Walrus: England provides most of the greatest teams ever

naki · Post by **naki** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:41 am

No mention of amateur era Bok and AB teams, but then Jones is a young man who can’t be expected to be aware of these teams

Controversial UK rugby critic Stephen Jones has rated the 1995 All Blacks as the best team of all-time.

Jones, who often makes headlines with his calculated barbs at New Zealand Rugby, also listed Richie McCaw's 2015 Rugby World Cup winning All Blacks side as the third best team in rugby's history.

Jones, writing in The Times, listed the ten best international teams of all-time in the wake of England coach Eddie Jones suggesting he will turn England into "the greatest team that rugby has seen."

Jones said they have "some way to go" crack the top 10.

Jones listed at number 1 "the New Zealand team that should have won Rugby World Cup in 1995 but went on the year after to beat the Springboks 3-1 in South Africa in four weeks (the first win was in the Tri Nations, then Sean Fitzpatrick's team won their first-ever series in South Africa). Colossal team in every position - back row of Josh Kronfeld, Michael Jones and Zinzan Brooke. Tasty."

England's 2003 team was ranked second. "....led by Martin Johnson to World Cup glory, were so good that they were actually a little past their peak by the time of the tournament. England gave what was their greatest performance in history in the grand slam match in Dublin earlier that year."

The All Blacks side "that dominated the 2015 World Cup in England under the inspiration of Richie McCaw and Dan Carter, with hardly a weak link anywhere", were

4th: Wales' great team of the early 1970s, inspired by Gareth Edwards and Barry John.

5th: South Africa's 1997-98 team under Nick Mallett

6th: England's squad which won three grand slams between 1991 and 1995

7th: Ireland's 2018 grand slam winning team under Kiwi coach Joe Schmidt

8th: England's 2016 grand slam winning side

9th: Wales' grand slam winning teams coached by Kiwi Warren Gatland

10th: South Africa's champion 2019 Rugby World Cup team.

Sensible Stephen · Post by **Sensible Stephen** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:45 am

The 2019 WC South African team? They are the first team to lose a match and win the world cup. I don't think that qualifies them as one of the greatest teams ever.

Jay Cee Gee · Post by **Jay Cee Gee** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:47 am

Not gonna bother to unwrap his choices, but the notable omissions that stand out are the 87-90 AB's, the 98-01 Wallabies and the 65-69 AB's.

Bindi · Post by **Bindi** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:16 am

I'm just glad Australia were allowed on to the field to be beaten time after time by Wales' grand slam winning teams coached by Kiwi Warren Gatland. Respect.

Demilich · Post by **Demilich** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:21 am

Bindi wrote:I'm just glad Australia were allowed on to the field to be beaten time after time by Wales' grand slam winning teams coached by Kiwi Warren Gatland. Respect.

If it wasn't a Jones article, that one would certainly be the most "WTF?", as at no point in time would you have said "that's the best team in the world right there".

naki · Post by **naki** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:30 am

Sensible Stephen wrote:The 2019 WC South African team? They are the first team to lose a match and win the world cup. I don't think that qualifies them as one of the greatest teams ever.

They wouldn’t even make the top 10 greatest RWC teams of all time and there’s only 9 of them.

booji boy · Post by **booji boy** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:34 am

It's amazing Kiwi baiter/troll Jones nominates the 1995 All Black team when they didn't even win the RWC.

I would have predicted

1. England 2003

2. Daylight ...

3. World Cup winning OZ or South African side (i.e. anybody but the Kiwis)

4. Etc

booji boy · Post by **booji boy** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:35 am

Bindi wrote:I'm just glad Australia were allowed on to the field to be beaten time after time by Wales' grand slam winning teams coached by Kiwi Warren Gatland. Respect.

Post by **Thomas** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:14 am

Bindi wrote:I'm just glad Australia were allowed on to the field to be beaten time after time by Wales' grand slam winning teams coached by Kiwi Warren Gatland. Respect.

Indeed.

We were just super lucky to have beaten this Wales team 13 times in succession. Sometimes the stars align. In this case, 13 times in a row.

Bindi · Post by **Bindi** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:32 am

Thomas wrote:
Bindi wrote:I'm just glad Australia were allowed on to the field to be beaten time after time by Wales' grand slam winning teams coached by Kiwi Warren Gatland. Respect.
Indeed.

We were just super lucky to have beaten this Wales team 13 times in succession. Sometimes the stars align. In this case, 13 times in a row.

They probably thrashed NZ heaps of times over that period to even things out.

True Blue · Post by **True Blue** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:37 am

I think the the 2011-2015 NZ crew are clearly the best team, the record speaks volumes. Every other team is fighting for second spot. Always liked the turn of the century Australian team myself.

Post by **Thomas** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:42 am

True Blue wrote:I think the the 2011-2015 NZ crew are clearly the best team, the record speaks volumes. Every other team is fighting for second spot. Always liked the turn of the century Australian team myself.

I've been watching a few old matches on YouTube from 1999 onwards. That Australian team was seriously good across the park. 2011-2015 AB team is easily the best though.

kiwinoz · Post by **kiwinoz** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:36 am

Thomas wrote:
True Blue wrote:I think the the 2011-2015 NZ crew are clearly the best team, the record speaks volumes. Every other team is fighting for second spot. Always liked the turn of the century Australian team myself.
I've been watching a few old matches on YouTube from 1999 onwards. That Australian team was seriously good across the park. 2011-2015 AB team is easily the best though.

provided some of the best rugby ever especially in the Bledisloes

J Man · Post by **J Man** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:46 am

kiwinoz wrote:
Thomas wrote:
True Blue wrote:I think the the 2011-2015 NZ crew are clearly the best team, the record speaks volumes. Every other team is fighting for second spot. Always liked the turn of the century Australian team myself.
I've been watching a few old matches on YouTube from 1999 onwards. That Australian team was seriously good across the park. 2011-2015 AB team is easily the best though.
provided some of the best rugby ever especially in the Bledisloes

Back when every Bledisloe game had the build up and intensity of a world cup knock game

Demilich · Post by **Demilich** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:48 am

kiwinoz wrote:
Thomas wrote:
True Blue wrote:I think the the 2011-2015 NZ crew are clearly the best team, the record speaks volumes. Every other team is fighting for second spot. Always liked the turn of the century Australian team myself.
I've been watching a few old matches on YouTube from 1999 onwards. That Australian team was seriously good across the park. 2011-2015 AB team is easily the best though.
provided some of the best rugby ever especially in the Bledisloes

1992 was my least favourite Bledisloe as a boy - first one we'd lost since I started playing rugby, chance of revenge for 91 World Cup gone. Those were two pretty good sides.

We'd have won it if the sneaky bastards hadn't scheduled the first game on a Sunday.

Jay Cee Gee · Post by **Jay Cee Gee** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:51 am

Demilich wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:
Thomas wrote:
True Blue wrote:I think the the 2011-2015 NZ crew are clearly the best team, the record speaks volumes. Every other team is fighting for second spot. Always liked the turn of the century Australian team myself.
I've been watching a few old matches on YouTube from 1999 onwards. That Australian team was seriously good across the park. 2011-2015 AB team is easily the best though.
provided some of the best rugby ever especially in the Bledisloes
1992 was my least favourite Bledisloe as a boy - first one we'd lost since I started playing rugby, chance of revenge for 91 World Cup gone. Those were two pretty good sides.

We'd have won it if the sneaky bastards hadn't scheduled the first game on a Sunday.

Or if John Kirwan had just fallen on the f**king ball instead of trying to pick it up.

kiap · Post by **kiap** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:55 am

booji boy wrote:
Bindi wrote:I'm just glad Australia were allowed on to the field to be beaten time after time by Wales' grand slam winning teams coached by Kiwi Warren Gatland. Respect.

(just testing my Opera mini install)

mr bungle · Post by **mr bungle** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:21 am

Well 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10 are all horseshit.

Chilli · Post by **Chilli** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:01 am

Sensible Stephen wrote:The 2019 WC South African team? They are the first team to lose a match and win the world cup. I don't think that qualifies them as one of the greatest teams ever.

They were the greatest team in the 2019 RWC Final..........................

koroke hangareka · Post by **koroke hangareka** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:10 am

Very astute as ever from the walrus

Magpie26 · Post by **Magpie26** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:20 am

Chilli wrote:
Sensible Stephen wrote:The 2019 WC South African team? They are the first team to lose a match and win the world cup. I don't think that qualifies them as one of the greatest teams ever.
They were the greatest team in the 2019 RWC Final..........................

By quite some distance to be fair.

Vleis · Post by **Vleis** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:30 am

Controversial UK rugby critic Stephen Jones has rated the 1995 All Blacks as the best team of all-time.

a very good team, but one which lost in the RWC final and then lost to France later that year. Let's give them a mulligan on the loss to France and call them the greatest side with no BMT.

J Man · Post by **J Man** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:33 am

yeah, if you are suggesting the 1995 All Blacks then you really should do it properly and say 96/97.

J Man · Post by **J Man** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:35 am

Best Springbok team I've seen is the 2009 side. Far better than both 07 and 19.

Magpie26 · Post by **Magpie26** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:38 am

J Man wrote:yeah, if you are suggesting the 1995 All Blacks then you really should do it properly and say 96/97.

Yep, humilating the RWC holders in their own back yard 3-1 certainly ranks right up there with winning back to back RWC titles in my book.

bimboman · Post by **bimboman** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:43 am

So an admission that NZ were “professional “ before the rules changed,

Good to know.

mr bungle · Post by **mr bungle** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:48 am

bimboman wrote:So an admission that NZ were “professional “ before the rules changed,

Good to know.

He's got you by mere months, Naki.

naki · Post by **naki** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:53 am

bimboman wrote:So an admission that NZ were “professional “ before the rules changed,

Good to know.

The team he specifically mentions, the one that went on to win a series in SA in 96 as well as losing the 95 final, were officially professional for longer than they were amateur. The backrow he specifically mentions (Jones, Kronfeld and Zinny) only played together as pros.

So no.

Vleis · Post by **Vleis** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:55 am

J Man wrote:Best Springbok team I've seen is the 2009 side. Far better than both 07 and 19.

Post 1992 (readmission), there is an argument that the team from late '97 to late '98 was the best. They won 17 in a row, 10 away and 7 at home, including the following wins:
- Defeated Aus three times, including their greatest ever loss of 61 to 22.
- Defeated NZ twice, including a great comeback win of 24 to 23 after being down by 23 to 5 with 13 mins left.
- Inflicted France's greatest ever loss (52 to 10)...and away from home.
- Inflicted Scotland's greatest ever loss (68 to 10)...and away rom home.
- Inflicted England's greatest ever home loss of 29 to 11.
- Inflicted Wales' greatest ever loss of 96 to 13.

The greatest ever losses were at the time of playing, but some of them still stand today. Also, the NZ and Aus teams were pretty strong then too - i.e. no gimme wins due to shocking coaches...like with the Bokke under Coetzee and Straeuli.

mr bungle · Post by **mr bungle** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:56 am

Vleis wrote:
J Man wrote:Best Springbok team I've seen is the 2009 side. Far better than both 07 and 19.
Post 1992 (readmission), there is an argument that the team from late '97 to late '98 was the best. They won 17 in a row, 10 away and 7 at home, including the following wins:
- Defeated Aus three times, including their greatest ever loss of 61 to 22.
- Defeated NZ twice, including a great comeback win of 24 to 23 after being down by 23 to 5 with 13 mins left.
- Inflicted France's greatest ever loss (52 to 10)...and away from home.
- Inflicted Scotland's greatest ever loss (68 to 10)...and away rom home.
- Inflicted England's greatest ever home loss of 29 to 11.
- Inflicted Wales' greatest ever loss of 96 to 13.

The greatest ever losses were at the time of playing, but some of them still stand today. Also, the NZ and Aus teams were pretty strong then too - i.e. no gimme wins due to shocking coaches...like with the Bokke under Coetzee and Straeuli.

1998 was the worst All Black team in my living memory. 5 losses in a row.

naki · Post by **naki** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:02 am

But anyway, my off the dome top 10 (in no particular order)

- the 2010-15 back-to-backers: the greatest collection of players ever assembled and the most successful team of all time by basically any measure

- the ‘37-38 Boks: greatest team to ever tour NZ, followed it up with a series victory over the Lions

- the Invincibles

- the only-slightly Vincibles (the 51-52 Boks)

- the Originals

- the early 70s Lions who toured NZ and SA

- the early 90s Wallabies

- the early noughties English

- the late eighties All Blacks

- the Incomparables

naki · Post by **naki** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:04 am

Vleis wrote:
J Man wrote:Best Springbok team I've seen is the 2009 side. Far better than both 07 and 19.
Post 1992 (readmission), there is an argument that the team from late '97 to late '98 was the best. They won 17 in a row, 10 away and 7 at home, including the following wins:
- Defeated Aus three times, including their greatest ever loss of 61 to 22.
- Defeated NZ twice, including a great comeback win of 24 to 23 after being down by 23 to 5 with 13 mins left.
- Inflicted France's greatest ever loss (52 to 10)...and away from home.
- Inflicted Scotland's greatest ever loss (68 to 10)...and away rom home.
- Inflicted England's greatest ever home loss of 29 to 11.
- Inflicted Wales' greatest ever loss of 96 to 13.

The greatest ever losses were at the time of playing, but some of them still stand today. Also, the NZ and Aus teams were pretty strong then too - i.e. no gimme wins due to shocking coaches...like with the Bokke under Coetzee and Straeuli.

Great team, probably deserving a top 10 spot on reflection.

Vleis · Post by **Vleis** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:04 am

Magpie26 wrote:
J Man wrote:yeah, if you are suggesting the 1995 All Blacks then you really should do it properly and say 96/97.
Yep, humilating the RWC holders in their own back yard 3-1 certainly ranks right up there with winning back to back RWC titles in my book.

We were very disappointed with the losses in '96, but we didn't feel humiliated. It was a great NZ team and the games were all very close...other than the dead rubber that SA won (ironically). Also, we had a brand new coach who was not only poor (got fired less than a year later), but one of the most divisive in our history - e.g. he dropped the RWC winning captain. If SA had still had Kitch Christie as coach, I'm very confident that they would've won that series...but if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

Vleis · Post by **Vleis** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:12 am

mr bungle wrote:
Vleis wrote:
J Man wrote:Best Springbok team I've seen is the 2009 side. Far better than both 07 and 19.
Post 1992 (readmission), there is an argument that the team from late '97 to late '98 was the best. They won 17 in a row, 10 away and 7 at home, including the following wins:
- Defeated Aus three times, including their greatest ever loss of 61 to 22.
- Defeated NZ twice, including a great comeback win of 24 to 23 after being down by 23 to 5 with 13 mins left.
- Inflicted France's greatest ever loss (52 to 10)...and away from home.
- Inflicted Scotland's greatest ever loss (68 to 10)...and away rom home.
- Inflicted England's greatest ever home loss of 29 to 11.
- Inflicted Wales' greatest ever loss of 96 to 13.

The greatest ever losses were at the time of playing, but some of them still stand today. Also, the NZ and Aus teams were pretty strong then too - i.e. no gimme wins due to shocking coaches...like with the Bokke under Coetzee and Straeuli.
1998 was the worst All Black team in my living memory. 5 losses in a row.

They lost 5 in a row because there were no gimmes, as both SA and Oz were strong, plus the losses were very close. They had the same coach as the year before and after and they were undefeated in all other matches played in '98 and the whole of '97...and they won the TN again in '99. If memory serves, the back three at Kings Park in '98 consisted of Lomu, Vidori and Cullen...a fearsome back three.

mr bungle · Post by **mr bungle** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:16 am

Vleis wrote:
mr bungle wrote:
Vleis wrote:
J Man wrote:Best Springbok team I've seen is the 2009 side. Far better than both 07 and 19.
Post 1992 (readmission), there is an argument that the team from late '97 to late '98 was the best. They won 17 in a row, 10 away and 7 at home, including the following wins:
- Defeated Aus three times, including their greatest ever loss of 61 to 22.
- Defeated NZ twice, including a great comeback win of 24 to 23 after being down by 23 to 5 with 13 mins left.
- Inflicted France's greatest ever loss (52 to 10)...and away from home.
- Inflicted Scotland's greatest ever loss (68 to 10)...and away rom home.
- Inflicted England's greatest ever home loss of 29 to 11.
- Inflicted Wales' greatest ever loss of 96 to 13.

The greatest ever losses were at the time of playing, but some of them still stand today. Also, the NZ and Aus teams were pretty strong then too - i.e. no gimme wins due to shocking coaches...like with the Bokke under Coetzee and Straeuli.
1998 was the worst All Black team in my living memory. 5 losses in a row.
They lost 5 in a row because there were no gimmes, as both SA and Oz were strong, plus the losses were very close. They had the same coach as the year before and after and they were undefeated in all other matches played in '98 and the whole of '97...and they won the TN again in '99. If memory serves, the back three at Kings Park in '98 consisted of Lomu, Vidori and Cullen...a fearsome back three.

Fair points. 4 of the 5 losses featured Lomu, Wilson & Cullen. But that's an even stronger back 3. They weren't the issue.

Vleis · Post by **Vleis** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:20 am

naki wrote:But anyway, my off the dome top 10 (in no particular order)

- the 2010-15 back-to-backers: the greatest collection of players ever assembled and the most successful team of all time by basically any measure

- the ‘37-38 Boks: greatest team to ever tour NZ, followed it up with a series victory over the Lions

- the Invincibles

- the only-slightly Vincibles (the 51-52 Boks)

- the Originals

- the early 70s Lions who toured NZ and SA

- the early 90s Wallabies

- the early noughties English

- the late eighties All Blacks

- the Incomparables

I agree that there is a very strong argument for the 12 to 15 ABs to be anointed as the best of all time. A top 10 spot should also be a formality for the Wallaby team from mid-99 to late-01, as they won RWC 99, beat a very strong Lions team in 01 and won the TN's in 00 and 01.

mr bungle · Post by **mr bungle** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:21 am

That Wallaby team is one of my favourites. Some gut wrenching losses to them, but had a tonne of respect for that side

naki · Post by **naki** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:22 am

Vleis wrote:
naki wrote:But anyway, my off the dome top 10 (in no particular order)

- the 2010-15 back-to-backers: the greatest collection of players ever assembled and the most successful team of all time by basically any measure

- the ‘37-38 Boks: greatest team to ever tour NZ, followed it up with a series victory over the Lions

- the Invincibles

- the only-slightly Vincibles (the 51-52 Boks)

- the Originals

- the early 70s Lions who toured NZ and SA

- the early 90s Wallabies

- the early noughties English

- the late eighties All Blacks

- the Incomparables
I agreed that there is a very strong argument for the 12 to 15 ABs to be anointed as the best of all time. A top 10 spot should also be a formality for the Wallaby team from mid-99 to late-01, as they won RWC 99, beat a very strong Lions team in 01and won the TN's in 00 and 01.

Yes I was going to go for the late nineties Wobbs over the early nineties Wobbs, particularly as they held on to at least the ‘01 Lions. Perhaps just “the 90s Wallabies” as while there were fallow patches they were relatively consistent and some of those early 90s players traversed the whole decade

Magpie26 · Post by **Magpie26** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:22 am

Vleis wrote:
J Man wrote:Best Springbok team I've seen is the 2009 side. Far better than both 07 and 19.
Post 1992 (readmission), there is an argument that the team from late '97 to late '98 was the best. They won 17 in a row, 10 away and 7 at home, including the following wins:
- Defeated Aus three times, including their greatest ever loss of 61 to 22.
- Defeated NZ twice, including a great comeback win of 24 to 23 after being down by 23 to 5 with 13 mins left.
- Inflicted France's greatest ever loss (52 to 10)...and away from home.
- Inflicted Scotland's greatest ever loss (68 to 10)...and away rom home.
- Inflicted England's greatest ever home loss of 29 to 11.
- Inflicted Wales' greatest ever loss of 96 to 13.

The greatest ever losses were at the time of playing, but some of them still stand today. Also, the NZ and Aus teams were pretty strong then too - i.e. no gimme wins due to shocking coaches...like with the Bokke under Coetzee and Straeuli.

They were probably the best Bok side I can remember too, but not sure about the bolded part, NZ were dreadful in 98 arguably our worst ever team

naki · Post by **naki** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:25 am

Seneca of the Night wrote:
naki wrote:But anyway, my off the dome top 10 (in no particular order)

- the 2010-15 back-to-backers: the greatest collection of players ever assembled and the most successful team of all time by basically any measure

- the ‘37-38 Boks: greatest team to ever tour NZ, followed it up with a series victory over the Lions

- the Invincibles

- the only-slightly Vincibles (the 51-52 Boks)

- the Originals

- the early 70s Lions who toured NZ and SA

- the early 90s Wallabies

- the early noughties English

- the late eighties All Blacks

- the Incomparables
Good list - you've left out the 65-69 ABs and I really don't see how they can be left out. Really hard to know who to push out and although I'm tempted to knock out the poms it has to be another AB team for fairness, so it will be the Incomparables. I wonder if a space for early mid 70s French could be found too. I suspect there's room for about 15 teams in a top ranking list.

Just ran out of room, yes. If you had to you'd probably kick the Incomparables out for Needles late 60s team