seems pretty low down the list of unfathomable likelihood's.

So easy to see the hand of conspiracy in this one, it's got everything - World leaders, royalty, unimaginable wealth spread across all the players.

I'm sorry, but we simply don't know that. You don't. I don't. Nor does the judge overseeing his case - see here: https://nypost.com/2019/08/14/epstein-judge-wants-answers-about-first-incident-in-jail/. And the warder of the prison has so far refused to confirm or deny - again, see above link.

On top of that, there are reports of Epstein's lawyers believing his injuries were the result of an assault carried out by his cellmate, and requesting he be taken off suicide watch so that he wouldn't have to share a cell any longer. If you know enough to be certain that isn't the case, by all means fire it out there.

All I have been saying - and I really don't understand why this is such an outlandish thing to contemplate - is that until his trial was concluded, Epstein couldn't know his fate. With a team of the best lawyers his cash could buy, he likely had a shot, even if a slim one. He therefore had no reason - that any of us know of - to top himself.

Just to be clear. I am not saying that he categorically didn't kill himself. What I am pointing out is that there are enough anomalies - the above amongst them - that an open and shut assumption of suicide is very premature.

A case of art meets life, then.

Very realistic. And very, very creepy.

If there's anything you don't understand you should speak with your grade school teachers or your parents. I'm not in the childminding business.

Agreed. Reports about the state of MCC also point in that direction. Plus a previously powerful man rendered powerless exercising his one last bit of power. There are plenty of reasons why he would commit suicide.

But why now? That’s the point

Enormity of the situation sets in? Conditions at MCC? One final fudge you to everyone? Why does anyone pick a certain time to kill themselves.

Pity. You were so sure on the Trump thread that Mueller would obliterate Trump by exposing the whole sordid Russian collusion business.
Oh well, maybe next time.

Why then didn’t he do himself in when he faced an identical situation in Florida?

I'm responding to the statement that "he had no reason to off himself". He had reasons to off himself as pointing out by others earlier in the thread.

Not only that but he had, it seems, previously attempted self-harm - which from what we know was a separate incident to the beating he took - a significant indicator of his mental state.

His previous experience in an open door prison is not relevant - he was facing federal time. Bill Crosby, despite having 100s of millions of dollars, has been attacked multiple times in the pen.

I'm not saying the episode doesn't stink, but claiming he had no reason to attempt suicide is simply untrue. There are plenty of reasons - not only loss of status, the trappings of wealth, facing the real possibility of spending every remaining day of your life in the pen, knowing how child molesters are treated (he'd already had a taste of this) and everything else he's lost are "reasons". Whether you think they're sufficient reasons or not can be debated but to deny that they exist at all is just silly.

I've said nothing about the caused of his death, never mind claimed that that it was "open and shut" suicide?

I've simply stated that your categorical claim, repeated above, that "he had no reason to kill himself", is silly. He had plenty of reasons to kill himself - I've listed some above as have others before me in the thread.

Pointing out anomalies in the circumstances don't invalidate these reasons.

His handlers hadn't deserted him then.

Edit: also, his charges in Florida paled in comparison, and particularly what he ended up being charged with. He was a lot more f**ked this time, by a lot of accounts.

Ok. The issue here seems to be my loose phraseology. Let me clear it up. Until sentenced, the man had plenty to be hopeful about and to live for. This also tallies with the frame of mind his lawyers say he was in right up to the end.

Which handlers?

I’m not sure the charges were significantly different at all. In Florida, he was being investigated for crimes involving 30+ girls, some as young as 14. Unless I’ve missed something, the two investigations are of a piece.

By Acosta's own account he had g-men leaning on him to halt the investigation and offer up a deal. Above his pay grade. Makes you wonder if there guys left him for dead this time.

Now, none of this is to say I don't believe this doesn't all stink to hell. I just think the alleged suicide has it's very valid causes and reasons.

Yes, of course. Forgot that snippet from Acosta. A real eye-opener.

Speaking of people reading the New York Times and making the grievous error of thinking it might be reporting facts and sheeit, here is a fascinating piece in slate: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... cript.html

Dean baquet seems like a decent man being pulled apart by forces he can't control. This quote is amazing:



Okay, so the Russia story was garbage (obvious to sensible people) so now its all about racism and white supremacy. Everyone has their orders and talking points now GO!

No I agree with that. The most plausible being a genuine suicide. It's the easiest to digest. But likewise too, Bill Cosby is Bill Cosby and I wouldn't deny his popularity I just don't see Cosby on the same level as what's been exposed, or more importantly not been exposed with Epstein.

It's like the perfect storm.

Just amazing, isn't it? IMO people like Rachel Maddow and her ilk should be out on the streets looking for another job outside of the "news" business. But no, like you said, it's just onto a new, clickbaity talking point. And make no mistake, these people peddled a conspiracy theory of cosmic proportions, dominating the airwaves with this hoax for more than two years.

This was another good bit:



The Conservative Eddie approach to science. Start with your moral position and work your way backwards from there. This is where we're at I guess.

a that transcript is absolutely staggering. What are people supposed to make of This?

Someone flew a drone over his mansion while the FBI raided it.
Footage is on youtube.

https://www.celebritynetworth.com/artic ... sive-raid/

Well this is the thing with conspiracy theories isn't it. They are by definition not really compatible with Occam's. The razor would quickly have done away with savile a decade ago. That many people enabling him?

But if we must, surely Occam's razor says he wouldn't have commited suicide now? Why not wait until he was found guilty?

I agree. All sides using Occam's razor here are simply repeating their perspective. It's a coin flip, it's perfectly likely Epstein saw the end and went suicidal as it's perfectly likely he had faced this before and used his power and money to get a joke sentence out of it and so why would he be suicidal again? There isn't a more simple path here that is perfectly logical more rational position.

Narcissists are quite susceptible to it when the wind goes out of their baloon.

Lot of talk about Occam's razor. Hanlon's razor may be applicable too, especially in relation to the authorities who failed to stop him.

Ahem.

Hermes.

They weren't remotely identical situations. In the Florida case he wasn't remanded in jail. He was free on bail until his lawyers negotiated a sweetheart plea deal which indemnified co-conspirators and meant he would serve only a year in a private wing of Palm Beach county jail essentially qs a free man, coming and going as he pleased. Only then did he surrender himself, when it appeared he'd essentially gotten away with it. That is a very different scenario to the one he found himself in at the time of his death. He was f**ked and he knew it.

https://amp.tmz.com/2019/08/16/jeffrey-epstein-autopsy-confirms-suicide-by-hanging/

So the coroner says suicide......chose your fighter
1)Coroners a mossad agent or adjacent

2)He was hung by someone else who made it look that way

3)He was compelled to commit suicide

4)He realized the game was up and committed suicide of his own volition.

Number and reason.

Fair enough but my issue isn't really with your phrasing which I think was clear.

I agree with you that "he had reasons to not kill himself". My problem is the flawed reasoning that starts with that reasonable fact but concludes with "he had no reasons to kill himself". I've seen this trick used as a logical slight of hand too many times when arguing with my more conspiratorially minded friends.

There were reasons for him to not kill himself and reasons for him to kill himself. These two claims are completely independent.

Sure - I only mentioned Bill Cosby because of the suggestion that with money, Epstein could buy himself a relatively comfortable existence in the penitentiary. Once in federal prison, he's just another chomo - it'll be open season on him. His wealth might actually make it worse as that'll make him a juicy extortion target.

Yep

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... eover.html

This is great craic

The most interesting woman in the world.

Pictures of Andy inside Epsteins house, 2 years after JE was convicted. Young girls going in and out of the joint.

He's implicated I reckon. Of course the palace has gone into full denial mode.

Are Andy and Sarah as depraved as the Mountbattens?

They royals had become bizarrely popular in the past years, this is just a timely reminder of what they’re really like

It's open season on Harry atm: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... break.html

He's made a calamitous choice of wife it seems.