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How Will You Vote
Conservative 29%  29%  [ 63 ]
Labour 16%  16%  [ 36 ]
Liberal 27%  27%  [ 60 ]
Green 4%  4%  [ 9 ]
Brexit Party 5%  5%  [ 10 ]
SNP 4%  4%  [ 8 ]
Plaid 3%  3%  [ 7 ]
DUP 3%  3%  [ 6 ]
UUP 1%  1%  [ 3 ]
Sinn Fein 8%  8%  [ 17 ]
Total votes : 219
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:45 pm 
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A5D5E5 wrote:
Keith wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
c69 wrote:
Closed shops are illegal, as I believe are what were called flying pickets.


Too fucking right Flying Pickets should be illegal. A cappella is f**king hideous.

The Housemartins say "fuck off"


4th best band with a link to Hull.



A beautiful south being number 1?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:11 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
Keith wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
c69 wrote:
Closed shops are illegal, as I believe are what were called flying pickets.


Too fucking right Flying Pickets should be illegal. A cappella is f**king hideous.

The Housemartins say "fuck off"


4th best band with a link to Hull.



A beautiful south being number 1?


Spiders from Mars
Beautiful South (though of course there is a strong link with the Housemartins)
Fine young cannibals

Yes, this list does show exactly how hard I was trying to find any excuse to put other bands above the Housemartins and what a complete wasteland Hull is for decent music with the very notable exception of Mick Ronson.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:03 am 
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I think Paul Heston deserves a knighthood though I realise he’d not want it.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:09 am 
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c69 wrote:
Closed shops are illegal, as I believe are what were called flying pickets.
Not seen the proposed legislation to repeal this.
Don't agree with either tbh.


It was hidden but clear.

Labour manifesto 2017 wrote:
A Labour government will ensure
Britain abides by the global Labour
standards of the ILO conventions.


ilo wrote:
"secondary industrial action “is recognised
and protected as part of trade union freedom under ILO Convention No. 87"


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:29 am 
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message #2527204 wrote:
c69 wrote:
Closed shops are illegal, as I believe are what were called flying pickets.
Not seen the proposed legislation to repeal this.
Don't agree with either tbh.


It was hidden but clear.

Labour manifesto 2017 wrote:
A Labour government will ensure
Britain abides by the global Labour
standards of the ILO conventions.


ilo wrote:
"secondary industrial action “is recognised
and protected as part of trade union freedom under ILO Convention No. 87"

ILO? :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:20 am 
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Welsh conservative party released an election manifesto ,did not mention Wales at all , we know what we will be getting .


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:10 am 
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Jimcardiff wrote:
Welsh conservative party released an election manifesto ,did not mention Wales at all , we know what we will be getting .


What did the call it ?

- England Lite
- I can't believe it's not England
- Yellow Pack England


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:01 am 
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Jimcardiff wrote:
Welsh conservative party released an election manifesto ,did not mention Wales at all , we know what we will be getting .


No campaign for independence?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:05 am 
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S,all bits.

Some Tory's ex-wife blocked his re-election :lol:

Union's are telling Corbyn don't go for freedom of movement. It might f#ck Labour up north. I agree.

Corbyn say no Indy ref for 5 years or more. E.g. "Never".


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:07 am 
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Oh and in response to BImbodicks claism earlier female MPs were standing down due to abuse:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... fter-abuse

Quote:

Figures suggest female MPs are retiring from parliament prematurely. Of the 58 politicians who have announced they will not stand again, 18 are women and 41 are men, which is roughly proportional to the current makeup of parliament.

However, since cohorts of retiring MPs usually reflect historical intakes, the expectation would be that the number of outgoing female parliamentarians would be lower.

Among Tory ranks, the female MPs stepping down are on average 10 years younger and have spent a decade less in parliament than retiring male MPs.


Diane Abbott speaks out on online abuse as female MPs step down
Read more
The cabinet minister Nicky Morgan has said she will not be standing as a candidate, with one of her reasons being the abuse she has received. The former home secretary Amber Rudd is also among the moderate Tory MPs who have said they will not fight the election on 12 December.

Heidi Allen, the former Conservative MP who defected to the Liberal Democrats via Change UK, also said she would not stand, highlighting “the nastiness and intimidation that has become commonplace”.

Sam Smethers, the chief executive of the Fawcett Society, said it was extremely worrying that so many women were leaving parliament at the election and had cited “either the abuse they have received or the pressure it has put on their family life”.

“We have to confront the fact that our toxic politics is driving good women MPs away. In 2019 it is still a hostile environment for women,” she said, adding that the figures should particularly worry the Conservative party, where only one in five MPs are women. “I fear that we will see the number of women MPs fall after this election. We are going backwards,” said Smethers.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:01 am 
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Corbyn say no Indy ref for 5 years or more. E.g. "Never".

He’s either telling porkies or he genuinely doesn’t want the responsibility of power.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:06 am 
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The cynic in me says that the two kiwi influencer boys are well into their work........dropping grenades on websites everywhere......


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:24 am 
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Quote:
Oh and in response to BImbodicks claism earlier female MPs were standing down due to abuse:




When facts don’t work there’s always a guardian opinion to fall back on.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:35 am 
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Jimcardiff wrote:
Welsh conservative party released an election manifesto ,did not mention Wales at all , we know what we will be getting .

not just the tories. I've seen tory, labour, liberal and Brexit literature. not one mention of England at all.

cnuts, the lot of them.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:38 am 
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Jimcardiff wrote:
Welsh conservative party released an election manifesto ,did not mention Wales at all , we know what we will be getting .



Have you got a link to this manifesto, they’re not released yet and you’ve got a scoop.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:40 am 
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Lord Denning wrote:
Quote:
Corbyn say no Indy ref for 5 years or more. E.g. "Never".

He’s either telling porkies or he genuinely doesn’t want the responsibility of power.


I suspect, it's case of, he loves the idea of independence in principle, just not independence here. Alternatively he is a unionist scared shitless of f#cking up the UK and I doubt any English PM can influence the Scottish right now.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:04 am 
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merry! wrote:
Jimcardiff wrote:
Welsh conservative party released an election manifesto ,did not mention Wales at all , we know what we will be getting .

not just the tories. I've seen tory, labour, liberal and Brexit literature. not one mention of England at all.

cnuts, the lot of them.

All the Brexit Party stuff I saw at EU elections mentioned England all the time. Virtually every mail shot and TV interview. Agreed on the other Parties though re England.
I hope Wales goes the way of Scotland regarding wanting self governance. Tbh a proper Federal system would be much more workable and less London SE centric.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:22 am 
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c69 wrote:
merry! wrote:
Jimcardiff wrote:
Welsh conservative party released an election manifesto ,did not mention Wales at all , we know what we will be getting .

not just the tories. I've seen tory, labour, liberal and Brexit literature. not one mention of England at all.

cnuts, the lot of them.

All the Brexit Party stuff I saw at EU elections mentioned England all the time. Virtually every mail shot and TV interview. Agreed on the other Parties though re England.
I hope Wales goes the way of Scotland regarding wanting self governance. Tbh a proper Federal system would be much more workable and less London SE centric.

Republic of Cheshire. Could handle that.
Or how far back do we go to satisfy this need? Republic of West Mercia?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:49 am 
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c69 wrote:
merry! wrote:
Jimcardiff wrote:
Welsh conservative party released an election manifesto ,did not mention Wales at all , we know what we will be getting .

not just the tories. I've seen tory, labour, liberal and Brexit literature. not one mention of England at all.

cnuts, the lot of them.

All the Brexit Party stuff I saw at EU elections mentioned England all the time. Virtually every mail shot and TV interview. Agreed on the other Parties though re England.
I hope Wales goes the way of Scotland regarding wanting self governance. Tbh a proper Federal system would be much more workable and less London SE centric.

yup.

(with York as the capital, natch - roughly equidistant from London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast).


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:00 am 
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c69 wrote:
merry! wrote:
Jimcardiff wrote:
Welsh conservative party released an election manifesto ,did not mention Wales at all , we know what we will be getting .

not just the tories. I've seen tory, labour, liberal and Brexit literature. not one mention of England at all.

cnuts, the lot of them.

All the Brexit Party stuff I saw at EU elections mentioned England all the time. Virtually every mail shot and TV interview. Agreed on the other Parties though re England.
I hope Wales goes the way of Scotland regarding wanting self governance. Tbh a proper Federal system would be much more workable and less London SE centric.



You were living in England you absolute fat melt.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:02 am 
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I was thinking Manchester tbh, certainly not somewhere like dirty Leeds.
Whatever the fcek happens in this election we will be being governed by clueless out of touch donkeys.
Both major Parties are a shambles and not fit to Govern imho natch.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:11 am 
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c69 wrote:
I was thinking Manchester tbh, certainly not somewhere like dirty Leeds.
Whatever the fcek happens in this election we will be being governed by clueless out of touch donkeys.
Both major Parties are a shambles and not fit to Govern imho natch.

Manchester, leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield would never agree. whereas York is an ancient city worthy of the title. it's crowned roman emperors, been the seat of Viking kings, was decisive in the civil war (Scottish covenanters were also there), etc, etc.. the history of York is as much the history of these islands as anywhere.

you're right about the donkeys in parliament. almost time for a Cromwellian figure to clear the place out. I guess that's what boris is trying to do. hail, boris! ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:29 am 
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merry! wrote:
c69 wrote:
I was thinking Manchester tbh, certainly not somewhere like dirty Leeds.
Whatever the fcek happens in this election we will be being governed by clueless out of touch donkeys.
Both major Parties are a shambles and not fit to Govern imho natch.

Manchester, leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield would never agree. whereas York is an ancient city worthy of the title. it's crowned roman emperors, been the seat of Viking kings, was decisive in the civil war (Scottish covenanters were also there), etc, etc.. the history of York is as much the history of these islands as anywhere.

you're right about the donkeys in parliament. almost time for a Cromwellian figure to clear the place out. I guess that's what boris is trying to do. hail, boris! ;)

York's nice but with one major setback - it's full of Yorkshire people.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:37 am 
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c69 wrote:
I was thinking Manchester tbh, certainly not somewhere like dirty Leeds.
Whatever the fcek happens in this election we will be being governed by clueless out of touch donkeys.
Both major Parties are a shambles and not fit to Govern imho natch.


Manchester - pfft. They've already got a Mayor in that gutless scouser Andy Burnham


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:39 am 
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message #2527204 wrote:
merry! wrote:
c69 wrote:
I was thinking Manchester tbh, certainly not somewhere like dirty Leeds.
Whatever the fcek happens in this election we will be being governed by clueless out of touch donkeys.
Both major Parties are a shambles and not fit to Govern imho natch.

Manchester, leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield would never agree. whereas York is an ancient city worthy of the title. it's crowned roman emperors, been the seat of Viking kings, was decisive in the civil war (Scottish covenanters were also there), etc, etc.. the history of York is as much the history of these islands as anywhere.

you're right about the donkeys in parliament. almost time for a Cromwellian figure to clear the place out. I guess that's what boris is trying to do. hail, boris! ;)

York's nice but with one major setback - it's full of Yorkshire people.

'appen.

(as Yorkshire exile would have said)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:44 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Quote:
It's their labour and they should have the right to withdraw it.


Yes they do, the companies and people who pay for and Receive a service have every right to buy in other more willing Labour.


This is your most absurd false equivalence yet. Congratulations.


Last edited by ManInTheBar on Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:47 am 
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Modern day Henry Ford :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:58 am 
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merry! wrote:
c69 wrote:
merry! wrote:
Jimcardiff wrote:
Welsh conservative party released an election manifesto ,did not mention Wales at all , we know what we will be getting .

not just the tories. I've seen tory, labour, liberal and Brexit literature. not one mention of England at all.

cnuts, the lot of them.

All the Brexit Party stuff I saw at EU elections mentioned England all the time. Virtually every mail shot and TV interview. Agreed on the other Parties though re England.
I hope Wales goes the way of Scotland regarding wanting self governance. Tbh a proper Federal system would be much more workable and less London SE centric.

yup.

(with York as the capital, natch - roughly equidistant from London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast).

London Is big enough to be a city state, within the EU. Let the brexity regions/nations enjoy their brexity sovereignty unshackled by badass London or the EU. Edinburgh could embellish London's financial services pre-eminence quite well too if it so chose.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:02 pm 
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Sadly this creative thinking is largely fantasy, though it would be tremendously ironic if the outcome of rejecting a part in a federal Europe was to move in such a marked direction towards the model of federal Germany


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:07 pm 
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You’ve got to admire the logic that says leaving the EU is a folly because in a modern world Britain is too small and that you also want to break up the UK because Britain is too large.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:08 pm 
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A5D5E5 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
4th best band with a link to Hull.



A beautiful south being number 1?


Spiders from Mars
Beautiful South (though of course there is a strong link with the Housemartins)
Fine young cannibals

Yes, this list does show exactly how hard I was trying to find any excuse to put other bands above the Housemartins and what a complete wasteland Hull is for decent music with the very notable exception of Mick Ronson.


The Hull Daily Mail has Spiders from Mars at No. 1 in their top 10

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife/ten-best-bands-come-out-70594


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:14 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
You’ve got to admire the logic that says leaving the EU is a folly because in a modern world Britain is too small and that you also want to break up the UK because Britain is too large.


That's sort the mirror image of my argument, isn't it - if federalism is bad how come it is good for the UK? I would argue it is, or should be, good for both.

My position is that we should be working towards changing the balance of political power away from 'nation states' and towards a pyramidal structure of 'federal' or devolved structures, much as works in the US. We are unable to have this debate currently owing to the narrative of "unelected foreign bureaucrats oppressing our sovereignity".


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:41 pm 
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merry! wrote:
c69 wrote:
I was thinking Manchester tbh, certainly not somewhere like dirty Leeds.
Whatever the fcek happens in this election we will be being governed by clueless out of touch donkeys.
Both major Parties are a shambles and not fit to Govern imho natch.

Manchester, leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield would never agree. whereas York is an ancient city worthy of the title. it's crowned roman emperors, been the seat of Viking kings, was decisive in the civil war (Scottish covenanters were also there), etc, etc.. the history of York is as much the history of these islands as anywhere.

you're right about the donkeys in parliament. almost time for a Cromwellian figure to clear the place out. I guess that's what boris is trying to do. hail, boris! ;)

Gainsborough is your answer, a seat of power long ago, awaiting its phoenix moment.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:58 pm 
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ManInTheBar wrote:
bimboman wrote:
You’ve got to admire the logic that says leaving the EU is a folly because in a modern world Britain is too small and that you also want to break up the UK because Britain is too large.


That's sort the mirror image of my argument, isn't it - if federalism is bad how come it is good for the UK? I would argue it is, or should be, good for both.

My position is that we should be working towards changing the balance of political power away from 'nation states' and towards a pyramidal structure of 'federal' or devolved structures, much as works in the US. We are unable to have this debate currently owing to the narrative of "unelected foreign bureaucrats oppressing our sovereignity".



I’m all for local powers as long as they’re meaningful. The closer I am to the tax collector the better.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:22 pm 
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At what point did local councils and authorities give up responsibility for local flooding issues?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:23 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
Sherelle predicts Labour decimation:

Quote:
Labour is on the brink of the most seismic wipeout in British election history

SHERELLE JACOBSDAILY TELEGRAPH COLUMNIST

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14 NOVEMBER 2019 • 6:00AM

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Tom Watson has jumped from a sinking ship

 

A change in recruitment strategy has helped this UK business expand internationally

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The polls and BBC  have failed to pick up on the biggest shocker of this election

This could actually be it – the end of Labour. Some may scoff, pointing out that it has narrowed the gap with the Tories in some polls. But on the ground, in the heartlands, the party smells of death.

Before the darkness always comes that euphoric moment of clarity. The Liberals felt it in 1924, when they suddenly grasped that the working-classes – towards whom they felt deep intellectual ambivalence – were about to sweep them away. Their push to make amends came too late. Today, Labour MPs across the Midlands, North and Wales are so certain the end is coming that, as one Tory puts it, “they are not even bothering to change tack”. They are either insulating their egos for the racuous humiliation of televised vote counts or they have quit – especially if their name is Tom Watson.

Historic political collapses don’t so much clang with confusion as ring with lucidity. Although they almost don’t dare to, Tory candidates can sense it on the doorstep. One standing in a Midlands market town told me: “People know they have been cheated. Lifelong Labourites are reciting ‘Let’s Get Brexit Done’, before we’ve even had a chance to bring it up.”

The Opposition’s counter-strategy is slapstick Momentum. Instead of putting Brexiteers up in marginals, it is parachuting in Corbynista loyalists. Take Natalie Fleet, who after being selected for Ashfield (70 per cent Leave), infuriated locals by trilling that Brexiteers didn’t know what they were voting for in a chalkboard-scraping Newsnight interview.

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The incumbent Labour MPs who have not already resigned are imploding. The BBC – an avuncular blind-deaf national treasure no longer of this world – may rattle off dopey items on the NHS being an election-decider. But on the frontline, attempts to shift the focus from Brexit have stupendously backfired. Instead, constituents are demanding to know why Labour is blocking democracy.

Prospective candidates who desperately want to talk about police cuts and food banks are being forced back onto the stingy slogan that they “can’t back something that will harm constituents”. It has more than a slight tang of the Liberals circa 1924. As one mill striker put it then: “We have had two parties in the past, the can’ts and the won’ts, and it is time that we had a party that will.”

What is more, to the horror of Labour, Boris Johnson is proving surreally popular in the West Midlands, this election’s main battleground. An old Etonian among ordinary folk he may be, but the land of closed steelworks and sparkly glamrock connects emotionally with his gloom-piercing character. Which is why social media attacks on Johnson by Black Country Labour prospective candidates – far from going viral – have been met with sniffs of disapproval. There is less love for his rival leader. One joke doing the rounds is: “I’d rather jump in the river Trent than vote for Corbyn. An’ I co’er swim.”

In its historic heartlands, the end of Labour can’t come soon enough. It is a stillborn populist movement that has mummified hideously into a metropolitan protest group. Its story is tragic. Within 30 years of its launch, bohemian Bolshevism had smothered the hopeful pragmatism of its rank-and-file.

But if socialism crushed Labour’s spirit, Blairism sucked out its soul. To the Mandelson set, the working class was the man who griped “too many immigrants” over digestive biscuits in their focus groups, but might find himself again at a call centre in Hull. Thank the stars that Corbynism – the spoilt adolescent of Blairism – is about to blow the whole thing up in a fit of fundamentalism.

Nevertheless, for Labour to be decimated, two things need to happen. First, although the Brexit Party could in fact help the Tories win target seats – by splitting the Left-wing vote in areas like Ashfield where many Leavers will never vote for “Tories who closed the pits” – the two parties must seriously consider standing down in seats the other can’t win.

The Brexit Party has a historic opportunity to become the real third force in British politics. (Rather than the Lib Dems, who merely shout the loudest in politically overcrowded Remainia). But Nigel Farage must urgently learn from the mistake he made as leader of Ukip in 2015, when he fixated on national airtime at the expense of pavement politics, and spread his operational butter too thin.

Second, the Tories must stop throwing away votes by over-relying on their“oven-ready” deal, twinned with their bland offer of more money for public services. Candidates have picked up the hunger for an optimistic story about the future, particularly from “none of the above” voters, whether it’s reinventing their town as a tech hub or building that train network that was promised 20 years ago. The scale of the Tory victory depends on how many of these people it can galvanise with the promise of a new dawn – “a party that will”.

As a Brexiteer from a dynasty of “Labour men”, I can’t help but reflect with a hint of melancholy. But to former supporters, the party is like the family Staffordshire bull terrier that has become feral. The kindest thing is to put it down – peacefully but resolutely.



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... n-history/

I bet it won't be as big a defeat that the Tories had at the hands of Blair. These are strange and unusual times.
Say good bye to Scotland from the Union.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:24 pm 
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Bye Scotland, enjoy your no currency debt bubble with no lender of last resort. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:25 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
At what point did local councils and authorities give up responsibility for local flooding issues?

Maybe when they were starved of funding in a malevolent blood letting exercise by the Conservative government?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:27 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
At what point did local councils and authorities give up responsibility for local flooding issues?


They are amongst the many bodies with responsibility.

https://nationalfloodforum.org.uk/about-flooding/flood-facts/whos-responsible-for-what/

A better question is which of these bodies have seen their funding grow in response to apparent change and which have had their funding cut


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:27 pm 
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Owen Jones is like "f#ck the Lib Dems, f#ck them in the ass" like all good Momentum members and Corbyn followers do:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... is-johnson

Quote:

The Tory electoral strategy is straightforward: unite leave voters behind the Conservative banner. Nigel Farage’s decision to form a de facto pact with the Tories should serve as a moment of clarity. The differences between Farage and Boris Johnson, Donald Trump’s two principal British allies, are merely personal: politically, they are on the same page. Both fundamentally see Brexit as a blunt instrument to reshape British society, stripping away the pesky workers’ rights and consumer and social protections that stand in the way of their hyper-Thatcherite dystopia.

John Major once declared that the NHS was as safe with Johnson and Michael Gove “as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”; Farage is on record supporting its privatisation. This pact should be treated as a national political emergency: in four weeks, it may triumph and transform Britain for a generation.


The second plank of the Tory strategy relies on the Liberal Democrats dividing the remain vote. Jo Swinson may have valid reasons, on her own political terms, for waging her party’s rampantly anti-Labour campaign. The Lib Dems’ only real chance of picking up significant numbers of seats is in the south-west, and that means winning over Tory remainers who abhor the very notion of a Corbyn-led government.


By focusing her attacks on Labour rather than the Tory Brexiteers, Swinson believes she will reassure those David Cameron-type supporters that a vote for the Lib Dems will not install Corbyn in Downing Street. It is why Swinson so aggressively opposed a temporary Corbyn premiership to extend article 50 and call an election, and why she refuses to stand down candidates against anti-Brexit Labour MPs.

The problem is that the future of the country is rather more important than whether the Lib Dems win back St Ives, Cheltenham or North Devon. Canterbury was a Tory fortress from the mid-19th century until Labour’s Rosie Duffield triumphed in 2017 with a majority of just 187 votes. The Lib Dems’ Tim Walker stood down for the principled, commonsense reason that if he succeeded in dividing the anti-Tory vote, the hard Brexit Tory candidate – a Vote Leave veteran – would take the seat instead.


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The Lib Dem leadership’s response? Disciplining Walker and imposing a new candidate instead. That led a Lib Dem candidate, Guy Kiddey, in the marginal of High Peak – held by Labour with a majority of 2,322 – to threaten to resign from the party. He was later told he would be replaced as the Lib Dem candidate.

The Lib Dems will protest that this is terribly unfair. Are they not a national party with the right to stand wherever they choose? Yes, this is how politics works. But the problem is this: the party has made stopping Brexit its defining cause, while simultaneously portraying it as a crusade that transcends party politics. The Lib Dems know that throwing resources at seats they cannot win and peeling away significant numbers of Labour voters will allow the Tories to win. They know that demonising Labour as a “Brexit party” – when a Labour-led government implementing its policy of a second referendum is the only plausible route to stop Brexit – divides remainers to the benefit of the Tory Brexiteers. They know that focusing their vitriol on Corbyn strengthens the position of Johnson.

But ultimately they are not, by definition, an anti-Brexit party; the remain cause is secondary to increasing the number of Lib Dem seats in parliament. If your main aim in politics is to advance the partisan interests of the Lib Dems and repeat their performance in government, then this makes sense. If your only cause is stopping Brexit, however, it does not.

There will be some who vote Lib Dem in four weeks’ time because of dishonest graphs printed on leaflets claiming that only Swinson’s party can defeat Johnson in tight Tory-Labour marginals. If they wake up to see a beaming Boris Johnson, relishing his newly minted Tory majority and pledging to implement a Trumpian hard Brexit by the end of January, they will feel horrified and tricked.

That does not absolve Labour of its responsibilities. No party has a divine right to any voters. In 19 November’s televised debate with Johnson, Corbyn must surely make it clear to disillusioned remainers that Labour’s referendum policy is their only chance of stopping Johnson’s Brexit.


This doesn’t mean a return to the cynical “you might hate us but the Tories are worse” politics of the New Labour years – in fact, the party’s commitments to hiking tax on the top 5% to invest in public services, public ownership and scrapping tuition fees are very popular. A tightrope has to be trodden, of course: Labour supporters who voted for Brexit, particularly in leave-leaning northern constituencies, cannot simply be ignored.

The party’s challenges go beyond Brexit. A new poll from Survation finds that just 45% of 18- to 34-year-olds and less than half of those earning under £20,000 are certain to vote, compared with 81.5% of over 65-year-olds and 77% of those earning more than £40,000. It is these people – who should be natural Labour voters – that the party urgently needs to get out.

Labour’s best hope is to mobilise its key strength – its mass membership – and focus on its popular domestic policies and a positive vision. That does not mean avoiding the obvious truth, however, which is that the Tory Brexiteers’ best hopes rely on the Lib Dems. If a Tory hard Brexit is unleashed in the coming weeks, then Jo Swinson and her cynical Lib Dem strategists will rank among its chief handmaidens.


I thinka few of the commenst under this article is dead on:

"TheRealCmdrGravy2h ago
Given the love the Lib Dems have got from Labour over the last several years its not that surprising they're not willing to be all that co-operative.
Sometimes Labour seem to assume the Lib Dems are some kind of lapdog that the Labour party can whistle to heel when they feel like it. The sense of entitlement is, frankly, staggering."



JackDowland TheRealCmdrGravy1h ago

Agree.
When Labour activists call for an alliance, what they tend to mean is that the Lib Dems should admit the folly of their existence, shut up and dock with the big red mothership of all political virtue. It is not as persuasive a pitch as some on the left seem to think.
From Rafael Behr much better article yesterday.



FirmbutFair
I find it fascinating that Labour is refusing to stand down in a single seat, for anyone, and yet it is somehow all the fault of the Lib Dems who have actually agreed to stand some candidates down - in some cases, as in Exeter benefiting Labour.
Jones makes too light of the existence of large numbers who hate Brexit but hate Corbyn more. I don't agree with them not least because almost anything bad done by Corbyn can be undone whereas Brexit cannot, at least not by the UK even if it wants to.
Nonetheless, if most of these are scared back to Johnson as the "lesser evil" then he will win.


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