What happened to that Churchill cup thing ?

[backrow]

Just watching wales B team v Uruguay , and seeing how far the minor countries have come since the days of 100-0 drubbings. What happened to that Churchill cup thing where england Saxons and Irish wolfhounds player Canada, USA and the like ? Some kind of competition where a tier 3 country could play a major teams second or third string side would be competitive to watch and good for the game development imho.

[Nolanator]

Think the strong nations withdrew their support for it? Think they committed funds as well as A teams.


I always enjoyed it. Fringe players for England/Ireland got exposure. Weaker nations get regular gametime against different opposition to their regular competition opponents.

[mabunch78]

Think the strong nations withdrew their support for it? Think they committed funds as well as A teams.

My understanding was the RFU paid for all of it....and they got bored with the lack of buy-in... Obviously the days of the RFU being able to spray cash around altruistically are long gone thanks to their own mismanagement...

[Nolanator]

Think the strong nations withdrew their support for it? Think they committed funds as well as A teams.

My understanding was the RFU paid for all of it....and they got bored with the lack of buy-in... Obviously the days of the RFU being able to spray cash around altruistically are long gone thanks to their own mismanagement...

Didn't realise that they bankrolled the whole thing. Shame that it couldn't be supported with central WR funding. Fair enough from the RFU, though.

[Cartman]

I always thought the same
Was wondering why these games couldnt be pre-games to tier 1 test matches but I suppose they want pristine pitches for those

[backrow]

Think the strong nations withdrew their support for it? Think they committed funds as well as A teams.


I always enjoyed it. Fringe players for England/Ireland got exposure. Weaker nations get regular gametime against different opposition to their regular competition opponents.

Exactly
Presume RFU was top decision maker there to pull out, wankers

Each top tier country should adopt a minor country for 4 years to develop the game there I think
Eg NZ- tonga
Aus - Fiji
SA - Samoa
Eng - USA
France - Canada
Ireland - Romania
Wales - Uruguay
Scotland - Georgia
Italy - Russia
Argentina - chile

I don’t mean give them loads of cash per se, but some regular games and a mini tour sort of thing, coach swap etc

[Nolanator]

None of the big unions have the cash to throw around. Wales don't even have an A team, their U20s is their designated 2nd team in terms of cap-tying players.
Ireland only put money into their 7s program as part of the 2023 bid.

Unions just don't want to waste cash outside of their core activities.

[Sun Tzu]

We in the woke movement got it scrapped due to the cup being named after that horrific racist.

You're welcome

[backrow]

None of the big unions have the cash to throw around. Wales don't even have an A team, their U20s is their designated 2nd team in terms of cap-tying players.
Ireland only put money into their 7s program as part of the 2023 bid.

Unions just don't want to waste cash outside of their core activities.

V sad. Just give them some games in a smallish venue you tightwads, and put them up in a premier inn.

[nardol]

It was funded by England to get votes for the world cup. Once they got the vote nu further need to fund the Churchill

[backrow]

It was funded by England to get votes for the world cup. Once they got the vote nu further need to fund the Churchill

For 2015?
Yeh that worked out well then ....

[Canadian_Rugger]

Sorry friend but nobody in Canada/USA wants to watch Churchill Cup or see Canada take on Saxons/Wolfhounds or whatever other shit crumbs WR feels like throwing us.

Real tests or don't bother. It's crap like this that has Rugby Union on its knees in Canada and the top draw being a Rugby League club getting 10k+ fans a game.

Hoping MLR continues to take off so we can do our own thing and ignore 6N+3N.

[backrow]

Sorry friend but nobody in Canada/USA wants to watch Churchill Cup or see Canada take on Saxons/Wolfhounds or whatever other shit crumbs WR feels like throwing us.

Real tests or don't bother. It's crap like this that has Rugby Union on its knees in Canada and the top draw being a Rugby League club getting 10k+ fans a game.

Hoping MLR continues to take off so we can do our own thing and ignore 6N+3N.

If that truly is the case then Canada has nobody to blame but themselves - seems ungrateful tbh
It’s not crumbs , it’s providing competitive games rather than the absolute bumming you have received in this RWC and every one since 1995

[Nolanator]

None of the big unions have the cash to throw around. Wales don't even have an A team, their U20s is their designated 2nd team in terms of cap-tying players.
Ireland only put money into their 7s program as part of the 2023 bid.

Unions just don't want to waste cash outside of their core activities.

V sad. Just give them some games in a smallish venue you tightwads, and put them up in a premier inn.

I really want to see the 6N/RC sides tour away from home to the weaker nations. Ireland seem to do North America/Japan on Lions years, which is fair enough. It'd be great to see them go to Tblisi and the PIs as well. A proper tour of a couple of the PIs with a test against NZ would be briliant. Hard to fit it in to the three week test window in June, but I just want to see the big teams go to the smaller nations more frequently.

[Scrumhead]

It would be great to see the Churchill Cup (or something similar) back, but I can’t see any appetite for it from clubs.

In England where the players are paid for by the clubs with the EPS deal covering their time with England, the Saxons is more or less a non-starter. Even if we limited the senior squads to 30-35, the Saxons would still take another 30 or so. I can’t see the clubs being happy with that and unless international windows were created with no club games played, it means fans would be watching 3rd string teams.

Even in a provincial set-up, I can’t really see how it would work, particularly in Scotland. Glasgow and Edinburgh would have barely anyone left.

I think the simplest and best solution is for Tier 1 countries to invest more in touring or hosting Tier 2/3 countries.

The NH sides normally have 3 or 4 Autumn Internationals. Perhaps it should always be 4 with the fourth fixture going to Tier 2/3 sides and treated as a development fixture.

Also, as much as I like the tradition of the Barbarians, I can’t help thinking that their fixtures might be better off being replaced by development games for Tier 2/3. The Tier 1 sides barely ever play their best players against the Barbarians anyway.

[Nolanator]

Regarding the AIs, Ireland frequently arrange 2+1. Two top tier games, and then one against Fiji, Georgia, Canada etc. Not always, but usually.
SHould probably be a more official template from WR for European teams to host at least one weaker nation each year.

Fitting in June tours to Tier 2 countries is very much dependent on who else they're scheduled to play.

[Canadian_Rugger]

Sorry friend but nobody in Canada/USA wants to watch Churchill Cup or see Canada take on Saxons/Wolfhounds or whatever other shit crumbs WR feels like throwing us.

Real tests or don't bother. It's crap like this that has Rugby Union on its knees in Canada and the top draw being a Rugby League club getting 10k+ fans a game.

Hoping MLR continues to take off so we can do our own thing and ignore 6N+3N.

If that truly is the case then Canada has nobody to blame but themselves - seems ungrateful tbh
It’s not crumbs , it’s providing competitive games rather than the absolute bumming you have received in this RWC and every one since 1995

Nobody here wants to see us play second string sides. Think about it, it's insulting. I'd rather see us and the US play Uruguay/Brazil/Japan/Georgia/Romania. Aka real tests.

The only people who gave a shit about Churchill Cup were expats who thankfully are becoming less influential in our Union so we can actually build our own game in a way that works for us and not for a country the size of my backyard. Listening to Welshmen and Kiwis tell us how we should run our sport has done us sweet fudge all of any good.

The sooner Rugby Canada and USA Rugby get off WR money, the better.

[ZuLu]

Ah the Churchill Cup

https://youtu.be/JACtIbUSMvk

That game got about 100 pages of us Irish wanking ourselves silly

[backrow]

Sorry friend but nobody in Canada/USA wants to watch Churchill Cup or see Canada take on Saxons/Wolfhounds or whatever other shit crumbs WR feels like throwing us.

Real tests or don't bother. It's crap like this that has Rugby Union on its knees in Canada and the top draw being a Rugby League club getting 10k+ fans a game.

Hoping MLR continues to take off so we can do our own thing and ignore 6N+3N.

If that truly is the case then Canada has nobody to blame but themselves - seems ungrateful tbh
It’s not crumbs , it’s providing competitive games rather than the absolute bumming you have received in this RWC and every one since 1995

Nobody here wants to see us play second string sides. Think about it, it's insulting. I'd rather see us and the US play Uruguay/Brazil/Japan/Georgia/Romania. Aka real tests.

The only people who gave a shit about Churchill Cup were expats who thankfully are becoming less influential in our Union so we can actually build our own game in a way that works for us and not for a country the size of my backyard. Listening to Welshmen and Kiwis tell us how we should run our sport has done us sweet fudge all of any good.

The sooner Rugby Canada and USA Rugby get off WR money, the better.

You really think Canada v romania will be commercially more successful than Canada v Irish wolfhounds / eng Saxons ?
Or that Canada would develop more by playing east Europeans rather than uk professionals?

It’s not meant as insulting , it’s meant to develop your game and not relying on saffa and islander imports

[grievous]

Sorry friend but nobody in Canada/USA wants to watch Churchill Cup or see Canada take on Saxons/Wolfhounds or whatever other shit crumbs WR feels like throwing us.

Real tests or don't bother. It's crap like this that has Rugby Union on its knees in Canada and the top draw being a Rugby League club getting 10k+ fans a game.

Hoping MLR continues to take off so we can do our own thing and ignore 6N+3N.

If that truly is the case then Canada has nobody to blame but themselves - seems ungrateful tbh
It’s not crumbs , it’s providing competitive games rather than the absolute bumming you have received in this RWC and every one since 1995

Nobody here wants to see us play second string sides. Think about it, it's insulting. I'd rather see us and the US play Uruguay/Brazil/Japan/Georgia/Romania. Aka real tests.

The only people who gave a shit about Churchill Cup were expats who thankfully are becoming less influential in our Union so we can actually build our own game in a way that works for us and not for a country the size of my backyard. Listening to Welshmen and Kiwis tell us how we should run our sport has done us sweet fudge all of any good.

The sooner Rugby Canada and USA Rugby get off WR money, the better.

You really think Canada v romania will be commercially more successful than Canada v Irish wolfhounds / eng Saxons ?
Or that Canada would develop more by playing east Europeans rather than uk professionals?

It’s not meant as insulting , it’s meant to develop your game and not relying on saffa and islander imports

WR just need to mandate tier 1 playing tier 2 more often and that tournament isn't needed. I dont see what its done for Romanian or Namibian rugby anyway.

[Canadian_Rugger]

Sorry friend but nobody in Canada/USA wants to watch Churchill Cup or see Canada take on Saxons/Wolfhounds or whatever other shit crumbs WR feels like throwing us.

Real tests or don't bother. It's crap like this that has Rugby Union on its knees in Canada and the top draw being a Rugby League club getting 10k+ fans a game.

Hoping MLR continues to take off so we can do our own thing and ignore 6N+3N.

If that truly is the case then Canada has nobody to blame but themselves - seems ungrateful tbh
It’s not crumbs , it’s providing competitive games rather than the absolute bumming you have received in this RWC and every one since 1995

Nobody here wants to see us play second string sides. Think about it, it's insulting. I'd rather see us and the US play Uruguay/Brazil/Japan/Georgia/Romania. Aka real tests.

The only people who gave a shit about Churchill Cup were expats who thankfully are becoming less influential in our Union so we can actually build our own game in a way that works for us and not for a country the size of my backyard. Listening to Welshmen and Kiwis tell us how we should run our sport has done us sweet fudge all of any good.

The sooner Rugby Canada and USA Rugby get off WR money, the better.

You really think Canada v romania will be commercially more successful than Canada v Irish wolfhounds / eng Saxons ?
Or that Canada would develop more by playing east Europeans rather than uk professionals?

It’s not meant as insulting , it’s meant to develop your game and not relying on saffa and islander imports

The Churchill Cup is worth sweet fudge all commercially. Rugby Canada lost money hosting it and the games were poorly attended. I should know, I went to the games.

They didn't develop anything, you don't develop international quality players playing one off matches. What will develop better Rugby players is professionsl competition aka MLR.

Also, believe it or not, USA, Romania, Uruguay, Georgia, PIs, Japan all draw better here than the Churchill Cup. Churchill Cup never had more than 5k attendance, Uruguay got 13k two years ago.

[backrow]

Ok well good luck then , seems you have it all going well and planned out

[Canadian_Rugger]

Ok well good luck then , seems you have it all going well and planned out

How about England and Wales play the NZ Maori, you guys have trouble beating NZ so you can play their B team to develop your players give you a fighting chance. Wales hasn't beaten the ABs since 1953, don't worry you'll get it some day.

See how dumb that sounds? That's what it sounds like every time I hear someone from a T1 country talk about what would be great for T2 rugby

Listening to WR/6N countries has screwed over Canadian/American rugby more tgan it's helped. WR has given us such wonderful coaching resources as Kingsley Jones lmao

Oh and Nigel Melville put USA Rugby in debt up to their eyeballs. Again, it would have bern incredibly beneficisl for Canada to miss this RWC, would have forced change. Luckily we have Canadians and Americans now providing homegrown solutions aka MLR. More has bern done in three years than WR did in 30+

[backrow]

Ok well good luck then , seems you have it all going well and planned out

How about England and Wales play the NZ Maori, you guys have trouble beating NZ so you can play their B team to develop your players give you a fighting chance. Wales hasn't beaten the ABs since 1953, don't worry you'll get it some day.

See how dumb that sounds? That's what it sounds like every time I hear someone from a T1 country talk about what would be great for T2 rugby

We did play the NZ Māori , with our Saxons , in the churchill cup, and beat them. Tom Croft as a lock outpaced a winger and a centre from 45m out and scored a fine try iirc. Uncertain what your point is ?

Did you think I was welsh ?

[UncleFB]

Ok well good luck then , seems you have it all going well and planned out

How about England and Wales play the NZ Maori, you guys have trouble beating NZ so you can play their B team to develop your players give you a fighting chance. Wales hasn't beaten the ABs since 1953, don't worry you'll get it some day.

See how dumb that sounds? That's what it sounds like every time I hear someone from a T1 country talk about what would be great for T2 rugby

We did play the NZ Māori , with our Saxons , in the churchill cup, and beat them. Tom Croft as a lock outpaced a winger and a centre from 45m out and scored a fine try iirc. Uncertain what your point is ?

Did you think I was welsh ?

Didn't we (NZ Maori) win two out of the three tournaments we played? (Not that that has anything to do with your shitfight with the above poster).

[backrow]

Ok well good luck then , seems you have it all going well and planned out

How about England and Wales play the NZ Maori, you guys have trouble beating NZ so you can play their B team to develop your players give you a fighting chance. Wales hasn't beaten the ABs since 1953, don't worry you'll get it some day.

See how dumb that sounds? That's what it sounds like every time I hear someone from a T1 country talk about what would be great for T2 rugby

We did play the NZ Māori , with our Saxons , in the churchill cup, and beat them. Tom Croft as a lock outpaced a winger and a centre from 45m out and scored a fine try iirc. Uncertain what your point is ?

Did you think I was welsh ?

Didn't we (NZ Maori) win two out of the three tournaments we played? (Not that that has anything to do with your shitfight with the above poster).

Think you did , because it was a decent side and not ‘crumbs ‘ like the moosefûcker here claims on a thread where I’m trying to help his country’s rugby develop seeing as they have gone backwards where Uruguay for example have gone forwards

[Canadian_Rugger]

Ok well good luck then , seems you have it all going well and planned out

How about England and Wales play the NZ Maori, you guys have trouble beating NZ so you can play their B team to develop your players give you a fighting chance. Wales hasn't beaten the ABs since 1953, don't worry you'll get it some day.

See how dumb that sounds? That's what it sounds like every time I hear someone from a T1 country talk about what would be great for T2 rugby

We did play the NZ Māori , with our Saxons , in the churchill cup, and beat them. Tom Croft as a lock outpaced a winger and a centre from 45m out and scored a fine try iirc. Uncertain what your point is ?

Did you think I was welsh ?

Didn't we (NZ Maori) win two out of the three tournaments we played? (Not that that has anything to do with your shitfight with the above poster).

Think you did , because it was a decent side and not ‘crumbs ‘ like the moosefûcker here claims on a thread where I’m trying to help his country’s rugby develop seeing as they have gone backwards where Uruguay for example have gone forwards

You can help us by f**king off. Uruguay have developed because they have professional rugby players and their best clubs are now playing in Argentina. Rugby Canada is a shit org but that's for a different thread.

Churchill Cup does nothing for us, you csn take it and shove it up ur arse. Typical arrogant pom.

[backrow]

Five mins ago I was welsh ?
Typical shit at rugby Canadian

[Canadian_Rugger]

Typical shit at rugby Canadian

Good one

Considering it's #40 on sport popularity here, right between seniors bridge and lawn bowling, we are doing quite well thanks.

[backrow]

Are you as shit at Bridge and bowling as well ?

[grievous]

Ok well good luck then , seems you have it all going well and planned out

How about England and Wales play the NZ Maori, you guys have trouble beating NZ so you can play their B team to develop your players give you a fighting chance. Wales hasn't beaten the ABs since 1953, don't worry you'll get it some day.

See how dumb that sounds? That's what it sounds like every time I hear someone from a T1 country talk about what would be great for T2 rugby

We did play the NZ Māori , with our Saxons , in the churchill cup, and beat them. Tom Croft as a lock outpaced a winger and a centre from 45m out and scored a fine try iirc. Uncertain what your point is ?

Did you think I was welsh ?

Didn't we (NZ Maori) win two out of the three tournaments we played? (Not that that has anything to do with your shitfight with the above poster).

Think you did , because it was a decent side and not ‘crumbs ‘ like the moosefûcker here claims on a thread where I’m trying to help his country’s rugby develop seeing as they have gone backwards where Uruguay for example have gone forwards

What has helped Uruguay is a targeted development program, Sth Am 5 nations and players in the MLR. CC wasn't doing enough for them.

[backrow]

Whatever Uruguay programme have had, it’s working for them

[Canadian_Rugger]

Think you did , because it was a decent side and not ‘crumbs ‘ like the moosefûcker here claims o
What has helped Uruguay is a targeted development program, Sth Am 5 nations and players in the MLR. CC wasn't doing enough for them.

Uruguay never played in the CC but otherwise you're spot on. They did play in the Nations Cup which was another one of WRs useless T2 tourneys.

As well, Uruguay benefits from having their entire rugby program based in Montevideo. Almost every Uruguayan rugby club is in Montevideo. Their top clubs were also invited to play in Argentina's club championship. There is some synergy there that they have smartly leveraged.

Good post and it's nice to see others with some Tier 2 knowledge.

[Sinkers]

One thing I picked up from the commentary was how many of the Uruguayan players seem to be in MLR teams.
So they're getting access to pro club rugby, which must be a plus but I guess would be available to Canadian players also?

Both Uruguay and Canada have the American championship thingy. Plus Canada are the Pacific nations cup. That's plenty of tests (10?) each year and decent opposition - Argentina, Fiji, Japan, etc.

So if one is failing and the other prospering, it don't seem to be down to the amount or quality of test competition.

[backrow]

Think you did , because it was a decent side and not ‘crumbs ‘ like the moosefûcker here claims o
What has helped Uruguay is a targeted development program, Sth Am 5 nations and players in the MLR. CC wasn't doing enough for them.

Uruguay never played in the CC but otherwise you're spot on. They did play in the Nations Cup which was another one of WRs useless T2 tourneys.

As well, Uruguay benefits from having their entire rugby program based in Montevideo. Almost every Uruguayan rugby club is in Montevideo. Their top clubs were also invited to play in Argentina's club championship. There is some synergy there that they have smartly leveraged.

Good post and it's nice to see others with some Tier 2 knowledge.

Uruguay played in 2010
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Churchill_Cup

As you say, nice to see posters with some tier 2 knowledge - pls let me know when one posts on this thread

[Canadian_Rugger]

One thing I picked up from the commentary was how many of the Uruguayan players seem to be in MLR teams.
So they're getting access to pro club rugby, which must be a plus but I guess would be available to Canadian players also?

Both Uruguay and Canada have the American championship thingy. Plus Canada are the Pacific nations cup. That's plenty of tests (10?) each year and decent opposition - Argentina, Fiji, Japan, etc.

So if one is failing and the other prospering, it don't seem to be down to the amount or quality of test competition.

Canada is failing for a number of reasons:

A. Inability of the game to adapt to professionalism - the sport is almost 100% amateur here.

B. Politics - It's been traditionally dominated by British Columbia clubs who are almost like a mafia. For a long time, in order to play for the National Team, a player would have to move to BC and play for one of the Premier League clubs there who raided other clubs across the country for players.

The problem is playing population in BC was based largely around Private Schools. Private Schools aren't really a thing in most of Canada but they are in Vancouver and Victoria which is a ridiculously posh and wealthy part of the country. It's also super isolated, like Perth in Australia and is a large metropolitan area with nothing around it.

The rugby playing population in BC has never grown and it is dwarfed by other provinces (Ontario has 4x the players now and 5x the #of clubs) but the politics persist and Rugby Canada is a BC centric organization. Toronto has 50+ Rugby Union clubs and Rugby Canada does no scouting there.

C. Administration - The administration of the sport is terrible. The National Union has made a massive mess of it. Costs have gone through the roof and kids aren't playing anymore.

D. Safety - NA is particularly aware of this issue given the massive issues with concussions in hockey and football. Rugby Union has been lumped in with this and it doesn't help that a kid was killed a couple of years ago playing high school rugby. High School has traditionally been when a lot of kids start the sport and the coaching is atrocious. It's getting harder to find good coaches and it is usually a teacher who doesn't know anything about the sport.

[backrow]

E. Inability to recall that Uruguay had in fact competed in the Churchill cup despite having stating being at the games

[JM2K6]

This is the most Mog thread he's never posted