China backlash?

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grievous
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Re: China backlash?

Post by grievous »

Bowens wrote:Aussies call for Taiwan’s return to WHO :thumbup:

https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/au ... 54oaa.html
Where is Zico?
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Anonymous 1
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Sensible Stephen wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:I see China are standing firm and saying Covid-19 never started in China so piss off
Damn American army bringing it in.

I can see this going 1 of 3 ways post covid.

1. Nothing changes, all is forgotten once a vaccine is found and we keep on plugging away as per usual.
2. Countries slowly (really slowly) move away from relying on China for everything.
3. China ramps up its power plays, kicks the US out of their sphere of influence. Tawian ceases to exist.

I think 2 is most likely. China has scared the shit out of Australia. I doubt we will provoke them much more. But we will try and get that 35% down to 10 or 15% over time (years and years).

I read today Chinas economy is struggling too now, with the world in lockdown there is no one to buy stuff. They will have to be careful, the Chinese people will start to push back against the government if the effects become too pronounced. For all their big words and threats, its in their interest to play nice with the rest of the world.

It will be option 1. Even if people and governments want to give them shit we will adopt the fastest option for getting out economies back on track. Any country increasing their costs by sticking two fingers up to China will be giving a trading advantage to other countries. That ain't gonna happen.

The end
Crazy Ed
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Crazy Ed »

Clogs wrote:Anyone keen to kick off a pool on when WW3 will kick off? Doesnt need to be specific date, but month and year are needed to win the pool.
Started in Dec 2019
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eldanielfire
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Re: China backlash?

Post by eldanielfire »

Well this isn't nice:

Andrew Neil
@afneil
EU foreign affairs chief Josep Borrell confirms China pressured EU to water down EU reports on Chinese coronavirus disinformation, defends it as just normal diplomacy and attacks whistleblower who revealed what was happening.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/worl ... virus.html

BRUSSELS — Bowing to heavy pressure from Beijing, European Union officials softened their criticism of China this week in a report documenting how governments push disinformation about the coronavirus pandemic, according to documents, emails and interviews.

Worried about the repercussions, European officials first delayed and then rewrote the document in ways that diluted the focus on China, a vital trading partner — taking a very different approach than the confrontational stance adopted by the Trump administration.

The initial European Union report, obtained by The New York Times, was not particularly strident: a routine roundup of publicly available information and news reports.

It cited Beijing’s efforts to curtail mentions of the virus’s origins in China, in part by blaming the United States for spreading the disease internationally. It noted that Beijing had criticized France as slow to respond to the pandemic and had pushed false accusations that French politicians used racist slurs against the head of the World Health Organization. The report also highlighted Russian efforts to promote false health information and sow distrust in Western institutions.

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“China has continued to run a global disinformation campaign to deflect blame for the outbreak of the pandemic and improve its international image,” the initial report said. “Both overt and covert tactics have been observed.”

But China moved quickly to block the document’s release, and the European Union pulled back. The report had been on the verge of publication, until senior officials ordered revisions to soften the language.

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“The Chinese are already threatening with reactions if the report comes out,” Lutz Güllner, a European Union diplomat, wrote to colleagues on Tuesday in an email seen by The Times.

The sentence about China’s “global disinformation” campaign was removed, as was any mention of the dispute between China and France. Other language was toned down.

The delay and revisions incited anger and frustration among some diplomats and government disinformation analysts. At least one analyst formally objected, writing to her bosses that the European Union was “self-censoring to appease the Chinese Communist Party.”

The fight over the document is part of a broad, global battle over the coronavirus narrative. And it comes at a time when the European Union hopes to win trade concessions from Beijing and restore a rich relationship once the pandemic has passed.

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Chinese officials initially tried to silence doctors and play down the seriousness of the coronavirus outbreak in the city of Wuhan late last year. Eager to have the world forget that chapter, China has also tried to focus world attention on the contributions of its scientists and its worldwide donations of medical supplies.

The Trump administration has consistently blamed China for responding slowly when the virus emerged late last year and for spreading false information about the pandemic.

Even after the Trump administration reached a brief truce with the Chinese government to stop trading public barbs about the crisis, both sides have resumed their finger-pointing. President Trump said last week that his government was trying to figure out whether the virus came from a Chinese lab, while China has accused the American government of trying to distract the public from its own mistakes.

Against that backdrop, the European Union was expected to issue its report. Early Tuesday morning, Politico quoted from the document in its morning newsletter and said that the paper was expected to be published that day.

But Chinese officials quickly contacted the European Union’s representatives in Beijing to try to kill the report, according to two diplomats with knowledge of the exchange and emails recounting the calls.

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The European Union, like the United States, has struggled to find a coherent approach toward combating disinformation. A task force of analysts regularly highlights foreign propaganda, but its work has been sanitized at times over political concerns.

Senior officials have softened language about Russia in the past as the bloc tried to improve relations with Moscow. A report last year on pre-election propaganda stripped out all references to Russian support for certain European political groups.

The new European Union report comes as the bloc is trying to get better treatment for its companies in China. Two-way trade was estimated at more than $1.6 billion per day before the pandemic. German automakers and French farmers, along with other industries, rely heavily on exports to China.

Peter Stano, a European Union spokesman, said Friday that the report had not been delayed. “It is ready once it is complete, cleared in an editorial process and ready to be uploaded,” he said.

On Tuesday morning, however, an email circulated inside the disinformation task force team with the subject line: “READY for publication.” A supervisor approved it and an analyst was about to publish a summary online.

But Esther Osorio, a senior adviser to the European Union’s top diplomat, Josep Borrell, ordered it held, according to an email.


ImageA cargo plane from China arrived in Poland last week with medical supplies.
A cargo plane from China arrived in Poland last week with medical supplies.Credit...Leszek Szymanski/EPA, via Shutterstock
While analysts say that the Kremlin’s tactics are intended to undermine confidence in Western governments, the Chinese government is focused more on reshaping its role in the coronavirus story and deflecting blame for the pandemic.

Central and Eastern Europe, in particular, are a hotbed for disinformation tactics, diplomats say. “Poland is the petri dish for Russia and China to try out their disinformation, their trolls and bots,” the American ambassador in Poland, Georgette Mosbacher, said in an interview on Thursday.

As officials in Brussels delayed publishing their report, Chinese officials in Beijing kept up the pressure with at least two high-level calls to the European representatives there, according to emails and interviews with diplomats. Chinese officials expressed alarm at the news of a coming report and urged the bloc not to release the document.

Ms. Osorio, the aide to Mr. Borell, asked analysts to revise the document to focus less explicitly on China and Russia to avoid accusations of bias, according to an email and interviews. She asked analysts to differentiate between pushing disinformation and aggressively pushing a narrative, and to document each “as we already see heavy pushback from CN" — an abbreviation for China.

Mr. Stano, the European Union spokesman, said no revisions to the document had been ordered in response to diplomatic pressure. Internally, though, some analysts objected to changing the language in the face of criticism.

“Such appeasement will set a terrible precedent and encourage similar coercion in the future,” an analyst, Monika Richter, wrote to her colleagues and supervisors in an email seen by The Times. She said that European Union diplomats were “self-censoring to appease the Chinese Communist Party.” She also wrote that it was a lie to claim that the document had not been scheduled for release.

When the public summary of the report went online on Friday, the section on state-sponsored disinformation, which had singled out China and Russia, had been folded into the rest of the report. Many of the examples related to China’s actions were included at the bottom, under the heading “Other selected activities.”

The original report said that European analysts had assessed a “continued and coordinated push by official Chinese sources to deflect any blame.” That wording now says: “We see continued and coordinated push by some actors, including Chinese sources, to deflect any blame.”

The new version omitted references to China’s criticism of France and a pro-Chinese bot network in Serbia.

When asked about the report on Friday, a top Chinese diplomat denied that China had engaged in any disinformation and dismissed any suggestion that it had been using the pandemic to play politics. Instead, he said, it was time to work together to fight the virus.

“We do better to forget the politics now,” said the diplomat, Zhang Ming, the Financial Times reported. “We are in a battle, a battle between the sapiens and the virus.”

Jakub Janda, executive director of the Prague-based European Values Center for Security Policy, a research organization, said the disinformation report was a low-stakes way for China to gauge its influence with the European Union amid the pandemic.

“It’s one piece of paper where China is being called out by the E.U.,” said Mr. Janda, whose group has been sharply critical of Chinese and Russian interference in the West. “It’s clearly a test.”

Steven Erlanger contributed reporting.
Last edited by eldanielfire on Fri May 01, 2020 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yer Man
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Yer Man »

Clogs wrote:Anyone keen to kick off a pool on when WW3 will kick off? Doesnt need to be specific date, but month and year are needed to win the pool.
1st July 1997 ;)
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Petej
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Petej »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3cszbx5
Excellent interview. China really going for denying everything. Arseholes.
Crazy Ed
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Crazy Ed »

Well as soon as the US and Europe have sorted out the current wave of the virus I recommend we go to the South China Sea and sink some islands. These pricks have become intolerable and if we going to have a fight we might as well have it now.
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kiap
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Re: China backlash?

Post by kiap »

Crazy Ed wrote:Well as soon as the US and Europe have sorted out the current wave of the virus I recommend we go to the South China Sea and sink some islands. These pricks have become intolerable and if we going to have a fight we might as well have it now.
Sure, but that's not gonna happen. You know it, I know it.

The backlash will vent in other ways, in some cases by snecky means.
Crazy Ed
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Crazy Ed »

kiap wrote:
Crazy Ed wrote:Well as soon as the US and Europe have sorted out the current wave of the virus I recommend we go to the South China Sea and sink some islands. These pricks have become intolerable and if we going to have a fight we might as well have it now.
Sure, but that's not gonna happen. You know it, I know it.

The backlash will vent in other ways, in some cases by snecky means.
Yes and no. they posture we posture back. Besides the "reefs" are in international waters and it is an issue that is due closure.
I also spent a year or more trying to convince people that we would never invade Afghanistan as it didn't make sense but ending up doing 3 tours. Believe me if we can fight for a bit of sand on the edge of the Himalayas we can fight for this.
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kiap
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Re: China backlash?

Post by kiap »

Crazy Ed wrote:
kiap wrote:
Crazy Ed wrote:Well as soon as the US and Europe have sorted out the current wave of the virus I recommend we go to the South China Sea and sink some islands. These pricks have become intolerable and if we going to have a fight we might as well have it now.
Sure, but that's not gonna happen. You know it, I know it.

The backlash will vent in other ways, in some cases by snecky means.
Yes and no. they posture we posture back. Besides the "reefs" are in international waters and it is an issue that is due closure.
I also spent a year or more trying to convince people that we would never invade Afghanistan as it didn't make sense but ending up doing 3 tours. Believe me if we can fight for a bit of sand on the edge of the Himalayas we can fight for this.
Afghans are like a rough 4th grade team.

This would be a whole different level. Hard to see any full contact engagement kicking off without something like an attack on Taiwan happening (and perhaps even then).
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CrazyIslander
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Re: China backlash?

Post by CrazyIslander »

We could support Tibet and Taiwan as a way to get back at them.
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Flyin Ryan »

Seems like a lot of info is coming out of the woodwork now, this from Belgian intelligence of all places.

https://euobserver.com/science/148244
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Wallah »

The C C P give Australia ten days to cancel the independent coronavirus inquiry.

If not, the C C P will impose an 80% tax on all barley from Australia.

#comeatusbro :nod:

And while they are on a roll, why not kick out even more foreign journalists...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-09/ ... s/12227782
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Wallah »

CrazyIslander wrote:We could support Tibet and Taiwan as a way to get back at them.
The world should be doing that anyway and include Hong Kong too.
Crazy Ed
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Crazy Ed »

These pricks are posturing for a fight and we should give them one. We can sell our resources to somebody who isn't a bellend later. Yes it will hurt but the recent behaviour indicates they have plenty to hide.
Tariffs on 20% there crap starting tomorrow unless they back down I think we are past the dependance on medical supplies now.
This needs a strong message now in a language they understand.
They can just eat bats and drink water from their rivers is they don't want our beef and wine.
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Nolanator »

Yer Man wrote:
Clogs wrote:Anyone keen to kick off a pool on when WW3 will kick off? Doesnt need to be specific date, but month and year are needed to win the pool.
1st July 1997 ;)
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Fat Albert
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Fat Albert »

Nolanator wrote:
Yer Man wrote:
Clogs wrote:Anyone keen to kick off a pool on when WW3 will kick off? Doesnt need to be specific date, but month and year are needed to win the pool.
1st July 1997 ;)
NO FATE
Well it won't matter to you lot, you're bound to remain neutral
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Calculus
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Calculus »

It's a topic I know very little about, but I did find this article on the decoupling of the Chinese and American economies interesting. Basically it is already starting to happen and not disastrous.

https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/whos-deco ... from-whom/
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Floppykid »

Wallah wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:We could support Tibet and Taiwan as a way to get back at them.
The world should be doing that anyway and include Hong Kong too.
Yup.
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Floppykid »

Bowens
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Bowens »

One of those cases where you can’t tell if it’s a Titania McGrath style parody or a real person.
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Re: China backlash?

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Flyin Ryan wrote:Seems like a lot of info is coming out of the woodwork now, this from Belgian intelligence of all places.

https://euobserver.com/science/148244
Chinese spies have targeted Belgian biological warfare and vaccine experts, Belgium's security service suspects.
What the fuck do they have BW experts for? Looks as though the pot is calling the kettle black if we're all doing it
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Enzedder »

They are our biggest trading partner - I wonder which of the Western bullies will force us to stop our trade with them. (I would happily do that if the bullies agree to take our produce instead)
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Floppykid »

Bowens wrote:One of those cases where you can’t tell if it’s a Titania McGrath style parody or a real person.
https://twitter.com/meilixzn/status/1260184152852197376
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Bowens »

Enzedder wrote:
Flyin Ryan wrote:Seems like a lot of info is coming out of the woodwork now, this from Belgian intelligence of all places.

https://euobserver.com/science/148244
Chinese spies have targeted Belgian biological warfare and vaccine experts, Belgium's security service suspects.
What the fuck do they have BW experts for? Looks as though the pot is calling the kettle black if we're all doing it
One pretty obvious reason would be counter-terrorism.

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-new ... -1.5436111
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OhNo
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Re: China backlash?

Post by OhNo »

Enzedder wrote:
Flyin Ryan wrote:Seems like a lot of info is coming out of the woodwork now, this from Belgian intelligence of all places.

https://euobserver.com/science/148244
Chinese spies have targeted Belgian biological warfare and vaccine experts, Belgium's security service suspects.
What the fuck do they have BW experts for? Looks as though the pot is calling the kettle black if we're all doing it
Same reason New Zealand has CBRN experts.
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Bowens »

Floppykid wrote:
Bowens wrote:One of those cases where you can’t tell if it’s a Titania McGrath style parody or a real person.
https://twitter.com/meilixzn/status/1260184152852197376
I’m glad they’re coming around to the lab theory.
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Hellraiser »

Enzedder wrote:
Flyin Ryan wrote:Seems like a lot of info is coming out of the woodwork now, this from Belgian intelligence of all places.

https://euobserver.com/science/148244
Chinese spies have targeted Belgian biological warfare and vaccine experts, Belgium's security service suspects.

What the fuck do they have BW experts for?
Looks as though the pot is calling the kettle black if we're all doing it

Ehh, it literally says why in the article; to defend against biological weapon attacks.
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Re: China backlash?

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Coalition of 62 countries backs joint Australian, EU push for independent inquiry into coronavirus outbreak

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-17/ ... 9/12256910

Has the C C P lost face? It seems they can't find their face atm ;)
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Re: China backlash?

Post by bimboman »

There should be a cost for the free devaluation they’re now picking up. Either open your market and economy to the same forces we all have or GtFO.
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Bowens »

Wallah wrote:Coalition of 62 countries backs joint Australian, EU push for independent inquiry into coronavirus outbreak

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-17/ ... 9/12256910

Has the C C P lost face? It seems they can't find their face atm ;)
Aussies have completely called China out and said they don’t fear them one bit. Respect.
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Re: China backlash?

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Wallah wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:We could support Tibet and Taiwan as a way to get back at them.
The world should be doing that anyway and include Hong Kong too.

Why Hong Kong? BTW, all the PRC would have to do is turn off their water supply to Hong Kong if some sort of independence was ever attempted. If it went to a vote, the majority of Hong Kong would not vote for independence, because they know that Hong Kong is inextricably Chinese. Hong Kong cannot survive on its own. I lived in Hong Kong in the days before this supply was tapped. It was not much fun some summers, when we had 4 hours of water a day. I missed the worst of it, 4 hours of water every four days. Water usage is probably up at least one order of magnitude since those days. Fun times ahead!!


Why Tibet? Would it be viable as an independent nation? No.


If anything, Taiwan should be given back to the original Taiwanese. Then again, by the same token, Australia should be given back to our First Nation people. Are you in favour of that.


A big, and ridiculous, can of worms.
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Caley_Red »

wamberal99 wrote:
Wallah wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:We could support Tibet and Taiwan as a way to get back at them.
The world should be doing that anyway and include Hong Kong too.

Why Hong Kong? BTW, all the PRC would have to do is turn off their water supply to Hong Kong if some sort of independence was ever attempted. If it went to a vote, the majority of Hong Kong would not vote for independence, because they know that Hong Kong is inextricably Chinese. Hong Kong cannot survive on its own. I lived in Hong Kong in the days before this supply was tapped. It was not much fun some summers, when we had 4 hours of water a day. I missed the worst of it, 4 hours of water every four days. Water usage is probably up at least one order of magnitude since those days. Fun times ahead!!


Why Tibet? Would it be viable as an independent nation? No.


If anything, Taiwan should be given back to the original Taiwanese. Then again, by the same token, Australia should be given back to our First Nation people. Are you in favour of that.


A big, and ridiculous, can of worms.
You have absolutely no evidence to support that assertion about Hong Kong and the hypothetical you raised could easily be solved in the short term with support of allied nations, it could be easily sorted in the medium term through desalination plants.

With regards to Tibet, what constitutes a viable state? Surely one that can support itself for most essentials (water, agriculture etc.)? That rules out many current states- I'd wager most of central Africa doesn't meet that criteria- should these countries be subsumed and run by their former colonial masters? Of course not.
There is more to nation states than their output and national income, I'd wager most Tibetans would rather be poorer and have their country returned to them- I suppose the communist regime could always hold a referendum on the matter?
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Kiwias »

Seneca of the Night wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Wallah wrote:Coalition of 62 countries backs joint Australian, EU push for independent inquiry into coronavirus outbreak

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-17/ ... 9/12256910

Has the C C P lost face? It seems they can't find their face atm ;)
Aussies have completely called China out and said they don’t fear them one bit. Respect.
As long as the Aussies can count on the necessary support, their unique brand of straight talking could be a hilarious and potent weapon against the Chinese, who will be blindsided by the sheer bluntness of the vernacular deployed in calling a shovel shaped garden implement a spade.

I suggest the west give the Aussies the lead on this and let them start dishing out the sledging.
I'd love to see Davie Warner leading the Aussie delegation.
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Re: China backlash?

Post by wamberal99 »

Caley_Red wrote: You have absolutely no evidence to support that assertion about Hong Kong and the hypothetical you raised could easily be solved in the short term with support of allied nations, it could be easily sorted in the medium term through desalination plants.
Other than having lived and worked there for lengthy periods of time. Can you prove that I am wrong? Hypothetically or any way you like. Of course the majority of Hong Kong people would like a more democratic form of government. Would a majority support an armed confrontation with the PRC, which would never end, and would require very significant on-going global commitment? The answer is obvious for anybody who understands the Chinese psyche. As for the "support of allied nations", what do you envisage, shiploads of water? Would the Chinese stand idly by, incidentally? No, of course they would not. They would mount a naval blockade of the place. What next, WW3?

With regards to Tibet, what constitutes a viable state? Surely one that can support itself for most essentials (water, agriculture etc.)?
Can Tibet support itself? It does not have much of a history of enlightened government. It could well revert to being the feudal state that it was before China intervened in 1959. 98% of the population were serfs. Is that what you have in mind?
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Laurent »

wamberal99 wrote:
Caley_Red wrote: You have absolutely no evidence to support that assertion about Hong Kong and the hypothetical you raised could easily be solved in the short term with support of allied nations, it could be easily sorted in the medium term through desalination plants.
Other than having lived and worked there for lengthy periods of time. Can you prove that I am wrong? Hypothetically or any way you like. Of course the majority of Hong Kong people would like a more democratic form of government. Would a majority support an armed confrontation with the PRC, which would never end, and would require very significant on-going global commitment? The answer is obvious for anybody who understands the Chinese psyche. As for the "support of allied nations", what do you envisage, shiploads of water? Would the Chinese stand idly by, incidentally? No, of course they would not. They would mount a naval blockade of the place. What next, WW3?

With regards to Tibet, what constitutes a viable state? Surely one that can support itself for most essentials (water, agriculture etc.)?
Can Tibet support itself? It does not have much of a history of enlightened government. It could well revert to being the feudal state that it was before China intervened in 1959. 98% of the population were serfs. Is that what you have in mind?
That's a very poor justification. (like pretty much every civilising colonisation)
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Re: China backlash?

Post by Sensible Stephen »

wamberal99 wrote:[

Can Tibet support itself? It does not have much of a history of enlightened government. It could well revert to being the feudal state that it was before China intervened in 1959. 98% of the population were serfs. Is that what you have in mind?
That is bizarre logic. The Europeans should colonize half of Africa again based on that.
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Re: China backlash?

Post by CrazyIslander »

Looks like China is getting away with it
https://youtu.be/nbEKmauQnIo
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Re: China backlash?

Post by grievous »

CrazyIslander wrote:Looks like China is getting away with it
https://youtu.be/nbEKmauQnIo
At least he isn’t blaming the ABC
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Re: China backlash?

Post by CrazyIslander »

grievous wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:Looks like China is getting away with it
https://youtu.be/nbEKmauQnIo
At least he isn’t blaming the ABC
Thats next week's episode - the virus was brought in by boat people assisted by local Aborigines tribes using money funnelled from the ABC budget on the orders of kingpin former senator Dr Bob Brown.
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