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Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:08 pm
by Edinburgh01
Blackrock Bullet wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:13 am Lots and lots of stuff.
You see everything through the prism that the UK plants are underperforming and the UK is laying waste to the world's AZ vaccine supplies to make up the shortfall.

There are a number of reasons why SII think COVAX will not meet its targets. You have jumped to the conclusion that it is due to a failure by SII. It could equally be because SII think COVAX is being too ambitious.

Quite how you reconcile SII saying that supplying the UK will not affect deliveries to developing countries, and the fact they are significantly exceeding original production targets, with a claim they are failing to deliver to COVAX is a mystery to me.

As I believe I have pointed out, bearing in mind I can't read the FT, you are relying on out of date articles in an evolving situation. I did you the courtesy of research on recent articles to see if they supported information from months ago. All the sources I found supported the references I quoted, not yours. I politely asked you to offer more current information. I have every confidence that the publications reported what was thought true at the time, but if it was correct, it would still be and there would be current mention of it.

Edit
Full disclosure, I went from this to read the paper. The EU are currently claiming 1 m AZ vaccines have gone to the UK from the EU.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... rsula-von/

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:27 pm
by Petej
Edinburgh01 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:08 pm
Blackrock Bullet wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:13 am Lots and lots of stuff.
You see everything through the prism that the UK plants are underperforming and the UK is laying waste to the world's AZ vaccine supplies to make up the shortfall.

There are a number of reasons why SII think COVAX will not meet its targets. You have jumped to the conclusion that it is due to a failure by SII. It could equally be because SII think COVAX is being too ambitious.

Quite how you reconcile SII saying that supplying the UK will not affect deliveries to developing countries, and the fact they are significantly exceeding original production targets, with a claim they are failing to deliver to COVAX is a mystery to me.

As I believe I have pointed out, bearing in mind I can't read the FT, you are relying on out of date articles in an evolving situation. I did you the courtesy of research on recent articles to see if they supported information from months ago. All the sources I found supported the references I quoted, not yours. I politely asked you to offer more current information. I have every confidence that the publications reported what was thought true at the time, but if it was correct, it would still be and there would be current mention of it.

Edit
Full disclosure, I went from this to read the paper. The EU are currently claiming 1 m AZ vaccines have gone to the UK from the EU.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... rsula-von/
It will be difficult enough to get accurate info within a company. Journalist's and politicians are further removed.

I noticed that AZ comms department messed up again. How not to communicate when you actually have a good product.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/03/23/ast ... e-results/

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:33 pm
by message #2527204
clementinfrance wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:08 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:25 pm
Gospel wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:07 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:24 am Fair summary of the current situation here...

https://twitter.com/BBCRosAtkins/status ... 7480184841
I like Ros but I think he's being a bit misleading here. You cannot equate the US blanket ban on exporting vaccines and constituent ingredients with the UK's contract with a single supplier in AZ. It is just a quirk of fate that has thrown the publicly funded Oxford candidate to the front of the vaccine programme and the likes of Sanofi for whom the EU were relying on had to abandon trials. Ros is saving EU blushes by not commenting on the god awful PR shit-show that the EU have been waging on AZ and the Oxford vaccine. Their collective lack of competency has been a hugely contributing factor to all this.
He totally ignores the fact that the UK had absolutely zero mass production facilities for vaccine at the start of 2020. The insistence on building our own was due to Bingham's foresight when anticipating the EU response.
Are you talking about production facilities that the EU helped finance?
No. The UK facilities.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:35 pm
by CM11
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:33 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:08 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:25 pm
Gospel wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:07 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:24 am Fair summary of the current situation here...

https://twitter.com/BBCRosAtkins/status ... 7480184841
I like Ros but I think he's being a bit misleading here. You cannot equate the US blanket ban on exporting vaccines and constituent ingredients with the UK's contract with a single supplier in AZ. It is just a quirk of fate that has thrown the publicly funded Oxford candidate to the front of the vaccine programme and the likes of Sanofi for whom the EU were relying on had to abandon trials. Ros is saving EU blushes by not commenting on the god awful PR shit-show that the EU have been waging on AZ and the Oxford vaccine. Their collective lack of competency has been a hugely contributing factor to all this.
He totally ignores the fact that the UK had absolutely zero mass production facilities for vaccine at the start of 2020. The insistence on building our own was due to Bingham's foresight when anticipating the EU response.
Are you talking about production facilities that the EU helped finance?
No. The UK facilities.
So yes.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:37 pm
by clementinfrance
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:35 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:33 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:08 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:25 pm
Gospel wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:07 pm
I like Ros but I think he's being a bit misleading here. You cannot equate the US blanket ban on exporting vaccines and constituent ingredients with the UK's contract with a single supplier in AZ. It is just a quirk of fate that has thrown the publicly funded Oxford candidate to the front of the vaccine programme and the likes of Sanofi for whom the EU were relying on had to abandon trials. Ros is saving EU blushes by not commenting on the god awful PR shit-show that the EU have been waging on AZ and the Oxford vaccine. Their collective lack of competency has been a hugely contributing factor to all this.
He totally ignores the fact that the UK had absolutely zero mass production facilities for vaccine at the start of 2020. The insistence on building our own was due to Bingham's foresight when anticipating the EU response.
Are you talking about production facilities that the EU helped finance?
No. The UK facilities.
So yes.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:38 pm
by message #2527204
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:35 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:33 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:08 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:25 pm
Gospel wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:07 pm
I like Ros but I think he's being a bit misleading here. You cannot equate the US blanket ban on exporting vaccines and constituent ingredients with the UK's contract with a single supplier in AZ. It is just a quirk of fate that has thrown the publicly funded Oxford candidate to the front of the vaccine programme and the likes of Sanofi for whom the EU were relying on had to abandon trials. Ros is saving EU blushes by not commenting on the god awful PR shit-show that the EU have been waging on AZ and the Oxford vaccine. Their collective lack of competency has been a hugely contributing factor to all this.
He totally ignores the fact that the UK had absolutely zero mass production facilities for vaccine at the start of 2020. The insistence on building our own was due to Bingham's foresight when anticipating the EU response.
Are you talking about production facilities that the EU helped finance?
No. The UK facilities.
So yes.
So no.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:45 pm
by eldanielfire
Gospel wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:13 pm
eldanielfire wrote:The high streets certainly have a competitive disadvantage. It might even need a bigger look at balancing the wider retail picture.
Maybe it's time for us to accept the reality that most of us prefer to shop online for items and re-envisage how we use our high streets in future. Many traditional retailers are going the way of Blockbusters. I don't like it, but it's how things are.
Online retail has a competitive advantage. High streets are more than just businesses. They offer an important social hub and community interaction. Business rates cost tens of thousands. A quick google shows in London it's £269 per square meter with it being in the thousands in central London.

I believe there is space for both in the right circumstances. But our retail taxation and regulation model is outdated in many ways.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:47 pm
by eldanielfire
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:40 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:46 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:30 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:27 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:25 pm

He totally ignores the fact that the UK had absolutely zero mass production facilities for vaccine at the start of 2020. The insistence on building our own was due to Bingham's foresight when anticipating the EU response.
I do believe we should be taxing online retailers and social media companies more and using the funds to lower rents and taxes on small high street shops and businesses to encourage small, new and growing businesses.
All online trade? That hurts the small businesses too. If you try and go for companies that only trade online then before you can say 'Amazon' they'll have a small shop in the middle of nowhere selling select items. Actually, they already have the supermarkets, don't they?
I was simplifying and was aiming to say tax everything online and believe in fair taxes. I believe all taxes need some nuance to work and I believe all small and growing business should be supported by the tax regime. The high streets certainly have a competitive disadvantage. It might even need a bigger look at balancing the wider retail picture.
The problem with saying 'simplifying' is that it never is. It's hard to come up with a tax regime that specifically targets big business without it just being a simple wealth/profit tax that will see big businesses relocate.

I suppose you could have a vat discount for in shop purchases but how you pay for that, I don't know. And that obviously helps big bricks and mortar businesses too.
The devil is of course in the details so to speak. But almost all taxes have brackets and it shouldn't be too hard to do this. Obviously there will be flaws and will need to be refined. It might be some sort of VAT style tax added to retail deliveries.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:49 pm
by eldanielfire
bimboman wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:21 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:13 pm
Gospel wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:10 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:55 am I love how some people don't think a pay rise makes people be more motivated to work hard. Despite all the evidence happier people are more motivated to work hard or effectively. Perhaps they should state this when they are offered pay rises of their own in future
As a self-employed person I lose motivation the harder I am taxed.
I'm not arguing for more taxes for most people though.


Yes you are. No tax rise on a small amount of wealthy people can cover the spending. Again your economic genius coming to the fore.
No I'm not.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:52 pm
by CM11
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:38 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:35 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:33 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:08 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:25 pm

He totally ignores the fact that the UK had absolutely zero mass production facilities for vaccine at the start of 2020. The insistence on building our own was due to Bingham's foresight when anticipating the EU response.
Are you talking about production facilities that the EU helped finance?
No. The UK facilities.
So yes.
So no.
Can you put up the debunking of the EU funding the UK plants, I guess I missed it in the noise on this thread.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:03 pm
by message #2527204
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:52 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:38 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:35 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:33 pm
clementinfrance wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:08 pm

Are you talking about production facilities that the EU helped finance?
No. The UK facilities.
So yes.
So no.
Can you put up the debunking of the EU funding the UK plants, I guess I missed it in the noise on this thread.
The original announcement of finding Astrazeneca as a partner for Oxford and providing the funding for scaling up production.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:09 pm
by CM11
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:03 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:52 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:38 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:35 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:33 pm

No. The UK facilities.
So yes.
So no.
Can you put up the debunking of the EU funding the UK plants, I guess I missed it in the noise on this thread.
The original announcement of finding Astrazeneca as a partner for Oxford and providing the funding for scaling up production.
I asked you to put up the proof debunking EU funds being used to ramp up the production in UK plants. Which was the claim made at the start of this whole debacle.

No one is disputing that UK funds were also used.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:13 pm
by bimboman
What did the EU fund rather than just make orders?

CM11 just makes stuff up. How can he not accept that the EU f**ked up?

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:17 pm
by message #2527204
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:09 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:03 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:52 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:38 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:35 pm

So yes.
So no.
Can you put up the debunking of the EU funding the UK plants, I guess I missed it in the noise on this thread.
The original announcement of finding Astrazeneca as a partner for Oxford and providing the funding for scaling up production.
I asked you to put up the proof debunking EU funds being used to ramp up the production in UK plants. Which was the claim made at the start of this whole debacle.

No one is disputing that UK funds were also used.
Debunking? Why do I need to debunk your claims? The UK brokered a deal between AZ and Oxford group and gave funds for ramping production on the basis that it would manufacture 100m doses for the UK.

They didn't run off to the EU to borrow some money for it.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:19 pm
by CM11
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:17 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:09 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:03 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:52 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:38 pm

So no.
Can you put up the debunking of the EU funding the UK plants, I guess I missed it in the noise on this thread.
The original announcement of finding Astrazeneca as a partner for Oxford and providing the funding for scaling up production.
I asked you to put up the proof debunking EU funds being used to ramp up the production in UK plants. Which was the claim made at the start of this whole debacle.

No one is disputing that UK funds were also used.
Debunking? Why do I need to debunk your claims? The UK brokered a deal between AZ and Oxford group and have funds for ramping production on the basis that it would manufacture 100m doses for the UK.

They didn't run off to the EU top borrow some money for it.
Yes and the EU brokered a deal that included deliveries from two UK plants and contributed funds for those plants. If you have proof showing AZ didn't actually receive or use those funds, go for it, but otherwise yes, you do have to debunk that claim if you want to argue you're not talking about plants the EU part funded.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:20 pm
by bimboman
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:17 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:09 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:03 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:52 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:38 pm

So no.
Can you put up the debunking of the EU funding the UK plants, I guess I missed it in the noise on this thread.
The original announcement of finding Astrazeneca as a partner for Oxford and providing the funding for scaling up production.
I asked you to put up the proof debunking EU funds being used to ramp up the production in UK plants. Which was the claim made at the start of this whole debacle.

No one is disputing that UK funds were also used.
Debunking? Why do I need to debunk your claims? The UK brokered a deal between AZ and Oxford group and gave funds for ramping production on the basis that it would manufacture 100m doses for the UK.

They didn't run off to the EU to borrow some money for it.


The EU then ordered 350 million Euros worth, they funded nothing.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:23 pm
by message #2527204
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:19 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:17 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:09 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:03 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:52 pm

Can you put up the debunking of the EU funding the UK plants, I guess I missed it in the noise on this thread.
The original announcement of finding Astrazeneca as a partner for Oxford and providing the funding for scaling up production.
I asked you to put up the proof debunking EU funds being used to ramp up the production in UK plants. Which was the claim made at the start of this whole debacle.

No one is disputing that UK funds were also used.
Debunking? Why do I need to debunk your claims? The UK brokered a deal between AZ and Oxford group and have funds for ramping production on the basis that it would manufacture 100m doses for the UK.

They didn't run off to the EU top borrow some money for it.
Yes and the EU brokered a deal that included deliveries from two UK plants and contributed funds for those plants. If you have proof showing AZ didn't actually receive or use those funds, go for it, but otherwise yes, you do have to debunk that claim if you want to argue you're not talking about plants the EU part funded.
So the EU also funded plants in India and the US? Just because they funded their own supply chain doesn't mean the funded everyone else's too.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:32 pm
by ChipSpike
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:19 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:17 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:09 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:03 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:52 pm

Can you put up the debunking of the EU funding the UK plants, I guess I missed it in the noise on this thread.
The original announcement of finding Astrazeneca as a partner for Oxford and providing the funding for scaling up production.
I asked you to put up the proof debunking EU funds being used to ramp up the production in UK plants. Which was the claim made at the start of this whole debacle.

No one is disputing that UK funds were also used.
Debunking? Why do I need to debunk your claims? The UK brokered a deal between AZ and Oxford group and have funds for ramping production on the basis that it would manufacture 100m doses for the UK.

They didn't run off to the EU top borrow some money for it.
Yes and the EU brokered a deal that included deliveries from two UK plants and contributed funds for those plants. If you have proof showing AZ didn't actually receive or use those funds, go for it, but otherwise yes, you do have to debunk that claim if you want to argue you're not talking about plants the EU part funded.
No they didn't. They stipulated that supply was pre authorised from the UK plants, not that supplies were scheduled from there.

On the other hand from the Beeb:-

"The company said its agreement with the EU allowed the option of supplying Europe from UK sites, but only once the UK had sufficient supplies.

The full details of the company's deals with the UK and the EU have not been made public. But analysis by the Politico website points to a clause in the UK's contract which says the government "may terminate the deal and invoke what appear to be punishment clauses" if there is a delay in supply.

According to Politico, the EU waived its right to sue the company in the event of delivery delays. The European Commission says it is now involved in a "dispute mechanism" with the company."

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:33 pm
by Tommy Brown
Isn't the UK still paying in to the EU budget? If so then we are effectively helping to pay for the EU vaccines without getting any?

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:42 pm
by Gospel
eldanielfire wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:45 pm
Gospel wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:13 pm
eldanielfire wrote:The high streets certainly have a competitive disadvantage. It might even need a bigger look at balancing the wider retail picture.
Maybe it's time for us to accept the reality that most of us prefer to shop online for items and re-envisage how we use our high streets in future. Many traditional retailers are going the way of Blockbusters. I don't like it, but it's how things are.
Online retail has a competitive advantage. High streets are more than just businesses. They offer an important social hub and community interaction. Business rates cost tens of thousands. A quick google shows in London it's £269 per square meter with it being in the thousands in central London.

I believe there is space for both in the right circumstances. But our retail taxation and regulation model is outdated in many ways.
No you're missing the point. People are more inclined than ever to shop online which means that the high street is changing regardless. There's just no need to buy certain goods in person when you can do it with a touch of a button online. I should point out that I am thinking of your average market town across the length and breadth of Blighty and not one of the World's great capitals.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:43 pm
by CM11
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:23 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:19 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:17 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:09 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:03 pm

The original announcement of finding Astrazeneca as a partner for Oxford and providing the funding for scaling up production.
I asked you to put up the proof debunking EU funds being used to ramp up the production in UK plants. Which was the claim made at the start of this whole debacle.

No one is disputing that UK funds were also used.
Debunking? Why do I need to debunk your claims? The UK brokered a deal between AZ and Oxford group and have funds for ramping production on the basis that it would manufacture 100m doses for the UK.

They didn't run off to the EU top borrow some money for it.
Yes and the EU brokered a deal that included deliveries from two UK plants and contributed funds for those plants. If you have proof showing AZ didn't actually receive or use those funds, go for it, but otherwise yes, you do have to debunk that claim if you want to argue you're not talking about plants the EU part funded.
So the EU also funded plants in India and the US? Just because they funded their own supply chain doesn't mean the funded everyone else's too.
No. That doesn't even follow on from what I said as no Indian or US plants were mentioned.

Look, way back it was mentioned that the EU specifically contributed funds to the UK plants. I couldn't be arsed retracing those steps. I assumed given your certainty that it had been debunked. It seems you weren't even aware of this claim.

As you were, not worth discussing further.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:01 pm
by bimboman
Look, way back it was mentioned that the EU specifically contributed funds to the UK plants. I couldn't be arsed retracing those steps. I assumed given your certainty that it had been debunked. It seems you weren't even aware of this claim.

Up until 10 am yesterday morning the super EU Italian police squad had found 29 million secret doses destined for the U.K.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:02 pm
by Frodder
bimboman wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:01 pm
Look, way back it was mentioned that the EU specifically contributed funds to the UK plants. I couldn't be arsed retracing those steps. I assumed given your certainty that it had been debunked. It seems you weren't even aware of this claim.

Up until 10 am yesterday morning the super EU Italian police squad had found 29 million secret doses destined for the U.K.
Destined for the UK?

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:12 pm
by bimboman
Frodder wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:02 pm
bimboman wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:01 pm
Look, way back it was mentioned that the EU specifically contributed funds to the UK plants. I couldn't be arsed retracing those steps. I assumed given your certainty that it had been debunked. It seems you weren't even aware of this claim.

Up until 10 am yesterday morning the super EU Italian police squad had found 29 million secret doses destined for the U.K.
Destined for the UK?

Well they weren’t of course, which is why I said 10am. I admit I was being sarcastic regarding the “mentioned” bit.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:18 pm
by Edinburgh01
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:43 pmLook, way back it was mentioned that the EU specifically contributed funds to the UK plants. I couldn't be arsed retracing those steps. I assumed given your certainty that it had been debunked. It seems you weren't even aware of this claim.

As you were, not worth discussing further.
The EU has made a lot of noise about the fact that the facilities at Oxford University used to develop the vaccine had received considerable EU funding. Indeed, Oxford has raised the lack of such funding going forward as a major issue.

Perhaps that is what you are thinking about?

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:18 pm
by CM11
Edinburgh01 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:18 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:43 pmLook, way back it was mentioned that the EU specifically contributed funds to the UK plants. I couldn't be arsed retracing those steps. I assumed given your certainty that it had been debunked. It seems you weren't even aware of this claim.

As you were, not worth discussing further.
The EU has made a lot of noise about the fact that the facilities at Oxford University used to develop the vaccine had received considerable EU funding. Indeed, Oxford has raised he lack of such funding going forward as a major issue.

Perhaps that is what you are thinking about?
Nope.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:31 pm
by Druid
“Novavax delays EU vaccine supply deal amid production problems”
Novavax is delaying signing a contract to supply its COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union, an EU official involved in the talks told Reuters, as the U.S. biotech company warned it was struggling to source some raw materials.
The EU official, who asked not to named as the talks are confidential, said the company had postponed signing a deal for weeks, citing legal issues in meetings with the bloc’s vaccine negotiators.
“They are slowing down the process of finishing the contract,” the official, who attended the meetings, told Reuters.
Do you think that the Novavax decision has been partly influenced by the EU overreaction and mudslinging over the Astrazeneca situation?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BH2GY

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:34 pm
by mdaclarke
Druid wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:31 pm “Novavax delays EU vaccine supply deal amid production problems”
Novavax is delaying signing a contract to supply its COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union, an EU official involved in the talks told Reuters, as the U.S. biotech company warned it was struggling to source some raw materials.
The EU official, who asked not to named as the talks are confidential, said the company had postponed signing a deal for weeks, citing legal issues in meetings with the bloc’s vaccine negotiators.
“They are slowing down the process of finishing the contract,” the official, who attended the meetings, told Reuters.
Do you think that the Novavax decision has been partly influenced by the EU overreaction and mudslinging over the Astrazeneca situation?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BH2GY
Maybe this is one of the reasons why the EU seem to have rowed back a little bit on the prospect of Export bans

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:34 pm
by ovalball
Druid wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:31 pm “Novavax delays EU vaccine supply deal amid production problems”
Novavax is delaying signing a contract to supply its COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union, an EU official involved in the talks told Reuters, as the U.S. biotech company warned it was struggling to source some raw materials.
The EU official, who asked not to named as the talks are confidential, said the company had postponed signing a deal for weeks, citing legal issues in meetings with the bloc’s vaccine negotiators.
“They are slowing down the process of finishing the contract,” the official, who attended the meetings, told Reuters.
Do you think that the Novavax decision has been partly influenced by the EU overreaction and mudslinging over the Astrazeneca situation?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BH2GY
That would seem entirely possible, possibly even likely. It's not like there's a shortage of customers out there - I'd guess that it was still a Sellers' market.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:37 pm
by Anonymous 1
Druid wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:31 pm “Novavax delays EU vaccine supply deal amid production problems”
Novavax is delaying signing a contract to supply its COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union, an EU official involved in the talks told Reuters, as the U.S. biotech company warned it was struggling to source some raw materials.
The EU official, who asked not to named as the talks are confidential, said the company had postponed signing a deal for weeks, citing legal issues in meetings with the bloc’s vaccine negotiators.
“They are slowing down the process of finishing the contract,” the official, who attended the meetings, told Reuters.
Do you think that the Novavax decision has been partly influenced by the EU overreaction and mudslinging over the Astrazeneca situation?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BH2GY
i think i might be swerving the dodgy cunts

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:42 pm
by Druid
Anonymous 1 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:37 pm
Druid wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:31 pm “Novavax delays EU vaccine supply deal amid production problems”
Novavax is delaying signing a contract to supply its COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union, an EU official involved in the talks told Reuters, as the U.S. biotech company warned it was struggling to source some raw materials.
The EU official, who asked not to named as the talks are confidential, said the company had postponed signing a deal for weeks, citing legal issues in meetings with the bloc’s vaccine negotiators.
“They are slowing down the process of finishing the contract,” the official, who attended the meetings, told Reuters.
Do you think that the Novavax decision has been partly influenced by the EU overreaction and mudslinging over the Astrazeneca situation?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BH2GY
i think i might be swerving the dodgy cunts
I can just imagine one of the Novavax negotiators saying that. :lol:

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:47 pm
by eldanielfire
Edinburgh01 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:18 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:43 pmLook, way back it was mentioned that the EU specifically contributed funds to the UK plants. I couldn't be arsed retracing those steps. I assumed given your certainty that it had been debunked. It seems you weren't even aware of this claim.

As you were, not worth discussing further.
The EU has made a lot of noise about the fact that the facilities at Oxford University used to develop the vaccine had received considerable EU funding. Indeed, Oxford has raised the lack of such funding going forward as a major issue.

Perhaps that is what you are thinking about?
I think the EU is purposely conflating things. They are acting like their payments for the Vaccine are the same as investing in the production.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:47 pm
by Anonymous 1
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:19 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:17 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:09 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:03 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:52 pm

Can you put up the debunking of the EU funding the UK plants, I guess I missed it in the noise on this thread.
The original announcement of finding Astrazeneca as a partner for Oxford and providing the funding for scaling up production.
I asked you to put up the proof debunking EU funds being used to ramp up the production in UK plants. Which was the claim made at the start of this whole debacle.

No one is disputing that UK funds were also used.
Debunking? Why do I need to debunk your claims? The UK brokered a deal between AZ and Oxford group and have funds for ramping production on the basis that it would manufacture 100m doses for the UK.

They didn't run off to the EU top borrow some money for it.
Yes and the EU brokered a deal that included deliveries from two UK plants and contributed funds for those plants. If you have proof showing AZ didn't actually receive or use those funds, go for it, but otherwise yes, you do have to debunk that claim if you want to argue you're not talking about plants the EU part funded.
you prove the EU provided funds as you claim.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:19 pm
by Petej
Druid wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:42 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:37 pm
Druid wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:31 pm “Novavax delays EU vaccine supply deal amid production problems”
Novavax is delaying signing a contract to supply its COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union, an EU official involved in the talks told Reuters, as the U.S. biotech company warned it was struggling to source some raw materials.
The EU official, who asked not to named as the talks are confidential, said the company had postponed signing a deal for weeks, citing legal issues in meetings with the bloc’s vaccine negotiators.
“They are slowing down the process of finishing the contract,” the official, who attended the meetings, told Reuters.
Do you think that the Novavax decision has been partly influenced by the EU overreaction and mudslinging over the Astrazeneca situation?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BH2GY
i think i might be swerving the dodgy cunts
I can just imagine one of the Novavax negotiators saying that. :lol:
It could be because they aren't sure they can deliver what the EU is asking for in the timescales given. The EU have likely learned their lesson and want delivery timescales not just best efforts. Bit boring and i'm sure a journalist can make a shitty story out of it.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:25 pm
by CM11
Anonymous 1 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:47 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:19 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:17 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:09 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:03 pm

The original announcement of finding Astrazeneca as a partner for Oxford and providing the funding for scaling up production.
I asked you to put up the proof debunking EU funds being used to ramp up the production in UK plants. Which was the claim made at the start of this whole debacle.

No one is disputing that UK funds were also used.
Debunking? Why do I need to debunk your claims? The UK brokered a deal between AZ and Oxford group and have funds for ramping production on the basis that it would manufacture 100m doses for the UK.

They didn't run off to the EU top borrow some money for it.
Yes and the EU brokered a deal that included deliveries from two UK plants and contributed funds for those plants. If you have proof showing AZ didn't actually receive or use those funds, go for it, but otherwise yes, you do have to debunk that claim if you want to argue you're not talking about plants the EU part funded.
you prove the EU provided funds as you claim.
Fúck off and stay out of my personal discussions.

As you would say.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:27 pm
by Anonymous 1
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:25 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:47 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:19 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:17 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:09 pm

I asked you to put up the proof debunking EU funds being used to ramp up the production in UK plants. Which was the claim made at the start of this whole debacle.

No one is disputing that UK funds were also used.
Debunking? Why do I need to debunk your claims? The UK brokered a deal between AZ and Oxford group and have funds for ramping production on the basis that it would manufacture 100m doses for the UK.

They didn't run off to the EU top borrow some money for it.
Yes and the EU brokered a deal that included deliveries from two UK plants and contributed funds for those plants. If you have proof showing AZ didn't actually receive or use those funds, go for it, but otherwise yes, you do have to debunk that claim if you want to argue you're not talking about plants the EU part funded.
you prove the EU provided funds as you claim.
Fúck off and stay out of my personal discussions.

As you would say.
you got that WRONG

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:35 pm
by CM11
Anonymous 1 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:27 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:25 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:47 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:19 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:17 pm

Debunking? Why do I need to debunk your claims? The UK brokered a deal between AZ and Oxford group and have funds for ramping production on the basis that it would manufacture 100m doses for the UK.

They didn't run off to the EU top borrow some money for it.
Yes and the EU brokered a deal that included deliveries from two UK plants and contributed funds for those plants. If you have proof showing AZ didn't actually receive or use those funds, go for it, but otherwise yes, you do have to debunk that claim if you want to argue you're not talking about plants the EU part funded.
you prove the EU provided funds as you claim.
Fúck off and stay out of my personal discussions.

As you would say.
you got that WRONG
I got my own opinion to tell you to fúck off wrong?

Just how arrogant are you?

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:35 pm
by Botha Boy
Druid wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:31 pm “Novavax delays EU vaccine supply deal amid production problems”
Novavax is delaying signing a contract to supply its COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union, an EU official involved in the talks told Reuters, as the U.S. biotech company warned it was struggling to source some raw materials.
The EU official, who asked not to named as the talks are confidential, said the company had postponed signing a deal for weeks, citing legal issues in meetings with the bloc’s vaccine negotiators.
“They are slowing down the process of finishing the contract,” the official, who attended the meetings, told Reuters.
Do you think that the Novavax decision has been partly influenced by the EU overreaction and mudslinging over the Astrazeneca situation?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BH2GY
Novavax are a serial hype machine that have ramped up their share prices only for it to collapse in disappointment afterwards. A year ago, they tried to build in a bumper payoff for the Executive team on the basis of positive Phase II (!) results, rather than impactful Phase III results - they were called on that.

They have a working approved vaccine at this stage developed in conjunction with BARDA which is to be very much applauded and supported. But neither has any experience delivering vaccines in the volumes demanded by the current pandemic crisis. Moderna is similar story where it looks like they have a fabulous vaccine but without the wherewithal to make enough to meet the demand.

So IMO, they realise that they have not got the capacity to deliver the volumes being demanded and better to push off Europe who look like they are difficult to deal with and that they should pick off where they can make the most money with their limited supply, once the US commitments have been fulfilled.

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:22 pm
by Blackrock Bullet
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/worl ... e=Homepage

Boris Johnson heading to India in a few weeks to secure the vaccines. There are loads spare for the U.K. after looking after the needs of developing countries :lol:

Re: Coronavirus Thread. Virus v humans

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:33 pm
by Anonymous 1
Blackrock Bullet wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:22 pm https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/worl ... e=Homepage

Boris Johnson heading to India in a few weeks to secure the vaccines. There are loads spare for the U.K. after looking after the needs of developing countries :lol:
Ireland have vaccinated 13.9 out of every 100.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: