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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:27 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/why-do-some-covid-19-patients-infect-many-others-whereas-most-don-t-spread-virus-all

Very interesting. Sorry if RR.



Definitely interesting. Don't think it's been posted at all. A game like football could potentially be quite safe, as long as everyone is sensible with regards to changing rooms etc.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:27 pm 
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dpedin wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Edinburgh01 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Quote:
Ouch - await obtuse prevarication from Bimbo et al now. Change of topic or name calling? Place all bets now please!

We couldn’t overturn privacy laws for Scottish Ministers. Asked and answered. You seem to have missed that reply.

That a Nat posted that detail and still missed the “legal” aspect says everything about the Nats and the Law.

It has nothing to do with data protection law, but everything with how the DHSC chose to draw up its data policies.

The DHSC drew up data policies so narrowly that, though the Scottish Govt was told how tests were carried out in the sites set up by the DHSC in Scotland for testing NHS staff and key workers (remind how that is possible given your insistence that all testing is devolved), they prevented the Scottish Govt being told how many of its key workers had tested positive.

Those policies have now been changed and that information is now coming through.

Edit
I should point out that I believe this also applied to England, stats were all at the UK level.



I’ve not said “all” testing is devolved , but I’m right that there was nothing stopping the Scots doing there own testing right from the start. Health is a devolved matter.


Someone take his spade away!

Didn't the outsourced testing fcuk up and lose / misplace a load of results. Superb it was. Congrats all around to deloittes.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -hole.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... eople.html

Perhaps sturgeon decided not to promise stuff that she couldn't guarantee at that time?

The mail shot testing is interesting as when ever they send a load out the proportion of positive tests decreases indicating that it is likely that people aren't taking the swab correctly.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:39 pm 
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We are Global Britain.

:|






:lol:


Ffs.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:44 pm 
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Petej wrote:
dpedin wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Edinburgh01 wrote:
It has nothing to do with data protection law, but everything with how the DHSC chose to draw up its data policies.

The DHSC drew up data policies so narrowly that, though the Scottish Govt was told how tests were carried out in the sites set up by the DHSC in Scotland for testing NHS staff and key workers (remind how that is possible given your insistence that all testing is devolved), they prevented the Scottish Govt being told how many of its key workers had tested positive.

Those policies have now been changed and that information is now coming through.

Edit
I should point out that I believe this also applied to England, stats were all at the UK level.



I’ve not said “all” testing is devolved , but I’m right that there was nothing stopping the Scots doing there own testing right from the start. Health is a devolved matter.


Someone take his spade away!

Didn't the outsourced testing fcuk up and lose / misplace a load of results. Superb it was. Congrats all around to deloittes.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -hole.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... eople.html

Perhaps sturgeon decided not to promise stuff that she couldn't guarantee at that time?

The mail shot testing is interesting as when ever they send a load out the proportion of positive tests decreases indicating that it is likely that people aren't taking the swab correctly.



Yes. That's of course the indication.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:41 pm 
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Quote:
Didn't the outsourced testing fcuk up and lose / misplace a load of results. Superb it was. Congrats all around to deloittes.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -hole.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... eople.html

Perhaps sturgeon decided not to promise stuff that she couldn't guarantee at that time?

The mail shot testing is interesting as when ever they send a load out the proportion of positive tests decreases indicating that it is likely that people aren't taking the swab correctly.



A small amount got lost. This has nothing to do with Scotland not having there own tests though.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:47 pm 
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message #2527204 wrote:
not_english wrote:
Speaking as an IT person, I would love to hear what the issues they are having with the app being trialled on the Isle of Wight are that are stopping them from rolling it out further at the moment.


I think they've ordered another one using the apple/android api. But also, the number of daily positives on 1 st June should be low enough for the system to handle. You don't want to be in a position where you're quarantining 15% of the country just as you're lifting restrictions.
I seem to remember in the last horizon programme that 10% will ignore any self isolation order they're given, and this measure ( test and trace) will only lower the reproduction rate by 0.1? Anyone confirm that?



They're investigating whether the existing app framework could support swapping out their apps for the Google framework- primarily because of privacy/legal concerns. At the end of the day the actual tracing/correlation piece us pretty straightforward, whether on the phone or centralised, so tge end your experience would be effectively the same.

However, there's increasing doubts globally that Bluetooth is an accurate enough technology for this, and whether you can sustain a 60%+ install and running population for any serious length of time. Singapore has only managed to get 20% takeup. Iceland is leading the world at 39%. And Bluetooth works through walks - right now I could attempt to pair to my neighbours mobile phone, through 2 walls and a minimum of 5m away.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:51 pm 
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Saint wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
not_english wrote:
Speaking as an IT person, I would love to hear what the issues they are having with the app being trialled on the Isle of Wight are that are stopping them from rolling it out further at the moment.


I think they've ordered another one using the apple/android api. But also, the number of daily positives on 1 st June should be low enough for the system to handle. You don't want to be in a position where you're quarantining 15% of the country just as you're lifting restrictions.
I seem to remember in the last horizon programme that 10% will ignore any self isolation order they're given, and this measure ( test and trace) will only lower the reproduction rate by 0.1? Anyone confirm that?



They're investigating whether the existing app framework could support swapping out their apps for the Google framework- primarily because of privacy/legal concerns. At the end of the day the actual tracing/correlation piece us pretty straightforward, whether on the phone or centralised, so tge end your experience would be effectively the same.

However, there's increasing doubts globally that Bluetooth is an accurate enough technology for this, and whether you can sustain a 60%+ install and running population for any serious length of time. Singapore has only managed to get 20% takeup. Iceland is leading the world at 39%. And Bluetooth works through walks - right now I could attempt to pair to my neighbours mobile phone, through 2 walls and a minimum of 5m away.


I think bluetooth can measure strength of signal, so it's not just yes/no.

Centralised would allow the app to be updated to help resolve such issues, decentralised would be a lot harder to find issues to resolve them I imagine.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:55 pm 
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Trump gives a 3 minute press conference (was he struggling for breath?) saying that the churches etc "must be opened by this weekend" or else. Then he just walks out.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:58 pm 
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More like struggling for brains I fear.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:59 pm 
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Enzedder wrote:
Trump gives a 3 minute press conference (was he struggling for breath?) saying that the churches etc "must be opened by this weekend" or else. Then he just walks out.


I’m looking forward to hearing the logic behind this latest diktat.

Apart from ‘it’ll play well with the religious right’.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:00 pm 
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Druid wrote:
More like struggling for brains I fear.


That struggle was lost decades ago.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:06 pm 
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Enzedder wrote:
Druid wrote:
More like struggling for brains I fear.


That struggle was lost decades ago.


Quite true. maybe he is correct that his country does need more prayer not less.

He really is some item.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:09 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Saint wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
not_english wrote:
Speaking as an IT person, I would love to hear what the issues they are having with the app being trialled on the Isle of Wight are that are stopping them from rolling it out further at the moment.


I think they've ordered another one using the apple/android api. But also, the number of daily positives on 1 st June should be low enough for the system to handle. You don't want to be in a position where you're quarantining 15% of the country just as you're lifting restrictions.
I seem to remember in the last horizon programme that 10% will ignore any self isolation order they're given, and this measure ( test and trace) will only lower the reproduction rate by 0.1? Anyone confirm that?



They're investigating whether the existing app framework could support swapping out their apps for the Google framework- primarily because of privacy/legal concerns. At the end of the day the actual tracing/correlation piece us pretty straightforward, whether on the phone or centralised, so tge end your experience would be effectively the same.

However, there's increasing doubts globally that Bluetooth is an accurate enough technology for this, and whether you can sustain a 60%+ install and running population for any serious length of time. Singapore has only managed to get 20% takeup. Iceland is leading the world at 39%. And Bluetooth works through walks - right now I could attempt to pair to my neighbours mobile phone, through 2 walls and a minimum of 5m away.


I think bluetooth can measure strength of signal, so it's not just yes/no.

Centralised would allow the app to be updated to help resolve such issues, decentralised would be a lot harder to find issues to resolve them I imagine.


Yeah you can measure strength, but that just tells you how strong the signal you can see is. For that to be useful information you need to know how strong it was at the transmitter, and whether it's passed through walls or other materials The range of signal strengths you're going to need will be very wide, that's fine if they can get a quick and easy test, less so if tests take 2-3 days to turn around

Agree on the ability to tune the centralised model a bit, and I do see the benefits in terms of giving a high level "gross" view of potential hotspots, but the core functionality of the app is effectively identical either way


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:18 pm 
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Saint wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Saint wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
not_english wrote:
Speaking as an IT person, I would love to hear what the issues they are having with the app being trialled on the Isle of Wight are that are stopping them from rolling it out further at the moment.


I think they've ordered another one using the apple/android api. But also, the number of daily positives on 1 st June should be low enough for the system to handle. You don't want to be in a position where you're quarantining 15% of the country just as you're lifting restrictions.
I seem to remember in the last horizon programme that 10% will ignore any self isolation order they're given, and this measure ( test and trace) will only lower the reproduction rate by 0.1? Anyone confirm that?



They're investigating whether the existing app framework could support swapping out their apps for the Google framework- primarily because of privacy/legal concerns. At the end of the day the actual tracing/correlation piece us pretty straightforward, whether on the phone or centralised, so tge end your experience would be effectively the same.

However, there's increasing doubts globally that Bluetooth is an accurate enough technology for this, and whether you can sustain a 60%+ install and running population for any serious length of time. Singapore has only managed to get 20% takeup. Iceland is leading the world at 39%. And Bluetooth works through walks - right now I could attempt to pair to my neighbours mobile phone, through 2 walls and a minimum of 5m away.


I think bluetooth can measure strength of signal, so it's not just yes/no.

Centralised would allow the app to be updated to help resolve such issues, decentralised would be a lot harder to find issues to resolve them I imagine.


Yeah you can measure strength, but that just tells you how strong the signal you can see is. For that to be useful information you need to know how strong it was at the transmitter, and whether it's passed through walls or other materials The range of signal strengths you're going to need will be very wide, that's fine if they can get a quick and easy test, less so if tests take 2-3 days to turn around

Agree on the ability to tune the centralised model a bit, and I do see the benefits in terms of giving a high level "gross" view of potential hotspots, but the core functionality of the app is effectively identical either way


It's only going to be the strongest signals you need though. Whilst it can pass through walls, I'd imagine it takes a fair whack out of it. It can travel something like 50m normally (more I think). So unless you're getting a very strong signal, then clearly there's either a barrier, or a good amount of distance between the two phones, and therefore not an issue in terms of transmission. The centralised model will also allow adjustment for exactly this.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:20 pm 
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henry wrote:
Priti Patel emits all the warmth, reassurance and competence of a big red brick.

:lol: Quite :(

Found this quite amusing... https://twitter.com/meggiefoster/status ... 20385?s=21


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:50 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Saint wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Saint wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:

I think they've ordered another one using the apple/android api. But also, the number of daily positives on 1 st June should be low enough for the system to handle. You don't want to be in a position where you're quarantining 15% of the country just as you're lifting restrictions.
I seem to remember in the last horizon programme that 10% will ignore any self isolation order they're given, and this measure ( test and trace) will only lower the reproduction rate by 0.1? Anyone confirm that?



They're investigating whether the existing app framework could support swapping out their apps for the Google framework- primarily because of privacy/legal concerns. At the end of the day the actual tracing/correlation piece us pretty straightforward, whether on the phone or centralised, so tge end your experience would be effectively the same.

However, there's increasing doubts globally that Bluetooth is an accurate enough technology for this, and whether you can sustain a 60%+ install and running population for any serious length of time. Singapore has only managed to get 20% takeup. Iceland is leading the world at 39%. And Bluetooth works through walks - right now I could attempt to pair to my neighbours mobile phone, through 2 walls and a minimum of 5m away.


I think bluetooth can measure strength of signal, so it's not just yes/no.

Centralised would allow the app to be updated to help resolve such issues, decentralised would be a lot harder to find issues to resolve them I imagine.


Yeah you can measure strength, but that just tells you how strong the signal you can see is. For that to be useful information you need to know how strong it was at the transmitter, and whether it's passed through walls or other materials The range of signal strengths you're going to need will be very wide, that's fine if they can get a quick and easy test, less so if tests take 2-3 days to turn around

Agree on the ability to tune the centralised model a bit, and I do see the benefits in terms of giving a high level "gross" view of potential hotspots, but the core functionality of the app is effectively identical either way


It's only going to be the strongest signals you need though. Whilst it can pass through walls, I'd imagine it takes a fair whack out of it. It can travel something like 50m normally (more I think). So unless you're getting a very strong signal, then clearly there's either a barrier, or a good amount of distance between the two phones, and therefore not an issue in terms of transmission. The centralised model will also allow adjustment for exactly this.


It can theoretically travel 100m if you provide enough power with the right class radio - the standard as laid out actually runs from half a metre at tge lower end. But different phones use different radios with wildly different power outputs. I've seen some class 2 Bluetooth radios (what you will usually see in mobile phones) barely manage 2 metres - so they could look like being a long way away - even though you would expect a class 2 device to manage 5 metres.

The ranges you need to support are very wude and because they're device and radio specific that part can't be "tuned"


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:54 pm 
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Saint wrote:
It can theoretically travel 100m if you provide enough power with the right class radio - the standard as laid out actually runs from half a metre at tge lower end. But different phones use different radios with wildly different power outputs. I've seen some class 2 Bluetooth radios (what you will usually see in mobile phones) barely manage 2 metres - so they could look like being a long way away - even though you would expect a class 2 device to manage 5 metres.

The ranges you need to support are very wude and because they're device and radio specific that part can't be "tuned"


Presumably the app can detect which type of phone it is on, and act accordingly?


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:57 pm 
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Insane_Homer wrote:
UK breaking news, Torygraph no less.

Quote:
Two samples taken from the same patient are being recorded as two separate tests in the Government's official figures


They are. One nose, one mouth?


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:02 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Saint wrote:
It can theoretically travel 100m if you provide enough power with the right class radio - the standard as laid out actually runs from half a metre at tge lower end. But different phones use different radios with wildly different power outputs. I've seen some class 2 Bluetooth radios (what you will usually see in mobile phones) barely manage 2 metres - so they could look like being a long way away - even though you would expect a class 2 device to manage 5 metres.

The ranges you need to support are very wude and because they're device and radio specific that part can't be "tuned"


Presumably the app can detect which type of phone it is on, and act accordingly?


But you need the app to know what the other device is for tgat to be yseful. The power isn't adjustable on the device- manufacturers strip out that functionality


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:02 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Insane_Homer wrote:
UK breaking news, Torygraph no less.

Quote:
Two samples taken from the same patient are being recorded as two separate tests in the Government's official figures


They are. One nose, one mouth?


Doubt it. You use the same stick.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:05 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Insane_Homer wrote:
UK breaking news, Torygraph no less.

Quote:
Two samples taken from the same patient are being recorded as two separate tests in the Government's official figures


They are. One nose, one mouth?


Doubt it. You use the same stick.


Do they test both ends?

(wrong end of the stick etc)


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:07 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Raggs wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Insane_Homer wrote:
UK breaking news, Torygraph no less.

Quote:
Two samples taken from the same patient are being recorded as two separate tests in the Government's official figures


They are. One nose, one mouth?


Doubt it. You use the same stick.


Do they test both ends?

(wrong end of the stick etc)


Same end. Throat first, then bogeys.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:27 pm 
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Raggs wrote:



Same end. Throat first, then bogeys.



:Vom:

Quote:
The test involves a swab from the mouth and nose as well as a sample of saliva.


This is what makes it sound like x2 tests.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:44 pm 
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Cummings broke Lockdown whilst he had Covid symptoms !!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/22/dominic-cummings-durham-trip-coronavirus-lockdown

Others had to resign for less serious breaches.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:46 pm 
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dargotronV.1 wrote:
henry wrote:
Priti Patel emits all the warmth, reassurance and competence of a big red brick.

:lol: Quite :(

Found this quite amusing... https://twitter.com/meggiefoster/status ... 20385?s=21


Will be great craic when Maggie Thatcher II gets the top job


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:51 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
Cummings broke Lockdown whilst he had Covid symptoms !!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/22/dominic-cummings-durham-trip-coronavirus-lockdown

Others had to resign for less serious breaches.


To stay with his elderly parents if reports are to be believed.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:52 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
dargotronV.1 wrote:
henry wrote:
Priti Patel emits all the warmth, reassurance and competence of a big red brick.

:lol: Quite :(

Found this quite amusing... https://twitter.com/meggiefoster/status ... 20385?s=21


Will be great craic when Maggie Thatcher II gets the top job


Don't even joke about that pleeeaaassse.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 9:33 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
dargotronV.1 wrote:
henry wrote:
Priti Patel emits all the warmth, reassurance and competence of a big red brick.

:lol: Quite :(

Found this quite amusing... https://twitter.com/meggiefoster/status ... 20385?s=21


Will be great craic when Maggie Thatcher II gets the top job


She’ll have to enter No. 10 sideways.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:04 pm 
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Has this been covered 20 times yet
https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... tudy-finds


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:15 pm 
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Monkey Magic wrote:

Don't tell trump though.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:19 pm 
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henry wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
dargotronV.1 wrote:
henry wrote:
Priti Patel emits all the warmth, reassurance and competence of a big red brick.

:lol: Quite :(

Found this quite amusing... https://twitter.com/meggiefoster/status ... 20385?s=21


Will be great craic when Maggie Thatcher II gets the top job


She’ll have to enter No. 10 sideways.



Racist


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:24 pm 
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Monkey Magic wrote:


It was certainly pointed out there was a link a few weeks ago.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:27 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Monkey Magic wrote:


It was certainly pointed out there was a link a few weeks ago.


The sad thing is 'should only be used in trial settings' is something you would expect to be the default position, not something you have to convince people is a legitimate stance


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:28 pm 
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Just caught an update, a while ago people were wondering why Eastern Europe wasn't seemingly beeing affected as badly as the west. It looks like currently The Ukraine is struggling with an overwhelmed healthcare system:

https://time.com/5838254/ukraine-health ... ronavirus/

https://www.unian.info/society/covid-19 ... 07164.html

Over 100,000 cases in Africa now:


Oh and Dominique Cummings caught at his parents house when he should have been locked down. Seriously what a dick.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:29 pm 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Cummings broke Lockdown whilst he had Covid symptoms !!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/22/dominic-cummings-durham-trip-coronavirus-lockdown

Others had to resign for less serious breaches.


To stay with his elderly parents if reports are to be believed.


He knows the rules, no family visits, no second homes and no excuses.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:31 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
Cummings broke Lockdown whilst he had Covid symptoms !!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/22/dominic-cummings-durham-trip-coronavirus-lockdown

Others had to resign for less serious breaches.


I'm not sure visiting your 2nd home is less serious than your parents home. I'd argue bonking your married sex partner is the worst of the high profile breaches.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:40 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Cummings broke Lockdown whilst he had Covid symptoms !!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/22/dominic-cummings-durham-trip-coronavirus-lockdown

Others had to resign for less serious breaches.


I'm not sure visiting your 2nd home is less serious than your parents home. I'd argue bonking your married sex partner is the worst of the high profile breaches.


Well he was immune so it was actually harmless!


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:48 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Cummings broke Lockdown whilst he had Covid symptoms !!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/22/dominic-cummings-durham-trip-coronavirus-lockdown

Others had to resign for less serious breaches.


To stay with his elderly parents if reports are to be believed.


He made the rules, no family visits, no second homes and no excuses.

ftfy


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 12:08 am 
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Any decent summaries of how the virus is affecting countries around the globe?


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 1:14 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Cummings broke Lockdown whilst he had Covid symptoms !!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/22/dominic-cummings-durham-trip-coronavirus-lockdown

Others had to resign for less serious breaches.


I'm not sure visiting your 2nd home is less serious than your parents home. I'd argue bonking your married sex partner is the worst of the high profile breaches.


Breaking isolation, when you actually have Covid symptoms, would seem more serious - especially if you then visit some older folk.


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