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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:15 pm 
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Statistically Ardie is way above the rest of the pack, Sam Whitelock the only guy who made more tackles (17)




6. Ardie Savea

Tackles made: 13
Turnovers: 1
Missed tackles: 0

Passes: 6
Runs: 12
Run Metres: 66
Clean breaks: 2
Defenders beaten: 4
Offloads: 1

Penalties conceded: 0


7. Sam Cane

Tackles made: 11
Turnovers: 2
Missed tackles: 2

Passes: 2
Runs: 6
Run Metres: 15
Clean breaks: 0
Defenders beaten: 0
Offloads: 0

Penalties conceded: 1

8. Keiran Read


Tackles made: 13
Turnovers: 1
Missed tackles: 1

Passes: 2
Runs: 8
Run Metres: 16
Clean breaks: 0
Defenders beaten: 0
Offloads: 0

Penalties conceded: 0


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:18 pm 
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I thought Cane was really impressive on the carry but all in very tight spaces, he was so much better than last week.

I also think it's a good indication of how we're still struggling to put our best ball runners into some space, give them some weaker shoulders to run at. I know Read is playing tighter now but he has the ability to make more run metres than that.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:21 pm 
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Couch wrote:
Statistically Ardie is way above the rest of the pack, Sam Whitelock the only guy who made more tackles (17)




6. Ardie Savea

Tackles made: 13
Turnovers: 1
Missed tackles: 0

Passes: 6
Runs: 12
Run Metres: 66
Clean breaks: 2
Defenders beaten: 4
Offloads: 1

Penalties conceded: 0


7. Sam Cane

Tackles made: 11
Turnovers: 2
Missed tackles: 2

Passes: 2
Runs: 6
Run Metres: 15
Clean breaks: 0
Defenders beaten: 0
Offloads: 0

Penalties conceded: 1

8. Keiran Read


Tackles made: 13
Turnovers: 1
Missed tackles: 1

Passes: 2
Runs: 8
Run Metres: 16
Clean breaks: 0
Defenders beaten: 0
Offloads: 0

Penalties conceded: 0

I reckon Cane made at least 4 maybe 5 more turnovers that Peyper ignored or penalised him for.

But the Trio worked very effectively TOGETHER in their defined roles.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:56 pm 
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So we're agreed ardie is the starting 6?

Hes not conventional, but he isn't bad.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:55 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
So we're agreed ardie is the starting 6?

Hes not conventional, but he isn't bad.



Bit disingenuous though , he packed down at 8 on attack and read played tighter on average over the 80.

Ardie did more of the seagulling, albeit majestic seagulling.

To me ardie was de facto 8 and read/hansen saves face by leaving him in the 8 shirt and leaving him out there to tackle and lead from example. He isn't Read of old but they want him on the park.

Ardie arguably the best 8 and best 7 and best 6 we have.

Also arguably the worlds best player right now.

Ardie plays the way Akira Ioane should be playing. Smashing blokes in the tackle and carrying with venom. That lets the piano players behind the pack do their dancing.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:07 pm 
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Yeah, well, I was very impressed by Read. His tackles every time smashed the opposition and did all the necessary tight work. A prime example of how to lead from the front when the pressure is on.

But the coaches are working up the new system and pulling in a few tactics that are going to give the opposition problems. Just like Read used to be put out wide, or Coles has been left on the sideline for the return ball, I like how they pushed out Ardie to the wing on specific plays, leaving backs to defend against him.

Excellent work by all 3 and the trio will only get more polished on how they do their different roles. Just hope they all stay fit :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:21 pm 
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It’s the collective performance rather than individual stats that matter. The work that each of the three did (and the tight five) allowed them all to perform. I’m comfortable with that as our starting loose forward combo.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:38 pm 
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Flockwitt wrote:
Yeah, well, I was very impressed by Read. His tackles every time smashed the opposition and did all the necessary tight work. A prime example of how to lead from the front when the pressure is on.

But the coaches are working up the new system and pulling in a few tactics that are going to give the opposition problems. Just like Read used to be put out wide, or Coles has been left on the sideline for the return ball, I like how they pushed out Ardie to the wing on specific plays, leaving backs to defend against him.

Excellent work by all 3 and the trio will only get more polished on how they do their different roles. Just hope they all stay fit :thumbup:


Yep, Read had his best game in some time and gave us a pointer to what his immediate future holds. As per Handome's post, he's effectively playing 6 now and doing it very well - Jerome Kaino's replacement has been staring us in the face for 3 long years. Which begs the question, Sam Cane is playing a tight 7 game, so somewhat perversely, should we not just put 6 on his back and be done with it?

Adding to the quandary, those are impressive stats from Ardie once again. Given that he's clearly capable of doing the full 80, I don't think we can afford not to start him.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:13 pm 
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Ted. wrote:
Flockwitt wrote:
Yeah, well, I was very impressed by Read. His tackles every time smashed the opposition and did all the necessary tight work. A prime example of how to lead from the front when the pressure is on.

But the coaches are working up the new system and pulling in a few tactics that are going to give the opposition problems. Just like Read used to be put out wide, or Coles has been left on the sideline for the return ball, I like how they pushed out Ardie to the wing on specific plays, leaving backs to defend against him.

Excellent work by all 3 and the trio will only get more polished on how they do their different roles. Just hope they all stay fit :thumbup:


Yep, Read had his best game in some time and gave us a pointer to what his immediate future holds. As per Handome's post, he's effectively playing 6 now and doing it very well - Jerome Kaino's replacement has been staring us in the face for 3 long years. Which begs the question, Sam Cane is playing a tight 7 game, so somewhat perversely, should we not just put 6 on his back and be done with it?

Adding to the quandary, those are impressive stats from Ardie once again. Given that he's clearly capable of doing the full 80, I don't think we can afford not to start him.

This is the best loose trio in NZ and the coaches have a plan to make it work. My concern is what happens if any of this 3 goes down. What they're doing is a lot of effort and tuning for a customized game structure based on these particular players. It's horses for courses because the next in the pecking order, Matt Todd, fits into this, but if they decide they want say a Squire to come back into the mix, it's not the same way of playing.

Still, shouldn't really be worrying about what ifs. The ABs are going to struggle if any of half a dozen key players go down, it's just where they're at.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:18 pm 
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Well I was one who was knocking the Zoo for putting Ardie at 6, but he had a great game today. Not that the Wobs put the pressure on like last week. It was all about the tight 5 stepping up which they did.

Like many I was surprised they took PT off when Taylor came on for Coles. But the other 7 really stepped up in the scrums.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:48 pm 
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obelixtim wrote:
Well I was one who was knocking the Zoo for putting Ardie at 6, but he had a great game today. Not that the Wobs put the pressure on like last week. It was all about the tight 5 stepping up which they did.

Like many I was surprised they took PT off when Taylor came on for Coles. But the other 7 really stepped up in the scrums.


They were very effective, and as you say, much of the credit has to go to the tight 5 for winning the collisions.

The tackling of the tight 5 was excellent, and Laulala added some punch in the front row we have been sorely lacking.
Tuipolotu had probably his best ABs game as well, the challenge for him is to turn up for work every week, not just occasionally.

Jury still very much out on whether the lineout is the price we pay for Ardie'e effectiveness ball in hand.
The lineout was pretty poor, but at least some of that was down to poor throwing and on one occasion a stupidly complicated pre throw dance.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:39 am 
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HANDSOMECAKE wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
So we're agreed ardie is the starting 6?

Hes not conventional, but he isn't bad.



Bit disingenuous though , he packed down at 8 on attack and read played tighter on average over the 80.

Ardie did more of the seagulling, albeit majestic seagulling.

To me ardie was de facto 8 and read/hansen saves face by leaving him in the 8 shirt and leaving him out there to tackle and lead from example. He isn't Read of old but they want him on the park.

Ardie arguably the best 8 and best 7 and best 6 we have.

Also arguably the worlds best player right now.

Ardie plays the way Akira Ioane should be playing. Smashing blokes in the tackle and carrying with venom. That lets the piano players behind the pack do their dancing.


Ardie is awesome. PT was playing a great supporting role too.

Re Akira what is needed for him to sort his shit out? Last 20 min for him in Ardie mode would be ideal.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:09 am 
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Flockwitt wrote:
Ted. wrote:
Flockwitt wrote:
Yeah, well, I was very impressed by Read. His tackles every time smashed the opposition and did all the necessary tight work. A prime example of how to lead from the front when the pressure is on.

But the coaches are working up the new system and pulling in a few tactics that are going to give the opposition problems. Just like Read used to be put out wide, or Coles has been left on the sideline for the return ball, I like how they pushed out Ardie to the wing on specific plays, leaving backs to defend against him.

Excellent work by all 3 and the trio will only get more polished on how they do their different roles. Just hope they all stay fit :thumbup:


Yep, Read had his best game in some time and gave us a pointer to what his immediate future holds. As per Handome's post, he's effectively playing 6 now and doing it very well - Jerome Kaino's replacement has been staring us in the face for 3 long years. Which begs the question, Sam Cane is playing a tight 7 game, so somewhat perversely, should we not just put 6 on his back and be done with it?

Adding to the quandary, those are impressive stats from Ardie once again. Given that he's clearly capable of doing the full 80, I don't think we can afford not to start him.

This is the best loose trio in NZ and the coaches have a plan to make it work. My concern is what happens if any of this 3 goes down. What they're doing is a lot of effort and tuning for a customized game structure based on these particular players. It's horses for courses because the next in the pecking order, Matt Todd, fits into this, but if they decide they want say a Squire to come back into the mix, it's not the same way of playing.

Still, shouldn't really be worrying about what ifs. The ABs are going to struggle if any of half a dozen key players go down, it's just where they're at.


IMO, they definitely need a specialist 6 or 6/lock in the mix along the lines of Squire, Fifita or Hemopo, as much when we're under lineout and/or beast pressure. I'm not sure that Matt Todd does fit the mix, especially regarding the latter point and considering we have two players that cover 7 more than adequately. If you want impact, instead of cover, that's a different sort player entirely to what Todd offers.

The loosie's pecking order i n the lineout is:

Read
Savea
Cane
Todd


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:15 am 
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Savea was incredible, again. He’s frequently our best player out there so often now. It was Cane who disappointed so much last week, it was great to see him take it up a notch. Read didn’t get caught out in defence as much this week but to be honest his general standards have been pretty high all year.

As others said, it’s all about the tight five. Big Pat finally stepped up, and Franks will struggle to get back into the starting XV now


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:19 am 
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Flockwitt wrote:
Ted. wrote:
Flockwitt wrote:
Yeah, well, I was very impressed by Read. His tackles every time smashed the opposition and did all the necessary tight work. A prime example of how to lead from the front when the pressure is on.

But the coaches are working up the new system and pulling in a few tactics that are going to give the opposition problems. Just like Read used to be put out wide, or Coles has been left on the sideline for the return ball, I like how they pushed out Ardie to the wing on specific plays, leaving backs to defend against him.

Excellent work by all 3 and the trio will only get more polished on how they do their different roles. Just hope they all stay fit :thumbup:


Yep, Read had his best game in some time and gave us a pointer to what his immediate future holds. As per Handome's post, he's effectively playing 6 now and doing it very well - Jerome Kaino's replacement has been staring us in the face for 3 long years. Which begs the question, Sam Cane is playing a tight 7 game, so somewhat perversely, should we not just put 6 on his back and be done with it?

Adding to the quandary, those are impressive stats from Ardie once again. Given that he's clearly capable of doing the full 80, I don't think we can afford not to start him.

This is the best loose trio in NZ and the coaches have a plan to make it work. My concern is what happens if any of this 3 goes down. What they're doing is a lot of effort and tuning for a customized game structure based on these particular players. It's horses for courses because the next in the pecking order, Matt Todd, fits into this, but if they decide they want say a Squire to come back into the mix, it's not the same way of playing.

Still, shouldn't really be worrying about what ifs. The ABs are going to struggle if any of half a dozen key players go down, it's just where they're at.


Our "reserves" are playing in the Compressed format NPC , arguably the worlds best rugby competition , at present and only the Saffers have a viable first class competition underway at present.

I think that gives us an undeniable advantage in this RWC.

Regarding the perceived issue at 6 , Squire, Frizzell, Taufua , Evans , Ioane , Papalii are all playing highly combative running rugby at present.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:05 am 
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Couch wrote:
Statistically Ardie is way above the rest of the pack, Sam Whitelock the only guy who made more tackles (17)




6. Ardie Savea

Tackles made: 13
Turnovers: 1
Missed tackles: 0

Passes: 6
Runs: 12
Run Metres: 66
Clean breaks: 2
Defenders beaten: 4
Offloads: 1

Penalties conceded: 0


7. Sam Cane

Tackles made: 11
Turnovers: 2
Missed tackles: 2

Passes: 2
Runs: 6
Run Metres: 15
Clean breaks: 0
Defenders beaten: 0
Offloads: 0

Penalties conceded: 1

8. Keiran Read


Tackles made: 13
Turnovers: 1
Missed tackles: 1

Passes: 2
Runs: 8
Run Metres: 16
Clean breaks: 0
Defenders beaten: 0
Offloads: 0

Penalties conceded: 0



Cane played significantly fewer minutes (55 or so vs 80 for the other two), and there are no stats here for ruck arrivals and clearouts.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:10 am 
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Sonny Blount wrote:
Couch wrote:
Statistically Ardie is way above the rest of the pack, Sam Whitelock the only guy who made more tackles (17)




6. Ardie Savea

Tackles made: 13
Turnovers: 1
Missed tackles: 0

Passes: 6
Runs: 12
Run Metres: 66
Clean breaks: 2
Defenders beaten: 4
Offloads: 1

Penalties conceded: 0


7. Sam Cane

Tackles made: 11
Turnovers: 2
Missed tackles: 2

Passes: 2
Runs: 6
Run Metres: 15
Clean breaks: 0
Defenders beaten: 0
Offloads: 0

Penalties conceded: 1

8. Keiran Read


Tackles made: 13
Turnovers: 1
Missed tackles: 1

Passes: 2
Runs: 8
Run Metres: 16
Clean breaks: 0
Defenders beaten: 0
Offloads: 0

Penalties conceded: 0



Cane played significantly fewer minutes (55 or so vs 80 for the other two), and there are no stats here for ruck arrivals and clearouts.

Ruck Arrivals and clearouts??
Those make no difference to team stats, Cane missing 2 tackles in 55 mins is actually a red mark to his name.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:31 am 
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Couch wrote:
Ruck Arrivals and clearouts??
Those make no difference to team stats

I disagree, but it is nice of Akira Ioane’s childhood coach to grace the board.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:31 am 
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A wise man named Ted once told me, if your loosies aren't getting penalised they aren't trying hard enough.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:03 am 
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naki wrote:
Savea was incredible, again. He’s frequently our best player out there so often now. It was Cane who disappointed so much last week, it was great to see him take it up a notch. Read didn’t get caught out in defence as much this week but to be honest his general standards have been pretty high all year.

As others said, it’s all about the tight five. Big Pat finally stepped up, and Franks will struggle to get back into the starting XV now

I'm actually surprised you thought Cane was disappointing last week. He was one of the few ABs actually mixing it up in the ruck exchanges in that match and attempting to disrupt the stream of ball the Wallabies were getting. He was mostly losing but that's because he was often a lone warrior in there.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:15 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
naki wrote:
Savea was incredible, again. He’s frequently our best player out there so often now. It was Cane who disappointed so much last week, it was great to see him take it up a notch. Read didn’t get caught out in defence as much this week but to be honest his general standards have been pretty high all year.

As others said, it’s all about the tight five. Big Pat finally stepped up, and Franks will struggle to get back into the starting XV now

I'm actually surprised you thought Cane was disappointing last week. He was one of the few ABs actually mixing it up in the ruck exchanges in that match and attempting to disrupt the stream of ball the Wallabies were getting. He was mostly losing but that's because he was often a lone warrior in there.


Cane is there to smash motherfuckrs. He is the best we have at smashing motherfuckrs. Last week too many motherfuckrs went conspicuously un-smashed


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:15 am 
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naki wrote:
As others said, it’s all about the tight five. Big Pat finally stepped up, and Franks will struggle to get back into the starting XV now


Anybody else think that Laulala is our better tighthead prop? I expect Hansen will select Franks, but I too am wondering whether Laulala is the better player right now.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:43 am 
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Flockwitt wrote:
Yeah, well, I was very impressed by Read. His tackles every time smashed the opposition and did all the necessary tight work. A prime example of how to lead from the front when the pressure is on.

But the coaches are working up the new system and pulling in a few tactics that are going to give the opposition problems. Just like Read used to be put out wide, or Coles has been left on the sideline for the return ball, I like how they pushed out Ardie to the wing on specific plays, leaving backs to defend against him.

Excellent work by all 3 and the trio will only get more polished on how they do their different roles. Just hope they all stay fit :thumbup:


One of the great things about Read has always been his ability to change styles depending on who the number 6 is. Plays a wider game when they are using a big munting 6 and tighter when the 6 is there to range about.

The make up of the team and the number of different 6s they've had in the last two or three seasons means he's mainly been playing that tight loose forward role. I thought he was great last night.


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