Scummings going by Xmas..... Boris next year.

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message #2527204
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by message #2527204 »

Salanya wrote:EDF: your original comments on Starmer were pretty nasty. Whilst the man has only been leader of his party for a few months, all whilst under lockdown, so of course he hasn't been able to present many policies.

You want to judge him on his Brexit-work: I don't remember all the details, but he obviously wasn't very effective in his Remain-plans. But at least he had a position: the context here is that the leader of Labour for many months (2 years even?) sat on the fence on the whole issue, and the whole party/shadow government was tainted by this uncertainty/indecision: the biggest issue in the country, and the leader of the opposition didn't have any defined ideas or policies on it to present to the country.
If Starmer tried to push Corbyn on a Brexit position, then good on him (he definitely wasn't the only one - everyone was trying to push one way or another, and Corbyn ignored it as long as he could).
But let's keep it honest: Corbyn didn't pick Brexit over Remain because Starmer or anyone else pushed him - Brexit was always his big preference but this didn't naturally align with many in the party. Starmer's 2nd referendum plans may have caused some issues, but the biggest issue was already there.

The election in December won the Tories the big majority because people didn't want Corbyn, and Corbyn's Labour, in charge of the country. They didn't trust his plans on Brexit, and his vision and plans for the country were unrealistic (at best).

Apart from trying to spearhead a Second Referendum I don't remember Starmer being a big player in Corbyn's Labour. What I've seen so far of him as leader shows him to be a more rounded and capable politician and party leader than Corbyn ever was. At a time when we have someone like Boris as PM, Starmer presents a great contrast. We need to see and learn lots more about his plans and vision, and polls are of little use whilst we're in this lockdown situation.

You may disagree on the above, in which case let's agree to disagree for now and see how Starmer performs/develops over the coming months. I'm more concerned about the inept rabble that is in charge of the country, and their useless leader is in fact the subject of this thread, so let's get back to topic.
His plans and vision are controlled by the NEC and the Unions. It is given to him, and he sells it to the public.

Currently, you have internationalism, understanding Britain's contribution to the dynamics of violence and insecurity across regions previously under British colonial rule, the end of the hostile environment, reduce class sizes in schools.
All demonstrations currently on our streets, and coincidentally or not, all Labout policies under Corbyn.
Bayern
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Bayern »

Rinkals wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:Rinkals simpered
First of all, it's not a simple question.

Second of all, I was responding to Frodder suggestion that Mick was about to flounce: the context of Starmer was introduced by you for no reason that I can possibly fathom.

And thirdly, if I am looking for attention, it certainly isn't from you.

I would have hoped by now that you understood in how little regard I hold you, but apparently not: the value that you place on your own importance here is probably too large for you to understand in how little esteem your contributions are regarded.

Certainly by me, but probably by most outside of your little coterie of devotees.
Your entire posting style displays a desperate need for validation.
Well, look who's crawled out of the woodwork to please his master.

I was given to understand that you were going to flounce.

“Understand”. :lol:
Is this you back to your main login, Bimbo?

Yes. "Understand". As in "understanding".

Something you generally display very little of.

Not your fault, though, I'm sure.
Jesus wept you utter wanker, Jockstrap I'd wager. Redwood on one shoulder counterweight small man syndrome on the other. Look at me, look at me I'm over here squeak squeak ..
Don't stop posting though chump, watching you getting reamed on the POTUS thread is forum Gold, too narcissistic to stay down. A dullard know-all that err ..knows fcuk all. Hilarious so you are..
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eldanielfire
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by eldanielfire »

piquant wrote:
You are for whatever reason ignoring Labour had issues whichever way they turned on Brexit, had they gone full retard and backed a hard brexit that would have kept some voters and cost them others. Yes they ended up turning around and around rather than picking a message, but there wasn't a good option open to them, other than maybe not calling for an election and on that Corbyn convinced himself that people liked his message
Really where would have those voters gone? To the Tories? The narrative it was screwed either way has never been supported much by the data.

Labour backed Brexit in 2017 and got a huge number of voters. As I stated at the time, the vocal Remainers where a minority. The biggest block of votes was accepting Brexit as half the Remainers didn't want to leave the EU but accepted the democratic outcome.

The Remain position was always the worst option despite the pressure of big names in the press. If Starmer hadn't kicked off a lot of parliamentary resistance, it wouldn't have even been a question, like 2017 the public would have been in an accepting position. SO not only did he lose Brexiters who voted Labour 2 years before and the 100 years before that, but he also created a large swave of the frustration with the process that frustrated the general public to wanted them to "get on with it".

Instead Starmer listened to a small pocket in his bubble and made the worst of all worlds that pissed off the public, lost some century old Labour seats and cost Labour the last election and will cost them the next one. That will make 20 years of Tory PMs. Starmer escaped much of the blame because the media were keen to finally knife Corbyn and his toxic crowd, but Labour's Brexit position was in all the polls done one of the two reasons they lost so badly.

I literally would have bet the house on it in the 2000's that Labour would never again struggle to get to power for longer than they did in the 80's and 90's. Yet somehow they have managed to achieve that. Starmer is a key reason why that is.
juddy
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by juddy »

Margin_Walker wrote:I doubt the next election will be about Brexit EDF

Starmer is electable. He's had a successful career in something that requires real intellect. He's shown good judgement in his short time so far at the helm and the biggest skeleton in his closet that's been unearthed so far seems to be that he's made a few quid. Blair had a nice house. No one cared.

I've lived in several northern leave seats since the referendum. You'll be surprised to hear people have other interests and concerns.
By the same token, a certain amount of the support Starmer currently has in the media and in the general public is tied up with Brexit.
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Salanya »

Message: I'm well aware that you'll be following the current Tory-mantra that Labour will only and always follow whatever the Unions tell them to do. The quip on this in today's press briefing was disappointing and cynical.
Obviously the Unions do have an influence on Labour, and I think it hampered Starmer in discussing the points on education for example - I hope he'll prepare better for that in future, and learn lessons from it.

Like I said in the other posts: I'm happy to see Starmer develop his policies and strategies over the coming months. Nothing new or revolutionary will be published whilst we are in this lockdown and we don't know what the (economic) situation will be as we come out of lockdown and (hopefully) revert back to some form of normality. That will decide priorities and policies, and hopefully the unions won't have the level of control it had under Corbyn in these discussions.

For now their job is to keep government to account, and in truth you should be happy with Starmer as he could have been a lot stronger in his criticism of the government so far. As someone previously said: he's more about the facts than the drama, playing the political long game.
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by eldanielfire »

Margin_Walker wrote:I doubt the next election will be about Brexit EDF
It won't be, but the lingering feeling Labour are fundamentally betraying it

Starmer is electable. He's had a successful career in something that requires real intellect. He's shown good judgement in his short time so far at the helm and the biggest skeleton in his closet that's been unearthed so far seems to be that he's made a few quid. Blair had a nice house. No one cared.
That's what I'm saying. Starmer has dine little since being Labour leader and most of what he's done in his short career has shown his judgement is questionable, including bringing back Ed mIliband who has a poor grasp of the cultural problems and appeal Labour have right now.
I've lived in several northern leave seats since the referendum. You'll be surprised to hear people have other interests and concerns.
I agree. But understand Brexit is only part of the overall Labour problem. Even without Brexit the political academics who use the data have been saying for some time, the metropolitan cultural politics the likes of Miliband and Starmer display was losing the working class. Their siding with the Remain position only highlights a cultural issues Labour have, especially up north in the seats the Tories can attack.

The country is still divided on Brexit lines, though our media is still obsessed with left-right divides and Brexit is only a symptom of a wider political cultural issue. This was explained to Ed Miliband by a think Tank (I forget the name now) when he was Labour leader, it was then explained to the Tories (I believe all parties have a right to access think tanks whatever side they fall on). Miliband and his crew rejected it, Cameron wasn't there, however a number of Tories were and they were the ones Boris picked out to run his last election campaign and make-up his team now. There is a reason why the Tories are now spend quite a lot and have plans to consolidate their new gains after the Coronavirus pandemic subsides. It;s why I believe Starmer won't wise up, he's already picked the wrong people to go in the wrong direction and he's beholden to a still very pro-corbyn membership that limits what he can do without consensus. Such a position will erode the view of Starmer.
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eldanielfire
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by eldanielfire »

Salanya wrote:EDF: your original comments on Starmer were pretty nasty. Whilst the man has only been leader of his party for a few months, all whilst under lockdown, so of course he hasn't been able to present many policies.
Eh? My original comments on Starmer where on his poor leadership and poor decision making in tyring to force a 2nd referendum which ultimately ruined Labour last election and made the political maths suggest they can't win the next one.

You want to judge him on his Brexit-work: I don't remember all the details, but he obviously wasn't very effective in his Remain-plans. But at least he had a position: the context here is that the leader of Labour for many months (2 years even?) sat on the fence on the whole issue, and the whole party/shadow government was tainted by this uncertainty/indecision: the biggest issue in the country, and the leader of the opposition didn't have any defined ideas or policies on it to present to the country.
My point exactly.

Corbyn sat on the fence because he is a Brexiter and was forced by STarmer to pretend Labour could go another way, which damaged Corbyn's newly improve post 2017 election reputation and led to the worst election result in 100 years. Remember Corbyn surprisingly did well in 2017.
If Starmer tried to push Corbyn on a Brexit position, then good on him (he definitely wasn't the only one - everyone was trying to push one way or another, and Corbyn ignored it as long as he could).
But let's keep it honest: Corbyn didn't pick Brexit over Remain because Starmer or anyone else pushed him - Brexit was always his big preference but this didn't naturally align with many in the party. Starmer's 2nd referendum plans may have caused some issues, but the biggest issue was already there.
Starmer pushed Corbyn from a Brexit position, the 2017 Manifesto was clear, into having a sitting on the fence one. Remember Corbyn was quite strongly saying what Labour would do to rep for Brexit and how they would negotiate differently.
The election in December won the Tories the big majority because people didn't want Corbyn, and Corbyn's Labour, in charge of the country. They didn't trust his plans on Brexit, and his vision and plans for the country were unrealistic (at best).
And yet Corbyn ran it close in 2017. Yes Corbyn was off-putting for some (and appealing to others), but the way Starmer forced him to abandon a Labour Brexit, sit on the fence and obstruct it in parliament is what made Corbyn look stupid and many Labour supporters feeling betrayed.

Apart from trying to spearhead a Second Referendum I don't remember Starmer being a big player in Corbyn's Labour. What I've seen so far of him as leader shows him to be a more rounded and capable politician and party leader than Corbyn ever was. At a time when we have someone like Boris as PM, Starmer presents a great contrast. We need to see and learn lots more about his plans and vision, and polls are of little use whilst we're in this lockdown situation.

You may disagree on the above, in which case let's agree to disagree for now and see how Starmer performs/develops over the coming months. I'm more concerned about the inept rabble that is in charge of the country, and their useless leader is in fact the subject of this thread, so let's get back to topic.
We can disagree, we are having a constructive and reasonable debate here :thumbup: But as I have said, my opinions on Starmer are due to the fact he's of the same London Metropolitan bbble mold as Ed Miliband. He'll be popular with the press and pro-europeans and "Islington Elite". But taht is his weakness and the data of the past decade backs me up here. Remember Corbyn's policies were popular but the issue is with the culture of Labour and it's leadership and STarmer will struggle to go the full Corbyn policy route as it is seen as utterly ridiculous in it's entirity and anything less will be muted by a spending Boris. Remember given STarmer is at a high point here what a YouGov poll still shows:
"Which of the following do you think would make the best Prime Minister?"

Boris Johnson
Leavers 58%
Remainers 15%

Keir Starmer
Leavers 13%
Remainers 58%

YouGov June 12
And behind this his party is even less popular than he is. remember i said Boris would win the last election outright when much of the board thought he wouldn't and Labour where polling higher than the Tories a year ago.
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paddyor
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by paddyor »

The Man Without Fear wrote:Millionaire Kier Starmer is the new Gashton, Hells and Corona.
HE LIED TO CHILDREN!
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OhNo
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by OhNo »

Starmer was Shadow Brexit Secretary and a key part of Corbyn’s cabinet from the end of 2016 until he became Leader last April. It is baffling that anyone can say they can’t remember him being big player in Corbyn’s Labour. He was front and central in the key policy battle ground for several years, despite not being a true believer.
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by piquant »

eldanielfire wrote:There is a reason why the Tories are now spend quite a lot and have plans to consolidate their new gains after the Coronavirus pandemic subsides.
The reason they spend a lot now is the pandemic, about the only detail we have on their spending outside that as regards consolidating gains in the Midlands and the North is to every now and then use the phrase Northern Powerhouse, which is about as useful as Brexit means Brexit and fudge business.

Whether and when the pandemic ends we don't know, nor what money there might be to spend on anything. And they're also going to need the brave new world of Brexit to work or that's a problem, assuming they ever get there, and we don't know if Boris can carry the Tories on his spending spree, certainly not if they're not planning to spend on old, rich, white people, and we don't know if the Tories will keep Boris is he ever delivers on Brexit.
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by message #2527204 »

OhNo wrote:Starmer was Shadow Brexit Secretary and a key part of Corbyn’s cabinet from the end of 2016 until he became Leader last April. It is baffling that anyone can say they can’t remember him being big player in Corbyn’s Labour. He was front and central in the key policy battle ground for several years, despite not being a true believer.
That's the mark of the man. He is instantly forgettable. He is also selling Corbyn's poisoned antisemitic foreign policies plus large scale nationalisation and renationalisation to please the unions.
He is also committed to open borders and freedom of movement as part of the deal with the EU.
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eldanielfire
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by eldanielfire »

piquant wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:There is a reason why the Tories are now spend quite a lot and have plans to consolidate their new gains after the Coronavirus pandemic subsides.
The reason they spend a lot now is the pandemic, about the only detail we have on their spending outside that as regards consolidating gains in the Midlands and the North is to every now and then use the phrase Northern Powerhouse, which is about as useful as Brexit means Brexit and fudge business.
Not true. Prior to the pandemic their post election emergency budget was the highest increase in spending since 1992'ish wasn't it? £30 odd billion to the NHS. The major Pandemic spending came soon afterwards and their cover of wages has been among the most generous in the world at 80%. Plus plenty more pledges in their manifesto are coming. It's also been reported that Boris' advisors are planning a plurge to rebuild the economy.

Whether and when the pandemic ends we don't know, nor what money there might be to spend on anything. And they're also going to need the brave new world of Brexit to work or that's a problem, assuming they ever get there, and we don't know if Boris can carry the Tories on his spending spree, certainly not if they're not planning to spend on old, rich, white people, and we don't know if the Tories will keep Boris is he ever delivers on Brexit.
Pandemic or not, for a stable country whose economy is expected to return. Boris has also spoken of spending to invest frequently.
ovalball
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by ovalball »

Someone mentioned earlier that Starmer was playing the 'long game' - and that's a good point. Most successful Oppositions simply do not come out with policies on all matters until close to an election - to do otherwise would be to court problems - especially as Governments tend to lose elections rather than Oppositions winning them. In Starmer's case it is all the more important because he needs time to mould the party, get the right people in the right places, and to ensure that he isn't saddled with an unrealistic set of promises.

What we know about him is that he is intelligent and a very good organiser - he'll provide effective opposition while he gets the party organised - He's still got an uphill battle to turn things around enough to win an election - odds still very much against.
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by mabunch78 »

BTW, thought both Alex de Pfeffel and Starmer looked a bit podgy at PMQs, particularly the former. Not a good indication of their self-management during this period IMHO. Trump looks positively plump and basted. One of them is gonne keel over. Will be the new definition of knock-on effect. Tories don't like that sort of unquantifiable concept unless they're talking about trickle down economics...
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Muttonbirds »

Frodder wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
Frodder wrote:I think Mick might be heading for another flounce
To borrow from camroc, your problem lies in the first two words of your post.
Shut the door on the way out Mick
Yep. Thoroughly nasty man. He trolled the family of Nevin Spence in order to make a political point about the treatment of Margaret Thatcher's memory. Mannock basically had a big cry over Maggie and decided to show those lefties a thing or two by starting a thread asking if it was ok to laugh at Nevin Spence, the day after his death.

And he still denies it.

Disgraceful person.
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Rinkals
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Rinkals »

bimboman wrote:
Is this you back to your main login, Bimbo?

Rinkals and his latest understanding.... :lol:
I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who finds the similarities between a small group of posters similar to the point of raising suspicions.

However, if you say that you don't have multiple logins who occasionally rush to your defence, I'll take your word for it.
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by MungoMan »

Rinkals wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Is this you back to your main login, Bimbo?

Rinkals and his latest understanding.... :lol:
I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who finds the similarities between a small group of posters similar to the point of raising suspicions.

However, if you say that you don't have multiple logins who occasionally rush to your defence, I'll take your word for it.
I’d be v. surprised if bimbo was running a string of multis. Not his style at all.

Other posters agreeing with him are just that, IMO: other posters agreeing with him.
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terryfinch
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by terryfinch »

Salanya wrote:EDF: your original comments on Starmer were pretty nasty. Whilst the man has only been leader of his party for a few months, all whilst under lockdown, so of course he hasn't been able to present many policies.

You want to judge him on his Brexit-work: I don't remember all the details, but he obviously wasn't very effective in his Remain-plans. But at least he had a position: the context here is that the leader of Labour for many months (2 years even?) sat on the fence on the whole issue, and the whole party/shadow government was tainted by this uncertainty/indecision: the biggest issue in the country, and the leader of the opposition didn't have any defined ideas or policies on it to present to the country.
If Starmer tried to push Corbyn on a Brexit position, then good on him (he definitely wasn't the only one - everyone was trying to push one way or another, and Corbyn ignored it as long as he could).
But let's keep it honest: Corbyn didn't pick Brexit over Remain because Starmer or anyone else pushed him - Brexit was always his big preference but this didn't naturally align with many in the party. Starmer's 2nd referendum plans may have caused some issues, but the biggest issue was already there.

The election in December won the Tories the big majority because people didn't want Corbyn, and Corbyn's Labour, in charge of the country. They didn't trust his plans on Brexit, and his vision and plans for the country were unrealistic (at best).

Apart from trying to spearhead a Second Referendum I don't remember Starmer being a big player in Corbyn's Labour. What I've seen so far of him as leader shows him to be a more rounded and capable politician and party leader than Corbyn ever was. At a time when we have someone like Boris as PM, Starmer presents a great contrast. We need to see and learn lots more about his plans and vision, and polls are of little use whilst we're in this lockdown situation.

You may disagree on the above, in which case let's agree to disagree for now and see how Starmer performs/develops over the coming months. I'm more concerned about the inept rabble that is in charge of the country, and their useless leader is in fact the subject of this thread, so let's get back to topic.
I’d agree that Starmer is doing well. He is an upgrade on Corbyn (but then anyone would be). However he is indescribably dull. As soon as he starts talking you want to fall asleep. I am struggling to think of someone more boring. Maybe this is what the country needs after Boris but I can’t see the great British public giving him the time to make his case. He also needs to cut the link with his union paymasters.
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Rinkals
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Rinkals »

MungoMan wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Is this you back to your main login, Bimbo?

Rinkals and his latest understanding.... :lol:
I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who finds the similarities between a small group of posters similar to the point of raising suspicions.

However, if you say that you don't have multiple logins who occasionally rush to your defence, I'll take your word for it.
I’d be v. surprised if bimbo was running a string of multis. Not his style at all.

Other posters agreeing with him are just that, IMO: other posters agreeing with him.
Maybe.

I remain unconvinced. :P
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Lobby
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Lobby »

MungoMan wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Is this you back to your main login, Bimbo?

Rinkals and his latest understanding.... :lol:
I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who finds the similarities between a small group of posters similar to the point of raising suspicions.

However, if you say that you don't have multiple logins who occasionally rush to your defence, I'll take your word for it.
I’d be v. surprised if bimbo was running a string of multis. Not his style at all.

Other posters agreeing with him are just that, IMO: other posters agreeing with him.
Furthermore, it must take a Herculean effort to maintain Bimbot's posting frequency on a number of threads. It is hard to believe that there is enough time in the day for him also to post as a variety of multis in addition to the monumental number of boneheaded posts he makes each day as Bimbot.
bimboman
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by bimboman »

Mungo, thank you you’re correct.

Lobby, less than 35 seconds posting this. (Including logging in). It’s hardly Herculean.
ukjim
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by ukjim »

I like haggis wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... s.amp.html

Doesn't sound great.
Its a bad joke.

The way procurement and contracts have been handled during this crisis is a scandal.

Serco are incompetent but the Government have been negligent.
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by SaintK »

ukjim wrote:
I like haggis wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... s.amp.html

Doesn't sound great.
Its a bad joke.

The way procurement and contracts have been handled during this crisis is a scandal.

Serco are incompetent but the Government have been negligent.
The "world beating" track and trace app will be in place in weeks
The NHS Covid-19 contact-tracing app for the UK will not be ready before winter, it has emerged.

Lord Bethell of Romford, the minister responsible for the smartphone app, said that it was not a priority for the government at the moment.

The mobile phone contact-tracing app to tell people they may have been exposed to Covid-19, was once a central part of the government’s response to the pandemic.

Speaking to the MPs on the Commons science and technology committee, Bethell, the minister for innovation at the Department of Health and Social Care, also said the pilot scheme on the Isle of Wight had shown that people prefer to be contacted by a human being with the bad news, rather than by text message or email.
Mick Mannock
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Mick Mannock »

Muttonbirds wrote:
Frodder wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
Frodder wrote:I think Mick might be heading for another flounce
To borrow from camroc, your problem lies in the first two words of your post.
Shut the door on the way out Mick
Yep. Thoroughly nasty man. He trolled the family of Nevin Spence in order to make a political point about the treatment of Margaret Thatcher's memory. Mannock basically had a big cry over Maggie and decided to show those lefties a thing or two by starting a thread asking if it was ok to laugh at Nevin Spence, the day after his death.

And he still denies it.

Disgraceful person.
You are quite the lunatic.
You seem to inhabit a fantasy world created exclusively by your dysfunctional diseased brain.

So, fvck-off, you lying spunk-bubble.
Mick Mannock
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Mick Mannock »

Rinkals wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Is this you back to your main login, Bimbo?

Rinkals and his latest understanding.... :lol:
I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who finds the similarities between a small group of posters similar to the point of raising suspicions.

However, if you say that you don't have multiple logins who occasionally rush to your defence, I'll take your word for it.
Looking for validation again.
ukjim
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by ukjim »

SaintK wrote: Speaking to the MPs on the Commons science and technology committee, Bethell, the minister for innovation at the Department of Health and Social Care, also said the pilot scheme on the Isle of Wight had shown that people prefer to be contacted by a human being with the bad news, rather than by text message or email.
lol. fudge me the only silver lining in this is that at least Palantir will miss out on all that juicy data from the app for the time being.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/palanti ... -data.html
ChipSpike
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by ChipSpike »

terryfinch wrote:
Salanya wrote:EDF: your original comments on Starmer were pretty nasty. Whilst the man has only been leader of his party for a few months, all whilst under lockdown, so of course he hasn't been able to present many policies.

You want to judge him on his Brexit-work: I don't remember all the details, but he obviously wasn't very effective in his Remain-plans. But at least he had a position: the context here is that the leader of Labour for many months (2 years even?) sat on the fence on the whole issue, and the whole party/shadow government was tainted by this uncertainty/indecision: the biggest issue in the country, and the leader of the opposition didn't have any defined ideas or policies on it to present to the country.
If Starmer tried to push Corbyn on a Brexit position, then good on him (he definitely wasn't the only one - everyone was trying to push one way or another, and Corbyn ignored it as long as he could).
But let's keep it honest: Corbyn didn't pick Brexit over Remain because Starmer or anyone else pushed him - Brexit was always his big preference but this didn't naturally align with many in the party. Starmer's 2nd referendum plans may have caused some issues, but the biggest issue was already there.

The election in December won the Tories the big majority because people didn't want Corbyn, and Corbyn's Labour, in charge of the country. They didn't trust his plans on Brexit, and his vision and plans for the country were unrealistic (at best).

Apart from trying to spearhead a Second Referendum I don't remember Starmer being a big player in Corbyn's Labour. What I've seen so far of him as leader shows him to be a more rounded and capable politician and party leader than Corbyn ever was. At a time when we have someone like Boris as PM, Starmer presents a great contrast. We need to see and learn lots more about his plans and vision, and polls are of little use whilst we're in this lockdown situation.

You may disagree on the above, in which case let's agree to disagree for now and see how Starmer performs/develops over the coming months. I'm more concerned about the inept rabble that is in charge of the country, and their useless leader is in fact the subject of this thread, so let's get back to topic.
I’d agree that Starmer is doing well. He is an upgrade on Corbyn (but then anyone would be). However he is indescribably dull. As soon as he starts talking you want to fall asleep. I am struggling to think of someone more boring. Maybe this is what the country needs after Boris but I can’t see the great British public giving him the time to make his case. He also needs to cut the link with his union paymasters.
Mark Drakeford says "hold my beer!"
bimboman
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by bimboman »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... of-schools

Did the BMA not consult their members ? Today a group of Doctors demanding children return to school.
ukjim
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by ukjim »

bimboman wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... of-schools

Did the BMA not consult their members ? Today a group of Doctors demanding children return to school.
First published on Fri 15 May 2020
Biffer29
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Biffer29 »

The Foreign Secretary, who you might think would have some awareness of key social and political movements within the world's leading superpower and our key foreign ally, think taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones.

You really couldn't make this shit up, it's genuinely like The Thick of It.
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ScarfaceClaw
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by ScarfaceClaw »

Biffer29 wrote:The Foreign Secretary, who you might think would have some awareness of key social and political movements within the world's leading superpower and our key foreign ally, think taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones.

You really couldn't make this shit up, it's genuinely like The Thick of It.
He what now?
shereblue
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by shereblue »

EDF:

"Matthew Goodwin points out when these historic shifts are made, they do not usually flow back"

Would be interesting to see the link.

I can understand that turning round a big deficit is harder than turning round a small one, sure. However red, white and blue Churchill was comprehensively stuffed by the quieter but more apparently competent Attlee after the war. Only for the Cons to win the next election.

There is also some interesting polling data commented upon in the Spectator indicating that the "historic" Red Wall may not be quite as pro No Deal as the Tory zealots and their puppets would like to claim. Too much zealotry and a struggling economy may not go down well even if former EU Regional Funding is re-directed increasingly to those seats.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... eal-brexit

Bimbo will come along and remind me that another election is 4 years away, there is a big majority and he will be right on that. Perhaps too early for psephology?
Biffer29
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Biffer29 »

ScarfaceClaw wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:The Foreign Secretary, who you might think would have some awareness of key social and political movements within the world's leading superpower and our key foreign ally, think taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones.

You really couldn't make this shit up, it's genuinely like The Thick of It.
He what now?
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1 ... 73376?s=20
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ScarfaceClaw
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by ScarfaceClaw »

Biffer29 wrote:
ScarfaceClaw wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:The Foreign Secretary, who you might think would have some awareness of key social and political movements within the world's leading superpower and our key foreign ally, think taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones.

You really couldn't make this shit up, it's genuinely like The Thick of It.
He what now?
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1 ... 73376?s=20
Jesus H. Christ. The ignorance is incredible.
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Salanya
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Salanya »

Biffer29 wrote:
ScarfaceClaw wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:The Foreign Secretary, who you might think would have some awareness of key social and political movements within the world's leading superpower and our key foreign ally, think taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones.

You really couldn't make this shit up, it's genuinely like The Thick of It.
He what now?
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1 ... 73376?s=20
Wow :uhoh:

Not sure how he could have missed the original story around this, but seeing the current climate and he is one of the main government voices, how was he not briefed on this?
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happyhooker
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by happyhooker »

Salanya wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:
ScarfaceClaw wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:The Foreign Secretary, who you might think would have some awareness of key social and political movements within the world's leading superpower and our key foreign ally, think taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones.

You really couldn't make this shit up, it's genuinely like The Thick of It.
He what now?
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1 ... 73376?s=20
Wow :uhoh:

Not sure how he could have missed the original story around this, but seeing the current climate and he is one of the main government voices, how was he not briefed on this?
wasn't it him who was surprised when he found out how important dover to calaiswas for trade
Biffer29
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by Biffer29 »

happyhooker wrote:
Salanya wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:
ScarfaceClaw wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:The Foreign Secretary, who you might think would have some awareness of key social and political movements within the world's leading superpower and our key foreign ally, think taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones.

You really couldn't make this shit up, it's genuinely like The Thick of It.
He what now?
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1 ... 73376?s=20
Wow :uhoh:

Not sure how he could have missed the original story around this, but seeing the current climate and he is one of the main government voices, how was he not briefed on this?
wasn't it him who was surprised when he found out how important dover to calaiswas for trade
Yep.
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eldanielfire
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by eldanielfire »

shereblue wrote:EDF:

"Matthew Goodwin points out when these historic shifts are made, they do not usually flow back"

Would be interesting to see the link.

I can understand that turning round a big deficit is harder than turning round a small one, sure. However red, white and blue Churchill was comprehensively stuffed by the quieter but more apparently competent Attlee after the war. Only for the Cons to win the next election.
The cons won the next election on a technicality really. Labour then still had the popular vote in a knife edge election. However the electoral deficit Labour has to overcome has never been accomplished and currently Labour doesn't have the language tools to do it. Ever since the late 90's they have had a weakening grasp on their working class heartlands and have increasingly become culturally disconnected, largely because the leadership keeps talking and listening to the wrong people. Basically it's been easy for the Tories to move left economically in recent years to appeal to the masses, but Labour seem determined to consolidate their cultural move away from the masses.
There is also some interesting polling data commented upon in the Spectator indicating that the "historic" Red Wall may not be quite as pro No Deal as the Tory zealots and their puppets would like to claim. Too much zealotry and a struggling economy may not go down well even if former EU Regional Funding is re-directed increasingly to those seats.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... eal-brexit

Bimbo will come along and remind me that another election is 4 years away, there is a big majority and he will be right on that. Perhaps too early for psephology?
I agree the red wall won't be a zealot about no deal, but most Brexiters are not anyway. It's a valid take the government should consider. But I don't think Boris wants no deal, as I said years ago, you need to be willing to go all the way with the EU. May's negotiations showed that while they have a lot of bluster the EU really wants or knows it needs a deal with the UK. It have multiple extensions before and are begging for an extension. Boris is willing to force them to play that hand, May wasn't because she wanted a deal that would make Remainers happy, but accidentally encouraged Remainer opposition. I believe they will go for a deal, Boris may well need to do a last minute extension or two to get the details and compromise on both sides.

BTW, the poll quoted was taken by 'Best for Britain', they aren't neutral pollsters, they are a pressure group who initially where set-up to keep Britain in the EU and create campaigns with the likes of Gina Miller. They are partly responsible for helping the likes of Starmer there was a genuine appetite for a 2nd referendum and to oppose May's deals which in turn led to the disastrous election for Labour in 2019. Their CEO Naomi Smith has spent years somehow making various claims that polls show the UK doesn't want Brexit of various varieties. I wouldn't call them the most accurate engagement of the publics opinions, they seem to get what they want to hear and then weirdly it doesn't quite match the reality a I explained.
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dargotronV.1
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Re: Boris goooooone or just Cummings?

Post by dargotronV.1 »

Salanya wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:
ScarfaceClaw wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:The Foreign Secretary, who you might think would have some awareness of key social and political movements within the world's leading superpower and our key foreign ally, think taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones.

You really couldn't make this shit up, it's genuinely like The Thick of It.
He what now?
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1 ... 73376?s=20
Wow :uhoh:

Not sure how he could have missed the original story around this, but seeing the current climate and he is one of the main government voices, how was he not briefed on this?
It's deliberate, he knows fine what's going on. Number 10s culture war strategy depends on statements like this.
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