RWC QF: Japan vs Springbokke : Match Thread: Sun 20th Oct

[Bokkom]

So disappointed for Japan. Only saw the first half, 5 - 3 down it looked all on.

Will put a dampener on the rest of the tournament unfortunately, still the finest achievement of any rugby nation outside of the elite clique (and a finer achievement than some of them)

Definitely. Even if the ABs win the cup.

[merlin the happy pig]

I hope Japan can maintain and build off this result. It would be great to have more nations competing with the traditional powers

How is that going to happen given they have no regular test matches against Tier 1 nations?

There's a pretty obvious opportunity for both Japan and the All Blacks here.
NZRFU needs more money, (lots of it)
Japan needs more tier 1 matches.
If no one can figure out how to put these 2 needs together then they're not even fit to lead the labour party. (UK let alone NZ)

[Rinkals]

Game over. SA ugly power wins over beautiful rugby

It's all rugby. Beautiful in different ways.

Yep
I love mauls

I absolutely hate them.

I find little to like about a group of overweight forwards marching the ball up the field with very little prospect of legally stopping them.

With regards to DDA's disallowed try, I find there are too many instances in games these days where the tackler is required to release and roll away, but the tackled player either crawls onward gaining metres, or blatantly continues his run, so I'm inclined to feel that the try should not have been awarded. However, the tackle was so tenuous, it could easily have been described as 'slipped'.

[Sards]

12 - Damian de Allende - was really good, should have got try
11- Makazole Mapimpi - yes, good in attack, but also good in defense and high ball
6 - Siya Kolisi - thought he played well (he's been in awful form)

Well played SA - smashed Japan. Loved the 40m maul.

Kolisi played well, finding form at the right time after a long injury layoff. This was closer to his normal game despite what some trolls will have you believe. He’s about 70-80% back to form

Was a huge improvement but hardly a performance that makes me in awe of him.

On the other hand I would like you to gush over that performance of Mapimpi who scored a delicious try with lots to do and put in a huge defensive effort against the Japanese speedy wings.

DDA put in a good effort

[Clogs]

The two contentious moments from the match.

https://youtu.be/J3SXGq711bU

https://youtu.be/2W3QkTh0dQk

[Jay Cee Gee]

The two contentious moments from the match.

https://youtu.be/J3SXGq711bU

https://youtu.be/2W3QkTh0dQk

Held and High.

[Sensible Stephen]

The two contentious moments from the match.

https://youtu.be/J3SXGq711bU

https://youtu.be/2W3QkTh0dQk

Not so great with the old technology huh? Google screen recorder.

[Farva]

On the first one its held. Every day of the week. You can tell its held in a tackle because at one point, there is a Japanese player on top of him and his knee on the ground. Then a bit later there is a knee on the ground and his jumper is stretched by the Japanese player holding it.
Are Saffers normally this blind?

Second one, the more I watch it the more I think the SA player had overrun it and actually got in the way of the Japanese player regathering. Play on is probably the right call. Penalty to Japan would not have been out of order either.

[obelixtim]

Has Beast been cited yet?

[Chilli]

On the first one its held. Every day of the week. You can tell its held in a tackle because at one point, there is a Japanese player on top of him and his knee on the ground. Then a bit later there is a knee on the ground and his jumper is stretched by the Japanese player holding it.
Are Saffers normally this blind?

Second one, the more I watch it the more I think the SA player had overrun it and actually got in the way of the Japanese player regathering. Play on is probably the right call. Penalty to Japan would not have been out of order either.

You really are a bundle of joy.

[Clogs]

On the first one its held. Every day of the week. You can tell its held in a tackle because at one point, there is a Japanese player on top of him and his knee on the ground. Then a bit later there is a knee on the ground and his jumper is stretched by the Japanese player holding it.
Are Saffers normally this blind?

Second one, the more I watch it the more I think the SA player had overrun it and actually got in the way of the Japanese player regathering. Play on is probably the right call. Penalty to Japan would not have been out of order either.

Not sure I agree. The first attempt at a tackle was clearly not held, and in all the examples I have seen of refs, they never call it held. The second player is in an interesting position. The ball carrier is off his feet attempting to get up, and he appears to go off his feet to play the ball carrier. Also the ball carrier is not held while he is on the ground. The video shows the defenders hand on the player sure, but placing a hand on a player is not the same as held. He only gets a hold of his jersey after he has regathered his feet. And then subsequently can't hold on and in a split second also releases. The third player has no impact whatsoever (typical fvcking half back).

[Clogs]

The two contentious moments from the match.

https://youtu.be/J3SXGq711bU

https://youtu.be/2W3QkTh0dQk

Not so great with the old technology huh? Google screen recorder.

I thought that was a pretty good effort with old technology. Makes note to self to look up screen recorder...

[Auckman]

Nothing wrong with the Matsushima v Mapimbi incident. Matsushima only had eyes for the ball and he almost got it too if Mapimbi, who had missed it, had not got in the way.

Close one on the Allende incident but looks like he had broken free and was not held.

[Clogs]

The two contentious moments from the match.

https://youtu.be/J3SXGq711bU

https://youtu.be/2W3QkTh0dQk

Not so great with the old technology huh? Google screen recorder.

Just tried a screen recorder and Foxtel will not play a picture. Sometimes old tech is still effective....

[Clogs]

Nothing wrong with the Matsushima v Mapimbi incident. Matsushima only had eyes for the ball and he almost got it too if Mapimbi, who had missed it, had not got in the way.

Close one on the Allende incident but looks like he had broken free and was not held.

On both probably worthy of sending to the TMO?

[Auckman]

On second thoughts, re: Allenda, isn't it that once the player has a knee to the ground, he is deemed to be held?

[Auckman]

Nothing wrong with the Matsushima v Mapimbi incident. Matsushima only had eyes for the ball and he almost got it too if Mapimbi, who had missed it, had not got in the way.

Close one on the Allende incident but looks like he had broken free and was not held.

On both probably worthy of sending to the TMO?

Don't be silly, Barnes doesn't do TMOs. He made his decision early in the world cup after seeing Ben Skeen trying to ref from the stands.

[Clogs]

On second thoughts, re: Allenda, isn't it that once the player has a knee to the ground, he is deemed to be held?

If an opposition player is holding onto him yes. It is not an opposition player touching him, he has to be 'held'.

[Farva]

On the first one its held. Every day of the week. You can tell its held in a tackle because at one point, there is a Japanese player on top of him and his knee on the ground. Then a bit later there is a knee on the ground and his jumper is stretched by the Japanese player holding it.
Are Saffers normally this blind?

Second one, the more I watch it the more I think the SA player had overrun it and actually got in the way of the Japanese player regathering. Play on is probably the right call. Penalty to Japan would not have been out of order either.

Not sure I agree. The first attempt at a tackle was clearly not held, and in all the examples I have seen of refs, they never call it held. The second player is in an interesting position. The ball carrier is off his feet attempting to get up, and he appears to go off his feet to play the ball carrier. Also the ball carrier is not held while he is on the ground. The video shows the defenders hand on the player sure, but placing a hand on a player is not the same as held. He only gets a hold of his jersey after he has regathered his feet. And then subsequently can't hold on and in a split second also releases. The third player has no impact whatsoever (typical fvcking half back).

I enjoy your enthusiasm and agree re halfbacks being generally pretty poor humans.

On the second incident first:

Mapimbi has oiverrun the ball and blocks a legitimate attempt by Matsushima to gather the ball. While Mapimbi comes off second best, that is not grounds for a penalty. If any penalty was to be awarded it would be against Mapimbi for not being in a position to regather.
You can see the ball behind him in this frame.

In regard to the tackle, no 15 dropps off him before Allende is off his feet. However, the number 8 then tackles from a standing position and Im pretty sure most people would say this is held:

The Japanese player was on his feet and was then DDA.

But if that is not enough, the same number 8 also had hold of DDA's jersey while his knee was on the ground as seen in the next frame

[Clogs]

There was another important incident that didn't quite sit right and that was the Beast yellow for that nasty tip tackle. I think general consensus was that it should be a red card.


Anyone disagree?

[Farva]

There was another important incident that didn't quite sit right and that was the Beast yellow for that nasty tip tackle. I think general consensus was that it should be a red card.


Anyone disagree?

A red would have been a tough call but not unwarranted. SA got the rub of the green on that one.

[Clogs]

On the first one its held. Every day of the week. You can tell its held in a tackle because at one point, there is a Japanese player on top of him and his knee on the ground. Then a bit later there is a knee on the ground and his jumper is stretched by the Japanese player holding it.
Are Saffers normally this blind?

Second one, the more I watch it the more I think the SA player had overrun it and actually got in the way of the Japanese player regathering. Play on is probably the right call. Penalty to Japan would not have been out of order either.

Not sure I agree. The first attempt at a tackle was clearly not held, and in all the examples I have seen of refs, they never call it held. The second player is in an interesting position. The ball carrier is off his feet attempting to get up, and he appears to go off his feet to play the ball carrier. Also the ball carrier is not held while he is on the ground. The video shows the defenders hand on the player sure, but placing a hand on a player is not the same as held. He only gets a hold of his jersey after he has regathered his feet. And then subsequently can't hold on and in a split second also releases. The third player has no impact whatsoever (typical fvcking half back).

I enjoy your enthusiasm and agree re halfbacks being generally pretty poor humans.

On the second incident first:

Mapimbi has oiverrun the ball and blocks a legitimate attempt by Matsushima to gather the ball. While Mapimbi comes off second best, that is not grounds for a penalty. If any penalty was to be awarded it would be against Mapimbi for not being in a position to regather.
You can see the ball behind him in this frame.

In regard to the tackle, no 15 dropps off him before Allende is off his feet. However, the number 8 then tackles from a standing position and Im pretty sure most people would say this is held:

The Japanese player was on his feet and was then DDA.

But if that is not enough, the same number 8 also had hold of DDA's jersey while his knee was on the ground as seen in the next frame

The second screenshot still is actually at the moment when the Japanese no8 has his hand flat on De Allende, he hasn't gotten a hold of his jersey at that point, it is only the split second after that he fleetingly manages to grab a skerrick of bok cloth, but I think at that point De Allende's knee is no longer on the ground. What I am describing is in the last frames (slo mo) of the clip. Look for when he manages to grab De Allende and not just have his hand 'placed' on him. This is the key bit of evidence. [/down and to the left, down and to the left]

[assfly]

There was another important incident that didn't quite sit right and that was the Beast yellow for that nasty tip tackle. I think general consensus was that it should be a red card.


Anyone disagree?

I had Blake's comments ringing in my ear when that happened. I think it should have been a red. I believe the only things that pushed Barnes towards a yellow were that it was so early in the game, the Japanese player wasn't injured and the Beast immediately apologised. All trivial things, but it's these small margins that can change big results.

But I did laugh when we won a penalty at the next scrum with a man down

[Clogs]

There was another important incident that didn't quite sit right and that was the Beast yellow for that nasty tip tackle. I think general consensus was that it should be a red card.


Anyone disagree?

A red would have been a tough call but not unwarranted. SA got the rub of the green on that one.

Yep. Definite rub of the green there. Potential game changer too. The Japanese could rightfully feel a bit aggrieved with that 'soft' decision.

[Farva]

There was another important incident that didn't quite sit right and that was the Beast yellow for that nasty tip tackle. I think general consensus was that it should be a red card.


Anyone disagree?

A red would have been a tough call but not unwarranted. SA got the rub of the green on that one.

Yep. Definite rub of the green there. Potential game changer too. The Japanese could rightfully feel a bit aggrieved with that 'soft' decision.

So are we happy then that given the two incidents you initially raised were correctly reffed and that Beast should have been given a red, that Australia were robbed and England should step down as semi finalists. Its the only fair thing to do I am sure you agree.

[Clogs]

There was another important incident that didn't quite sit right and that was the Beast yellow for that nasty tip tackle. I think general consensus was that it should be a red card.


Anyone disagree?

A red would have been a tough call but not unwarranted. SA got the rub of the green on that one.

Yep. Definite rub of the green there. Potential game changer too. The Japanese could rightfully feel a bit aggrieved with that 'soft' decision.

So are we happy then that given the two incidents you initially raised were correctly reffed and that Beast should have been given a red, that Australia were robbed and England should step down as semi finalists. Its the only fair thing to do I am sure you agree.

Lets just say I can at least see things from your side of the fence.























And by fence I mean those that don't have a team in the semi finals.

[Rinkals]

On the first one its held. Every day of the week. You can tell its held in a tackle because at one point, there is a Japanese player on top of him and his knee on the ground. Then a bit later there is a knee on the ground and his jumper is stretched by the Japanese player holding it.
Are Saffers normally this blind?

Second one, the more I watch it the more I think the SA player had overrun it and actually got in the way of the Japanese player regathering. Play on is probably the right call. Penalty to Japan would not have been out of order either.

Not sure I agree. The first attempt at a tackle was clearly not held, and in all the examples I have seen of refs, they never call it held. The second player is in an interesting position. The ball carrier is off his feet attempting to get up, and he appears to go off his feet to play the ball carrier. Also the ball carrier is not held while he is on the ground. The video shows the defenders hand on the player sure, but placing a hand on a player is not the same as held. He only gets a hold of his jersey after he has regathered his feet. And then subsequently can't hold on and in a split second also releases. The third player has no impact whatsoever (typical fvcking half back).

I enjoy your enthusiasm and agree re halfbacks being generally pretty poor humans.

On the second incident first:

Mapimbi has oiverrun the ball and blocks a legitimate attempt by Matsushima to gather the ball. While Mapimbi comes off second best, that is not grounds for a penalty. If any penalty was to be awarded it would be against Mapimbi for not being in a position to regather.
You can see the ball behind him in this frame.

In regard to the tackle, no 15 dropps off him before Allende is off his feet. However, the number 8 then tackles from a standing position and Im pretty sure most people would say this is held:

The Japanese player was on his feet and was then DDA.

But if that is not enough, the same number 8 also had hold of DDA's jersey while his knee was on the ground as seen in the next frame

Ok, I see what you mean. Obviously, under touch rugby rules, he would be regarded as tackled.

[handyman]

12 - Damian de Allende - was really good, should have got try
11- Makazole Mapimpi - yes, good in attack, but also good in defense and high ball
6 - Siya Kolisi - thought he played well (he's been in awful form)

Well played SA - smashed Japan. Loved the 40m maul.

Kolisi played well, finding form at the right time after a long injury layoff. This was closer to his normal game despite what some trolls will have you believe. He’s about 70-80% back to form

Yes, the captain is back with a bang. Still waiting on the Kolisi bashers to make an appearance, but as expected, they're tjoepstil.

Waar bly jy? Jy bly stil.

[Sards]

12 - Damian de Allende - was really good, should have got try
11- Makazole Mapimpi - yes, good in attack, but also good in defense and high ball
6 - Siya Kolisi - thought he played well (he's been in awful form)

Well played SA - smashed Japan. Loved the 40m maul.

Kolisi played well, finding form at the right time after a long injury layoff. This was closer to his normal game despite what some trolls will have you believe. He’s about 70-80% back to form

Yes, the captain is back with a bang. Still waiting on the Kolisi bashers to make an appearance, but as expected, they're tjoepstil.

Waar bly jy? Jy bly stil.

you guys are scratching.......

[Chilli]

12 - Damian de Allende - was really good, should have got try
11- Makazole Mapimpi - yes, good in attack, but also good in defense and high ball
6 - Siya Kolisi - thought he played well (he's been in awful form)

Well played SA - smashed Japan. Loved the 40m maul.

Kolisi played well, finding form at the right time after a long injury layoff. This was closer to his normal game despite what some trolls will have you believe. He’s about 70-80% back to form

Yes, the captain is back with a bang. Still waiting on the Kolisi bashers to make an appearance, but as expected, they're tjoepstil.

Waar bly jy? Jy bly stil.

Maybe you should read the thread 8Eye.

[Jensrsa]

I don't quite know how to rate the Boks after this game. They struggled against a tier 2 team. Even though they dominated the set pieces, mauls, and breakdowns they were losing the territory and possession battle and only lead 5-3 at half time and ended up scoring only 3 tries

[Chilli]

I don't quite know how to rate the Boks after this game. They struggled against a tier 2 team. Even though they dominated the set pieces, mauls, and breakdowns they were losing the territory and possession battle and only lead 5-3 at half time and ended up scoring only 3 tries

It is the conservative Boks kick game plan.

[Jensrsa]

I don't quite know how to rate the Boks after this game. They struggled against a tier 2 team. Even though they dominated the set pieces, mauls, and breakdowns they were losing the territory and possession battle and only lead 5-3 at half time and ended up scoring only 3 tries

It is the conservative Boks kick game plan.

Maybe so but we have lost to the only team that could match us up front, the ABs, and mainly because they have a better attack. These wins against minnows are giving a false positive indication of where Bok rugby is and I think we're going to struggle against Wales

[Sards]

I don't quite know how to rate the Boks after this game. They struggled against a tier 2 team. Even though they dominated the set pieces, mauls, and breakdowns they were losing the territory and possession battle and only lead 5-3 at half time and ended up scoring only 3 tries

It is the conservative Boks kick game plan.

Maybe so but we have lost to the only team that could match us up front, the ABs, and mainly because they have a better attack. These wins against minnows are giving a false positive indication of where Bok rugby is and I think we're going to struggle against Wales

I don't think so....Wales would have lost if it were not for the red card.....France came at them with pace at the start of the match and it was too much for them.
I suspect the NH sides are struggling with the weather conditions....Japan had a lot more pace in their side and could not beat the boks.

[beachboy]

I did not particularly like watching the game, as with many I hate box kicks. However we did what was needed to be done. This is focused and mature side (other than Beast's brainfart) and I like it that there was very little "ruk and pluk". I do feel if we had hung onto the ball more and had our bigger forwards running at Japan instead of kicking it we would have won by more but Rassie, as expected, took a conservative view.

Those box kicks will not work against other teams and hopefully we vary our attack and keep the ball more against Wales.

[Jensrsa]

I did not particularly like watching the game, as with many I hate box kicks. However we did what was needed to be done. This is focused and mature side (other than Beast's brainfart) and I like it that there was very little "ruk and pluk". I do feel if we had hung onto the ball more and had our bigger forwards running at Japan instead of kicking it we would have won by more but Rassie, as expected, took a conservative view.

Those box kicks will not work against other teams and hopefully we vary our attack and keep the ball more against Wales.

Don't hold your breath. Rassie use this game plan against a minnow like Japan and this is the game plan Rassie has used all year with the A team. It's only the B side that plays a different game

[Jensrsa]

I don't quite know how to rate the Boks after this game. They struggled against a tier 2 team. Even though they dominated the set pieces, mauls, and breakdowns they were losing the territory and possession battle and only lead 5-3 at half time and ended up scoring only 3 tries

It is the conservative Boks kick game plan.

Maybe so but we have lost to the only team that could match us up front, the ABs, and mainly because they have a better attack. These wins against minnows are giving a false positive indication of where Bok rugby is and I think we're going to struggle against Wales

I don't think so....Wales would have lost if it were not for the red card.....France came at them with pace at the start of the match and it was too much for them.
I suspect the NH sides are struggling with the weather conditions....Japan had a lot more pace in their side and could not beat the boks.

The Boks have lost 5 of the last 6 tests against Wales. Don't write them off just because the Boks beat some lesser teams this year

[Clogs]

I don't quite know how to rate the Boks after this game. They struggled against a tier 2 team. Even though they dominated the set pieces, mauls, and breakdowns they were losing the territory and possession battle and only lead 5-3 at half time and ended up scoring only 3 tries

Japan beat Ireland and Scotland and are probably the most accurate team on the planet at the moment (directness of play and handling/offloading). Their handling and high tempo play are perhaps even better than New Zealand. However the step up from Ireland and Scotland to the big 3 is another 10% effort (minimum). The big 3 defence is more ferocious, more stifling and more physically demanding in contact. That is energy sapping and error forcing. Boks did not concede a try in 2 matches against Japan. None in a nothing warm up and none in an everything on the line do or die match. Boks defended against this most explosive/exploitive side with aplomb. Rope a dope style. The sentiment from the boks seemed to be throw everything you can at me early and we will absorb it. And then with the bomb squad we will counter punch and knock you the fvck out. And with that counter punch they certainly did to Japan.


Japan are certainly top5/6 worthy. They are not England or New Zealand or even Wales. But they were a stern test. A good test for the Boks before the Welsh match.

The best/strongest 4 teams are in the semi finals. Not too sure that many could argue against this.

Mouth watering matches ahead. I hope the outcome isn't down to a ref interpretation/decision.

[assfly]

I don't quite know how to rate the Boks after this game. They struggled against a tier 2 team. Even though they dominated the set pieces, mauls, and breakdowns they were losing the territory and possession battle and only lead 5-3 at half time and ended up scoring only 3 tries

I thought the same, but it's a knock-out game in a world cup. The Boks showed Japan the respect they deserved and we went for the kill in the second half.

[Sards]

The Boks have lost 5 of the last 6 tests against Wales. Don't write them off just because the Boks beat some lesser teams this year

Different hemisphere...different coach...better managed side.....nah....I am quite confident thank you.

GO THE BOKKE