Official South African Doping Thread (combined)

[assfly]

ok

What brand were you using and what sort of diet/program were you on? I've clearly been missing something for years. As have most other guys I know who lift.

I was 20 at the time, living in Ireland. We used York, bought it from the local Argos

Wasn't eating particularly healthy either, but was quite active every day. We had a home gym and mostly did bench press, shoulder press, squats and curls.

Look, I'm not trying to impress you or anyone, you can take it or leave it. But my experience with creatine was quite a positive one.

[slick]

As an aside, perhaps the mod that banned be for this:

Well done SA.

Can’t shake the feeling that our sport is going to be rocked by years of SA PED’s abuse being uncovered. But there we are

during semi finals week of the WC, after 20+ years of no ban and no warning, might like to get on his knees and make a public apology. The twat.

Oh yeah! That was me. You did it in a match thread right after SA beat Japan in the RWC. It was reported by a number of posters. That's the great thing about the bored: it's self policing. Your peers deemed it to be a pretty snarky and somewhat cunty post. We agreed. I was just the lucky one to press the button.

Good times.

fudge, why did it have to be you. I like you.

Seems like a pretty shit reason though, particularly as the subject was discussed, at length, both before and after that post and it was hardly a pattern. Anyway. Twat.

[feckwanker]

The lifting the heavy weights and eating well has a significantly larger impact on you body than the creatine supplementation. It help, absolutely, but it didn't make you big. Your discipline etc made you big, with the creatine increasing the magnitude of those gainz a little bit.

It will do absolutely nothing for you without sufficient training stimulus and nutrition.

Mate, it completely changed my body. I was playing rugby and gyming anyway, but suddenly my muscles just got bigger and stronger. My chest and legs grew exponentially, and I remember thinking at the time how powerful that stuff must have been. One of my roommates decided to take it with me but to not exercise, and he grew into quite a lump.

inhales...............................




FFS! What kind of a moron believes this tripe. Creatine is one of the most researched food supplements in the world. It occurs naturally. People have been taking it (myself included) in large amounts for years and years. It boosts your recovery and endurance in the gym (nowhere near the same extent as proper gear does) and causes you to retain a small bit of water weight.

That's it.

It is not some boogie-man pseudo-steroid. Pull your head out of your ass.

[assfly]

Cool

[Punter15]

Creatine is completely organic. You have creatine in your muscle cells at this very moment. Everyone does.

That's my understanding of it. But taking large quantities of it and doing a lot of heavy lifting is going to change your body in a big way. It did with me.

It helps hugely with recovery and helps you train harder, but it turns your insides to absolute mush. We were encouraged to use it, but I stopped after I shat myself while on the phone to my mum.

[backrow]

Creatine is completely organic. You have creatine in your muscle cells at this very moment. Everyone does.

That's my understanding of it. But taking large quantities of it and doing a lot of heavy lifting is going to change your body in a big way. It did with me.

It helps hugely with recovery and helps you train harder, but it turns your insides to absolute mush. We were encouraged to use it, but I stopped after I shat myself while on the phone to my mum.

at least you were not in the queue for a water slide, Neil

[Nolanator]

ok

What brand were you using and what sort of diet/program were you on? I've clearly been missing something for years. As have most other guys I know who lift.

Trenbolone

That goes without saying. When you hit a training plateau, tren harder.

[naki]

Well done SA. Glad to see rigorous testing in place resulting in these cheats being exposed.

That’s all well and good, but based on the numbers mentioned in that report there is less testing in SA than there is in places like NZ - despite the fact that SA has exponentially more players.

Almost all pro players who have been caught doping are South African, and quite a few of them were pinged playing in comps outside of the Republic. It doesn’t appear that SA testing programs are more robust, but that SA-raised players are more likely to dope regardless of where they get tested.

Hope I don’t get banned for these facts

[Sandstorm]

Thread Irished. Thanks for taking the focus off our juicing kids.

[Thomas]

As an aside, perhaps the mod that banned be for this:

Well done SA.

Can’t shake the feeling that our sport is going to be rocked by years of SA PED’s abuse being uncovered. But there we are

during semi finals week of the WC, after 20+ years of no ban and no warning, might like to get on his knees and make a public apology. The twat.

Oh yeah! That was me. You did it in a match thread right after SA beat Japan in the RWC. It was reported by a number of posters. That's the great thing about the bored: it's self policing. Your peers deemed it to be a pretty snarky and somewhat cunty post. We agreed. I was just the lucky one to press the button.

Good times.

fudge, why did it have to be you. I like you.

Seems like a pretty shit reason though, particularly as the subject was discussed, at length, both before and after that post and it was hardly a pattern. Anyway. Twat.

Eh, it was done in a match thread in a snarky manner as was a thinly veiled swipe at the SA players who had just won.

[naki]

As an aside, perhaps the mod that banned be for this:

Well done SA.

Can’t shake the feeling that our sport is going to be rocked by years of SA PED’s abuse being uncovered. But there we are

during semi finals week of the WC, after 20+ years of no ban and no warning, might like to get on his knees and make a public apology. The twat.

Oh yeah! That was me. You did it in a match thread right after SA beat Japan in the RWC. It was reported by a number of posters. That's the great thing about the bored: it's self policing. Your peers deemed it to be a pretty snarky and somewhat cunty post. We agreed. I was just the lucky one to press the button.

Good times.

fudge, why did it have to be you. I like you.

Seems like a pretty shit reason though, particularly as the subject was discussed, at length, both before and after that post and it was hardly a pattern. Anyway. Twat.

Eh, it was done in a match thread in a snarky manner as was a thinly veiled swipe at the SA players who had just won.

... you’ll notice that I’m doing it in a non-snarky manner, in a thread about the topic of doping itself, with factual accuracy.

Don’t ban me Tommo

[slick]

As an aside, perhaps the mod that banned be for this:

Well done SA.

Can’t shake the feeling that our sport is going to be rocked by years of SA PED’s abuse being uncovered. But there we are

during semi finals week of the WC, after 20+ years of no ban and no warning, might like to get on his knees and make a public apology. The twat.

Oh yeah! That was me. You did it in a match thread right after SA beat Japan in the RWC. It was reported by a number of posters. That's the great thing about the bored: it's self policing. Your peers deemed it to be a pretty snarky and somewhat cunty post. We agreed. I was just the lucky one to press the button.

Good times.

fudge, why did it have to be you. I like you.

Seems like a pretty shit reason though, particularly as the subject was discussed, at length, both before and after that post and it was hardly a pattern. Anyway. Twat.

Eh, it was done in a match thread in a snarky manner as was a thinly veiled swipe at the SA players who had just won.

Not really Thomas, it was said after a match in which SA had utterly dominated Japan physically, something a team like Ireland, who used to physically dominate sides, couldn’t do to that extent. In light of what we knew/know I think it was a legitimate point. Anyway, the same posters that self policed and reported it that day seem to be on this thread discussing it just fine. And look, it has come to pass.

Anyway, not particularly digging at you, I always support the mods as we don’t have a bored without you and I greatly appreciate what you do. Just was a bit annoyed that being a long term bordie who had never come close to a banning, I got binned without warning in WC semi final week with what, in the context of all the shit that was flying around during the WC, was a pretty innocuous comment.

[Jensrsa]

SA Rugby has reiterated its stance on combating doping in schoolboy rugby, saying they ‘test more aggressively at schoolboy level than any other federation in the world’.

The governing body was reacting to a SA Rugby Magazine request following a BBC report titled: ‘Steriods at 16: South Africa’s schoolboy rugby scene faces a widespread doping problem’.

The report was littered with examples of doping allegations at schoolboy level but SA Rugby insist they are working hard alongside the South African Institute for Drug Free Sport to catch cheats.

‘In conjunction with the South African Institute for Drug Free Sport (SAIDS) – to whom SA Rugby have ceded all testing of players and the management of anti-doping rule violations – we test more aggressively at schoolboy level than any other federation in the world, although England have now stepped up their interventions. We want to catch cheats,’ said a spokesperson for SA Rugby.

‘In the past number of years, we have tested many schoolboys in the only place we have jurisdiction to test – our Youth Week tournaments. In fact, we pay for additional tests over and above what SAIDS would normally conduct. Every year all attendees at the U16 and U18 tournaments undergo compulsory doping education.

‘Even though we do not have jurisdiction at schools, we write regularly to the principals of rugby-playing schools reminding them of their duty of care to their boys and urging them to voluntarily enrol in SAIDS testing programmes. A number of them do.

‘SAIDS has complete independent jurisdiction at the professional level of the game – here we regularly educate and test players – and the incidence of suspensions of players in the South African game is not out of sync with international norms.’

https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/sa-rugby-r ... ing-issue/

[blindcider]

Well done SA.



during semi finals week of the WC, after 20+ years of no ban and no warning, might like to get on his knees and make a public apology. The twat.

Oh yeah! That was me. You did it in a match thread right after SA beat Japan in the RWC. It was reported by a number of posters. That's the great thing about the bored: it's self policing. Your peers deemed it to be a pretty snarky and somewhat cunty post. We agreed. I was just the lucky one to press the button.

Good times.

fudge, why did it have to be you. I like you.

Seems like a pretty shit reason though, particularly as the subject was discussed, at length, both before and after that post and it was hardly a pattern. Anyway. Twat.

Not really Thomas, it was said after a match in which SA had utterly dominated Japan physically, something a team like Ireland, who used to physically dominate sides, couldn’t do to that extent. In light of what we knew/know I think it was a legitimate point. Anyway, the same posters that self policed and reported it that day seem to be on this thread discussing it just fine. And look, it has come to pass.

Anyway, not particularly digging at you, I always support the mods as we don’t have a bored without you and I greatly appreciate what you do. Just was a bit annoyed that being a long term bordie who had never come close to a banning, I got binned without warning in WC semi final week with what, in the context of all the shit that was flying around during the WC, was a pretty innocuous comment.

You got lucky, If I'd still been a mod I would have banned anyone who wasn't English (plus henry, c69 and orangeside) during final week just so we could discuss the match in relative calm without all the normal chippy nonsense that comes out whenever England play...

[Calculus]

Well done SA. Glad to see rigorous testing in place resulting in these cheats being exposed.

That’s all well and good, but based on the numbers mentioned in that report there is less testing in SA than there is in places like NZ - despite the fact that SA has exponentially more players.


Hope I don’t get banned for these facts

Did that article mention it? I must have missed it, how many rugby drug tests did New Zealand carry out in 2019? Unfortunately I have little difficulty in believing drug use is common place in SA rugby. However, the idea that New Zealand where rugby is even more important to the national psyche, a country with the most successful rugby teams on earth and who pride themselves on their exceptional “fitness” that enables them to close out games in the last twenty minutes when other teams are tiring, the idea that this country is somehow an exception when it comes to drug use in rugby seems a stretch.

As an aside, is the phrase “exponentially more” a thing now? That’s a genuine question by the way as English is my second language. I understand exponential growth, an exponential increase, but one quantity being exponentially more than another? It just sounds wrong to me.

[Blake]

SA Rugby has reiterated its stance on combating doping in schoolboy rugby, saying they ‘test more aggressively at schoolboy level than any other federation in the world’.

The governing body was reacting to a SA Rugby Magazine request following a BBC report titled: ‘Steriods at 16: South Africa’s schoolboy rugby scene faces a widespread doping problem’.

The report was littered with examples of doping allegations at schoolboy level but SA Rugby insist they are working hard alongside the South African Institute for Drug Free Sport to catch cheats.

‘In conjunction with the South African Institute for Drug Free Sport (SAIDS) – to whom SA Rugby have ceded all testing of players and the management of anti-doping rule violations – we test more aggressively at schoolboy level than any other federation in the world, although England have now stepped up their interventions. We want to catch cheats,’ said a spokesperson for SA Rugby.

‘In the past number of years, we have tested many schoolboys in the only place we have jurisdiction to test – our Youth Week tournaments. In fact, we pay for additional tests over and above what SAIDS would normally conduct. Every year all attendees at the U16 and U18 tournaments undergo compulsory doping education.

‘Even though we do not have jurisdiction at schools, we write regularly to the principals of rugby-playing schools reminding them of their duty of care to their boys and urging them to voluntarily enrol in SAIDS testing programmes. A number of them do.

‘SAIDS has complete independent jurisdiction at the professional level of the game – here we regularly educate and test players – and the incidence of suspensions of players in the South African game is not out of sync with international norms.’

https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/sa-rugby-r ... ing-issue/

The OP article cites incidents from 2014 FFS. SARU has done a ton of work in the last 6 years to fight this.

Well done to them

[Blake]

The lifting the heavy weights and eating well has a significantly larger impact on you body than the creatine supplementation. It help, absolutely, but it didn't make you big. Your discipline etc made you big, with the creatine increasing the magnitude of those gainz a little bit.

It will do absolutely nothing for you without sufficient training stimulus and nutrition.

Mate, it completely changed my body. I was playing rugby and gyming anyway, but suddenly my muscles just got bigger and stronger. My chest and legs grew exponentially, and I remember thinking at the time how powerful that stuff must have been. One of my roommates decided to take it with me but to not exercise, and he grew into quite a lump.

inhales...............................




FFS! What kind of a moron believes this tripe. Creatine is one of the most researched food supplements in the world. It occurs naturally. People have been taking it (myself included) in large amounts for years and years. It boosts your recovery and endurance in the gym (nowhere near the same extent as proper gear does) and causes you to retain a small bit of water weight.

That's it.

It is not some boogie-man pseudo-steroid. Pull your head out of your ass.

18,19,20 year old kids believe this. It was also a commonly held belief when I was at school. A couple of skinny players start using it, believing it is some miracle supplement, and op training harder and harder and then attributing their gains to the supplement alone; perpetuating the myth.

[Insane_Homer]

Well done SA. Glad to see rigorous testing in place resulting in these cheats being exposed.

That’s all well and good, but based on the numbers mentioned in that report there is less testing in SA than there is in places like NZ - despite the fact that SA has exponentially more players.

Almost all pro players who have been caught doping are South African, and quite a few of them were pinged playing in comps outside of the Republic. It doesn’t appear that SA testing programs are more robust, but that SA-raised players are more likely to dope regardless of where they get tested.

Hope I don’t get banned for these facts

ORLY?

Rugby: Schoolboy drug-testing 'incredibly disappointing'
26 Jul, 2017

Drugfree Sport New Zealand's decision to test schoolboy rugby players for the first time has kicked off a debate centred around ethics, attitude and social responsibility.

The top four first XV finals series in Palmerston North during September will host the pioneering move after concerns about players' use of supplements, and whether banned substances are being used in the ambition to reach the professional ranks.

Consent to testing is not required from parents because the tournament is held under the auspices of New Zealand Rugby who are signatories to the World Anti-Doping Agency code.

Urine samples will be collected and analysed by the WADA-accredited laboratory in Sydney.

However, school age athletes have long been tested by DFSNZ in other sporting codes, such as Olympic or Paralympic events.

The tests will be for a restricted number of substances. The idea is to catch those cheating to reach the top level rather than, for example, someone taking medicine to help with asthma.

The DFSNZ statement said: "In the rare event that a positive test results from properly administered medication the opportunity to apply for an exemption permitting the medical use is available."

Outside that, the normal results management process and, where applicable, sanction regime would apply.

The DFSNZ statement said they had identified elements within the schools rugby environment which indicate a significant potential for doping to occur.

"This includes research conducted by Otago University on behalf of DFSNZ showing extensive and uncontrolled supplement use, along with the knowledge that doping (and in particular anabolic steroid use) is occurring in comparable environments overseas, notably South Africa and the UK.

[Big Nipper]

I read the OP as the SA Dopping thread

[Jensrsa]

Well done SA. Glad to see rigorous testing in place resulting in these cheats being exposed.

That’s all well and good, but based on the numbers mentioned in that report there is less testing in SA than there is in places like NZ - despite the fact that SA has exponentially more players.


Hope I don’t get banned for these facts

Did that article mention it? I must have missed it, how many rugby drug tests did New Zealand carry out in 2019? Unfortunately I have little difficulty in believing drug use is common place in SA rugby. However, the idea that New Zealand where rugby is even more important to the national psyche, a country with the most successful rugby teams on earth and who pride themselves on their exceptional “fitness” that enables them to close out games in the last twenty minutes when other teams are tiring, the idea that this country is somehow an exception when it comes to drug use in rugby seems a stretch.

As an aside, is the phrase “exponentially more” a thing now? That’s a genuine question by the way as English is my second language. I understand exponential growth, an exponential increase, but one quantity being exponentially more than another? It just sounds wrong to me.

From what I read last year the NZRU only has jurisdiction to test schools players at the Top 4 Finals

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/a ... d=12117684

Schools rugby in most countries, it seems, doesn't fall under the national unions and therefore they can't enforce testing. Testing as school boy level requires the permission of the parents and the schools, except in the cases such as Craven Week (which is run by SARU) or the Top 4 finals (which is run by NZRU)

[feckwanker]

The lifting the heavy weights and eating well has a significantly larger impact on you body than the creatine supplementation. It help, absolutely, but it didn't make you big. Your discipline etc made you big, with the creatine increasing the magnitude of those gainz a little bit.

It will do absolutely nothing for you without sufficient training stimulus and nutrition.

Mate, it completely changed my body. I was playing rugby and gyming anyway, but suddenly my muscles just got bigger and stronger. My chest and legs grew exponentially, and I remember thinking at the time how powerful that stuff must have been. One of my roommates decided to take it with me but to not exercise, and he grew into quite a lump.

inhales...............................




FFS! What kind of a moron believes this tripe. Creatine is one of the most researched food supplements in the world. It occurs naturally. People have been taking it (myself included) in large amounts for years and years. It boosts your recovery and endurance in the gym (nowhere near the same extent as proper gear does) and causes you to retain a small bit of water weight.

That's it.

It is not some boogie-man pseudo-steroid. Pull your head out of your ass.

18,19,20 year old kids believe this. It was also a commonly held belief when I was at school. A couple of skinny players start using it, believing it is some miracle supplement, and op training harder and harder and then attributing their gains to the supplement alone; perpetuating the myth.

Spot on. The increased use of creatine in an individual coincides with an increase in training activity and intensity (and typically, changes in lifestyle and diet). But people attribute the muscle gains to creatine? It's bizzare.

[Nolanator]

The lifting the heavy weights and eating well has a significantly larger impact on you body than the creatine supplementation. It help, absolutely, but it didn't make you big. Your discipline etc made you big, with the creatine increasing the magnitude of those gainz a little bit.

It will do absolutely nothing for you without sufficient training stimulus and nutrition.

Mate, it completely changed my body. I was playing rugby and gyming anyway, but suddenly my muscles just got bigger and stronger. My chest and legs grew exponentially, and I remember thinking at the time how powerful that stuff must have been. One of my roommates decided to take it with me but to not exercise, and he grew into quite a lump.

inhales...............................




FFS! What kind of a moron believes this tripe. Creatine is one of the most researched food supplements in the world. It occurs naturally. People have been taking it (myself included) in large amounts for years and years. It boosts your recovery and endurance in the gym (nowhere near the same extent as proper gear does) and causes you to retain a small bit of water weight.

That's it.

It is not some boogie-man pseudo-steroid. Pull your head out of your ass.

18,19,20 year old kids believe this. It was also a commonly held belief when I was at school. A couple of skinny players start using it, believing it is some miracle supplement, and op training harder and harder and then attributing their gains to the supplement alone; perpetuating the myth.

Spot on. The increased use of creatine in an individual coincides with an increase in training activity and intensity (and typically, changes in lifestyle and diet). But people attribute the muscle gains to creatine? It's bizzare.

Yep. It's like when people claim that vegans have healthier diets than the general population, ergo veganism is healther than omnivorous diets.
No shit, people who are extremely selective about what they eat don't eat as much junk as people who pay no attention to their diet choices, regardless of animal/plant source. People are terrible at accounting for confounding factors and jump to conclusions about cause and effect.

[Jensrsa]

From the 3925 players, a mix of Amateurs, semi-professionals and professionals, interviewed, Rugby Warfare found that 40 percent of professionals are contemplating using PEDS, while 12 percent admitted that they are currently taking steroids.

https://rugbywarfare.com/rugby-life-study-infographic/

Info-graphic: show

[Nolanator]

That info is really unclear in places.
They talk about the big four movements, but only present data on three. Are those numbers averaged over all respondants?
The numbers look quite low, TBH. Props that only squat and DL 140 and bench 100? Don't buy it, unless the questionairre extended to pub teams who train by playing a game of tip.

Also, the effects of creatine on max strength there aren't normalised by training volume or intensity. It definitely helps make you stronger, but it's more complex than that. It's highly likely that creatine users train with greater regularity, intensity, and better programming than non-users. Simply because they take the training more seriously. To really draw conclusions you'd need a large sample base showing guys in similar positions with the same training patterns and intensity who use/don't use.

[Wilson's Toffee]

So the 1995 Books were not doping unfairly ?

[Insane_Homer]

Case Studies:

Former Canterbury Age-Grade Rep Rugby Player

In 2015, a former Canterbury age group rugby player was banned from all sport for two
years after he purchased a performance enhancing drug over the internet – the drug was
banned by Drug Free Sport NZ.

The young player pleaded guilty to possessing the prohibited substance GHRP-6, a human
growth hormone precursor. New Zealand Customs seized a package which was addressed
to the young boy’s residence. He did not think there would be any great consequences in
ordering the drug and he wasn’t aware of breaching the anti-doping regulations by ordering
the substance as a prank – he never consumed the drug, he merely wanted to show how
easy it was to order it into New Zealand. He realised his mistake after he attended a Drug
Free Sport NZ anti-doping seminar – not only is it illegal to consume a banned drug like
this, it is also illegal to have it in your possession.

Suuuuuurrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Mog The Almighty]

Steroids at 16: South Africa's schoolboy rugby scene faces a widespread doping problem

The butcher in Salmon van Huyssteen's home town did more than sell meat.

It also operated as an informal post office, a collection point for parcels and packages in his Pretoria suburb.

In September 2012, a delivery arrived for Van Huyssteen.

Then 16 years old and a promising number eight, he wanted to fill out his frame fast. But instead of steak, sausages or some other protein hit from over the counter, a small container, wrapped in tape to hide the contents, waited for him in the back.

It had been sent by his body-building cousin and was collected by his parents. That same evening, Van Huyssteen's mother took a syringe and injected him with a millilitre of the product, named 'Deca 300'. In the morning, she did the same again.

A year later, Van Huyssteen was part of an excited band of teenagers collected together at Loftus Versfeld, home of the Bulls, Pretoria's Super Rugby team.

Full Story: https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/50785122

Reminds me of the thread with the photo of all those massive jacked-up players and half the forum insisting they were all clean. Yeah okay.

[Sandstorm]

Reminds me of the thread about steroids in SA schoolboy rugby

http://forum.planetrugby.com/viewtopic. ... ds&start=0

[backrow]

Reminds me of the thread about steroids in SA schoolboy rugby

http://forum.planetrugby.com/viewtopic. ... ds&start=0

[backrow]

Reminds me of the thread about steroids in SA schoolboy rugby

http://forum.planetrugby.com/viewtopic. ... ds&start=0

[backrow]

Reminds me of the thread about steroids in SA schoolboy rugby

http://forum.planetrugby.com/viewtopic. ... ds&start=0

+1

[backrow]

Reminds me of the thread about steroids in SA schoolboy rugby

http://forum.planetrugby.com/viewtopic. ... ds&start=0

+1

this

[Jensrsa]

Another SA Doping thread? Get a life

And quote other relevant parts:

But those stark stats are no reason for northern hemisphere complacency or condescension.

The majority of UK teenage players are educated, rather than tested.

Daniel Spencer-Tonks, a former England Under-16 rugby union player banned for four years for steroid use in 2015 at the age of 20, warned that doping was "hugely widespread through all levels of rugby".

In the wake of Sam Chalmers testing positive for two anabolic steroids while on a Scotland under-20s training camp in 2013, an anonymous 19-year-old Scottish National League player told the BBC that illegal drug use was rife north of the border as well.

If you don't test you won't find any dope cheats and your books are clean

[backrow]

[Mog The Almighty]

Hahaha. Sorry guys.

[eldanielfire]

http://forum.planetrugby.com/viewtopic. ... ds&start=0

+1

this

x100

[Mog The Almighty]

Yeah yeah I get it. No need to pile in, just stop replying and let the thread drift off into oblivion.

[OptimisticJock]

That explains Embras new signing.

[backrow]

Yeah yeah I get it. No need to pile in, just stop replying and let the thread drift off into oblivion.

[Nieghorn]

In fairness, the SA Doping thread seemed to turn into a shitefight about creatine.

One wonders how easy it is for a schoolboy to go solo (and coach to hear/see no evil) and bulk up to get on the pathway and then go off? Will some be able to maintain with a proper pro weights and nutrition program?