Saracens - Why are they still playing??

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cubby boi
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Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by cubby boi »

Wanted to start a new thread here as the other thread and the sanctions only seem to be discussing and punishing previous exploitation of the salary cap.

Surely the most pressing issue here is to make sure that Saracens are not currently, still breaking the cap. They should be banned until they can show they are currently under, regardless of the punishments for previous seasons.

Might I start by suggesting Liam Williams and Rhys Carre to Scarlets. You’re welcome.
Last edited by cubby boi on Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DragsterDriver
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Re: Saracens

Post by DragsterDriver »

Have you been in a coma?
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eldanielfire
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Re: Saracens

Post by eldanielfire »

This has already been discussed in the other thread. Though no one knows what action will be taken.
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Re: Saracens

Post by cubby boi »

I realise it may have been mentioned, but it’s also been lost in the overall scandal. I just thought this specifically needed more light shed on it.
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Re: Saracens

Post by SaintK »

cubby boi wrote:Wanted to start a new thread here as the other thread and the sanctions only seem to be discussing and punishing previous exploitation of the salary cap.

Surely the most pressing issue here is to make sure that Saracens are not currently, still breaking the cap. They should be banned until they can show they are currently under, regardless of the punishments for previous seasons.

Might I start by suggesting Liam Williams and Rhys Carre to Scarlets. You’re welcome.
Williams has already been linked to Ospreys. Do keep up
cubby boi
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by cubby boi »

Given that they’ve qualified for Europe fraudulently, they should also be disqualified from that comp before it even starts.
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by cubby boi »

Surely, before deciding how they should punish previous transgressions and titles won fraudulently, they should be making sure they are not continuing to do so.
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Raggs
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by Raggs »

They have another 8 months or so to put their house in order this season.
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sturginho
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Re: Saracens

Post by sturginho »

SaintK wrote:
cubby boi wrote:Wanted to start a new thread here as the other thread and the sanctions only seem to be discussing and punishing previous exploitation of the salary cap.

Surely the most pressing issue here is to make sure that Saracens are not currently, still breaking the cap. They should be banned until they can show they are currently under, regardless of the punishments for previous seasons.

Might I start by suggesting Liam Williams and Rhys Carre to Scarlets. You’re welcome.
Williams has already been linked to Ospreys. Do keep up
I thought Williams' salary didnt count towards the cap, so sending him away isn't going to help?
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by cubby boi »

Raggs wrote:They have another 8 months or so to put their house in order this season.
Why? These penalties are for the previous seasons aren’t they? Why should they be allowed to continue to accrue more and keep cheating?
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by cubby boi »

There’s no reason that this shouldn’t happen. It’s not even as if their players would suffer as there will be plenty of clubs lining up to take them off their hands (once Saracens have also paid them some compensation for their incompetence)
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by JM2K6 »

cubby boi wrote:There’s no reason that this shouldn’t happen. It’s not even as if their players would suffer as there will be plenty of clubs lining up to take them off their hands (once Saracens have also paid them some compensation for their incompetence)
Name the clubs that can pay for these guys under their current budgets and/or salary cap or equivalent.
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Re: Saracens

Post by cubby boi »

sturginho wrote:
SaintK wrote:
cubby boi wrote:Wanted to start a new thread here as the other thread and the sanctions only seem to be discussing and punishing previous exploitation of the salary cap.

Surely the most pressing issue here is to make sure that Saracens are not currently, still breaking the cap. They should be banned until they can show they are currently under, regardless of the punishments for previous seasons.

Might I start by suggesting Liam Williams and Rhys Carre to Scarlets. You’re welcome.
Williams has already been linked to Ospreys. Do keep up
I thought Williams' salary didnt count towards the cap, so sending him away isn't going to help?
Is this some “marquee player” rule? If so then they could nominate another, so of course it would help. However I believe the Williams rumours are for next season, when he’s out of contract and nothing to do with rectifying the current overspend.
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blindcider
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Re: Saracens

Post by blindcider »

cubby boi wrote:
sturginho wrote:
SaintK wrote:
cubby boi wrote:Wanted to start a new thread here as the other thread and the sanctions only seem to be discussing and punishing previous exploitation of the salary cap.

Surely the most pressing issue here is to make sure that Saracens are not currently, still breaking the cap. They should be banned until they can show they are currently under, regardless of the punishments for previous seasons.

Might I start by suggesting Liam Williams and Rhys Carre to Scarlets. You’re welcome.
Williams has already been linked to Ospreys. Do keep up
I thought Williams' salary didnt count towards the cap, so sending him away isn't going to help?
Is this some “marquee player” rule? If so then they could nominate another, so of course it would help. However I believe the Williams rumours are for next season, when he’s out of contract and nothing to do with rectifying the current overspend.
Nope, they can't. Needs to be on an 'overseas' player new to the league
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by cubby boi »

JM2K6 wrote:
cubby boi wrote:There’s no reason that this shouldn’t happen. It’s not even as if their players would suffer as there will be plenty of clubs lining up to take them off their hands (once Saracens have also paid them some compensation for their incompetence)
Name the clubs that can pay for these guys under their current budgets and/or salary cap or equivalent.
As we have seen with Saracens over the years, it is impossible to know the full financial workings of these clubs, so you ask a silly question.

Stick them on the market and see. If there are no takers (there would be), then Saracens continue to pay their wages and they get a holiday.

Saracens have been acting fraudulently for years and benefitting massively financially and otherwise. It’s only fair that they now pay the price for that. If it ends them, then so be it. They’re no more entitled to be where they are than, say London Welsh.
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Re: Saracens

Post by cubby boi »

blindcider wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
sturginho wrote:
SaintK wrote:
cubby boi wrote:Wanted to start a new thread here as the other thread and the sanctions only seem to be discussing and punishing previous exploitation of the salary cap.

Surely the most pressing issue here is to make sure that Saracens are not currently, still breaking the cap. They should be banned until they can show they are currently under, regardless of the punishments for previous seasons.

Might I start by suggesting Liam Williams and Rhys Carre to Scarlets. You’re welcome.
Williams has already been linked to Ospreys. Do keep up
I thought Williams' salary didnt count towards the cap, so sending him away isn't going to help?
Is this some “marquee player” rule? If so then they could nominate another, so of course it would help. However I believe the Williams rumours are for next season, when he’s out of contract and nothing to do with rectifying the current overspend.
Nope, they can't. Needs to be on an 'overseas' player new to the league
Rhys Carre. Job done.
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Re: Saracens

Post by Saint »

cubby boi wrote:
blindcider wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
sturginho wrote:
SaintK wrote: Williams has already been linked to Ospreys. Do keep up
I thought Williams' salary didnt count towards the cap, so sending him away isn't going to help?
Is this some “marquee player” rule? If so then they could nominate another, so of course it would help. However I believe the Williams rumours are for next season, when he’s out of contract and nothing to do with rectifying the current overspend.
Nope, they can't. Needs to be on an 'overseas' player new to the league
Rhys Carre. Job done.
he's already on the books not as a marquee player.
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Saint
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by Saint »

cubby boi wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
cubby boi wrote:There’s no reason that this shouldn’t happen. It’s not even as if their players would suffer as there will be plenty of clubs lining up to take them off their hands (once Saracens have also paid them some compensation for their incompetence)
Name the clubs that can pay for these guys under their current budgets and/or salary cap or equivalent.
As we have seen with Saracens over the years, it is impossible to know the full financial workings of these clubs, so you ask a silly question.

Stick them on the market and see. If there are no takers (there would be), then Saracens continue to pay their wages and they get a holiday.

Saracens have been acting fraudulently for years and benefitting massively financially and otherwise. It’s only fair that they now pay the price for that. If it ends them, then so be it. They’re no more entitled to be where they are than, say London Welsh.
Certainly not in the Premiership. Clubs are either spending to the cap, or can't afford to spend to the cap. If someone retires mid season then there might be space, but you;re only talking about 1 or 2 players.

Also worth noting that your idea of Sarries paying compensation makes things worse. The compensation would fall inside the cap.......
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by JM2K6 »

cubby boi wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
cubby boi wrote:There’s no reason that this shouldn’t happen. It’s not even as if their players would suffer as there will be plenty of clubs lining up to take them off their hands (once Saracens have also paid them some compensation for their incompetence)
Name the clubs that can pay for these guys under their current budgets and/or salary cap or equivalent.
As we have seen with Saracens over the years, it is impossible to know the full financial workings of these clubs, so you ask a silly question.

Stick them on the market and see. If there are no takers (there would be), then Saracens continue to pay their wages and they get a holiday.

Saracens have been acting fraudulently for years and benefitting massively financially and otherwise. It’s only fair that they now pay the price for that. If it ends them, then so be it. They’re no more entitled to be where they are than, say London Welsh.
It's not a silly question. You don't seem to understand how club budgets work.

Which players should have their legal work contracts cancelled, do you think?
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by cubby boi »

I’m not talking about tearing contracts up. Saracens are liable for their wages. They may even need to contribute to their wages if they go elsewhere.

I’m saying take them permanently off the registered squad and thus out of the salary cap. The onus is then on Saracens to get someone to take some or all of their wage burden off their hands.
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by JM2K6 »

So we're back to the thing about club budgets.
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by Ali's Choice »

Fair to say that English fans who also support Saracens haven't had a great week?
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by blindcider »

cubby boi wrote:I’m not talking about tearing contracts up. Saracens are liable for their wages. They may even need to contribute to their wages if they go elsewhere.

I’m saying take them permanently off the registered squad and thus out of the salary cap. The onus is then on Saracens to get someone to take some or all of their wage burden off their hands.
Yes because thats going to work :lol:
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by blindcider »

Ali's Choice wrote:Fair to say that English fans who also support Saracens haven't had a great week?
Yeah Croyals and that other bloke are a little bit miffed
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by SaintK »

cubby boi wrote:I’m not talking about tearing contracts up. Saracens are liable for their wages. They may even need to contribute to their wages if they go elsewhere.

I’m saying take them permanently off the registered squad and thus out of the salary cap. The onus is then on Saracens to get someone to take some or all of their wage burden off their hands.
yes, righty-ho!
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by cubby boi »

SaintK wrote:
cubby boi wrote:I’m not talking about tearing contracts up. Saracens are liable for their wages. They may even need to contribute to their wages if they go elsewhere.

I’m saying take them permanently off the registered squad and thus out of the salary cap. The onus is then on Saracens to get someone to take some or all of their wage burden off their hands.
yes, righty-ho!
So you’d prefer the alternative, which is to allow them to continue to cheat and allow all of the other clubs to continue wasting millions of pounds trying to compete with an unfair disadvantage? Please do answer that.
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by inactionman »

I'd like to see a regulated approach where they get themselves under the cap through natural expiry of contract - they've been punished for going over cap, and the contracts that take them over cap remain valid under UK law so I can't see what else there is to logically do.

Even not playing certain players to have a reduced 'playing squad' under the cap unfairly penalises excluded players - external sponsorships, playing bonuses, career progression etc etc.
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by Gospel »

cubby boi wrote:So you’d prefer the alternative, which is to allow them to continue to cheat and allow all of the other clubs to continue wasting millions of pounds trying to compete with an unfair disadvantage? Please do answer that.
Out of curiosity which Premiership Club are you a supporter of?
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by spookly »

inactionman wrote:I'd like to see a regulated approach where they get themselves under the cap through natural expiry of contract - they've been punished for going over cap, and the contracts that take them over cap remain valid under UK law so I can't see what else there is to logically do.

Even not playing certain players to have a reduced 'playing squad' under the cap unfairly penalises excluded players - external sponsorships, playing bonuses, career progression etc etc.
So how is that fair for the next couple of years where Saracens would still be fielding an unfairly strong squad? For the whole league not to be a joke this needs to be resolved right now.

I support Bath. I'd feel miffed if Bath lost to Saracens in their next game if Saracens are still fielding a squad outside the salary cap. Saracens have already ruined the competitive element of the league for 3+ years, they shouldn't be allowed to continue to do so.

All of the Saracens squad, particularly those paid by dodgy means, will have been well aware of their squad size and composition and that there was something fishy. Every supporter of the league knew that their squad looked nothing like anything that would fit within the salary cap.

I'd support a model where each club has to produce a public annual statement of player remuneration. It'd be nice to see how much some of Saracens star players were paid via salary and how much through these dodgy investments. They wouldn't even have to reveal names, just a list of the composition and amount of each players total payments.
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by inactionman »

spookly wrote:
inactionman wrote:I'd like to see a regulated approach where they get themselves under the cap through natural expiry of contract - they've been punished for going over cap, and the contracts that take them over cap remain valid under UK law so I can't see what else there is to logically do.

Even not playing certain players to have a reduced 'playing squad' under the cap unfairly penalises excluded players - external sponsorships, playing bonuses, career progression etc etc.
So how is that fair for the next couple of years where Saracens would still be fielding an unfairly strong squad? For the whole league not to be a joke this needs to be resolved right now.

I support Bath. I'd feel miffed if Bath lost to Saracens in their next game if Saracens are still fielding a squad outside the salary cap. Saracens have already ruined the competitive element of the league for 3+ years, they shouldn't be allowed to continue to do so.

All of the Saracens squad, particularly those paid by dodgy means, will have been well aware of their squad size and composition and that there was something fishy. Every supporter of the league knew that their squad looked nothing like anything that would fit within the salary cap.

I'd support a model where each club has to produce a public annual statement of player remuneration. It'd be nice to see how much some of Saracens star players were paid via salary and how much through these dodgy investments. They wouldn't even have to reveal names, just a list of the composition and amount of each players total payments.
If you can find a way to do it within employment law, by all means go ahead. This is why it's such a clusterfuck, and why 35 points is justified - once you're over, you can't just slide a scale downwards on demand, the contracts remain valid and - as far as I'm aware - Sarries cannot unilaterally change or offer inducements (Christ, how ironic that would be) for the player to accept reduced terms. What this should mean is that no contract can be extended or offered until the cap is satisfied - given lengths of contracts are typically a couple of years, I'd expect a whole load to be up at the back end of the season - a season where Sarries have been punished by a 35 point deduction. If they're still over next season, another points deduction.

(I'm also a Bath fan, despite exile north of border - the cap is why Attwood was released, would have loved to have kept him on but couldn't. So of course he goes and puts in a good shift for Bristol against us first game of the season).
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by lorcanoworms »

cubby boi wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
cubby boi wrote:There’s no reason that this shouldn’t happen. It’s not even as if their players would suffer as there will be plenty of clubs lining up to take them off their hands (once Saracens have also paid them some compensation for their incompetence)
Name the clubs that can pay for these guys under their current budgets and/or salary cap or equivalent.
As we have seen with Saracens over the years, it is impossible to know the full financial workings of these clubs, so you ask a silly question.

Stick them on the market and see. If there are no takers (there would be), then Saracens continue to pay their wages and they get a holiday.

Saracens have been acting fraudulently for years and benefitting massively financially and otherwise. It’s only fair that they now pay the price for that. If it ends them, then so be it. They’re no more entitled to be where they are than, say London Welsh.
Munster will take all off them due to having an unlimited budget because they don't pay their bills , not even their tailors.
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by blindcider »

inactionman wrote:
spookly wrote:
inactionman wrote:I'd like to see a regulated approach where they get themselves under the cap through natural expiry of contract - they've been punished for going over cap, and the contracts that take them over cap remain valid under UK law so I can't see what else there is to logically do.

Even not playing certain players to have a reduced 'playing squad' under the cap unfairly penalises excluded players - external sponsorships, playing bonuses, career progression etc etc.
So how is that fair for the next couple of years where Saracens would still be fielding an unfairly strong squad? For the whole league not to be a joke this needs to be resolved right now.

I support Bath. I'd feel miffed if Bath lost to Saracens in their next game if Saracens are still fielding a squad outside the salary cap. Saracens have already ruined the competitive element of the league for 3+ years, they shouldn't be allowed to continue to do so.

All of the Saracens squad, particularly those paid by dodgy means, will have been well aware of their squad size and composition and that there was something fishy. Every supporter of the league knew that their squad looked nothing like anything that would fit within the salary cap.

I'd support a model where each club has to produce a public annual statement of player remuneration. It'd be nice to see how much some of Saracens star players were paid via salary and how much through these dodgy investments. They wouldn't even have to reveal names, just a list of the composition and amount of each players total payments.
If you can find a way to do it within employment law, by all means go ahead. This is why it's such a clusterfuck, and why 35 points is justified - once you're over, you can't just slide a scale downwards on demand, the contracts remain valid and - as far as I'm aware - Sarries cannot unilaterally change or offer inducements (Christ, how ironic that would be) for the player to accept reduced terms. What this should mean is that no contract can be extended or offered until the cap is satisfied - given lengths of contracts are typically a couple of years, I'd expect a whole load to be up at the back end of the season - a season where Sarries have been punished by a 35 point deduction. If they're still over next season, another points deduction.

(I'm also a Bath fan, despite exile north of border - the cap is why Attwood was released, would have loved to have kept him on but couldn't. So of course he goes and puts in a good shift for Bristol against us first game of the season).
I knew you two were wrong 'uns. Supporting Bath is even worse than supporting that inbred rabble just up the M5
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by croyals »

blindcider wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:Fair to say that English fans who also support Saracens haven't had a great week?
Yeah Croyals and that other bloke are a little bit miffed
I’m having a weekend off rugby, going to go hiking...
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by JM2K6 »

croyals wrote:
blindcider wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:Fair to say that English fans who also support Saracens haven't had a great week?
Yeah Croyals and that other bloke are a little bit miffed
I’m having a weekend off rugby, going to go hiking...
Quins did something similar last weekend



:x
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by SaintK »

cubby boi wrote:
SaintK wrote:
cubby boi wrote:I’m not talking about tearing contracts up. Saracens are liable for their wages. They may even need to contribute to their wages if they go elsewhere.

I’m saying take them permanently off the registered squad and thus out of the salary cap. The onus is then on Saracens to get someone to take some or all of their wage burden off their hands.
yes, righty-ho!
So you’d prefer the alternative, which is to allow them to continue to cheat and allow all of the other clubs to continue wasting millions of pounds trying to compete with an unfair disadvantage? Please do answer that.
I know you are enjoying the shit-stirring but there will be a least 6 months legal toing an froing before we see anything happen to Saracens. Like you, I haven't a clue what it will be.
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by Rugby2023 »

cubby boi wrote:Given that they’ve qualified for Europe fraudulently, they should also be disqualified from that comp before it even starts.
In case they win it again? :)
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by spookly »

inactionman wrote:
spookly wrote:
inactionman wrote:I'd like to see a regulated approach where they get themselves under the cap through natural expiry of contract - they've been punished for going over cap, and the contracts that take them over cap remain valid under UK law so I can't see what else there is to logically do.

Even not playing certain players to have a reduced 'playing squad' under the cap unfairly penalises excluded players - external sponsorships, playing bonuses, career progression etc etc.
So how is that fair for the next couple of years where Saracens would still be fielding an unfairly strong squad? For the whole league not to be a joke this needs to be resolved right now.

I support Bath. I'd feel miffed if Bath lost to Saracens in their next game if Saracens are still fielding a squad outside the salary cap. Saracens have already ruined the competitive element of the league for 3+ years, they shouldn't be allowed to continue to do so.

All of the Saracens squad, particularly those paid by dodgy means, will have been well aware of their squad size and composition and that there was something fishy. Every supporter of the league knew that their squad looked nothing like anything that would fit within the salary cap.

I'd support a model where each club has to produce a public annual statement of player remuneration. It'd be nice to see how much some of Saracens star players were paid via salary and how much through these dodgy investments. They wouldn't even have to reveal names, just a list of the composition and amount of each players total payments.
If you can find a way to do it within employment law, by all means go ahead. This is why it's such a clusterfuck, and why 35 points is justified - once you're over, you can't just slide a scale downwards on demand, the contracts remain valid and - as far as I'm aware - Sarries cannot unilaterally change or offer inducements (Christ, how ironic that would be) for the player to accept reduced terms. What this should mean is that no contract can be extended or offered until the cap is satisfied - given lengths of contracts are typically a couple of years, I'd expect a whole load to be up at the back end of the season - a season where Sarries have been punished by a 35 point deduction. If they're still over next season, another points deduction.

(I'm also a Bath fan, despite exile north of border - the cap is why Attwood was released, would have loved to have kept him on but couldn't. So of course he goes and puts in a good shift for Bristol against us first game of the season).
Easy.
Saracens have to nominate a number of players who will not play in premiership games for the rest of the season.
Or Saracens have to put enough players out on free loans to other premiership clubs to get under the cap, then the players at least might get a game.
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by spookly »

SaintK wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
SaintK wrote:
cubby boi wrote:I’m not talking about tearing contracts up. Saracens are liable for their wages. They may even need to contribute to their wages if they go elsewhere.

I’m saying take them permanently off the registered squad and thus out of the salary cap. The onus is then on Saracens to get someone to take some or all of their wage burden off their hands.
yes, righty-ho!
So you’d prefer the alternative, which is to allow them to continue to cheat and allow all of the other clubs to continue wasting millions of pounds trying to compete with an unfair disadvantage? Please do answer that.
I know you are enjoying the shit-stirring but there will be a least 6 months legal toing an froing before we see anything happen to Saracens. Like you, I haven't a clue what it will be.
Probably.
But the current punishment they are having 'reviewed' is for the past 3 seasons.
If they were over the salary cap in previous seasons then they're almost certainly still over it now. So should we expect a second judgement for this years cap being breached? I don't see why not.
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SaintK
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by SaintK »

spookly wrote:
SaintK wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
SaintK wrote:
cubby boi wrote:I’m not talking about tearing contracts up. Saracens are liable for their wages. They may even need to contribute to their wages if they go elsewhere.

I’m saying take them permanently off the registered squad and thus out of the salary cap. The onus is then on Saracens to get someone to take some or all of their wage burden off their hands.
yes, righty-ho!
So you’d prefer the alternative, which is to allow them to continue to cheat and allow all of the other clubs to continue wasting millions of pounds trying to compete with an unfair disadvantage? Please do answer that.
I know you are enjoying the shit-stirring but there will be a least 6 months legal toing an froing before we see anything happen to Saracens. Like you, I haven't a clue what it will be.
Probably.
But the current punishment they are having 'reviewed' is for the past 3 seasons.
If they were over the salary cap in previous seasons then they're almost certainly still over it now. So should we expect a second judgement for this years cap being breached? I don't see why not.
Neither do I, but it's going to be a shit-fight between lawyers first.
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Gospel
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Re: Saracens - Why are they still playing??

Post by Gospel »

spookly wrote:Easy.
Saracens have to nominate a number of players who will not play in premiership games for the rest of the season.
Or Saracens have to put enough players out on free loans to other premiership clubs to get under the cap, then the players at least might get a game.
They might find themselves in breach of a player's contract. I can't imagine too many of their big stars [the high earners] would be happy about being sat down or farmed out. It's going to get very messy indeed if the Clubs go through with punishing Saracens to the full extent of PRL rules.
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