All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

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CrazyIslander
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by CrazyIslander »

Wilderbeast wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
booji boy wrote:What makes me laugh about all these comments about the non selection of a player like Ben Smith as if would have somehow saved the day is that he was on the field when were were similarly f**ked over by the Wallabies in Perth and he played so poorly in that match he was dropped. What possible difference would he have made.
Semi final - big match experience. Making the right decisions.
Ben Smith would rather forget about his other RWC semi I think...
You're missing the point. The ABs just needed to hold their nerve coz they had momentum. Smith had that experience.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by UncleFB »

booji boy wrote:What makes me laugh about all these comments about the non selection of a player like Ben Smith as if would have somehow saved the day is that he was on the field when were were similarly f**ked over by the Wallabies in Perth and he played so poorly in that match he was dropped. What possible difference would he have made.
You're over egging that, the team played so poorly in Perth that the wings had no chance, Hansen overreacted and consigned them both to the bin, which meant we never got the chance to give Smith and Ioane a decent shot.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by Ted. »

JB1981 wrote:Good summary. The frustrating thing is that you could change the year to 2018 and a lot would still apply, but the coaching team couldn’t see or wouldn’t accept it this.
Precisely.

I'd add our loose forwards to the mid-field as an area we underperformed in. We didn't further the play of some individual and only settled on Savea, Cane and Read as a stopgap.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by naki »

CrazyIslander wrote:
booji boy wrote:What makes me laugh about all these comments about the non selection of a player like Ben Smith as if would have somehow saved the day is that he was on the field when were were similarly f**ked over by the Wallabies in Perth and he played so poorly in that match he was dropped. What possible difference would he have made.
Semi final - big match experience. Making the right decisions.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

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booji boy wrote:What makes me laugh about all these comments about the non selection of a player like Ben Smith as if would have somehow saved the day is that he was on the field when were were similarly f**ked over by the Wallabies in Perth and he played so poorly in that match he was dropped. What possible difference would he have made.
The selection crisis which the AB's suffered this year was never about one player, although of course arguments can be made in hindsight in support of starting with Sam Cane, Ben Smith, SBW etc for the semi final.

The underlying issue was that Steve Hansen and his co-selectors never allowed combinations to form. They never settled on a first choice team. And with an overall winning percentage of nearly 90%, they had every opportunity to do this. They had every opportunity to lock in a their first choice XXIII and give them 20-25 tests over the course of the 2017, 2018 and 2019 seasons to gel. But Hansen, Foster and Fox thought they knew better than this. They thought they were too clever. Constant rotation, constant mixing and matching, constant experimentation, and we ended up with a team that couldn't perform when it really mattered. That's simply inexcusable.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by Kiwias »

True Blue wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:Your biggest mistake was picking Jordie over Ben Smith for the bench. Despite everything England did you were only a try down with 20 or so mins to go after Savea scored. Jordie threw a shit pass deep in his half rather and booting it down the field. It was a typical youngster's attitude that he had to do something special rather then choose the mundane option. He forgot that there was plenty of time. That's where you lost it.
Hansens love affair with Jordie is a mystery that's for sure. One of many odd selections over the last couple of years. Even an out of form and tired Ben Smith is superior to Jordie.

I think many of us said that at the time. His non-selection of Smith, his weird non selection of Cane, and his weird shuffling around of players over the last 18 months was very Un-New Zealand like, something we hadn't really done since 2007.

For memory sake, here was that team.
New Zealand: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.
There's some weird selections there, no one can deny that. I mean two rookie centres AND a rookie flyhalf in a major match. You have a lock shoehorned into a loose forward role despite having a very competent and specialist loose forward and you have a VERY hot and cold Jordie Barrett on the bench trying to cover three positions at once and leaving out Ben Smith who is a proven superstar.

This is a team you select against second tier as an experiment, not as a core team against a proven and in form opponent.

Weird shit. Would love to know what the hell Hansens group were smoking when they came up with that team.
If that team had been picked in mid-2017 at the latest and been kept as the regular starting squad, we would not be having this conversation now. #InShagITrustedStupidFuckingMe
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by Ali's Choice »

Kiwias wrote:#InShagITrustedStupidFuckingMe
:lol:
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CrazyIslander
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by CrazyIslander »

naki wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
booji boy wrote:What makes me laugh about all these comments about the non selection of a player like Ben Smith as if would have somehow saved the day is that he was on the field when were were similarly f**ked over by the Wallabies in Perth and he played so poorly in that match he was dropped. What possible difference would he have made.
Semi final - big match experience. Making the right decisions.
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Iirc it was a tackle on Drew Mitchell. Irrelevant. We are talking about experience at the back in a big game.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by True Blue »

CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:In a game where we were royally f**ked over up front, second best tactically, never looked like scoring a try that wasn’t given to us and with England missing out on two tries, you think the biggest mistake was who was the sub for the outside backs?
I've seen countless ABs matches where they've been outplayed but still won. With 20 mins to go after the Savea try it seemed like one of those matches. All they needed was to get back into England's half. They did not need to throw passes near their 22.
Including the game against SA earlier in the tournament.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by naki »

CrazyIslander wrote:
naki wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
booji boy wrote:What makes me laugh about all these comments about the non selection of a player like Ben Smith as if would have somehow saved the day is that he was on the field when were were similarly f**ked over by the Wallabies in Perth and he played so poorly in that match he was dropped. What possible difference would he have made.
Semi final - big match experience. Making the right decisions.
Image
Iirc it was a tackle on Drew Mitchell. Irrelevant. We are talking about experience at the back in a big game.
Every tackle involves decision making. Just making the point that Bender doesn’t have the best track record in big knock out games. His unfortunate knock-on that allowed Australia into that game early on would have been a crucifiable offence for someone like Jordie also.

Would I have preferred to have Smith in the team over Jordie? Of course. But that selection is way down the list of what cost us the test
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by naki »

True Blue wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:In a game where we were royally f**ked over up front, second best tactically, never looked like scoring a try that wasn’t given to us and with England missing out on two tries, you think the biggest mistake was who was the sub for the outside backs?
I've seen countless ABs matches where they've been outplayed but still won. With 20 mins to go after the Savea try it seemed like one of those matches. All they needed was to get back into England's half. They did not need to throw passes near their 22.
Including the game against SA earlier in the tournament.
Nah we aced that game. Struggled early but controlled the game nicely after that sneak attack try from PsTD and should have won by more
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by CrazyIslander »

naki wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
naki wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
booji boy wrote:What makes me laugh about all these comments about the non selection of a player like Ben Smith as if would have somehow saved the day is that he was on the field when were were similarly f**ked over by the Wallabies in Perth and he played so poorly in that match he was dropped. What possible difference would he have made.
Semi final - big match experience. Making the right decisions.
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Iirc it was a tackle on Drew Mitchell. Irrelevant. We are talking about experience at the back in a big game.
Every tackle involves decision making. Just making the point that Bender doesn’t have the best track record in big knock out games. His unfortunate knock-on that allowed Australia into that game early on would have been a crucifiable offence for someone like Jordie also.

Would I have preferred to have Smith in the team over Jordie? Of course. But that selection is way down the list of what cost us the test
The tackle is a split second incident which he wouldn't have control in much of it. Catching the ball and having time to make a decision is where experience. Experience to know that SR tricks have no place in a WC semi final.

Throwing caution to the wind does not mean abandon all kicking. Think back 2000 Bledisloe in Wellington - Wallabies down on scoreboard with only a minute to go and in their own try line. Latkham kicked for touch instead of running it. Ended up getting a penalty to win it.

IMO Jordie caught the ball, looked up and felt he couldn't kick it over their back three meaning they'd counter attack and iirc he was just outside the 22 so couldn't kick out on the full. So balked a second too long to make any decision rushed.

An experienced player would've just put it up or as long as possible and trust the defense. Instead, Jordie gave England a relieving scrum near their attacking 22. England went from heads down and nervous to having their tails up.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by booji boy »

Ali's Choice wrote:
booji boy wrote:What makes me laugh about all these comments about the non selection of a player like Ben Smith as if would have somehow saved the day is that he was on the field when were were similarly f**ked over by the Wallabies in Perth and he played so poorly in that match he was dropped. What possible difference would he have made.
The selection crisis which the AB's suffered this year was never about one player, although of course arguments can be made in hindsight in support of starting with Sam Cane, Ben Smith, SBW etc for the semi final.

The underlying issue was that Steve Hansen and his co-selectors never allowed combinations to form. They never settled on a first choice team. And with an overall winning percentage of nearly 90%, they had every opportunity to do this. They had every opportunity to lock in a their first choice XXIII and give them 20-25 tests over the course of the 2017, 2018 and 2019 seasons to gel. But Hansen, Foster and Fox thought they knew better than this. They thought they were too clever. Constant rotation, constant mixing and matching, constant experimentation, and we ended up with a team that couldn't perform when it really mattered. That's simply inexcusable.
To me it seems we are talking about two different things. I agree the selectors never settled on their selections in midfield, the back row, 1st five etc and the constant chopping and changing, some due to injury tbf, 2016-18/19 meant the selections were always muddled. Right up to the start of the 2019 RWC we still didn't seem to know what our best 15 or 23 was. But that was a failing over that whole 2016-19 period and going into this RWC nothing could be done about that. The die was cast.

I'm just pointing out the absurdity of thinking that, all else being equal, the selection of Ben Smith ahead of Bridge or Jordie Barret would have made any difference to the outcome of that match on the day.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by Kahu »

Urgh all this revisionist shit. The English clearly put the shits up the ABs with their opposition to the haka. They won the mental battle before the whistle had blown. 2 minutes later they were still so stunned the boys forgot to contest the line out after Hansen talked shit all week in the media about targeting the line out and the mighty English orcs knew for certain the ABs were there for the taking.

A lot of people have pointed to various reasons like no Cane, Crotty, Ioane or Bender but for mine the 3 major reasons we lost which people rarely mention in order of importance

1. The Orcs wanted it more.
2. Rettalick and Whitelock were fucking useless
3. As was Aaron Smith. Why we played the best defensive halfback and loose forward impersonator TJP off the bench and started with the worst defensive Halfback in the world when our pack hasn't been consistently dominant for years is mind boggling
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by booji boy »

Now who's being revisionist? Smith has been the starting halfback since 2012 apart from that period when he was caught being a silly boy in the Christchurch Airport toilet. TJP is an excellent player but has nowhere near the passing game of Smith and has always been the bench player 2nd to Smith.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by Kahu »

No point having a Halfback with the fastest pass in the world and cannot tackle if his team can't hold and protect the pill. TJPs defensive efforts alongside a weak pack should not be underestimated.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by naki »

Yeah, it was the haka that did it.

I think we can wrap this review up now.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by deverix »

Ali's Choice wrote:
Grandpa wrote:I still think that NZ team could have won the world cup... even with the Scott Barrett aberration... had it been England in the quarterfinal, rather than the semi... I am pretty sure the All Blacks would have won...

It was all mental...
We can speculate and hypothesise as much as we like about how outcomes might have been different if different things had happened. At the end of the day we'll never know. The reality is that professional sports is a results based industry, and the results of 2019 were unacceptable. However no-one was held accountable for this and everyone on the coaching team, aside from the retiring Hansen, was either retained or promoted. NZR's actions since the RWC make it very clear that the board feel that the All Blacks performed well in 2019. They must be living in a fantasy land.
Absolutely and when you consider the strength of NZ's Super Rugby teams in the past four year cycle (2016,17,18,19) it really puts it into perspective the degree Hansen has underachieved with the national team, I'm fairly certain all the NZ teams except the Blues made the playoffs since 2015

despite having access to the very best of these 5 teams the All Blacks have been dysfunctional over the last 3 years, unable to perform greater than the sum of their super rugby parts, constant poor performances against teams that have less talent and depth to rely on, I put the blame on the coaches Hansen and Foz, reality is we should be doing far better with the advantage NZ has player wise,

the South African national team under Erasmus despite having relatively weak Super Rugby teams recently have been functioning greater than the sum of their Super Rugby parts because of great coaching it seems.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by CrazyIslander »

naki wrote:Yeah, it was the haka that did it.

I think we can wrap this review up now.
Yes it was the English V sign. We all know the ABs have a weakness for vagina.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by JB1981 »

naki wrote:Yeah, it was the haka that did it.

I think we can wrap this review up now.
:shock: :shock: I didn’t think NZ Rugby had published the minutes from their in-depth review. If you are going to put that up you might as well have the full quote.
Yeah, it was the haka that did it.

I think we can wrap up this review now. Steve and Ian, are you ok with that conclusion?

[Nods].

Right, let’s move on to appointing Fozzie .... I’m sorry, the head coach recruitment process [sniggers].
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by mr bungle »

deverix wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Grandpa wrote:I still think that NZ team could have won the world cup... even with the Scott Barrett aberration... had it been England in the quarterfinal, rather than the semi... I am pretty sure the All Blacks would have won...

It was all mental...
We can speculate and hypothesise as much as we like about how outcomes might have been different if different things had happened. At the end of the day we'll never know. The reality is that professional sports is a results based industry, and the results of 2019 were unacceptable. However no-one was held accountable for this and everyone on the coaching team, aside from the retiring Hansen, was either retained or promoted. NZR's actions since the RWC make it very clear that the board feel that the All Blacks performed well in 2019. They must be living in a fantasy land.
Absolutely and when you consider the strength of NZ's Super Rugby teams in the past four year cycle (2016,17,18,19) it really puts it into perspective the degree Hansen has underachieved with the national team, I'm fairly certain all the NZ teams except the Blues made the playoffs since 2015

despite having access to the very best of these 5 teams the All Blacks have been dysfunctional over the last 3 years, unable to perform greater than the sum of their super rugby parts, constant poor performances against teams that have less talent and depth to rely on, I put the blame on the coaches Hansen and Foz, reality is we should be doing far better with the advantage NZ has player wise,

the South African national team under Erasmus despite having relatively weak Super Rugby teams recently have been functioning greater than the sum of their Super Rugby parts because of great coaching it seems.
They also lost to NZ at the RWC. It’s time the importance of a one off tournament where draw plays a bigger hand than being the best team is downplayed. It’s not a great gauge. Neither is winning a shortened format tourney leading into the RWC.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by deverix »

mr bungle wrote:
deverix wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Grandpa wrote:I still think that NZ team could have won the world cup... even with the Scott Barrett aberration... had it been England in the quarterfinal, rather than the semi... I am pretty sure the All Blacks would have won...

It was all mental...
We can speculate and hypothesise as much as we like about how outcomes might have been different if different things had happened. At the end of the day we'll never know. The reality is that professional sports is a results based industry, and the results of 2019 were unacceptable. However no-one was held accountable for this and everyone on the coaching team, aside from the retiring Hansen, was either retained or promoted. NZR's actions since the RWC make it very clear that the board feel that the All Blacks performed well in 2019. They must be living in a fantasy land.
Absolutely and when you consider the strength of NZ's Super Rugby teams in the past four year cycle (2016,17,18,19) it really puts it into perspective the degree Hansen has underachieved with the national team, I'm fairly certain all the NZ teams except the Blues made the playoffs since 2015

despite having access to the very best of these 5 teams the All Blacks have been dysfunctional over the last 3 years, unable to perform greater than the sum of their super rugby parts, constant poor performances against teams that have less talent and depth to rely on, I put the blame on the coaches Hansen and Foz, reality is we should be doing far better with the advantage NZ has player wise,

the South African national team under Erasmus despite having relatively weak Super Rugby teams recently have been functioning greater than the sum of their Super Rugby parts because of great coaching it seems.
They also lost to NZ at the RWC. It’s time the importance of a one off tournament where draw plays a bigger hand than being the best team is downplayed. It’s not a great gauge. Neither is winning a shortened format tourney leading into the RWC.
On top of the England semi and record loss to Australia and 3rd in the Rugby Championship, this is unacceptable when our Super Rugby teams are regularly thrashing the Aussie and Saffa teams.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by obelixtim »

Read now owning up to tearing a calf muscle in the QF, and playing the SF carrying the injury. Another reason he was anonymous in that game. FFS.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

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obelixtim wrote:Read now owning up to tearing a calf muscle in the QF, and playing the SF carrying the injury. Another reason he was anonymous in that game. FFS.
McCaw played most of the 2011 RWC with a broken foot. Are you at least prepared to concede that the All Blacks medical staff and team doctor were in a better position to assess his fitness for that game than you or I?
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by obelixtim »

Ali's Choice wrote:
obelixtim wrote:Read now owning up to tearing a calf muscle in the QF, and playing the SF carrying the injury. Another reason he was anonymous in that game. FFS.
McCaw played most of the 2011 RWC with a broken foot. Are you at least prepared to concede that the All Blacks medical staff and team doctor were in a better position to assess his fitness for that game than you or I?
Read doesn't come close to the GOAT. I also thought the Goat kept his injury a secret from the cartel.

I will concede that the ABs medics and doc were in a better position than me to assess his fitness. Will you concede that maybe they f**ked up? Because Read certainly didn´t play like we know he can in that SF.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by Ali's Choice »

obelixtim wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
obelixtim wrote:Read now owning up to tearing a calf muscle in the QF, and playing the SF carrying the injury. Another reason he was anonymous in that game. FFS.
McCaw played most of the 2011 RWC with a broken foot. Are you at least prepared to concede that the All Blacks medical staff and team doctor were in a better position to assess his fitness for that game than you or I?
Read doesn't come close to the GOAT. I also thought the Goat kept his injury a secret from the cartel.

I will concede that the ABs medics and doc were in a better position than me to assess his fitness. Will you concede that maybe they f**ked up? Because Read certainly didn´t play like we know he can in that SF.
Part of the problem was that we had so few backrowers in the squad, because Hansen/Foster were determined to make room for Jordie Barrett and take additional outside backs. If Read had been ruled out for the SF our backrow would have looked incredibly makeshift. This might have put additional pressure on the team medic to pass him fit. I also think the myth of McCaw's foot is a dangerous one because it has put pressure on senior AB's to play through injury.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by obelixtim »

Ali's Choice wrote:
obelixtim wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
obelixtim wrote:Read now owning up to tearing a calf muscle in the QF, and playing the SF carrying the injury. Another reason he was anonymous in that game. FFS.
McCaw played most of the 2011 RWC with a broken foot. Are you at least prepared to concede that the All Blacks medical staff and team doctor were in a better position to assess his fitness for that game than you or I?
Read doesn't come close to the GOAT. I also thought the Goat kept his injury a secret from the cartel.

I will concede that the ABs medics and doc were in a better position than me to assess his fitness. Will you concede that maybe they f**ked up? Because Read certainly didn´t play like we know he can in that SF.
Part of the problem was that we had so few backrowers in the squad, because Hansen/Foster were determined to make room for Jordie Barrett and take additional outside backs. If Read had been ruled out for the SF our backrow would have looked incredibly makeshift. This might have put additional pressure on the team medic to pass him fit. I also think the myth of McCaw's foot is a dangerous one because it has put pressure on senior AB's to play through injury.
Yet they let a fit Sam Cane ride the pine. Ardie could have played 8, especially if they were determined to fit big Barratt into the starting team.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by Wilderbeast »

Ali's Choice wrote:
obelixtim wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
obelixtim wrote:Read now owning up to tearing a calf muscle in the QF, and playing the SF carrying the injury. Another reason he was anonymous in that game. FFS.
McCaw played most of the 2011 RWC with a broken foot. Are you at least prepared to concede that the All Blacks medical staff and team doctor were in a better position to assess his fitness for that game than you or I?
Read doesn't come close to the GOAT. I also thought the Goat kept his injury a secret from the cartel.

I will concede that the ABs medics and doc were in a better position than me to assess his fitness. Will you concede that maybe they f**ked up? Because Read certainly didn´t play like we know he can in that SF.
Part of the problem was that we had so few backrowers in the squad, because Hansen/Foster were determined to make room for Jordie Barrett and take additional outside backs. If Read had been ruled out for the SF our backrow would have looked incredibly makeshift. This might have put additional pressure on the team medic to pass him fit. I also think the myth of McCaw's foot is a dangerous one because it has put pressure on senior AB's to play through injury.
This is a very good point, and often overlooked.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by naki »

Read also stated he was unaffected by the injury during the actual game. Thinks it may have adversely effected the warm up
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by Kahu »

mr bungle wrote:
It’s time the importance of a one off tournament where draw plays a bigger hand than being the best team is downplayed.
The WC is the pinnacle of rugby. Everyone in the world worthy of being there is there. The pool stage gives everyone a chance to get some form under their belt and allows a single hiccup. The elimination stage ensures the best team survives. Even if we had played Japan instead of Ireland we still would most likely have lost to England.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by Kahu »

It's pretty obvious that Read's injury is why we forgot to compete at lineout time, why our pack was severely beaten, why Jordie made a ridiculous offload, why Whitelock gave away a stupid penalty.

Will Read be remembered as the 2nd worst AB captain of all time behind Randell?
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by obelixtim »

naki wrote:Read also stated he was unaffected by the injury during the actual game. Thinks it may have adversely effected the warm up
As I said, he wasn't playing the way he can. For whatever reason.

He would say that anyway. Because admitting it affected him would open him up to huge criticism. As well as the selectors. He might have said that to cover Shags (and Fozzies) arse.
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Re: All Blacks 2019 Year in Review

Post by Salient »

CrazyIslander wrote:The worst thing about this year was the lack of anger at the ABs losing in the semi. The passion just not there amongst the NZ public.
To be honest simply too much rugby each year and there was always the feeling we didn't have the setup to go all the way.

Foster :shock: Hopefully he takes the current board down with him as the wheels come completely off the AB wagon in 2020.
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