Planet Rugby Forum

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:43 pm**

The Irish have been pretty sensible lately unlike the frogs.

Brexit talks ‘on a knife edge’, says Irish leader
Irish premier Micheal Martin has urged the UK and EU to use their “common sense” and reach a post-Brexit trade deal.

The Taoiseach said in an interview with RTE: "I think the situation is serious and the three issues that prove very difficult to reconcile all the way through the talks are still there to be dealt with.

"Namely, the level field, which is proving particularly difficult, fisheries and of course the dispute resolution mechanism to deal with the level playing field issue.

"My sense is that we are at a very difficult juncture and it's important that the Zoom talks use every piece of creativity they can, that the participants try and get a resolution, because a no-deal would be very damaging to all concerned, to the United Kingdom, to the Irish economy and indeed to the economies of member states as well.

“It's very, very important that common sense prevails here and that a deal is done.”

Mr Martin said he thought the chances of a deal were 50-50 and added: “Things are on a knife edge and it is serious.”

"I don't think one can be overly optimistic about a resolution emerging and my sense, having spoken to some of the key principals here, that this is a very challenging issue to resolve, particularly around the level playing field.

"The important dimension here is to get a deal and to make sure it's a deal that works in the medium to longer term because a good sustainable relationship with the UK and EU is what makes sense for the medium term.

“If it takes an extra couple of days to get this resolved, it's better to do that than to rush this.”

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:45 pm**

TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:43 pm The Irish have been pretty sensible lately unlike the frogs.
Brexit talks ‘on a knife edge’, says Irish leader
Irish premier Micheal Martin has urged the UK and EU to use their “common sense” and reach a post-Brexit trade deal.

The Taoiseach said in an interview with RTE: "I think the situation is serious and the three issues that prove very difficult to reconcile all the way through the talks are still there to be dealt with.

"Namely, the level field, which is proving particularly difficult, fisheries and of course the dispute resolution mechanism to deal with the level playing field issue.

"My sense is that we are at a very difficult juncture and it's important that the Zoom talks use every piece of creativity they can, that the participants try and get a resolution, because a no-deal would be very damaging to all concerned, to the United Kingdom, to the Irish economy and indeed to the economies of member states as well.

“It's very, very important that common sense prevails here and that a deal is done.”

Mr Martin said he thought the chances of a deal were 50-50 and added: “Things are on a knife edge and it is serious.”

"I don't think one can be overly optimistic about a resolution emerging and my sense, having spoken to some of the key principals here, that this is a very challenging issue to resolve, particularly around the level playing field.

"The important dimension here is to get a deal and to make sure it's a deal that works in the medium to longer term because a good sustainable relationship with the UK and EU is what makes sense for the medium term.

“If it takes an extra couple of days to get this resolved, it's better to do that than to rush this.”

Only thing we care about is the border.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:48 pm**

I think the politicians care about the economy. They know Ireland will be the hardest hit in the EU if there's a no deal plus the border as you said (but I don't think it's a big issue as it's made out to be. The internal market bill is not going to break the GFA but it will give the EU a headache).

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:49 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:43 pm Level playing field is the biggest issue for the EU.

Fish is a small problem and wont economically hurt the EU.

The biggest abusers of the current level playing field rules within the EU are Germany followed by France. Many times worse than the UK has ever been. Even this is a fake argument to try and keep ECJ over sight.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm**

Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:55 pm**

bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:49 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:43 pm Level playing field is the biggest issue for the EU.

Fish is a small problem and wont economically hurt the EU.

The biggest abusers of the current level playing field rules within the EU are Germany followed by France. Many times worse than the UK has ever been. Even this is a fake argument to try and keep ECJ over sight.

But you're no longer a member so the point is useless. Remember this is an EU condition. Take it or leave it.

Now that you wont be getting the gold standard US trade deal, you need to concede more "if" you want that access to the single market

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm**

TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.

But they can. That's the difference

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:58 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:55 pm
bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:49 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:43 pm Level playing field is the biggest issue for the EU.

Fish is a small problem and wont economically hurt the EU.

The biggest abusers of the current level playing field rules within the EU are Germany followed by France. Many times worse than the UK has ever been. Even this is a fake argument to try and keep ECJ over sight.
But you're no longer a member so the point is useless. Remember this is an EU condition. Take it or leave it.

Now that you wont be getting the gold standard US trade deal, you need to concede more "if" you want that access to the single market

It’s a condition which the EU two biggest countries ignore. We are still under EU regulation but even leaving we behave better than Germany and France.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:59 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.
But they can. That's the difference

Which is why the demand is ludicrous.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:00 pm**

bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:58 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:55 pm
bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:49 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:43 pm Level playing field is the biggest issue for the EU.

Fish is a small problem and wont economically hurt the EU.

The biggest abusers of the current level playing field rules within the EU are Germany followed by France. Many times worse than the UK has ever been. Even this is a fake argument to try and keep ECJ over sight.
But you're no longer a member so the point is useless. Remember this is an EU condition. Take it or leave it.

Now that you wont be getting the gold standard US trade deal, you need to concede more "if" you want that access to the single market

It’s a condition which the EU two biggest countries ignore. We are still under EU regulation but even leaving we behave better than Germany and France.

So what. This is realpolitik not good morals.

Mind you let's see how well behaved you will be with this internal market bill. I doubt it will be that well behaved

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:00 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.
But they can. That's the difference

It's not a f**king level playing field then is it?

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 pm**

Point is neither are good at following EU rules and UK has higher standards than almost all the countries in the EU. This is just a dirty tactic by EU to make sure UK don't prosper outside the EU.
If they continue to demand the BS level playing field condition to the UK to EU rules, there certainly will be no deal. But I suspect both sides want a deal and trying to make compromises to find a deal that will be acceptable to both parties. I still believe there will be a deal.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 pm**

bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:59 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.
But they can. That's the difference

Which is why the demand is ludicrous.

But you need the deal and the EU won't back down on that unless there is a proper governance body set up to adjudicate.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:02 pm**

message #2527204 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:00 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.
But they can. That's the difference
It's not a f**king level playing field then is it?

For the EU it is.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:03 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 pm
bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:59 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.
But they can. That's the difference

Which is why the demand is ludicrous.
But you need the deal and the EU won't back down on that unless there is a proper governance body set up to adjudicate.

We need the deal, EU don't...

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:03 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:02 pm
message #2527204 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:00 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.
But they can. That's the difference
It's not a f**king level playing field then is it?
For the EU it is.

No, it’s exactly not for the EU ...... the two largest countries abuse the internal rules.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:03 pm**

TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 pm Point is neither are good at following EU rules and UK has higher standards than almost all the countries in the EU. This is just a dirty tactic by EU to make sure UK don't prosper outside the EU.
If they continue to demand the BS level playing field condition to the UK to EU rules, there certainly will be no deal. But I suspect both sides want a deal and trying to make compromises to find a deal that will be acceptable to both parties. I still believe there will be a deal.

Go it alone then without a trade deal. It's in your hands.

Hell do a deal with your country Australia. They could do with the business after the reaming China is giving their economy

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:04 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 pm
bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:59 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.
But they can. That's the difference

Which is why the demand is ludicrous.
But you need the deal and the EU won't back down on that unless there is a proper governance body set up to adjudicate.

We can have the same governance provision as Canada and Japan of you like,

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:05 pm**

TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:03 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 pm
bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:59 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.
But they can. That's the difference

Which is why the demand is ludicrous.
But you need the deal and the EU won't back down on that unless there is a proper governance body set up to adjudicate.
We need the deal, EU don't...

It's you that needs the deal. EU will be fine regardless .

EU has bigger problems right now

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:05 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 pm
bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:59 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.
But they can. That's the difference

Which is why the demand is ludicrous.
But you need the deal and the EU won't back down on that unless there is a proper governance body set up to adjudicate.

We're happy with that, as it will level the playing field. But an international governance body, so when the germans and french cheat, we can demand reparation.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:06 pm**

bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:04 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 pm
bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:59 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:53 pm Good point Bimbo. I believethose 2 countries have broke have the rules far more times than the UK.
But they can. That's the difference

Which is why the demand is ludicrous.
But you need the deal and the EU won't back down on that unless there is a proper governance body set up to adjudicate.

We can have the same governance provision as Canada and Japan of you like,

Or how about no deal .

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:05 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:03 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 pm
bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:59 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 pm

But they can. That's the difference

Which is why the demand is ludicrous.
But you need the deal and the EU won't back down on that unless there is a proper governance body set up to adjudicate.
We need the deal, EU don't...
It's you that needs the deal. EU will be fine regardless .

EU has bigger problems right now

And so we go back to page one of the first Brexit thread

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 pm**

EU certainly won't be fine, even with a deal. They will be in a even bigger mess without a deal. Yes UK will endure a few difficult years but they will come out stronger. EU will have a powerful and an angry neighbour.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:08 pm**

message #2527204 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:05 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:03 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 pm
bimboman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:59 pm

Which is why the demand is ludicrous.
But you need the deal and the EU won't back down on that unless there is a proper governance body set up to adjudicate.
We need the deal, EU don't...
It's you that needs the deal. EU will be fine regardless .

EU has bigger problems right now
And so we go back to page one of the first Brexit thread

There was talk about Hungary and Poland leaving. I'd love that personally. You can set up your own bloc with them

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:09 pm**

TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 pm EU certainly won't be fine, even with a deal. They will be in a even bigger mess without a deal. Yes UK will endure a few difficult years but they will come out stronger. EU will have a powerful and an angry neighbour.

And we protect from that angry neighbour by not giving them access to the single market

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:11 pm**

Deal's done imo, current theatre is a sales pitch to both sides.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:11 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:09 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 pm EU certainly won't be fine, even with a deal. They will be in a even bigger mess without a deal. Yes UK will endure a few difficult years but they will come out stronger. EU will have a powerful and an angry neighbour.
And we protect from that angry neighbour by not giving them access to the single market

Oh we have access to the single market, just have to pay tariffs. Unlucky for the EU, the biggest EU countries (that actually contribute to the EU budget), have a trade surplus with the UK so they will be hit just as hard if not harder.

And lets not forget those riot loving frogs won't have access to the UK waters

Wonder how the tough guy Macron is going to sell that to the public.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:11 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:08 pm
message #2527204 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:05 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:03 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 pm

But you need the deal and the EU won't back down on that unless there is a proper governance body set up to adjudicate.
We need the deal, EU don't...
It's you that needs the deal. EU will be fine regardless .

EU has bigger problems right now
And so we go back to page one of the first Brexit thread
There was talk about Hungary and Poland leaving. I'd love that personally. You can set up your own bloc with them

There's talk about Macron wanting to exclude the eastern countries from his grand projet for the united states of europe.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:13 pm**

Rugby2023 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:11 pm Deal's done imo, current theatre is a sales pitch to both sides.

I sometimes wonder if that's the case however surely they won't go to these lengths for the sake of 'putting on a show'. I do think they are very close and the remaining issues will be resolved in the next few days.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:16 pm**

TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:11 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:09 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 pm EU certainly won't be fine, even with a deal. They will be in a even bigger mess without a deal. Yes UK will endure a few difficult years but they will come out stronger. EU will have a powerful and an angry neighbour.
And we protect from that angry neighbour by not giving them access to the single market
Oh we have access to the single market, just have to pay tariffs. Unlucky for the EU, the biggest EU countries (that actually contribute to the EU budget), have a trade surplus with the UK so they will be hit just as hard if not harder.

Just have to pay tarriffs. No big deal.

Thats exactly how the EU will make UK goods incredibly expensive so that internal market goods have no competition to worry about from the UK.

You have the Commonwealth though.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:17 pm**

message #2527204 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:11 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:08 pm
message #2527204 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:05 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:03 pm

We need the deal, EU don't...
It's you that needs the deal. EU will be fine regardless .

EU has bigger problems right now
And so we go back to page one of the first Brexit thread
There was talk about Hungary and Poland leaving. I'd love that personally. You can set up your own bloc with them
There's talk about Macron wanting to exclude the eastern countries from his grand projet for the united states of europe.

He has my backing

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:18 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:16 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:11 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:09 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 pm EU certainly won't be fine, even with a deal. They will be in a even bigger mess without a deal. Yes UK will endure a few difficult years but they will come out stronger. EU will have a powerful and an angry neighbour.
And we protect from that angry neighbour by not giving them access to the single market
Oh we have access to the single market, just have to pay tariffs. Unlucky for the EU, the biggest EU countries (that actually contribute to the EU budget), have a trade surplus with the UK so they will be hit just as hard if not harder.
Just have to pay tarriffs. No big deal.

Thats exactly how the EU will make UK goods incredibly expensive so that internal market goods have no competition to worry about from the UK.

You have the Commonwealth though.

WTO doesn't allow that. Well it does, but allows retaliation.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:19 pm**

message #2527204 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:18 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:16 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:11 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:09 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 pm EU certainly won't be fine, even with a deal. They will be in a even bigger mess without a deal. Yes UK will endure a few difficult years but they will come out stronger. EU will have a powerful and an angry neighbour.
And we protect from that angry neighbour by not giving them access to the single market
Oh we have access to the single market, just have to pay tariffs. Unlucky for the EU, the biggest EU countries (that actually contribute to the EU budget), have a trade surplus with the UK so they will be hit just as hard if not harder.
Just have to pay tarriffs. No big deal.

Thats exactly how the EU will make UK goods incredibly expensive so that internal market goods have no competition to worry about from the UK.

You have the Commonwealth though.
WTO doesn't allow that. Well it does, but allows retaliation.

We do it to China on certain goods

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:19 pm**

TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:13 pm
Rugby2023 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:11 pm Deal's done imo, current theatre is a sales pitch to both sides.
I sometimes wonder if that's the case however surely they won't go to these lengths for the sake of 'putting on a show'. I do think they are very close and the remaining issues will be resolved in the next few days.

Sounds like it was done last week and then French intervention with unrealistic demands, that felt a bit false to me, theatre. Given the trouble they had selling the WA in the UK and the desire to avoid an accidental no-deal, I put nothing past them, EU side has to look like it drove a hard bargain too. But, I may be wrong.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:21 pm**

There are some odd folk out there who want a United States of Europe, but Macron isn't one of them, not even close

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:23 pm**

iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:19 pm
message #2527204 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:18 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:16 pm
TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:11 pm
iarmhiman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:09 pm

And we protect from that angry neighbour by not giving them access to the single market
Oh we have access to the single market, just have to pay tariffs. Unlucky for the EU, the biggest EU countries (that actually contribute to the EU budget), have a trade surplus with the UK so they will be hit just as hard if not harder.
Just have to pay tarriffs. No big deal.

Thats exactly how the EU will make UK goods incredibly expensive so that internal market goods have no competition to worry about from the UK.

You have the Commonwealth though.
WTO doesn't allow that. Well it does, but allows retaliation.
We do it to China on certain goods

It is limited though, which doesn't speak against the wider point around targeting certain trade areas to make things trickier, especially when non tariff barriers can be by far the harder thing to cope with

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:25 pm**

piquant wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:21 pm There are some odd folk out there who want a United States of Europe, but Macron isn't one of them, not even close

Really? I thought France and Germany were the ones pushing for ever closer union (though some countries are opposed to it).

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:26 pm**

piquant wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:21 pm There are some odd folk out there who want a United States of Europe, but Macron isn't one of them, not even close

I want freedom of movement, freedeom of goods, freedom of capital , freedom to work and freedom to reside without barriers in the EU 27.

We have that now.

Also i want our countries to consist of liberal minded countries.

So

The UK: a liberal country but have wanted the EU's demise from the begining. Good riddance

Poland: no regard for separation of powers and judicial authority. Need to leave

Hungary: Authoritarian and too close to Russia. Need to leave.

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:29 pm**

TranceNRG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:25 pm
piquant wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:21 pm There are some odd folk out there who want a United States of Europe, but Macron isn't one of them, not even close
Really? I thought France and Germany were the ones pushing for ever closer union (though some countries are opposed to it).

Germany, Sweden, Ireland, Netherlands, Finland want status quo

France , Luxembourg, Belgium, Italy* want ever closer union

* Italy want the ability to quantitative ease so they can inflate their way out of debt

Eastern Europeans want no interference from Brussels but still want the money

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:31 pm**

What mechanism do the rest of the EU countries have to expel them? The Eastern European countries will just block it. They love the free money and being a pain in the arse for the EU. The EU deserve them.

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