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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:16 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Bloodgate was on a par because they tried to do it against an Irish team and we're the spiritual guardians of Rugby Football.


Ah now, you'd not have given the slightest of fucks if it were any of the other 3 provinces on the receiving end.


Shame Evans didn’t land a winning drop-goal tbh, the Irish would’ve been able to add ‘the bleeding mouth of Williams’ to ‘the hand of Back’ and ‘the hand of Henry’ to the big book of sporting grudges


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:40 pm 
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Joost wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Bloodgate was on a par because they tried to do it against an Irish team and we're the spiritual guardians of Rugby Football.


Ah now, you'd not have given the slightest of fucks if it were any of the other 3 provinces on the receiving end.


Shame Evans didn’t land a winning drop-goal tbh, the Irish would’ve been able to add ‘the bleeding mouth of Williams’ to ‘the hand of Back’ and ‘the hand of Henry’ to the big book of sporting grudges


In contrast to your perfidious land of persistent cheats and liars, we Irish are the consistent lluminating light of honesty, straight forward dealing and decent tarmac driveways.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:25 pm 
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For all their ‘righteous indignation’ that they had done nothing wrong I think Saracens only have until Monday to request review and so far nothing? Arseholes..


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:44 pm 
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Trostan wrote:
Joost wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Bloodgate was on a par because they tried to do it against an Irish team and we're the spiritual guardians of Rugby Football.


Ah now, you'd not have given the slightest of fucks if it were any of the other 3 provinces on the receiving end.


Shame Evans didn’t land a winning drop-goal tbh, the Irish would’ve been able to add ‘the bleeding mouth of Williams’ to ‘the hand of Back’ and ‘the hand of Henry’ to the big book of sporting grudges


In contrast to your perfidious land of persistent cheats and liars, we Irish are the consistent lluminating light of honesty, straight forward dealing and decent tarmac driveways.

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:01 pm 
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From someone who writes about rugby and the law: https://twitter.com/rugbyandthelaw/stat ... 85184?s=20

... he says Pt II coming over the weekend.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:15 am 
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Southernscot wrote:
For all their ‘righteous indignation’ that they had done nothing wrong I think Saracens only have until Monday to request review and so far nothing? Arseholes..

It's all about PR really, seems they may have gotten off lightly all things considered.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:02 pm 
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Sarries not going to appeal, review, whatever you want to call it. Purely for playing reasons you understand. They don't want to further disrupt their season

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sara ... -76lfcc0bz


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:04 pm 
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Good, more or less admitting they are cheating twats and accepting the punishments. Also means any more dirt on them won't come out

They won't but I sincerely hope they get relegated, cheating scum


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:00 am 
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How do they handle this year's breach? Presumably they're going to be honouring everyone's contract and the various benefits in kind, which I'd guess would leave them in the same boat for this season?

Do PRL grant them a grace period to dump players?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:21 am 
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Red Revolution wrote:
How do they handle this year's breach? Presumably they're going to be honouring everyone's contract and the various benefits in kind, which I'd guess would leave them in the same boat for this season?

Do PRL grant them a grace period to dump players?

Expect a drop in house prices around st albans


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:22 am 
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Red Revolution wrote:
How do they handle this year's breach? Presumably they're going to be honouring everyone's contract and the various benefits in kind, which I'd guess would leave them in the same boat for this season?

Do PRL grant them a grace period to dump players?

I guess there's no breach until the sums are done at the end of the season.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:35 am 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
Sarries not going to appeal, review, whatever you want to call it. Purely for playing reasons you understand. They don't want to further disrupt their season

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sara ... -76lfcc0bz



That article reads like a posting from the Saracens. Website rather than a piece of independent journalism


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:36 am 
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Southernscot wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
Sarries not going to appeal, review, whatever you want to call it. Purely for playing reasons you understand. They don't want to further disrupt their season

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sara ... -76lfcc0bz



That article reads like a posting from the Saracens. Website rather than a piece of independent journalism


You missed the post explaining how Sarries had recruited a PR firm to deal with this mess?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:23 am 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
Sarries not going to appeal, review, whatever you want to call it. Purely for playing reasons you understand. They don't want to further disrupt their season

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sara ... -76lfcc0bz

Quote:
Saracens realised that for planning purposes Mark McCall, the director of rugby, would need certainty. If he found with two-thirds of the season gone that Saracens were exonerated, then he may already have wasted opportunities to field strong sides; if he had fielded strong teams before the decision then he might have had no key players with availability left for the run-in had the appeal gone against them.

Am I missing something or is that complete nonsense?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:39 am 
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paddyor wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
Sarries not going to appeal, review, whatever you want to call it. Purely for playing reasons you understand. They don't want to further disrupt their season

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sara ... -76lfcc0bz

Quote:
Saracens realised that for planning purposes Mark McCall, the director of rugby, would need certainty. If he found with two-thirds of the season gone that Saracens were exonerated, then he may already have wasted opportunities to field strong sides; if he had fielded strong teams before the decision then he might have had no key players with availability left for the run-in had the appeal gone against them.

Am I missing something or is that complete nonsense?


Of course it's complete nonsense. But it's released to the press as an exclusive, so it will be accepted without question.

It's straight out of the Donald Trump book of PR


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:03 am 
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Saint wrote:
paddyor wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
Sarries not going to appeal, review, whatever you want to call it. Purely for playing reasons you understand. They don't want to further disrupt their season

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sara ... -76lfcc0bz

Quote:
Saracens realised that for planning purposes Mark McCall, the director of rugby, would need certainty. If he found with two-thirds of the season gone that Saracens were exonerated, then he may already have wasted opportunities to field strong sides; if he had fielded strong teams before the decision then he might have had no key players with availability left for the run-in had the appeal gone against them.

Am I missing something or is that complete nonsense?


Of course it's complete nonsense. But it's released to the press as an exclusive, so it will be accepted without question.

It's straight out of the Donald Trump book of PR

It might be PR spin but I don't think it's nonsense. McCall is saying he can't properly plan a season long campaign if he doesn't know if they are going to be sanctioned or not. By accepting the points deduction he now knows he's got to prioritise the league instead of trying to fight on two fronts. So he's not going to burn any matches trying to secure a QF place in the ECC.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:43 am 
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Yes, and if he appeal had gone ahead they'd have prioritized the league anyway......


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:07 am 
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paddyor wrote:
Yes, and if he appeal had gone ahead they'd have prioritized the league anyway......

But it's fair to say there would be uncertainty and maybe he'd weight his decisions differently. I think it's reasonable for him to prefer to know exactly where the club stands.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:58 am 
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Ulsters Red Hand wrote:
Good, more or less admitting they are cheating twats and accepting the punishments. Also means any more dirt on them won't come out

They won't but I sincerely hope they get relegated, cheating scum


For all the talk about the recent seasons were a 35 point deduction would not have seen them relegated, this still gives a lifeline to the struggling clubs early in the season. I know they should be scrapping equally as hard for every single point whether or not another team is in a bad situation but I can't help feeling that they will scrap a little harder knowing that survival is slightly more likely. Also, I suspect every other team that meets them will try a little harder to inflict punishment. Preventing them a TSB will be a lot more meaningful this season than in previous ones for example. Again, it shouldn't be the case but human nature is what it is.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:06 am 
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MrJonno wrote:
Ulsters Red Hand wrote:
Good, more or less admitting they are cheating twats and accepting the punishments. Also means any more dirt on them won't come out

They won't but I sincerely hope they get relegated, cheating scum


For all the talk about the recent seasons were a 35 point deduction would not have seen them relegated, this still gives a lifeline to the struggling clubs early in the season. I know they should be scrapping equally as hard for every single point whether or not another team is in a bad situation but I can't help feeling that they will scrap a little harder knowing that survival is slightly more likely. Also, I suspect every other team that meets them will try a little harder to inflict punishment. Preventing them a TSB will be a lot more meaningful this season than in previous ones for example. Again, it shouldn't be the case but human nature is what it is.


On the other hand, a top team will not see them as competition for the play-offs - so losing to them won't hurt as much and they could save their best teams for match ups that count for more.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:16 am 
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ovalball wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
Ulsters Red Hand wrote:
Good, more or less admitting they are cheating twats and accepting the punishments. Also means any more dirt on them won't come out

They won't but I sincerely hope they get relegated, cheating scum


For all the talk about the recent seasons were a 35 point deduction would not have seen them relegated, this still gives a lifeline to the struggling clubs early in the season. I know they should be scrapping equally as hard for every single point whether or not another team is in a bad situation but I can't help feeling that they will scrap a little harder knowing that survival is slightly more likely. Also, I suspect every other team that meets them will try a little harder to inflict punishment. Preventing them a TSB will be a lot more meaningful this season than in previous ones for example. Again, it shouldn't be the case but human nature is what it is.


On the other hand, a top team will not see them as competition for the play-offs - so losing to them won't hurt as much and they could save their best teams for match ups that count for more.


Although it is also better for the top teams for the couple of years if they get relegated


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:41 am 
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So they've accepted they're cheats at last.

Pretty embarrassing for the lads who went to bat for them (DD and KidA most embarrassing of all)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:01 am 
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How long is the grace period to get under the cap? I have seen it somewhere.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:37 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
How long is the grace period to get under the cap? I have seen it somewhere.


Less than three years.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:53 am 
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:lol:

I'm sure I read somewhere that they have already made the adjustments to get within the cap. No idea if that is true though.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:15 am 
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:x

No serious I think it was 6 months from the review? Don’t make me read the thing on twitter again.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:26 am 
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But yeah they’re saying they’re under the cap, with the same players...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:28 am 
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MrJonno wrote:
Ulsters Red Hand wrote:
Good, more or less admitting they are cheating twats and accepting the punishments. Also means any more dirt on them won't come out

They won't but I sincerely hope they get relegated, cheating scum


For all the talk about the recent seasons were a 35 point deduction would not have seen them relegated, this still gives a lifeline to the struggling clubs early in the season. I know they should be scrapping equally as hard for every single point whether or not another team is in a bad situation but I can't help feeling that they will scrap a little harder knowing that survival is slightly more likely. Also, I suspect every other team that meets them will try a little harder to inflict punishment. Preventing them a TSB will be a lot more meaningful this season than in previous ones for example. Again, it shouldn't be the case but human nature is what it is.

It's certainly more likely they could go down given it's a world cup year and historically the season will probably be a little flat. However, penalising them 35 points because they have so many star players is a bit ironic, they'll still comfortably survive and be a season out from the champions cup but that's about it. Obviously there will be some financial implications but i'm more interested to see what happens to the composition of the squad - you would assume they would be forced to sell a few

Whatever happens I just hope we never see them at the top table again. Cheating scum x(


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:29 am 
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Not quite the same players.


Out: Tolofua, Bird-Tulloch, Vailanu, Thompson-Stringer, Strettle, Henry Taylor, Billy Walker, Oli Morris, Tom Griffiths, Alfie Scopes, Alex Gliksten, Dom Day, Marcelo Bosch, Schalk Burger, Tadgh McElroy

In: Elliot Daly, Rhys Carré, Jack Singkleton, Alex Day, Josh Ibuanokpe, Sam Wainwright, Damian Willemse (loan) + two academy boys

So they've binned off a few more and you'd have to say Bosch, Burger, Day, Tolofua, Strettle would be decent wages. So I wouldn't be surprised if they'd brought their official wage bill down.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:42 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Not quite the same players.


Out: Tolofua, Bird-Tulloch, Vailanu, Thompson-Stringer, Strettle, Henry Taylor, Billy Walker, Oli Morris, Tom Griffiths, Alfie Scopes, Alex Gliksten, Dom Day, Marcelo Bosch, Schalk Burger, Tadgh McElroy

In: Elliot Daly, Rhys Carré, Jack Singkleton, Alex Day, Josh Ibuanokpe, Sam Wainwright, Damian Willemse (loan) + two academy boys

So they've binned off a few more and you'd have to say Bosch, Burger, Day, Tolofua, Strettle would be decent wages. So I wouldn't be surprised if they'd brought their official wage bill down.


I wouldn’t have thought there’s much in it? Lot of bibs on the way out plus oldies on reduced wedge.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:43 am 
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I don't think any of those 'oldies' were on a reduced wage, except maybe Strettle and even then he'd have commanded a good salary from anyone else.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:29 pm 
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Ulsters Red Hand wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
Ulsters Red Hand wrote:
Good, more or less admitting they are cheating twats and accepting the punishments. Also means any more dirt on them won't come out

They won't but I sincerely hope they get relegated, cheating scum


For all the talk about the recent seasons were a 35 point deduction would not have seen them relegated, this still gives a lifeline to the struggling clubs early in the season. I know they should be scrapping equally as hard for every single point whether or not another team is in a bad situation but I can't help feeling that they will scrap a little harder knowing that survival is slightly more likely. Also, I suspect every other team that meets them will try a little harder to inflict punishment. Preventing them a TSB will be a lot more meaningful this season than in previous ones for example. Again, it shouldn't be the case but human nature is what it is.

It's certainly more likely they could go down given it's a world cup year and historically the season will probably be a little flat. However, penalising them 35 points because they have so many star players is a bit ironic, they'll still comfortably survive and be a season out from the champions cup but that's about it. Obviously there will be some financial implications but i'm more interested to see what happens to the composition of the squad - you would assume they would be forced to sell a few

Whatever happens I just hope we never see them at the top table again. Cheating scum x(

Also if you look at the teams at the bottom of the league, they are each likely to win quite a few games. Briz and wuss are not mugs this year. I think it will be a higher than average relegation.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:30 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Not quite the same players.


Out: Tolofua, Bird-Tulloch, Vailanu, Thompson-Stringer, Strettle, Henry Taylor, Billy Walker, Oli Morris, Tom Griffiths, Alfie Scopes, Alex Gliksten, Dom Day, Marcelo Bosch, Schalk Burger, Tadgh McElroy

In: Elliot Daly, Rhys Carré, Jack Singkleton, Alex Day, Josh Ibuanokpe, Sam Wainwright, Damian Willemse (loan) + two academy boys

So they've binned off a few more and you'd have to say Bosch, Burger, Day, Tolofua, Strettle would be decent wages. So I wouldn't be surprised if they'd brought their official wage bill down.


But that still leaves the question of the value of various, investments ?

Saying they're now complying, implies that there is now some agreed valuation of these investments, & I haven't seen anything for the League to say that they've agreed to any such valuation, & that the combined value of these schemes & the official payroll, is now less than the cap ?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:39 pm 
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There's really no way of knowing if they're over or under for the season until the end of the season when they do the sums.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:44 pm 
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Excuse my ignorance but how and why did the salary cap get introduced in the premiership , and does football have the same thing ?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:02 pm 
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Quote:
Excuse my ignorance


No.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:42 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
I don't think any of those 'oldies' were on a reduced wage, except maybe Strettle and even then he'd have commanded a good salary from anyone else.



I think Danny Care indicated that Strettle left Quins because he was the last of a bunch to negotiate a new deal and by the time he came here was less cash available so off to Saracens he went for better money. Of course I can only assume players enquired why Strettle didn't stay and the club told them they had hit the cap, hence why he knew.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:05 pm 
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backrow wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but how and why did the salary cap get introduced in the premiership , and does football have the same thing ?


Football doesn't as far as I know and is a very good argument in favour of one.

The cap is essentially there to promote a competitive league and making sure that one team with a rich sugar daddy can't just hoard all the best talent, effectively buying wins.

Until the recent increases it was a set at a level that could provide a modicum of sustainability (a few clubs actually turning a profit or hovering around breaking even)

Wiki actually has a fairly succinct summary:
The league turned professional for the 1996–97 season when the first winners were London Wasps, joining Bath and Leicester as the only champions in the league's first decade. Clubs like Saracens, Newcastle and Northampton were able to attract wealthy benefactors, but the professional era also had its casualties, as clubs like West Hartlepool, Richmond and London Scottish were forced into administration when their backers pulled out.[3]


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:47 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
paddyor wrote:
Yes, and if he appeal had gone ahead they'd have prioritized the league anyway......

But it's fair to say there would be uncertainty and maybe he'd weight his decisions differently. I think it's reasonable for him to prefer to know exactly where the club stands.

It's nonsense to make it sound like they're taking a decision rather than having it handed down to them.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:51 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
backrow wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but how and why did the salary cap get introduced in the premiership , and does football have the same thing ?


Football doesn't as far as I know and is a very good argument in favour of one.

The cap is essentially there to promote a competitive league and making sure that one team with a rich sugar daddy can't just hoard all the best talent, effectively buying wins.

Until the recent increases it was a set at a level that could provide a modicum of sustainability (a few clubs actually turning a profit or hovering around breaking even)

Wiki actually has a fairly succinct summary:
The league turned professional for the 1996–97 season when the first winners were London Wasps, joining Bath and Leicester as the only champions in the league's first decade. Clubs like Saracens, Newcastle and Northampton were able to attract wealthy benefactors, but the professional era also had its casualties, as clubs like West Hartlepool, Richmond and London Scottish were forced into administration when their backers pulled out.[3]



UEFA does have the Financial Fair Play rules though; & if they were implemented in Rugby, there'd be Top Division with Exeter A V Exeter B every weekend !


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