Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

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pjm1
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by pjm1 »

Canadian_Rugger wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:32 am The issue with lockdowns is once the disease becomes endemic, lockdowns are no longer effective as all they do is delay some deaths that will inevitably occur as soon as the vulnerable are reintroduced to the disease which has now achieved widespread circulation.

Certain isolated areas of the World will be able to keep the disease from becoming endemic (most of them are islands who can use their geographic advantage to tightly control their borders) but they will have to continue to fight a rear-guard action for a very long time.

All of this is playing out as we speak and can be seen in all the trend lines. The COVID death rate per day has remained much the same since the pandemic began but the disease continues to spread exponentially to ever greater numbers of people.

Every Country where the disease is now Endemic is going to have a death rate that is remarkably similar, regardless of how many lockdowns and Government interventions are carried out.

All this to say, Governments aren't going to micromanage their way out of the pandemic but they will certainly try.
Nah, that's simply not the case.

If ICUs are swamped then the ability to sustain people with acute conditions (Covid and other) will be impaired. So all this action is about trying to flatten the incidence curve so that health systems can cope better. For every person who needs ICU and cannot get an ICU bed, it's fair to assume the death toll will increase by 1, rather than the (say) 0.25-0.5 that would likely be the case if an ICU bed is available.

The impact on treatment of other diseases, accidents and mental health should also not be discounted.

So to say all death rates will be similar is a gross over-simplification and assumes all the above effects aren't relevant.
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Botha Boy
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by Botha Boy »

A good discussion of the available data on the existing Coronavirus crisis and particularly in the context of the UK Lockdown this week ...

If you can argue with these points, please post the data as we are all being locked down in Europe on minimal data that you can audit through ... :thumbup:

https://youtu.be/_eJuj0rx-48
bimboman
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:13 am
SaintK wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:17 pm So England into Tier 4 lockdown for 4 weeks from Thursday. According to leaks from No10
I’ve been told that all of England is into tier four. It will mean that all pubs and restaurants have to close. All shops will close apart from non-essential retail, but as I understand it supermarkets will still be able to sell nonessential goods. There will be no mixing inside homes. In terms of what can continue: schools and universities and colleges all will remain open. Courts will remain open and parliament will remain open.

The idea would be that while we all go into tier 4 for a period of a few weeks. Then we come out of it back into other [existing] tiering system. So different parts of the country will be released from this tier 4 at different periods depending on where they are with the virus.
As schools are open (as they are across Europe) some experts believe the lockdown will take 3 times as long.

Did any of these experts suggest how we’d afford it?
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

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Print money.
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message #2527204
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by message #2527204 »

Botha Boy wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:21 pm A good discussion of the available data on the existing Coronavirus crisis and particularly in the context of the UK Lockdown this week ...

If you can argue with these points, please post the data as we are all being locked down in Europe on minimal data that you can audit through ... :thumbup:

https://youtu.be/_eJuj0rx-48
It's not a case of simple data. though bvoiusly if you have an axe to grind it works,. Their arguments are all over the place, first stating no 2nd wave, just regional first waves, then ignoring that lockdown has an effect on these regional 1st waves.
Also equating the UK with SA and saying there will be a million infant deaths due to lockdown? Ignoring the fact that 3 million people arrive in the UK each week outside lockdown. Ignoring the public reaction to hundreds dying each week. Ignoring the fact that absolutely no-one was turned away from hospital with chest pains at all. etc
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eldanielfire
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by eldanielfire »

bimboman wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:45 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:13 am
SaintK wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:17 pm So England into Tier 4 lockdown for 4 weeks from Thursday. According to leaks from No10
I’ve been told that all of England is into tier four. It will mean that all pubs and restaurants have to close. All shops will close apart from non-essential retail, but as I understand it supermarkets will still be able to sell nonessential goods. There will be no mixing inside homes. In terms of what can continue: schools and universities and colleges all will remain open. Courts will remain open and parliament will remain open.

The idea would be that while we all go into tier 4 for a period of a few weeks. Then we come out of it back into other [existing] tiering system. So different parts of the country will be released from this tier 4 at different periods depending on where they are with the virus.
As schools are open (as they are across Europe) some experts believe the lockdown will take 3 times as long.

Did any of these experts suggest how we’d afford it?
We'll most western european countries can afford the debt if that is what you mean.
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Botha Boy
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by Botha Boy »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:41 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:45 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:13 am
SaintK wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:17 pm So England into Tier 4 lockdown for 4 weeks from Thursday. According to leaks from No10
I’ve been told that all of England is into tier four. It will mean that all pubs and restaurants have to close. All shops will close apart from non-essential retail, but as I understand it supermarkets will still be able to sell nonessential goods. There will be no mixing inside homes. In terms of what can continue: schools and universities and colleges all will remain open. Courts will remain open and parliament will remain open.

The idea would be that while we all go into tier 4 for a period of a few weeks. Then we come out of it back into other [existing] tiering system. So different parts of the country will be released from this tier 4 at different periods depending on where they are with the virus.
As schools are open (as they are across Europe) some experts believe the lockdown will take 3 times as long.

Did any of these experts suggest how we’d afford it?
We'll most western european countries can afford the debt if that is what you mean.
/Statski Mode ...

Show your workings ...

How much debt are you saying we can afford and why ?

What is your Cost/Benefit Analysis ?

Your time starts now ... :thumbup:
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Botha Boy
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by Botha Boy »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:41 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:45 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:13 am
SaintK wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:17 pm So England into Tier 4 lockdown for 4 weeks from Thursday. According to leaks from No10
I’ve been told that all of England is into tier four. It will mean that all pubs and restaurants have to close. All shops will close apart from non-essential retail, but as I understand it supermarkets will still be able to sell nonessential goods. There will be no mixing inside homes. In terms of what can continue: schools and universities and colleges all will remain open. Courts will remain open and parliament will remain open.

The idea would be that while we all go into tier 4 for a period of a few weeks. Then we come out of it back into other [existing] tiering system. So different parts of the country will be released from this tier 4 at different periods depending on where they are with the virus.
As schools are open (as they are across Europe) some experts believe the lockdown will take 3 times as long.

Did any of these experts suggest how we’d afford it?
We'll most western european countries can afford the debt if that is what you mean.
/Statski Mode ...

Show your workings ...

How much debt are you saying we can afford and why ?

What is your Cost/Benefit Analysis ? Pick a country you are familiar with.

Your time starts now ... :thumbup:
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

Botha Boy wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:42 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:41 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:45 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:13 am
SaintK wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:17 pm So England into Tier 4 lockdown for 4 weeks from Thursday. According to leaks from No10
As schools are open (as they are across Europe) some experts believe the lockdown will take 3 times as long.

Did any of these experts suggest how we’d afford it?
We'll most western european countries can afford the debt if that is what you mean.
/Statski Mode ...

Show your workings ...

How much debt are you saying we can afford and why ?

What is your Cost/Benefit Analysis ?

Your time starts now ... :thumbup:


No point Eldan absolutely believe debt doesn’t matter. There’s an terrible reckoning coming at some point.
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Botha Boy
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by Botha Boy »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:46 pm
Botha Boy wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:42 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:41 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:45 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:13 am

As schools are open (as they are across Europe) some experts believe the lockdown will take 3 times as long.

Did any of these experts suggest how we’d afford it?
We'll most western european countries can afford the debt if that is what you mean.
/Statski Mode ...

Show your workings ...

How much debt are you saying we can afford and why ?

What is your Cost/Benefit Analysis ?

Your time starts now ... :thumbup:


No point Eldan absolutely believe debt doesn’t matter. There’s an terrible reckoning coming at some point.
A slightly more quantitative approach is necessary when discussing the national debt ... but genuinely we need a real discussion on this.

I think you could convince a lot of people to spend a lot/be taxed more for healthcare, but we need a discussion on the benefit of the investment.

But open to hear measured consideration on the topic.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by eldanielfire »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:46 pm

No point Eldan absolutely believe debt doesn’t matter. There’s an terrible reckoning coming at some point.
That's total bulshit you liar. The UK has been in relatively more debt than before, it is a stable economy and the chancellor doesn't appear to have borrowing issues right now.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by piquant »

Botha Boy wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:45 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:41 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:45 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:13 am
SaintK wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:17 pm So England into Tier 4 lockdown for 4 weeks from Thursday. According to leaks from No10
As schools are open (as they are across Europe) some experts believe the lockdown will take 3 times as long.

Did any of these experts suggest how we’d afford it?
We'll most western european countries can afford the debt if that is what you mean.
/Statski Mode ...

Show your workings ...

How much debt are you saying we can afford and why ?

What is your Cost/Benefit Analysis ? Pick a country you are familiar with.

Your time starts now ... :thumbup:

Or flipped, how much debt are you saying is too much and can't be afforded?

I'd class myself as fiscally conservative, and yet not only have governments tended to carry large debts in my lifetime, tended to carry growing debt, and have gone through the credit crunch a little over 10 years ago and now the start of the pandemic both exploring the debt, they've done so with ease.

I still don't like the lack of responsibility, the idea you can just leave your shit for someone else to clean up, and I remain concerned there will come a point where it becomes a serious problem, but when would that be because right now it looks like there's a lot of flex left in the system?

Perhaps with everyone borrowing there's nowhere for money to move without that being a thing wherever the money is, maybe it'll come down to demographics and a willingness to encourage migration, but realistically nobody seems to know, whether you're asking Nobel prize winning economists or random people on the internet.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by eldanielfire »

piquant wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:52 am

Or flipped, how much debt are you saying is too much and can't be afforded?
I'd like to see this as well. I mean it's clear the Government is able to borrow hundreds of millions with good reason. It's clear the governments are borrowing this money now. So why do I have to show a limit to a statement that is what is actually happening. It's a fact the government borrowing and debt has been higher in the past as well.

The fact is government borrowing is a confidence thing as much as anything. The numbers aren't infinite and no one has remotely claimed they are, but it's a weighing of what the money is used for, how confident is the business sector in the country as a place to do business, stable currency in the long term etc.



I'd class myself as fiscally conservative, and yet not only have governments tended to carry large debts in my lifetime, tended to carry growing debt, and have gone through the credit crunch a little over 10 years ago and now the start of the pandemic both exploring the debt, they've done so with ease.
I think last century no government ever decreased borrowing.
I still don't like the lack of responsibility, the idea you can just leave your shit for someone else to clean up, and I remain concerned there will come a point where it becomes a serious problem, but when would that be because right now it looks like there's a lot of flex left in the system?

Perhaps with everyone borrowing there's nowhere for money to move without that being a thing wherever the money is, maybe it'll come down to demographics and a willingness to encourage migration, but realistically nobody seems to know, whether you're asking Nobel prize winning economists or random people on the internet.
I agree witht hat. Which is why I support borrowing for protecting the economy and investing in the economy and people in the economy. Largely because this benefits the future and those in the future who will cover the costs. If borrowing for investment means more tax returns in future then it's a logical idea.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by piquant »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:59 pm
piquant wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:52 am

Or flipped, how much debt are you saying is too much and can't be afforded?
I'd like to see this as well.
There is an awful lot of currently borrowing isn't close to being for investment purposes, it's just to meeting ongoing costs, and growing ongoing costs

If you actually want to read a reasonable study on this then this is a pretty good study, albeit amusing because the writer doesn't much like debt and yet can't find easy problems with it they seemingly want to be able to. Worth noting the research is mainly based on a stable country that has been able to pay/service/refinance its debt

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/ ... mies-45794

It's 50 odd pages, but some of that's graphs, and I think it's pretty easy to follow in the main
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by CM11 »

The US added 13k to their critical (ICU, generally) list yesterday. Wtf?

They now have 32k receiving critical care and their deaths are increasing. Not good.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:55 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:46 pm

No point Eldan absolutely believe debt doesn’t matter. There’s an terrible reckoning coming at some point.
That's total bulshit you liar. The UK has been in relatively more debt than before, it is a stable economy and the chancellor doesn't appear to have borrowing issues right now.


As I said you don’t believe that debt matters.


As a clue, it took the UK nearly 20 years to recover the last time we were this much in debt. This will be much worse. By all means accept MMT and argue for it, but stop arguing it’s ok. It,isn’t,
I'd like to see this as well. I mean it's clear the Government is able to borrow hundreds of millions with good reason. It's clear the governments are borrowing this money now. So why do I have to show a limit to a statement that is what is actually happening. It's a fact the government borrowing and debt has been higher in the past as well.

And this is the problem “able to borrow hundreds of millions” ..... so f ucking what, currently we are borrowing 20 hundred million every day. Every day. The scale isn’t repeated at anytime in history.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by 6.Jones »

Canadian_Rugger wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:32 am The issue with lockdowns is once the disease becomes endemic, lockdowns are no longer effective as all they do is delay some deaths that will inevitably occur as soon as the vulnerable are reintroduced to the disease which has now achieved widespread circulation.

Certain isolated areas of the World will be able to keep the disease from becoming endemic (most of them are islands who can use their geographic advantage to tightly control their borders) but they will have to continue to fight a rear-guard action for a very long time.

All of this is playing out as we speak and can be seen in all the trend lines. The COVID death rate per day has remained much the same since the pandemic began but the disease continues to spread exponentially to ever greater numbers of people.

Every Country where the disease is now Endemic is going to have a death rate that is remarkably similar, regardless of how many lockdowns and Government interventions are carried out.

All this to say, Governments aren't going to micromanage their way out of the pandemic but they will certainly try.
Delaying deaths is the point. This prevents [or tries to prevent] health systems being overwhelmed, and people dying of other causes, or because they can't be treated. The number of COVID deaths might end up the same, but the potential death toll from all causes could be much larger.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by 6.Jones »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:57 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:55 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:46 pm

No point Eldan absolutely believe debt doesn’t matter. There’s an terrible reckoning coming at some point.
That's total bulshit you liar. The UK has been in relatively more debt than before, it is a stable economy and the chancellor doesn't appear to have borrowing issues right now.


As I said you don’t believe that debt matters.


As a clue, it took the UK nearly 20 years to recover the last time we were this much in debt. This will be much worse. By all means accept MMT and argue for it, but stop arguing it’s ok. It,isn’t,
I'd like to see this as well. I mean it's clear the Government is able to borrow hundreds of millions with good reason. It's clear the governments are borrowing this money now. So why do I have to show a limit to a statement that is what is actually happening. It's a fact the government borrowing and debt has been higher in the past as well.

And this is the problem “able to borrow hundreds of millions” ..... so f ucking what, currently we are borrowing 20 hundred million every day. Every day. The scale isn’t repeated at anytime in history.
Good time to try MMT then.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

6.Jones wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:06 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:57 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:55 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:46 pm

No point Eldan absolutely believe debt doesn’t matter. There’s an terrible reckoning coming at some point.
That's total bulshit you liar. The UK has been in relatively more debt than before, it is a stable economy and the chancellor doesn't appear to have borrowing issues right now.


As I said you don’t believe that debt matters.


As a clue, it took the UK nearly 20 years to recover the last time we were this much in debt. This will be much worse. By all means accept MMT and argue for it, but stop arguing it’s ok. It,isn’t,
I'd like to see this as well. I mean it's clear the Government is able to borrow hundreds of millions with good reason. It's clear the governments are borrowing this money now. So why do I have to show a limit to a statement that is what is actually happening. It's a fact the government borrowing and debt has been higher in the past as well.

And this is the problem “able to borrow hundreds of millions” ..... so f ucking what, currently we are borrowing 20 hundred million every day. Every day. The scale isn’t repeated at anytime in history.
Good time to try MMT then.

The state can feed me, educate me , dictate where I live, etc etc.

It’s a revolting idea.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

6.Jones wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:04 pm
Canadian_Rugger wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:32 am The issue with lockdowns is once the disease becomes endemic, lockdowns are no longer effective as all they do is delay some deaths that will inevitably occur as soon as the vulnerable are reintroduced to the disease which has now achieved widespread circulation.

Certain isolated areas of the World will be able to keep the disease from becoming endemic (most of them are islands who can use their geographic advantage to tightly control their borders) but they will have to continue to fight a rear-guard action for a very long time.

All of this is playing out as we speak and can be seen in all the trend lines. The COVID death rate per day has remained much the same since the pandemic began but the disease continues to spread exponentially to ever greater numbers of people.

Every Country where the disease is now Endemic is going to have a death rate that is remarkably similar, regardless of how many lockdowns and Government interventions are carried out.

All this to say, Governments aren't going to micromanage their way out of the pandemic but they will certainly try.
Delaying deaths is the point. This prevents [or tries to prevent] health systems being overwhelmed, and people dying of other causes, or because they can't be treated. The number of COVID deaths might end up the same, but the potential death toll from all causes could be much larger.
It’s estimated that the UK policy will now cause the early demise of more people than covid has killed here.

The lockdowns are not without cost.

It’s political cowardice of the highest order.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by eldanielfire »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:57 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:55 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:46 pm

No point Eldan absolutely believe debt doesn’t matter. There’s an terrible reckoning coming at some point.
That's total bulshit you liar. The UK has been in relatively more debt than before, it is a stable economy and the chancellor doesn't appear to have borrowing issues right now.


As I said you don’t believe that debt matters.
WHat crap? :lol: You act like I haven't been critical of Government spending. I'm a horses for courses type though. I believe in austerity when a countries finances, employment and economic are strong and investment, even if borrowing si needed when a countries economy requires it. Confidence and resources are factors in when is it good and when is it not right.

Meanwhile you're a politically partisan fool who is mentally deranged about it.

As a clue, it took the UK nearly 20 years to recover the last time we were this much in debt. This will be much worse. By all means accept MMT and argue for it, but stop arguing it’s ok. It,isn’t,
I'd like to see this as well. I mean it's clear the Government is able to borrow hundreds of millions with good reason. It's clear the governments are borrowing this money now. So why do I have to show a limit to a statement that is what is actually happening. It's a fact the government borrowing and debt has been higher in the past as well.

And this is the problem “able to borrow hundreds of millions” ..... so f ucking what, currently we are borrowing 20 hundred million every day. Every day. The scale isn’t repeated at anytime in history.
Of course not, that's inflation. However the UKs debt to GDP ratio has been higher for long periods in both of the last 2 centuries. It's important if you do so that you are increasing the means of paying it back. That comes with improved public health and education, improved infrastructure, stimulating economic growth.

These arguments are lost on you because you're a deluded manic who thinks they know better than everybody. Even when the facts go against you.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by eldanielfire »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:35 pm
6.Jones wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:06 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:57 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:55 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:46 pm

No point Eldan absolutely believe debt doesn’t matter. There’s an terrible reckoning coming at some point.
That's total bulshit you liar. The UK has been in relatively more debt than before, it is a stable economy and the chancellor doesn't appear to have borrowing issues right now.


As I said you don’t believe that debt matters.


As a clue, it took the UK nearly 20 years to recover the last time we were this much in debt. This will be much worse. By all means accept MMT and argue for it, but stop arguing it’s ok. It,isn’t,
I'd like to see this as well. I mean it's clear the Government is able to borrow hundreds of millions with good reason. It's clear the governments are borrowing this money now. So why do I have to show a limit to a statement that is what is actually happening. It's a fact the government borrowing and debt has been higher in the past as well.

And this is the problem “able to borrow hundreds of millions” ..... so f ucking what, currently we are borrowing 20 hundred million every day. Every day. The scale isn’t repeated at anytime in history.
Good time to try MMT then.

The state can feed me, educate me , dictate where I live, etc etc.

It’s a revolting idea.
Like it or not the state is why you aren't a peasant eating shit off the floor. Directly or indirectly you are fed by the state and all that it has done so normal human life can be working a job and having a family at home.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

Like it or not the state is why you aren't a peasant eating shit off the floor. Directly or indirectly you are fed by the state and all that it has done so normal human life can be working a job and having a family at home.

We are fed by capitalism and the extreme efficiency of the private sector you idiot. The state (in its various forms) has committed more harm to humans and their lives and anything the free market has ever dreamt of.

The reason I’m not a peasant eating shit off the floor is I,was lucky enough to be born at time of democracy and an attempt at freedom.

You’re literally the anti truth on these matters.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

Of course not, that's inflation. However the UKs debt to GDP ratio has been higher for long periods in both of the last 2 centuries. It's important if you do so that you are increasing the means of paying it back. That comes with improved public health and education, improved infrastructure, stimulating economic growth.

These arguments are lost on you because you're a deluded manic who thinks they know better than everybody. Even when the facts go against you.

THE SCALE obviously takes inflation into account , once again you don’t actually understand the issue.

We will be restricting massively the spending on public health and education going forward (like 1945 - 1965) because we will be paying the huge debt incurred this year. FACT

Let’s be clear 2.2 billion a day under any comparative (or scale) has never been borrowed before and certainly not to produce a record fall in economic activity. FACT

My arguments are the knowledgeable conservative norm, what you keep exposing as ok really isn’t. It’s f**king madness. You really have no grasp of the basics of economics, my children know more.
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eldanielfire
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by eldanielfire »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:59 pm
Like it or not the state is why you aren't a peasant eating shit off the floor. Directly or indirectly you are fed by the state and all that it has done so normal human life can be working a job and having a family at home.

We are fed by capitalism and the extreme efficiency of the private sector you idiot. The state (in its various forms) has committed more harm to humans and their lives and anything the free market has ever dreamt of.
WHat allows fair capitalism and not a feudal society? The protections put in by the state. Despite the relentless idiotic claims the free market is a free natural state towards progress, it only exists due to laws that create and protect our lives, health, homes and ability to trade openly and freely.

Capitalism isn't a stateless ecosystem that governments interfere with.

The reason I’m not a peasant eating shit off the floor is I,was lucky enough to be born at time of democracy and an attempt at freedom.

You’re literally the anti truth on these matters.

All of which is protected and created by the state you numpty.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by eldanielfire »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:04 pm
Of course not, that's inflation. However the UKs debt to GDP ratio has been higher for long periods in both of the last 2 centuries. It's important if you do so that you are increasing the means of paying it back. That comes with improved public health and education, improved infrastructure, stimulating economic growth.

These arguments are lost on you because you're a deluded manic who thinks they know better than everybody. Even when the facts go against you.

THE SCALE obviously takes inflation into account , once again you don’t actually understand the issue.
Then we are not at our highest level of debt you idiot!

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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

WHat allows fair capitalism and not a feudal society? The protections put in by the state. Despite the relentless idiotic claims the free market is a free natural state towards progress, it only exists due to laws that create and protect our lives, health, homes and ability to trade openly and freely.

Capitalism isn't a stateless ecosystem that governments interfere with.

The feudal system was the state ..... the state did those things to humans and still does in some counties..

The Laws we now have are incredibly new, they’ve been dragged out of the state by centuries of suffering and small steps made by humans.

A quick bit of context is that in 1945 the UK was one of about 11 actual democratic systems on the planet.

It would also surprise you to know capitalism and trade have always existed for man kind and have always been around when great leaps in human development have occured mainly because they produce a glut in the basics,which allows for development of other things.

None of this is the “state” , it can only hinder or get out the way of development.

You’re unable to contextualise anything,
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

Your chart is wrong.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1637 ... onal-debt/


The periods of massive debt from war caused huge misery. Let’s see how close we get.


Remember all we have achieved with the 400 billion so far is keeping a few old and fat people alive.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by C69 »

:lol: fecking hell this is comedy gold.
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eldanielfire
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by eldanielfire »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:37 pm
WHat allows fair capitalism and not a feudal society? The protections put in by the state. Despite the relentless idiotic claims the free market is a free natural state towards progress, it only exists due to laws that create and protect our lives, health, homes and ability to trade openly and freely.

Capitalism isn't a stateless ecosystem that governments interfere with.

The feudal system was the state ..... the state did those things to humans and still does in some counties..

:lol: The state didn't create the feudal system, it was made might by right and conquest. Then make everyone essentially serve by force. Kings ran it, not states. The state then evolved out of it as something better.


The Laws we now have are incredibly new, they’ve been dragged out of the state by centuries of suffering and small steps made by humans.

A quick bit of context is that in 1945 the UK was one of about 11 actual democratic systems on the planet.
Thanks to among other things, the state protecting that democratic system.

It would also surprise you to know capitalism and trade have always existed for man kind and have always been around when great leaps in human development have occured mainly because they produce a glut in the basics,which allows for development of other things.

None of this is the “state” , it can only hinder or get out the way of development.

You’re unable to contextualise anything,
So has murder, slavery, thieves, betrayal,right by might, disease and tradegy and clubbing people to death if they tried to sell you something and you didn't want to pay and murdering their children before rping their wives. Doesn't make them good things.

However society evolved to better things, fairness, levels of equality of opportunity, sharing, hierarchy etc 2000 years ago you'd be a pheasant without a hope in the world.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by eldanielfire »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:40 pm Your chart is wrong.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1637 ... onal-debt/

Did you read your link? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by 6.Jones »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:35 pm
6.Jones wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:06 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:57 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:55 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:46 pm

No point Eldan absolutely believe debt doesn’t matter. There’s an terrible reckoning coming at some point.
That's total bulshit you liar. The UK has been in relatively more debt than before, it is a stable economy and the chancellor doesn't appear to have borrowing issues right now.


As I said you don’t believe that debt matters.


As a clue, it took the UK nearly 20 years to recover the last time we were this much in debt. This will be much worse. By all means accept MMT and argue for it, but stop arguing it’s ok. It,isn’t,
I'd like to see this as well. I mean it's clear the Government is able to borrow hundreds of millions with good reason. It's clear the governments are borrowing this money now. So why do I have to show a limit to a statement that is what is actually happening. It's a fact the government borrowing and debt has been higher in the past as well.

And this is the problem “able to borrow hundreds of millions” ..... so f ucking what, currently we are borrowing 20 hundred million every day. Every day. The scale isn’t repeated at anytime in history.
Good time to try MMT then.

The state can feed me, educate me , dictate where I live, etc etc.

It’s a revolting idea.
Eh? All MMT means in this context is the state can loan itself the money, and write off the loan in the future. If correct, and done quickly, it means the dire financial outcomes you predict will not happen. If not, it means some inflation. Inflation is the least of your worries.

No one is going to try to feed you.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by C69 »

Supposing there is such a thing as slack in the system obviously.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

So has murder, slavery, thieves, betrayal,right by might, disease and tradegy and clubbing people to death if they tried to sell you something and you didn't want to pay and murdering their children before rping their wives. Doesn't make them good things.

However society evolved to better things, fairness, levels of equality of opportunity, sharing, hierarchy etc 2000 years ago you'd be a pheasant without a hope in the world.


Society just “evolved”......


As I I’ve said you have no ability to contextualise anything. Anyway enjoy your state slavery.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

Eh? All MMT means in this context is the state can loan itself the money, and write off the loan in the future. If correct, and done quickly, it means the dire financial outcomes you predict will not happen. If not, it means some inflation. Inflation is the least of your worries.

No one is going to try to feed you.
Of course the “loan” has to be repaid to be a “loan”.


And yes of the state provides all your “money” then it also controls the ability to buy food, but don’t worry our footballers will ensure we eat.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by eldanielfire »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:14 pm
So has murder, slavery, thieves, betrayal,right by might, disease and tradegy and clubbing people to death if they tried to sell you something and you didn't want to pay and murdering their children before rping their wives. Doesn't make them good things.

However society evolved to better things, fairness, levels of equality of opportunity, sharing, hierarchy etc 2000 years ago you'd be a pheasant without a hope in the world.


Society just “evolved”......


As I I’ve said you have no ability to contextualise anything. Anyway enjoy your state slavery.
As always you can't even explain any context accurately.

But yeah :lol: Yeah the state is making me a slave, because life was so much better hundreds of years ago :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by Short Man Syndrome »

bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:14 pm Anyway enjoy your state slavery.
And Bims assumes his final form of Rick from the Young Ones.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by Frodder »

Short Man Syndrome wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:29 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:14 pm Anyway enjoy your state slavery.
And Bims assumes his final form of Rick from the Young Ones.
Hands up who likes me
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

Short Man Syndrome wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:29 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:14 pm Anyway enjoy your state slavery.
And Bims assumes his final form of Rick from the Young Ones.


You don’t really understand even the most basic of cultural references do you.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Post by bimboman »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:19 pm
bimboman wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:14 pm
So has murder, slavery, thieves, betrayal,right by might, disease and tradegy and clubbing people to death if they tried to sell you something and you didn't want to pay and murdering their children before rping their wives. Doesn't make them good things.

However society evolved to better things, fairness, levels of equality of opportunity, sharing, hierarchy etc 2000 years ago you'd be a pheasant without a hope in the world.


Society just “evolved”......


As I I’ve said you have no ability to contextualise anything. Anyway enjoy your state slavery.
As always you can't even explain any context accurately.

But yeah :lol: Yeah the state is making me a slave, because life was so much better hundreds of years ago :lol: :lol: :lol:

“I know they keep us here , but we get fed and stuff”

Here’s some context the state ran things hundreds of years ago as well,
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