OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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eldanielfire
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:12 pm
bimboman wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:59 pm
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:57 pm
mdaclarke wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:33 pm I would also add that Labour said that only 10,000 a8 citizens per year would arrive. Turned out it was more like 400,000 per year. Only out by about 4,000%.

The UK had 400k new foreign citizens a year? :shock:


Between 3 and 4 hundred for 15 years. (Net population rise lower as we also export people) but yes.

58.15 - 65.5 , 1996 - 2016.
But that is all migration? i.e. both EU & non-EU?
All. Which is why I've also laid blame at the Cameron government for continuing the Immigration attitude which at least non-EU immigration could be controlled. However by then I do think the damage was done. It only meant any possibility, if there was any, of the public trusting the establishment on the issue was gone.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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Looking at the data, EU migration up to 2004 remained under 35000. Then seesawed eventually reaching the highest in 2015 at 219k and then dropped heavily after the referendum.

Isn't the problem non-EU migration?
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by ChipSpike »

eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:17 pm
TranceNRG wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:59 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:51 pm
mdaclarke wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:33 pm
I would also add that Labour said that only 10,000 a8 citizens per year would arrive. Turned out it was more like 400,000 per year. Only out by about 4,000%. Destroyed any trust that the electorate had in New Labour. Tony Blair would have bee slaughtered had he stood in 2010. He chose a good time to step down.
Yes the scale of the misrepresentation/prediction they made was a factor also. It was here they got to the "criticising immigration = bigot" mentality while ironically most of that government joined the Labour party when it's stances were against unfettered immigration and against the EU. This really disconnected them from their main voting base and only shows the sheer lack of understanding and history of their own party and voter base. Heck a simply misunderstanding of immigration and how highly and desirable the UK is seen to be around the world. Largely because there has been a liberal tendency since the Disraeli-Gladstone era of politics put put Britain down.
Poor Miliband did try to change that (remember his tombstone :lol: )?
As I said about Starmer, Miliband comes over as inauthentic over the issue. Largely because he is and largely because Labour members/MPs/Labour people generally can't help themselves but show their anger/hatred of this position.

It's an attitude ingrained in parts of British culture, Disraeli commented how "Liberals loved every country but their own" in the 1800s and of course Orwell made criticisms of the British liberal establishments opinion of their own country as well in the 1930s.
You can see it writ large from posters on here. The level of vitriol for the lower classes in daring to vote for their own interests and reasons, and against the judgement of their self proclaimed betters, is funny, if it wasn't so sad.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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bimboman wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:59 pm
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:57 pm
mdaclarke wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:33 pm I would also add that Labour said that only 10,000 a8 citizens per year would arrive. Turned out it was more like 400,000 per year. Only out by about 4,000%.

The UK had 400k new foreign citizens a year? :shock:


Between 3 and 4 hundred for 15 years. (Net population rise lower as we also export people) but yes.

58.15 - 65.5 , 1996 - 2016.
I think it was letting you in that really did it
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:22 pm Looking at the data, EU migration up to 2004 remained under 35000. Then seesawed eventually reaching the highest in 2015 at 219k and then dropped heavily after the referendum.

Isn't the problem non-EU migration?

You realise 2004 is important date ?
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by sorCrer »

bimboman wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:25 pm
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:22 pm Looking at the data, EU migration up to 2004 remained under 35000. Then seesawed eventually reaching the highest in 2015 at 219k and then dropped heavily after the referendum.

Isn't the problem non-EU migration?

You realise 2004 is important date ?
Yes the EU8 joined. I'm just trying to get my head around the figures for eu vs non-eu.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:22 pm Looking at the data, EU migration up to 2004 remained under 35000. Then seesawed eventually reaching the highest in 2015 at 219k and then dropped heavily after the referendum.

Isn't the problem non-EU migration?
Image

It's both, Both Cameron and New Labour had it higher than ever before. At the time of the referendum EU migration was still higher than it had been prior to 1997 in total. Yes it had dips (financial crisis etc) but never back to the levels pre-1997.

Likewise it isn't just annual rates, there is a accumulative effect of continuing large rates of immigration as well that build up over time. There is a reason for example that Denmark, with a liberal Social Democratic party has taken some big steps on the cultural effects and changes to Danish culture and values of it.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:32 pm Likewise it isn't just annual rates, there is a accumulative effect of continuing large rates of immigration as well that build up over time. There is a reason for example that Denmark, with a liberal Social Democratic party has taken some big steps on the cultural effects and changes to Danish culture and values of it.
In my view, any attempt to preserve culture is doomed for long term failure. That isn't saying it isn't needed but it is just prolonging the reality that all of our cultures will become completely intertwined and eventually we will have a kind of complete cultural unification.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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shereblue wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:18 pm DD, or anyone really, before I drone on about Brexit, I noted you claimed to have seen Fatty Armitage taking a winning conversion yesterday.

An image I cannot now unsee.

My serious question however is where can you legally get Top 14 playoff coverage in the UK or were you at the French Embassy watching more important stuff than the G7?
I *maybe* watch it on a fire stick from ebay. Same as the current Ealing v Sarries game :idea:

But you can see it on twitter- he looks fairly trim tbf.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:48 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:32 pm Likewise it isn't just annual rates, there is a accumulative effect of continuing large rates of immigration as well that build up over time. There is a reason for example that Denmark, with a liberal Social Democratic party has taken some big steps on the cultural effects and changes to Danish culture and values of it.
In my view, any attempt to preserve culture is doomed for long term failure. That isn't saying it isn't needed but it is just prolonging the reality that all of our cultures will become completely intertwined and eventually we will have a kind of complete cultural unification.
People are happy with immigration when immigrants integrate. That doesn't mean it's one way, British people love the contributions of the Curries, West Indian cultural touches etc to British life for some superficial examples. But no coincidence they came when immigration was in the 10s of thousands.

People noticed in the 2000s integration was less smooth and occurring less because there was so much more it was easier to not integrate. It's less popular when there can be large enclaves which are resistant to immigration, which is only natural when large numbers come to one country. Lower rates to allow easier integration. It's also why high aussie and kiwi numbers can be absorbed more quickly. It is also why often Islamic immigration, which carries possibly the biggest difference in values in liberal freedoms to western culture, has the most resistance to assimilation of western culture and values are concerned to the west causes the most friction in virtually every country. This is supported by the fact Islamic populations in the west have become less integrated with bigger immigration rates in the past decade or two.

This is despite western countries are broadly more accepting of ethnic, cultural and religious differences. All the while Hindu's and Sikh's which technically religiously more different to traditionally western religious culture than Muslims but are more easily integrated and with less friction

Again Denmark have identified this problem and have taken some quite severe actions to force integration and the break-up of ghettos not seen as assimilating into Danish culture. We can also add it's not actually beneficial for immigrants or children of to not be assimilated into their local and national culture.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:48 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:32 pm Likewise it isn't just annual rates, there is a accumulative effect of continuing large rates of immigration as well that build up over time. There is a reason for example that Denmark, with a liberal Social Democratic party has taken some big steps on the cultural effects and changes to Danish culture and values of it.
In my view, any attempt to preserve culture is doomed for long term failure. That isn't saying it isn't needed but it is just prolonging the reality that all of our cultures will become completely intertwined and eventually we will have a kind of complete cultural unification.


This country is very very tolerant, it’s more that people feel they weren’t asked about the changes. Also it’s worth remembering that while those that came were fit (no health care pressure) and working (less benefits pressure) , they did have kids (school and social services not provisioned for), they did work for cheaper wages (depressed blue collar earnings), and in some cases didn’t integrate (not part of local working clubs, pubs, sports etc).
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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bimboman wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:13 pm This country is very very tolerant, it’s more that people feel they weren’t asked about the changes. Also it’s worth remembering that while those that came were fit (no health care pressure) and working (less benefits pressure) , they did have kids (school and social services not provisioned for), they did work for cheaper wages (depressed blue collar earnings), and in some cases didn’t integrate (not part of local working clubs, pubs, sports etc).
I like the UK generally. I have close family that emigrated 20+ years ago and my mother worked there for several years before retiring (social work in Stevenage/Luton). I've even considered buying a house there. Particularly like Cornwall and many other more rural areas. :thumbup:
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:02 pm
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:48 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:32 pm Likewise it isn't just annual rates, there is a accumulative effect of continuing large rates of immigration as well that build up over time. There is a reason for example that Denmark, with a liberal Social Democratic party has taken some big steps on the cultural effects and changes to Danish culture and values of it.
In my view, any attempt to preserve culture is doomed for long term failure. That isn't saying it isn't needed but it is just prolonging the reality that all of our cultures will become completely intertwined and eventually we will have a kind of complete cultural unification.
People are happy with immigration when immigrants integrate. That doesn't mean it's one way, British people love the contributions of the Curries, West Indian cultural touches etc to British life for some superficial examples. But no coincidence they came when immigration was in the 10s of thousands.

People noticed in the 2000s integration was less smooth and occurring less because there was so much more it was easier to not integrate. It's less popular when there can be large enclaves which are resistant to immigration, which is only natural when large numbers come to one country. Lower rates to allow easier integration. It's also why high aussie and kiwi numbers can be absorbed more quickly. It is also why often Islamic immigration, which carries possibly the biggest difference in values in liberal freedoms to western culture, has the most resistance to assimilation of western culture and values are concerned to the west causes the most friction in virtually every country. This is supported by the fact Islamic populations in the west have become less integrated with bigger immigration rates in the past decade or two.

This is despite western countries are broadly more accepting of ethnic, cultural and religious differences. All the while Hindu's and Sikh's which technically religiously more different to traditionally western religious culture than Muslims but are more easily integrated and with less friction

Again Denmark have identified this problem and have taken some quite severe actions to force integration and the break-up of ghettos not seen as assimilating into Danish culture. We can also add it's not actually beneficial for immigrants or children of to not be assimilated into their local and national culture.
And they especially don't like it if the existing population is given the impression that they are expected to change their way of life or values to accommodate the immigrant population (without any change or accommodation in return) or if it appears that cultural relativity is applied to the immigrant population so behaviours and attitudes that would not be accepted in the settled community are excused in the immigrant community.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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mdaclarke wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:59 pm
And they especially don't like it if the existing population is given the impression that they are expected to change their way of life or values to accommodate the immigrant population (without any change or accommodation in return) or if it appears that cultural relativity is applied to the immigrant population so behaviours and attitudes that would not be accepted in the settled community are excused in the immigrant community.
I certainly agree with that assessment. I would say no population in a successful, free, democratic country would do. Broadly speaking most EU populations and western populations want to see less immigration.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:31 pmI'm just trying to get my head around the figures for eu vs non-eu.
It's really easy to work out. The European nations that invaded massive parts of the planet and enforced their culture on those populations will have large non-EU migration from those places (how ironic they're told to "integrate" when they can speak the language and know the sports etc when they arrive). European nations that wanted non-EU migration will also have non-EU migration (big surprise, if you want it you get it). The UK is ticking both boxes. Finland meanwhile ticks neither box and has difficult language.

If you read books like Murray "Strange Death of Europe" that moan about all this, you can see one of the central lies really clearly. That non-EU migration is coming from random nations outside Europe and there's no connection between the places people come from and the places they go to. But the UK has a large-ish Zimbabwean (ex-UK colony) population and no significant Angolan (ex-Portuguese colony) population to speak of, in Portugal it's the reverse. France has large populations from Algeria, Senegal, Ivory Coast, DRC (ex-Belgium colony but French speaking), the UK does not.

If you look down the list of the foreign born populations in UK/France/Spain/Portugal (the big colonial powers), all the non-EU populations correspond closely to the ex-colonies of those places. Even the Netherlands, which had a comparatively tiny empire that stopped growing in the early 19th century, Suriname and Indonesia (ex-Dutch colonies) are very high up the list, for a non-English speaking European country they even have a large SA population the last time any part of SA was a Dutch colony was 200 years ago. These connections are really deep.

This is all very obvious. But there's more or less willful amnesia about a lot of this, non-EU migration isn't coming from a random set of countries and going to a random set of countries. The people arriving are already as "integrated" as they ever will be.

There's 2+ billion people on the planet that the UK imposed its culture (language, institutions, sports etc) upon. If only 0.1% of them are interested at all in emigrating to the UK that's 10s of millions of people, if only 1% of them actually do that's 10s of thousands. The only way this flow stops entirely is if all the nations the migrants are coming from have the same amount of prosperity and opportunity as the UK (or more). The UK had the biggest empire and oppressed the most people, so that's not going to happen any time soon.

So as long as the UK has any immigration system at all there will always be massive migration from South Asia and Africa. Because there'll always be people from there that meet any criteria set and are interested in moving to the UK. Brexit has made the UK less attractive to EU citizens compared to other EU nations. There's still economic opportunity, so Brexit has produced the biggest non-EU migration wave into the UK in history.

I doubt if Finland left the EU there would be the biggest non-European/EU migration wave in its history.
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:48 pm In my view, any attempt to preserve culture is doomed for long term failure. That isn't saying it isn't needed but it is just prolonging the reality that all of our cultures will become completely intertwined and eventually we will have a kind of complete cultural unification.
Nah, come on boet. Only in the countries which tried to make their culture the global culture by force and their more prosperous ex-colonies which also have that culture. Plus some Western European countries that have freely chosen that for themselves.

The chances of Eastern Europe/Africa/Asia "intertwining" anything that isn't there already is f**king zero.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:48 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:32 pm Likewise it isn't just annual rates, there is a accumulative effect of continuing large rates of immigration as well that build up over time. There is a reason for example that Denmark, with a liberal Social Democratic party has taken some big steps on the cultural effects and changes to Danish culture and values of it.
In my view, any attempt to preserve culture is doomed for long term failure. That isn't saying it isn't needed but it is just prolonging the reality that all of our cultures will become completely intertwined and eventually we will have a kind of complete cultural unification.
dominant cultures take over
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by iarmhiman »

ox wagon wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:21 pm
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:31 pmI'm just trying to get my head around the figures for eu vs non-eu.
It's really easy to work out. The European nations that invaded massive parts of the planet and enforced their culture on those populations will have large non-EU migration from those places (how ironic they're told to "integrate" when they can speak the language and know the sports etc when they arrive). European nations that wanted non-EU migration will also have non-EU migration (big surprise, if you want it you get it). The UK is ticking both boxes. Finland meanwhile ticks neither box and has difficult language.

If you read books like Murray "Strange Death of Europe" that moan about all this, you can see one of the central lies really clearly. That non-EU migration is coming from random nations outside Europe and there's no connection between the places people come from and the places they go to. But the UK has a large-ish Zimbabwean (ex-UK colony) population and no significant Angolan (ex-Portuguese colony) population to speak of, in Portugal it's the reverse. France has large populations from Algeria, Senegal, Ivory Coast, DRC (ex-Belgium colony but French speaking), the UK does not.

If you look down the list of the foreign born populations in UK/France/Spain/Portugal (the big colonial powers), all the non-EU populations correspond closely to the ex-colonies of those places. Even the Netherlands, which had a comparatively tiny empire that stopped growing in the early 19th century, Suriname and Indonesia (ex-Dutch colonies) are very high up the list, for a non-English speaking European country they even have a large SA population the last time any part of SA was a Dutch colony was 200 years ago. These connections are really deep.

This is all very obvious. But there's more or less willful amnesia about a lot of this, non-EU migration isn't coming from a random set of countries and going to a random set of countries. The people arriving are already as "integrated" as they ever will be.

There's 2+ billion people on the planet that the UK imposed its culture (language, institutions, sports etc) upon. If only 0.1% of them are interested at all in emigrating to the UK that's 10s of millions of people, if only 1% of them actually do that's 10s of thousands. The only way this flow stops entirely is if all the nations the migrants are coming from have the same amount of prosperity and opportunity as the UK (or more). The UK had the biggest empire and oppressed the most people, so that's not going to happen any time soon.

So as long as the UK has any immigration system at all there will always be massive migration from South Asia and Africa. Because there'll always be people from there that meet any criteria set and are interested in moving to the UK. Brexit has made the UK less attractive to EU citizens compared to other EU nations. There's still economic opportunity, so Brexit has produced the biggest non-EU migration wave into the UK in history.

I doubt if Finland left the EU there would be the biggest non-European/EU migration wave in its history.
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:48 pm In my view, any attempt to preserve culture is doomed for long term failure. That isn't saying it isn't needed but it is just prolonging the reality that all of our cultures will become completely intertwined and eventually we will have a kind of complete cultural unification.
Nah, come on boet. Only in the countries which tried to make their culture the global culture by force and their more prosperous ex-colonies which also have that culture. Plus some Western European countries that have freely chosen that for themselves.

The chances of Eastern Europe/Africa/Asia "intertwining" anything that isn't there already is f**king zero.
Good post
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

ox wagon wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:21 pm
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:31 pmI'm just trying to get my head around the figures for eu vs non-eu.
It's really easy to work out. The European nations that invaded massive parts of the planet and enforced their culture on those populations will have large non-EU migration from those places (how ironic they're told to "integrate" when they can speak the language and know the sports etc when they arrive). European nations that wanted non-EU migration will also have non-EU migration (big surprise, if you want it you get it). The UK is ticking both boxes. Finland meanwhile ticks neither box and has difficult language.
To be fair most nations have invaded most others and empires formed all around the world, it happens prior and around the Industrial revolution which allowed European countries to jump lightyears ahead.

If you read books like Murray "Strange Death of Europe" that moan about all this, you can see one of the central lies really clearly. That non-EU migration is coming from random nations outside Europe and there's no connection between the places people come from and the places they go to. But the UK has a large-ish Zimbabwean (ex-UK colony) population and no significant Angolan (ex-Portuguese colony) population to speak of, in Portugal it's the reverse. France has large populations from Algeria, Senegal, Ivory Coast, DRC (ex-Belgium colony but French speaking), the UK does not.

If you look down the list of the foreign born populations in UK/France/Spain/Portugal (the big colonial powers), all the non-EU populations correspond closely to the ex-colonies of those places. Even the Netherlands, which had a comparatively tiny empire that stopped growing in the early 19th century, Suriname and Indonesia (ex-Dutch colonies) are very high up the list, for a non-English speaking European country they even have a large SA population the last time any part of SA was a Dutch colony was 200 years ago. These connections are really deep.
This is true somewhat, but there are cases like ethnic Turks which where not colonised by those countries and in fact colonised parts of the rest of europe. Of course that doesn't explain why the UK is such a desirable destination for Poland and Romania of course.

This is all very obvious. But there's more or less willful amnesia about a lot of this, non-EU migration isn't coming from a random set of countries and going to a random set of countries. The people arriving are already as "integrated" as they ever will be.
I don't think this is true. Despite your valid points on why some particular migration destinations occur it doesn't explain why within the same former empire connection that are vast differences in cultural integration. After all Polish residency in the UK is far higher than any other in the past 20 years. Or why in such an interconnected world why European political elites (I include the UK as well) seems at such odds with the opinion of their populations and didn't think there should be reasonable limitations like with most policies. For example we seem to delay in recognizing the impacts means we are seeing increasingly firm or harsh rhetoric in French presidential candidates on immigration and immigration factors from all sides it seems.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by mdaclarke »

eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:47 pm
ox wagon wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:21 pm
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:31 pmI'm just trying to get my head around the figures for eu vs non-eu.
It's really easy to work out. The European nations that invaded massive parts of the planet and enforced their culture on those populations will have large non-EU migration from those places (how ironic they're told to "integrate" when they can speak the language and know the sports etc when they arrive). European nations that wanted non-EU migration will also have non-EU migration (big surprise, if you want it you get it). The UK is ticking both boxes. Finland meanwhile ticks neither box and has difficult language.
To be fair most nations have invaded most others and empires formed all around the world, it happens prior and around the Industrial revolution which allowed European countries to jump lightyears ahead.

If you read books like Murray "Strange Death of Europe" that moan about all this, you can see one of the central lies really clearly. That non-EU migration is coming from random nations outside Europe and there's no connection between the places people come from and the places they go to. But the UK has a large-ish Zimbabwean (ex-UK colony) population and no significant Angolan (ex-Portuguese colony) population to speak of, in Portugal it's the reverse. France has large populations from Algeria, Senegal, Ivory Coast, DRC (ex-Belgium colony but French speaking), the UK does not.

If you look down the list of the foreign born populations in UK/France/Spain/Portugal (the big colonial powers), all the non-EU populations correspond closely to the ex-colonies of those places. Even the Netherlands, which had a comparatively tiny empire that stopped growing in the early 19th century, Suriname and Indonesia (ex-Dutch colonies) are very high up the list, for a non-English speaking European country they even have a large SA population the last time any part of SA was a Dutch colony was 200 years ago. These connections are really deep.
This is true somewhat, but there are cases like ethnic Turks which where not colonised by those countries and in fact colonised parts of the rest of europe. Of course that doesn't explain why the UK is such a desirable destination for Poland and Romania of course.

This is all very obvious. But there's more or less willful amnesia about a lot of this, non-EU migration isn't coming from a random set of countries and going to a random set of countries. The people arriving are already as "integrated" as they ever will be.
I don't think this is true. Despite your valid points on why some particular migration destinations occur it doesn't explain why within the same former empire connection that are vast differences in cultural integration. After all Polish residency in the UK is far higher than any other in the past 20 years. Or why in such an interconnected world why European political elites (I include the UK as well) seems at such odds with the opinion of their populations and didn't think there should be reasonable limitations like with most policies. For example we seem to delay in recognizing the impacts means we are seeing increasingly firm or harsh rhetoric in French presidential candidates on immigration and immigration factors from all sides it seems.
I've never understood the mindset of people who move to the UK and then go on about how racist it is and how much they dislike the country. Would have thought that they wouldn't want to move to a racist country that they dislike.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by sorCrer »

ox wagon wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:21 pm
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:31 pmI'm just trying to get my head around the figures for eu vs non-eu.
It's really easy to work out. The European nations that invaded massive parts of the planet and enforced their culture on those populations will have large non-EU migration from those places (how ironic they're told to "integrate" when they can speak the language and know the sports etc when they arrive). European nations that wanted non-EU migration will also have non-EU migration (big surprise, if you want it you get it). The UK is ticking both boxes. Finland meanwhile ticks neither box and has difficult language.

If you read books like Murray "Strange Death of Europe" that moan about all this, you can see one of the central lies really clearly. That non-EU migration is coming from random nations outside Europe and there's no connection between the places people come from and the places they go to. But the UK has a large-ish Zimbabwean (ex-UK colony) population and no significant Angolan (ex-Portuguese colony) population to speak of, in Portugal it's the reverse. France has large populations from Algeria, Senegal, Ivory Coast, DRC (ex-Belgium colony but French speaking), the UK does not.

If you look down the list of the foreign born populations in UK/France/Spain/Portugal (the big colonial powers), all the non-EU populations correspond closely to the ex-colonies of those places. Even the Netherlands, which had a comparatively tiny empire that stopped growing in the early 19th century, Suriname and Indonesia (ex-Dutch colonies) are very high up the list, for a non-English speaking European country they even have a large SA population the last time any part of SA was a Dutch colony was 200 years ago. These connections are really deep.

This is all very obvious. But there's more or less willful amnesia about a lot of this, non-EU migration isn't coming from a random set of countries and going to a random set of countries. The people arriving are already as "integrated" as they ever will be.

There's 2+ billion people on the planet that the UK imposed its culture (language, institutions, sports etc) upon. If only 0.1% of them are interested at all in emigrating to the UK that's 10s of millions of people, if only 1% of them actually do that's 10s of thousands. The only way this flow stops entirely is if all the nations the migrants are coming from have the same amount of prosperity and opportunity as the UK (or more). The UK had the biggest empire and oppressed the most people, so that's not going to happen any time soon.

So as long as the UK has any immigration system at all there will always be massive migration from South Asia and Africa. Because there'll always be people from there that meet any criteria set and are interested in moving to the UK. Brexit has made the UK less attractive to EU citizens compared to other EU nations. There's still economic opportunity, so Brexit has produced the biggest non-EU migration wave into the UK in history.

I doubt if Finland left the EU there would be the biggest non-European/EU migration wave in its history.
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:48 pm In my view, any attempt to preserve culture is doomed for long term failure. That isn't saying it isn't needed but it is just prolonging the reality that all of our cultures will become completely intertwined and eventually we will have a kind of complete cultural unification.
Nah, come on boet. Only in the countries which tried to make their culture the global culture by force and their more prosperous ex-colonies which also have that culture. Plus some Western European countries that have freely chosen that for themselves.

The chances of Eastern Europe/Africa/Asia "intertwining" anything that isn't there already is f**king zero.
Ah my son. It's good to hear from you. Please call your mum, she is worried about you.
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

DragsterDriver wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:35 am
Willie Falloon wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:02 am
DragsterDriver wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:12 am Big news, Northern Ireland isn’t in the U.K.
Errr, yes we are.
Not according to macron.
I've watched his speech (in French) at the G7 summit and he didn't say this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQaVIoEjOM

;)
Last edited by clementinfrance on Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by shereblue »

mdaclarke wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:30 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:47 pm
ox wagon wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:21 pm
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:31 pmI'm just trying to get my head around the figures for eu vs non-eu.
It's really easy to work out. The European nations that invaded massive parts of the planet and enforced their culture on those populations will have large non-EU migration from those places (how ironic they're told to "integrate" when they can speak the language and know the sports etc when they arrive). European nations that wanted non-EU migration will also have non-EU migration (big surprise, if you want it you get it). The UK is ticking both boxes. Finland meanwhile ticks neither box and has difficult language.
To be fair most nations have invaded most others and empires formed all around the world, it happens prior and around the Industrial revolution which allowed European countries to jump lightyears ahead.

If you read books like Murray "Strange Death of Europe" that moan about all this, you can see one of the central lies really clearly. That non-EU migration is coming from random nations outside Europe and there's no connection between the places people come from and the places they go to. But the UK has a large-ish Zimbabwean (ex-UK colony) population and no significant Angolan (ex-Portuguese colony) population to speak of, in Portugal it's the reverse. France has large populations from Algeria, Senegal, Ivory Coast, DRC (ex-Belgium colony but French speaking), the UK does not.

If you look down the list of the foreign born populations in UK/France/Spain/Portugal (the big colonial powers), all the non-EU populations correspond closely to the ex-colonies of those places. Even the Netherlands, which had a comparatively tiny empire that stopped growing in the early 19th century, Suriname and Indonesia (ex-Dutch colonies) are very high up the list, for a non-English speaking European country they even have a large SA population the last time any part of SA was a Dutch colony was 200 years ago. These connections are really deep.
This is true somewhat, but there are cases like ethnic Turks which where not colonised by those countries and in fact colonised parts of the rest of europe. Of course that doesn't explain why the UK is such a desirable destination for Poland and Romania of course.

This is all very obvious. But there's more or less willful amnesia about a lot of this, non-EU migration isn't coming from a random set of countries and going to a random set of countries. The people arriving are already as "integrated" as they ever will be.
I don't think this is true. Despite your valid points on why some particular migration destinations occur it doesn't explain why within the same former empire connection that are vast differences in cultural integration. After all Polish residency in the UK is far higher than any other in the past 20 years. Or why in such an interconnected world why European political elites (I include the UK as well) seems at such odds with the opinion of their populations and didn't think there should be reasonable limitations like with most policies. For example we seem to delay in recognizing the impacts means we are seeing increasingly firm or harsh rhetoric in French presidential candidates on immigration and immigration factors from all sides it seems.
I've never understood the mindset of people who move to the UK and then go on about how racist it is and how much they dislike the country. Would have thought that they wouldn't want to move to a racist country that they dislike.
At least move to a racist country you like. ;)
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by shereblue »

TranceNRG wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:02 pm
bimboman wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:59 pm
sorCrer wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:57 pm
mdaclarke wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:33 pm I would also add that Labour said that only 10,000 a8 citizens per year would arrive. Turned out it was more like 400,000 per year. Only out by about 4,000%.

The UK had 400k new foreign citizens a year? :shock:


Between 3 and 4 hundred for 15 years. (Net population rise lower as we also export people) but yes.

58.15 - 65.5 , 1996 - 2016.
Didn't something like 2 million+ Polish move to the UK?
That sounds high but there are of course different types of "coming here".

150,000 Poles were recorded as being here shortly after WW2. All ifs and maybes but if the Polish airmen in particular hadn't come here, there is a reasonable argument that the history of the UK and also Europe could have panned out very differently.

Today, whatever their number, they are just one valued strand of the rich tapestry of migrants, including Australians, that constitute modern British culture in the face of a stubborn, if dying, breed of elderly moaners.

Another breed of anti migrant cheeseparer on our very forum ironically seems to come from white, strains of anglo saxon migrant stock which itself had cheerfully overturned indigenous culture abroad by force and quite vindictive practices.

In the case of Australia, the indigenous population there was swamped by a tidal wave of migrants that imposed a dreary Victorian and certainly "alien" monoculture. Those migrants constituted 98% of the population.

Fortunately, as many on here acknowledge, the UK is a society that (recalcitrant pockets and specific problems aside) is broadly welcoming to migrants.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by shereblue »

DragsterDriver wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:56 pm
shereblue wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:18 pm DD, or anyone really, before I drone on about Brexit, I noted you claimed to have seen Fatty Armitage taking a winning conversion yesterday.

An image I cannot now unsee.

My serious question however is where can you legally get Top 14 playoff coverage in the UK or were you at the French Embassy watching more important stuff than the G7?
I *maybe* watch it on a fire stick from ebay. Same as the current Ealing v Sarries game :idea:

But you can see it on twitter- he looks fairly trim tbf.
:thumbup:

Fatty A and Fatty B(asta') jackalled Toulon to the Brennus back in the day. Hadn't realised Wilko was superfluous and that Fatty A could have kicked his own turnovers thank you very much :shock:
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

What Macron actually said. The horrible beast.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1404095831238709250
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by iarmhiman »

Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:22 pm What Macron actually said. The horrible beast.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1404095831238709250
Just as I suspected.

The EU are a rules based bloc.

This Johnson government rely on spin and bluster.

Then again he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

One side ( the one we don't see) is the one currently negotiating.
The other is to his fans and backbenchers worried he'll not diversify enough away from EU
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by ChipSpike »

Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:22 pm What Macron actually said. The horrible beast.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1404095831238709250
Thats after he told Johnson its not as if NI is the same country. Much like the mea culpa from the EU Commission after they were told they really shouldn't close the NI border.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by message #2527204 »

iarmhiman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:43 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:22 pm What Macron actually said. The horrible beast.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1404095831238709250
Just as I suspected.

The EU are a rules based bloc.

This Johnson government rely on spin and bluster.

Then again he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

One side ( the one we don't see) is the one currently negotiating.
The other is to his fans and backbenchers worried he'll not diversify enough away from EU
That's him climbing out of the hole he dug himself yesterday, after making yet another massive gaffe like when he called the AZ vaccine quasi-ineffective.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by sorCrer »

ChipSpike wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:49 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:22 pm What Macron actually said. The horrible beast.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1404095831238709250
Thats after he told Johnson its not as if NI is the same country. Much like the mea culpa from the EU Commission after they were told they really shouldn't close the NI border.
Surely the EU have to close their borders?
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by iarmhiman »

message #2527204 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:07 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:43 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:22 pm What Macron actually said. The horrible beast.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1404095831238709250
Just as I suspected.

The EU are a rules based bloc.

This Johnson government rely on spin and bluster.

Then again he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

One side ( the one we don't see) is the one currently negotiating.
The other is to his fans and backbenchers worried he'll not diversify enough away from EU
That's him climbing out of the hole he dug himself yesterday, after making yet another massive gaffe like when he called the AZ vaccine quasi-ineffective.
That's what the tabloid media in the UK would say.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by bimboman »

iarmhiman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:28 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:07 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:43 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:22 pm What Macron actually said. The horrible beast.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1404095831238709250
Just as I suspected.

The EU are a rules based bloc.

This Johnson government rely on spin and bluster.

Then again he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

One side ( the one we don't see) is the one currently negotiating.
The other is to his fans and backbenchers worried he'll not diversify enough away from EU
That's him climbing out of the hole he dug himself yesterday, after making yet another massive gaffe like when he called the AZ vaccine quasi-ineffective.
That's what the tabloid media in the UK would say.


Well in this case hats actually what was said later.....

He made another big boo boo .....

He’s ganna keep this up till the election next year in France.

He’s a f ucking menace.
iarmhiman
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by iarmhiman »

bimboman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:32 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:28 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:07 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:43 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:22 pm What Macron actually said. The horrible beast.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1404095831238709250
Just as I suspected.

The EU are a rules based bloc.

This Johnson government rely on spin and bluster.

Then again he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

One side ( the one we don't see) is the one currently negotiating.
The other is to his fans and backbenchers worried he'll not diversify enough away from EU
That's him climbing out of the hole he dug himself yesterday, after making yet another massive gaffe like when he called the AZ vaccine quasi-ineffective.
That's what the tabloid media in the UK would say.


Well in this case hats actually what was said later.....

He made another big boo boo .....

He’s ganna keep this up till the election next year in France.

He’s a f ucking menace.
Barnier is going to run. Not a chance Macron will win.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by bimboman »

iarmhiman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:33 pm
bimboman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:32 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:28 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:07 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:43 pm

Just as I suspected.

The EU are a rules based bloc.

This Johnson government rely on spin and bluster.

Then again he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

One side ( the one we don't see) is the one currently negotiating.
The other is to his fans and backbenchers worried he'll not diversify enough away from EU
That's him climbing out of the hole he dug himself yesterday, after making yet another massive gaffe like when he called the AZ vaccine quasi-ineffective.
That's what the tabloid media in the UK would say.


Well in this case hats actually what was said later.....

He made another big boo boo .....

He’s ganna keep this up till the election next year in France.

He’s a f ucking menace.
Barnier is going to run. Not a chance Macron will win.


Who for ?
Sawtooth the Beaver
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

ChipSpike wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:49 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:22 pm What Macron actually said. The horrible beast.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1404095831238709250
Thats after he told Johnson its not as if NI is the same country. Much like the mea culpa from the EU Commission after they were told they really shouldn't close the NI border.
Verifiable reference or hear say?

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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Edinburgh01 »

clementinfrance wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:23 am
DragsterDriver wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:35 am
Willie Falloon wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:02 am
DragsterDriver wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:12 am Big news, Northern Ireland isn’t in the U.K.
Errr, yes we are.
Not according to macron.
I've watched his speech (in French) at the G7 summit and he didn't say this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQaVIoEjOM

;)
Well since he did not say it in his speech but earlier in bi-lateral talks with Johnson that is hardly surprising.

The Elysee then said Macron did not say that Northern Ireland was not part of the UK constitutionally, but actually was referring the fact that Northern Ireland is physically separate from the rest of the UK. Though I am unclear why that is relevant, but I also do not know the full context other than what is reported so that may have seemed a sensible response to what he believed was being said.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by iarmhiman »

bimboman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:36 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:33 pm
bimboman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:32 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:28 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:07 pm

That's him climbing out of the hole he dug himself yesterday, after making yet another massive gaffe like when he called the AZ vaccine quasi-ineffective.
That's what the tabloid media in the UK would say.


Well in this case hats actually what was said later.....

He made another big boo boo .....

He’s ganna keep this up till the election next year in France.

He’s a f ucking menace.
Barnier is going to run. Not a chance Macron will win.


Who for ?
Les Republicains probably
piquant
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by piquant »

ChipSpike wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:24 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:17 pm
TranceNRG wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:59 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:51 pm
mdaclarke wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:33 pm
I would also add that Labour said that only 10,000 a8 citizens per year would arrive. Turned out it was more like 400,000 per year. Only out by about 4,000%. Destroyed any trust that the electorate had in New Labour. Tony Blair would have bee slaughtered had he stood in 2010. He chose a good time to step down.
Yes the scale of the misrepresentation/prediction they made was a factor also. It was here they got to the "criticising immigration = bigot" mentality while ironically most of that government joined the Labour party when it's stances were against unfettered immigration and against the EU. This really disconnected them from their main voting base and only shows the sheer lack of understanding and history of their own party and voter base. Heck a simply misunderstanding of immigration and how highly and desirable the UK is seen to be around the world. Largely because there has been a liberal tendency since the Disraeli-Gladstone era of politics put put Britain down.
Poor Miliband did try to change that (remember his tombstone :lol: )?
As I said about Starmer, Miliband comes over as inauthentic over the issue. Largely because he is and largely because Labour members/MPs/Labour people generally can't help themselves but show their anger/hatred of this position.

It's an attitude ingrained in parts of British culture, Disraeli commented how "Liberals loved every country but their own" in the 1800s and of course Orwell made criticisms of the British liberal establishments opinion of their own country as well in the 1930s.
You can see it writ large from posters on here. The level of vitriol for the lower classes in daring to vote for their own interests and reasons, and against the judgement of their self proclaimed betters, is funny, if it wasn't so sad.
What they perceive as their interests based on simplistic nationalistic bollox. Which leaves the ongoing concern of when this doesn't deliver the sunlit uplands and unicorns for all what populist movement will gain momentum next?
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by ChipSpike »

piquant wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:13 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:24 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:17 pm
TranceNRG wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:59 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:51 pm

Yes the scale of the misrepresentation/prediction they made was a factor also. It was here they got to the "criticising immigration = bigot" mentality while ironically most of that government joined the Labour party when it's stances were against unfettered immigration and against the EU. This really disconnected them from their main voting base and only shows the sheer lack of understanding and history of their own party and voter base. Heck a simply misunderstanding of immigration and how highly and desirable the UK is seen to be around the world. Largely because there has been a liberal tendency since the Disraeli-Gladstone era of politics put put Britain down.
Poor Miliband did try to change that (remember his tombstone :lol: )?
As I said about Starmer, Miliband comes over as inauthentic over the issue. Largely because he is and largely because Labour members/MPs/Labour people generally can't help themselves but show their anger/hatred of this position.

It's an attitude ingrained in parts of British culture, Disraeli commented how "Liberals loved every country but their own" in the 1800s and of course Orwell made criticisms of the British liberal establishments opinion of their own country as well in the 1930s.
You can see it writ large from posters on here. The level of vitriol for the lower classes in daring to vote for their own interests and reasons, and against the judgement of their self proclaimed betters, is funny, if it wasn't so sad.
What they perceive as their interests based on simplistic nationalistic bollox. Which leaves the ongoing concern of when this doesn't deliver the sunlit uplands and unicorns for all what populist movement will gain momentum next?
Lol. You prove my point. Also initial indications are that the lowly paid, as we are seeing in the hospitality industry, are going to get pay rises. Not so much unicorns or sunlit uplands, just more cash in their pocket.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by piquant »

ChipSpike wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:43 pm
piquant wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:13 pm
ChipSpike wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:24 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:17 pm
TranceNRG wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:59 pm

Poor Miliband did try to change that (remember his tombstone :lol: )?
As I said about Starmer, Miliband comes over as inauthentic over the issue. Largely because he is and largely because Labour members/MPs/Labour people generally can't help themselves but show their anger/hatred of this position.

It's an attitude ingrained in parts of British culture, Disraeli commented how "Liberals loved every country but their own" in the 1800s and of course Orwell made criticisms of the British liberal establishments opinion of their own country as well in the 1930s.
You can see it writ large from posters on here. The level of vitriol for the lower classes in daring to vote for their own interests and reasons, and against the judgement of their self proclaimed betters, is funny, if it wasn't so sad.

What they perceive as their interests based on simplistic nationalistic bollox. Which leaves the ongoing concern of when this doesn't deliver the sunlit uplands and unicorns for all what populist movement will gain momentum next?
Lol. You prove my point. Also initial indications are that the lowly paid, as we are seeing in the hospitality industry, are going to get pay rises. Not so much unicorns or sunlit uplands, just more cash in their pocket.
Pay rises, but also rising costs, it's a bit early tbh to know if people have more cash in their pocket, or more disposable income, call it what you will. And even accepting they get a bigger slice of the pie it's still a bad idea to take a bigger slice of a smaller pie, the good idea would have been to look at a better distribution of the bigger pie. Brexit remains an inelegant and largely incorrect answer to some reasonable concerns (and some very unreasonable concerns)

Also fwiw there has been a rise in average lower earnings, but much of that has been driven by low paid jobs being lost to the pandemic (and that more than Brexit) which has reduced the number of badly paid jobs dragging down the average. And I don't think that's quite what's wanted. Outside that wage inflation has for now been low/normal
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clementinfrance
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

Edinburgh01 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:47 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:23 am
DragsterDriver wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:35 am
Willie Falloon wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:02 am
DragsterDriver wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:12 am Big news, Northern Ireland isn’t in the U.K.
Errr, yes we are.
Not according to macron.
I've watched his speech (in French) at the G7 summit and he didn't say this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQaVIoEjOM

;)
Well since he did not say it in his speech but earlier in bi-lateral talks with Johnson that is hardly surprising.

The Elysee then said Macron did not say that Northern Ireland was not part of the UK constitutionally, but actually was referring the fact that Northern Ireland is physically separate from the rest of the UK. Though I am unclear why that is relevant, but I also do not know the full context other than what is reported so that may have seemed a sensible response to what he believed was being said.
Reportedly... according to a UK government source... according to "The Telegraph"...
sources say... Macron is understood to have retorted...

Love him or loathe him Macron is a very, very intelligent bloke.
My guess is that either he made a mistake in his use of the English language which would be very unusual for him, or the UK govt is just spinning this like they do everything else...
Last edited by clementinfrance on Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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