OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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bimboman
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by bimboman »

DragsterDriver wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:48 am
bimboman wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:28 am https://mobile.twitter.com/AFP/status/1 ... 0911540227


Good luck
The Irish will vote it down.

But “uncle Joe” wants it.
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message #2527204
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by message #2527204 »

DragsterDriver wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:48 am
bimboman wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:28 am https://mobile.twitter.com/AFP/status/1 ... 0911540227


Good luck
The Irish will vote it down.
Can they vote down an international treaty? I thought that was the domain of VDL?
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DragsterDriver
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

message #2527204 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:36 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:48 am
bimboman wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:28 am https://mobile.twitter.com/AFP/status/1 ... 0911540227


Good luck
The Irish will vote it down.
Can they vote down an international treaty? I thought that was the domain of VDL?
I read it on here somewhere.
themaddog
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by themaddog »

DragsterDriver wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:40 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:36 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:48 am
bimboman wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:28 am https://mobile.twitter.com/AFP/status/1 ... 0911540227


Good luck
The Irish will vote it down.
Can they vote down an international treaty? I thought that was the domain of VDL?
I read it on here somewhere.
It must be true if that is the case.
Magpie26
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Magpie26 »

So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
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danny_fitz
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by danny_fitz »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
What is the end goal of the European project?
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message #2527204
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by message #2527204 »

danny_fitz wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:08 am
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
What is the end goal of the European project?
Jobs for the boys
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

danny_fitz wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:08 am
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
What is the end goal of the European project?
For me, long-term, it should be federalistion.

Currently it seems to be making a place for itself amonst the other big players in the world (US, China etc) whilst promoting stability, sustainable development, equality and human rights...
piquant
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by piquant »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:39 am
danny_fitz wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:08 am
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
What is the end goal of the European project?
For me, long-term, it should be federalistion.

Currently it seems to be making a place for itself amonst the other big players in the world (US, China etc) whilst promoting stability, sustainable development, equality and human rights...
It can do all that without federalisation. Not that we have a seat to influence such thinking now, but for sure that's something that there seems little appetite for in any populace
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danny_fitz
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by danny_fitz »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:39 am
danny_fitz wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:08 am
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
What is the end goal of the European project?
For me, long-term, it should be federalistion.

Currently it seems to be making a place for itself amonst the other big players in the world (US, China etc) whilst promoting stability, sustainable development, equality and human rights...
At least you can state your desired outcome, the EU however seems reluctant to spell out what the end goal is or the road map to get there, hiding instead behind the somewhat nebulas 'ever closer union' without stating what that is in the long run.
Yer Man
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Yer Man »

danny_fitz wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:08 am
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
What is the end goal of the European project?
Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love & A Hard Boiled Egg :thumbup:
piquant
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by piquant »

danny_fitz wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:50 am
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:39 am
danny_fitz wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:08 am
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
What is the end goal of the European project?
For me, long-term, it should be federalistion.

Currently it seems to be making a place for itself amonst the other big players in the world (US, China etc) whilst promoting stability, sustainable development, equality and human rights...
At least you can state your desired outcome, the EU however seems reluctant to spell out what the end goal is or the road map to get there, hiding instead behind the somewhat nebulas 'ever closer union' without stating what that is in the long run.
It's not for the EU to decide. For sure there are some people there with thoughts on the matter, both for and against. But it's up to the nation states plot this course, and it'd be out of order for the EU to assume something that isn't theirs (they've made this assumption before of course and they'll do it again, because power grabs are quite normal but still should still be knocked down)
Mick Mannock
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Mick Mannock »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
If the populations consent.
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eldanielfire
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
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message #2527204
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by message #2527204 »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
It's all a la carte. You don't imagine the eastern europeans are following the rules? The german states make them up as they go along, and the french only follow the rules that are in their interest.
The only way to change is to make the whole EU mechansim democratic, rather than a massive self serving bureaucracy. And the member states will ever relinquish the power voluntarily.
Magpie26
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Magpie26 »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
What does that mean?
Everyone in the Euro?
Everyone in Schengen?
piquant
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by piquant »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
Where does one draw a line? Norway, Iceland, Romania, Sweden, Turkey? And who gets to decide what the acceptable one true vision is?

One of the biggest acts by the EU, the introduction of the Euro, established very clearly members could pursue different agendas within the overall construct. Is that now not the position, and if so who jumps, everyone into the Euro or bin the Euro and have a requirement everyone has their own currency?

I don't want to say there shouldn't be a federal European superstate, I wouldn't want one in the here and now, but the future might look very different. But it's going to be a proper bun fight to go from the current situation to massive further amounts of alignment
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:59 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
What does that mean?
Everyone in the Euro?
Everyone in Schengen?
Those are conditions of accession at the moment are they not?
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

piquant wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:59 pm Where does one draw a line? Norway, Iceland, Romania, Sweden, Turkey? And who gets to decide what the acceptable one true vision is?

One of the biggest acts by the EU, the introduction of the Euro, established very clearly members could pursue different agendas within the overall construct. Is that now not the position, and if so who jumps, everyone into the Euro or bin the Euro and have a requirement everyone has their own currency?

I don't want to say there shouldn't be a federal European superstate, I wouldn't want one in the here and now, but the future might look very different. But it's going to be a proper bun fight to go from the current situation to massive further amounts of alignment
All reasons why a clearer vision needs to be defined by the 27 if the EU is to move forward.
bimboman
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by bimboman »

Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:59 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
What does that mean?
Everyone in the Euro?
Everyone in Schengen?

It means a federal state, a European defence force and foreign policy, a European fiscal union and therefore tax policy.

It means the end of the nation state for those that are members.
Mick Mannock
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Mick Mannock »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
In which case national governments could explain in detail the intended destination of the EU, and ask if they consent to it...or not.

Never seems to happen though.
Mick Mannock
Posts: 26440
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Mick Mannock »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:59 pm Where does one draw a line? Norway, Iceland, Romania, Sweden, Turkey? And who gets to decide what the acceptable one true vision is?

One of the biggest acts by the EU, the introduction of the Euro, established very clearly members could pursue different agendas within the overall construct. Is that now not the position, and if so who jumps, everyone into the Euro or bin the Euro and have a requirement everyone has their own currency?

I don't want to say there shouldn't be a federal European superstate, I wouldn't want one in the here and now, but the future might look very different. But it's going to be a proper bun fight to go from the current situation to massive further amounts of alignment
All reasons why a clearer vision needs to be defined by the 27 if the EU is to move forward.
Define it then.

And then ask the populations if they wish for it.
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

Mick Mannock wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:17 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
In which case national governments could explain in detail the intended destination of the EU, and ask if they consent to it...or not.

Never seems to happen though.
Not in the UK that's for sure.

I wonder why that is...
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

Mick Mannock wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:18 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:59 pm Where does one draw a line? Norway, Iceland, Romania, Sweden, Turkey? And who gets to decide what the acceptable one true vision is?

One of the biggest acts by the EU, the introduction of the Euro, established very clearly members could pursue different agendas within the overall construct. Is that now not the position, and if so who jumps, everyone into the Euro or bin the Euro and have a requirement everyone has their own currency?

I don't want to say there shouldn't be a federal European superstate, I wouldn't want one in the here and now, but the future might look very different. But it's going to be a proper bun fight to go from the current situation to massive further amounts of alignment
All reasons why a clearer vision needs to be defined by the 27 if the EU is to move forward.
Define it then.

And then ask the populations if they wish for it.
Seems fair. But with 27 members having many diverging priorities this will, of course, take time.
Magpie26
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Magpie26 »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:12 pm
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:59 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am

Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
What does that mean?
Everyone in the Euro?
Everyone in Schengen?
Those are conditions of accession at the moment are they not?
I believe they are but not everyone in the EU has agreed to them and its doubtful if even the ones that joined when they were implemented will fully introduce them so its hard to see how it will not still be "à la carte" EU membership.
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:22 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:12 pm
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:59 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm

Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
What does that mean?
Everyone in the Euro?
Everyone in Schengen?
Those are conditions of accession at the moment are they not?
I believe they are but not everyone in the EU has agreed to them and its doubtful if even the ones that joined when they were implemented will fully introduce them so its hard to see how it will not still be "à la carte" EU membership.
Point taken.
I guess there is lots of work to be done on maintaining a degree of flexibilty/diversity whilst striving for economic, political, social and monetary harmony.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Magpie26 »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:27 pm
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:22 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:12 pm
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:59 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm

Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
What does that mean?
Everyone in the Euro?
Everyone in Schengen?
Those are conditions of accession at the moment are they not?
I believe they are but not everyone in the EU has agreed to them and its doubtful if even the ones that joined when they were implemented will fully introduce them so its hard to see how it will not still be "à la carte" EU membership.
Point taken.
I guess there is lots of work to be done on maintaining a degree of flexibilty/diversity whilst striving for economic, political, social and monetary harmony.
Of course there is and its going to be very challenging no doubt.
:thumbup:
Mick Mannock
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Mick Mannock »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:19 pm
Mick Mannock wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:17 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am

Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
In which case national governments could explain in detail the intended destination of the EU, and ask if they consent to it...or not.

Never seems to happen though.
Not in the UK that's for sure.

I wonder why that is...
Nor China or Argentina or.., which are, like the UK, not EU members.
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:29 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:27 pm
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:22 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:12 pm
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:59 pm
What does that mean?
Everyone in the Euro?
Everyone in Schengen?
Those are conditions of accession at the moment are they not?
I believe they are but not everyone in the EU has agreed to them and its doubtful if even the ones that joined when they were implemented will fully introduce them so its hard to see how it will not still be "à la carte" EU membership.
Point taken.
I guess there is lots of work to be done on maintaining a degree of flexibilty/diversity whilst striving for economic, political, social and monetary harmony.
Of course there is and its going to be very challenging no doubt.
:thumbup:
Challenging, costly and lengthy but ultimately the right and good thing to do IMO.
bimboman
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by bimboman »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:31 pm
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:29 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:27 pm
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:22 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:12 pm

Those are conditions of accession at the moment are they not?
I believe they are but not everyone in the EU has agreed to them and its doubtful if even the ones that joined when they were implemented will fully introduce them so its hard to see how it will not still be "à la carte" EU membership.
Point taken.
I guess there is lots of work to be done on maintaining a degree of flexibilty/diversity whilst striving for economic, political, social and monetary harmony.
Of course there is and its going to be very challenging no doubt.
:thumbup:
Challenging, costly and lengthy but ultimately the right and good thing to do IMO.


It’s right to make “European” a country.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".


My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
With a gun? No. But there is clear political force for example to not leave the EU being applied as Brexit shows. If anything recent events shows why a more flexible EU would be a more effective entity. Stating it has to be all or nothing where there can be better outcomes for members is just a false premise. EU like all nation states should put their people first, not the politics.
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

Mick Mannock wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:30 pm
Nor China or Argentina or.., which unlike the UK, have never been EU members.
:roll:
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:34 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am
Magpie26 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 am So the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal is ratified.
Only 5 opposing votes - guess it says something, as does the fact that it was done according to Boris's deadline.

Comment from Michel Barnier was interesting: "This is a divorce. It is a warning, Brexit. It's a failure of the European Union and we have to learn lessons from it."
Wonder what, if anything will be taken onboard.
Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".


My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
With a gun? No. But there is clear political force for example to not leave the EU being applied as Brexit shows. If anything recent events shows why a more flexible EU would be a more effective entity. Stating it has to be all or nothing where there can be better outcomes for members is just a false premise. EU like all nation states should put their people first, not the politics.
For me the "cake and eat it"/"more flexible" approach simply doesn't work, a common rule book is needed if the EU is to evolve and become a fairer, better place for all it's citizens.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by message #2527204 »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:19 pm
Mick Mannock wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:17 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am

Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".

My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
In which case national governments could explain in detail the intended destination of the EU, and ask if they consent to it...or not.

Never seems to happen though.
Not in the UK that's for sure.

I wonder why that is...
Au contraire. The UK had been one of the few to ask for the people's consent, and that consent was withdrawn.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:41 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:34 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 am

Member states should be committed to the EU project long-term.

No more of this half-in and half-out of Europe....
Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".


My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
With a gun? No. But there is clear political force for example to not leave the EU being applied as Brexit shows. If anything recent events shows why a more flexible EU would be a more effective entity. Stating it has to be all or nothing where there can be better outcomes for members is just a false premise. EU like all nation states should put their people first, not the politics.
For me the "cake and eat it"/"more flexible" approach simply doesn't work, a common rule book is needed if the EU is to evolve and become a fairer, better place for all it's citizens.
An absolute centralized "One size fits all" certainly doesn't work as we can see. The Euro alone shows it can't possibly benefit all EU citizens as it is pitched to benefit some at the expense of others. Forcing vastly different nations with different economies, cultures and conditions into one course of action each and every time is destined to failure.

Fairness can't be achieved by forcing the same size, shape on conditions on hundreds of millions of people with differing needs, environments and situations.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by piquant »

clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:59 pm Where does one draw a line? Norway, Iceland, Romania, Sweden, Turkey? And who gets to decide what the acceptable one true vision is?

One of the biggest acts by the EU, the introduction of the Euro, established very clearly members could pursue different agendas within the overall construct. Is that now not the position, and if so who jumps, everyone into the Euro or bin the Euro and have a requirement everyone has their own currency?

I don't want to say there shouldn't be a federal European superstate, I wouldn't want one in the here and now, but the future might look very different. But it's going to be a proper bun fight to go from the current situation to massive further amounts of alignment
All reasons why a clearer vision needs to be defined by the 27 if the EU is to move forward.
I think there's probably just as much strength in allowing vagaries, and also having the EU tread water for a while rather than seeking constant change.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:49 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:41 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:34 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:38 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 pm

Isn't the EU project part of the problem though? The general population of the EU do not want an EU super state. Nor does a single monolithic approach suit all countries (see how many believe southern European countries economies are actually disadvantaged by the Euro). A more flexibly EU would actually be good for differing countries at different times.
Er... no it isn't.

No one is being forced to be part of "the club".


My point was that if want to enjoy the benefits of membership you also have to accept the costs/negative aspects. But no more of this "à la carte" EU membership thank-you very much.
With a gun? No. But there is clear political force for example to not leave the EU being applied as Brexit shows. If anything recent events shows why a more flexible EU would be a more effective entity. Stating it has to be all or nothing where there can be better outcomes for members is just a false premise. EU like all nation states should put their people first, not the politics.
For me the "cake and eat it"/"more flexible" approach simply doesn't work, a common rule book is needed if the EU is to evolve and become a fairer, better place for all it's citizens.
An absolute centralized "One size fits all" certainly doesn't work as we can see. The Euro alone shows it can't possibly benefit all EU citizens as it is pitched to benefit some at the expense of others. Forcing vastly different nations with different economies, cultures and conditions into one course of action each and every time is destined to failure.

Fairness can't be achieved by forcing the same size, shape on conditions on hundreds of millions of people with differing needs, environments and situations.
As I posted earlier maintaining a degree of flexibilty and diversity is essential but it shouldn't mean abandoning the hope of ever closer economic, political, social and monetary unity.

The US and UK have managed it so why not the EU....
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

piquant wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:52 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:59 pm Where does one draw a line? Norway, Iceland, Romania, Sweden, Turkey? And who gets to decide what the acceptable one true vision is?

One of the biggest acts by the EU, the introduction of the Euro, established very clearly members could pursue different agendas within the overall construct. Is that now not the position, and if so who jumps, everyone into the Euro or bin the Euro and have a requirement everyone has their own currency?

I don't want to say there shouldn't be a federal European superstate, I wouldn't want one in the here and now, but the future might look very different. But it's going to be a proper bun fight to go from the current situation to massive further amounts of alignment
All reasons why a clearer vision needs to be defined by the 27 if the EU is to move forward.
I think there's probably just as much strength in allowing vagaries, and also having the EU tread water for a while rather than seeking constant change.
The problem with treading water at the moment is that the EU needs to be seen as working towards a better Europe for all its citizens. Many of whom are, sometimes quite rightly, disillusioned with the EU.
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