Planet Rugby Forum

Thought i would start this thread rather than polute the Scottish rugby one as there is now so much going on with questions needing to be answered. Also dont need the deflection from the Boris shitshow either that has its own healthy thread.

Couple of articles in todays Times I found interesting:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the- ... -zc895whgs
The more worrying one for me is what on earth is going on with this sort of brainwashing and STV are meant to be independent.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scot ... -pgc9pvxfd

Nailing my colours to the mast here: I'm pro-independence, VERY pro-EU membership given my personal Dutch-Scottish hybrid state and would normally vote SNP, who I think have been fairly competent in most areas of government for the past decade, and easily outshine the shower of shyte down south (an admittedly very low bar at the moment).

I am, at the same time, deeply suspicious of the direction of travel of the SNP as it has increasingly become a cult of personality around Sturgeon. It also seems happy to pursue a scorched earth policy around Brexit - let everything go horribly wrong and surely then we'll have that nice comfy majority we need in order to win an independence vote. At the same time, they seem hopelessly naive in their belief that any Westminster Government will play nice and respect constitutional law with regard to allowing a referendum at some point in the future - that one truly has me stumped.

Just so you know where I am coming from if I make a contribution to this thread.

That STV thing is bizzare- what were they thinking?

clydecloggie wrote:Nailing my colours to the mast here: I'm pro-independence, VERY pro-EU membership given my personal Dutch-Scottish hybrid state and would normally vote SNP, who I think have been fairly competent in most areas of government for the past decade, and easily outshine the shower of shyte down south (an admittedly very low bar at the moment).

I am, at the same time, deeply suspicious of the direction of travel of the SNP as it has increasingly become a cult of personality around Sturgeon. It also seems happy to pursue a scorched earth policy around Brexit - let everything go horribly wrong and surely then we'll have that nice comfy majority we need in order to win an independence vote. At the same time, they seem hopelessly naive in their belief that any Westminster Government will play nice and respect constitutional law with regard to allowing a referendum at some point in the future - that one truly has me stumped.

Just so you know where I am coming from if I make a contribution to this thread.

It's well known where my sympathies lie and for me it's all about economics which is why Indy is a non-starter for me, it just doesnt stack up but those arguments have all been had and little point in rehashing them as opinions wont be changed on that now.

It's the highlighted bit that I think is wrong now when you look after 13 years they are now tired, old with increasing levels of cronyism.

Schools/education is firmly in reverse and it's a scandel that the review has been pushed until after next years election. this was done pre-covid.

Economy, it is just a disaster area for the SNP, it's an afterthought to them now, tbf under Salmond they were far better but with the ferries, Prestwick etc it is a shambles, we continue to lag the rest of the UK on every metric here and only have the level of public service we do through Barnett.

Health has the kids hospital in Edinburgh, waiting times getting longer and there was that mess in Glasgow as well, that's before we even discuss some of the COVID failings from us being miles behind in testing or pumping pateients out of hospitals into care homes without testing to see if they are COVID free.

But yes the more worrying trend is cult of personality around Sturgeon.

Greens could be an option for you if you are Indy minded and worried about the SNP.

Caley_Red wrote:That STV thing is bizzare- what were they thinking?

Very creepy, all rather Hilter youth type stuff. Also shows how much they control the media up here.

I can't see the Times articles in full cos paywall. But what I can see of one article is hilarious:

"The independent broadcaster posted the series of clips on Twitter yesterday before swiftly removing it after complaints and comparisons to coverage from totalitarian countries such as North Korea.

The video features young boys and girls lauding the first minister for her handling of the Covid-19 crisis.

Apparently reading from a script, they say: “The children of Scotland would like to say thank you to Nicola, our first minister. We are so grateful. Thank you for always keeping us safe, working so hard, being strong for us.”

That truly is Kim Jong-un stuff.

For the record, I have no objection to Scottish independence so long as it's not gerrymandered and thereby creates a state of violent conflict within Scotland.

Lord Denning wrote:I can't see the Times articles in full cos paywall. But what I can see of one article is hilarious:

"The independent broadcaster posted the series of clips on Twitter yesterday before swiftly removing it after complaints and comparisons to coverage from totalitarian countries such as North Korea.

The video features young boys and girls lauding the first minister for her handling of the Covid-19 crisis.

Apparently reading from a script, they say: “The children of Scotland would like to say thank you to Nicola, our first minister. We are so grateful. Thank you for always keeping us safe, working so hard, being strong for us.”

That truly is Kim Jong-un stuff.

For the record, I have no objection to Scottish independence so long as it's not gerrymandered and thereby creates a state of violent conflict within Scotland.

That would never happen

iarmhiman wrote:

Lord Denning wrote:I can't see the Times articles in full cos paywall. But what I can see of one article is hilarious:

"The independent broadcaster posted the series of clips on Twitter yesterday before swiftly removing it after complaints and comparisons to coverage from totalitarian countries such as North Korea.

The video features young boys and girls lauding the first minister for her handling of the Covid-19 crisis.

Apparently reading from a script, they say: “The children of Scotland would like to say thank you to Nicola, our first minister. We are so grateful. Thank you for always keeping us safe, working so hard, being strong for us.”

That truly is Kim Jong-un stuff.

For the record, I have no objection to Scottish independence so long as it's not gerrymandered and thereby creates a state of violent conflict within Scotland.

That would never happen

I hope not. But forecasting's difficult these days.

Lorthern Nights wrote:

Caley_Red wrote:That STV thing is bizzare- what were they thinking?

Very creepy, all rather Hilter youth type stuff. Also shows how much they control the media up here.

I would say the only media which the SNP control is The National newspaper. The rest, I just don't agree.

And Hitler youth, that's quite the comparison LN! Have you consumed more than your allotted rowies this morning?

dargotronV.1 wrote:

Lorthern Nights wrote:

Caley_Red wrote:That STV thing is bizzare- what were they thinking?

Very creepy, all rather Hilter youth type stuff. Also shows how much they control the media up here.

I would say the only media which the SNP control is The National newspaper. The rest, I just don't agree.

And Hitler youth, that's quite the comparison LN! Have you consumed more than your allotted rowies this morning?

Yeah, it's hilarious that people think the SNP gets an easy ride from the media in Scotland. They're all massively pro Union, never pressured wee ruthie, just parroted her lines and now barely asking questions of the Scottish Tories going completely silent for the last few days. And so many of the BBC news staff have heavy links into Scottish labour.

I'm pro Scotland having another independence vote and for there to be a set minimum period before they can vote again if they do not vote to leave. This is the right thing to do as the SNPs
raison d'être means they will start agitating for another vote as soon as they lose. That is no good for the stability of the UK.

dargotronV.1 wrote:

Lorthern Nights wrote:

Caley_Red wrote:That STV thing is bizzare- what were they thinking?

Very creepy, all rather Hilter youth type stuff. Also shows how much they control the media up here.

I would say the only media which the SNP control is The National newspaper. The rest, I just don't agree.

And Hitler youth, that's quite the comparison LN! Have you consumed more than your allotted rowies this morning?

Nope and you have to be completely blind not to see it. Hitler didnt go straight to concentration camps and no i'm not saying the SNP will end up gassing people but this shite with the kids is the start of a dangerous path.

And Biffer she does get an easy ride, there is very little challenge to their ineptitude in comparison to the hounding that Boris and his merry bunch get. Sturgeon has the questions presented to her prior to the daily briefing and doesnt allow any follow-up questions, she controls the narrative, the media play along with her nicely prepared script so she looks the gifted presenter.

Anonymous. wrote:I'm pro Scotland having another independence vote and for there to be a set minimum period before they can vote again if they do not vote to leave. This is the right thing to do as the SNPs
raison d'être means they will start agitating for another vote as soon as they lose. That is no good for the stability of the UK.

That is my stance. As in there shouldn't be another vote for many decades and Scotland should deal with the costs of independence or the countries should be further integrated if they stay.

eldanielfire wrote:

Anonymous. wrote:I'm pro Scotland having another independence vote and for there to be a set minimum period before they can vote again if they do not vote to leave. This is the right thing to do as the SNPs
raison d'être means they will start agitating for another vote as soon as they lose. That is no good for the stability of the UK.

That is my stance. As in there shouldn't be another vote for many decades and Scotland should deal with the costs of independence or the countries should be further integrated if they stay.

There’s a lot of sense in that, as there is in the two countries being politically merged, geography and all. But as an Englishman I can see the itch for the Scots to break away and I respect that.

The only problem I see is that nationalist politics is inherently unpleasant and that if dishonest voices start to run the show, many people suffer. The dishonesty applies to all sides by the way.

Interesting post Lorthern, I hear similar often and thought I might explore a little for my own education.

Lorthern Nights wrote: It's the highlighted bit that I think is wrong now when you look after 13 years they are now tired, old with increasing levels of cronyism.

That one is difficult to agree or disagree with. It doesn't feel to me that the turnover within the SNP is any different to any other major political party. With specific regard to cronyism, do you have anyone in mind? Politicians will naturally appoint their 'mates' to cabinet as they are clearly their biggest supporters. This is the same in every government as much as I can see...?

Lorthern Nights wrote: Schools/education is firmly in reverse and it's a scandel that the review has been pushed until after next years election. this was done pre-covid.

Do you have any stats for this. Looking at the official stats (https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics ... Dashboards) it appears over the past 10 years that:
*The number leaving to higher education has increased (34.2% --> 39.0%)
*The number leaving to further education has decreased (24.3% --> 22.7%)
*The number leaving to employment has increased (23.0% --> 28.3%)
*The number unemployed seeking has decreased (12.0% --> 3.9%)


These all seem positive outcomes except the number seeking further education, which has slipped, however that could be due to the increase in higher education outcomes.

In terms of attainment, the number leaving with 1+ SCQF5 has risen from 77.1% to 85.9%. Again, this seems a positive outcome.

I would agree that there seems to be a worsening situation amongst those left behind, with the number of people with no qualifications at all reducing from 19.1% - 11.6%.

Lorthern Nights wrote: Economy, it is just a disaster area for the SNP, it's an afterthought to them now, tbf under Salmond they were far better but with the ferries, Prestwick etc it is a shambles, we continue to lag the rest of the UK on every metric here and only have the level of public service we do through Barnett.

I think I'm right in saying you are somewhat of an expert here, so I don't think I will offer an opinion. How does the Scottish rate of growth compared to rUK, presumably unfavourably?

Lorthern Nights wrote: Health has the kids hospital in Edinburgh, waiting times getting longer and there was that mess in Glasgow as well, that's before we even discuss some of the COVID failings from us being miles behind in testing or pumping pateients out of hospitals into care homes without testing to see if they are COVID free.

The quality of care indicator in the Scottish NHS has declined over the past decade which is worrying, although not surprising given the cuts to NHS Scotland budgets. It's difficult to find stats on wait times but I for instance the A&E wait time has declined over the last 5 years with 89% of people seen within 4 hours where in 2015 it was 93%. Prior to that I cannot find stats. You would think there would be a single generalised wait time stat for simple comparison but if there is it is not easy to find.

Provision of easy to find a use statistics

Not one you raised, but wow what a confused mess. There appear to be multiple sources for statistics all over the place with a huge range of KPIs for each area measured over different time periods and in different ways. It really should be easier to access and understand performance to judge our government more easily.

Lorthern Nights wrote: But yes the more worrying trend is cult of personality around Sturgeon.

I can understand this and agree to a certain extent, although I think my experience of this is very much social media based where everything is black or white. Her followers appear rabid and will not countenance any critics and will fabricate and lie on any issue to take her side. However, the other side is equally rabid, with the anti-SNP brigade lying and fabricating just as much. I do think she suffers generally in the print media though, where with the obvious exclusion of the National, all are anti-independence if not necessarily anti-SNP.

Generally I don't see anything there that is particularly concerning nor anything that convinces me the rUK is doing much better than Scotland.

Cards on the table, I am pro-independence. My own thinking is based on the following:
* I am very pro-EU and want to remain an EU citizen
* I believe in more local determination and believe that an independent Scotland would be able to take more decisions that are right for it's citizens. The UK, as it is right to do, takes decisions that align with what is best for the majority. Unfortunately I think this is often to the benefit of the South East and the detriment of Scotland.
* I hugely dislike the vestiges of feudalism and historical anachronisms that abound within the UK. Royalty, peerages, the House of Lords - all of that needs to get in the Sea in my opinion. I believe an independent Scotland can rid itself of much of this and become a modern nation
* I believe the political landscape of Scotland and England in particular are hugely different. England is a very conservative society whereas Scotland is very liberal. I am not left wing, but I am certainly liberal and probably most closely align to old liberal democrat politics (although I would not vote for the current shower of no-hopers). I believe in business and the need to create an environment where businesses large and small can survive and flourish, but I also strongly believe in social justice where a poor start in life should not condemn you to the scrap heap. I believe my politics would be allowed space to breath in an independent Scotland while I believe they are stifled within the UK by the conservative majority.
* I think the shift in foreign policy priorities an independent Scotland would have would move us away from power projection and towards actually helping our own people (i.e. reduction in military spend both CAPEX and OPEX, less military adventurism, more social wellbeing spending)

There are other reasons too, but these are some of the key ones that immediately spring to mind.

Alba wrote:Interesting post Lorthern, I hear similar often and thought I might explore a little for my own education.

Lorthern Nights wrote: It's the highlighted bit that I think is wrong now when you look after 13 years they are now tired, old with increasing levels of cronyism.

That one is difficult to agree or disagree with. It doesn't feel to me that the turnover within the SNP is any different to any other major political party. With specific regard to cronyism, do you have anyone in mind? Politicians will naturally appoint their 'mates' to cabinet as they are clearly their biggest supporters. This is the same in every government as much as I can see...?

Lorthern Nights wrote: Schools/education is firmly in reverse and it's a scandel that the review has been pushed until after next years election. this was done pre-covid.

Do you have any stats for this. Looking at the official stats (https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics ... Dashboards) it appears over the past 10 years that:
*The number leaving to higher education has increased (34.2% --> 39.0%)
*The number leaving to further education has decreased (24.3% --> 22.7%)
*The number leaving to employment has increased (23.0% --> 28.3%)
*The number unemployed seeking has decreased (12.0% --> 3.9%)


These all seem positive outcomes except the number seeking further education, which has slipped, however that could be due to the increase in higher education outcomes.

In terms of attainment, the number leaving with 1+ SCQF5 has risen from 77.1% to 85.9%. Again, this seems a positive outcome.

I would agree that there seems to be a worsening situation amongst those left behind, with the number of people with no qualifications at all reducing from 19.1% - 11.6%.

Lorthern Nights wrote: Economy, it is just a disaster area for the SNP, it's an afterthought to them now, tbf under Salmond they were far better but with the ferries, Prestwick etc it is a shambles, we continue to lag the rest of the UK on every metric here and only have the level of public service we do through Barnett.

I think I'm right in saying you are somewhat of an expert here, so I don't think I will offer an opinion. How does the Scottish rate of growth compared to rUK, presumably unfavourably?

Lorthern Nights wrote: Health has the kids hospital in Edinburgh, waiting times getting longer and there was that mess in Glasgow as well, that's before we even discuss some of the COVID failings from us being miles behind in testing or pumping pateients out of hospitals into care homes without testing to see if they are COVID free.

The quality of care indicator in the Scottish NHS has declined over the past decade which is worrying, although not surprising given the cuts to NHS Scotland budgets. It's difficult to find stats on wait times but I for instance the A&E wait time has declined over the last 5 years with 89% of people seen within 4 hours where in 2015 it was 93%. Prior to that I cannot find stats. You would think there would be a single generalised wait time stat for simple comparison but if there is it is not easy to find.

Provision of easy to find a use statistics

Not one you raised, but wow what a confused mess. There appear to be multiple sources for statistics all over the place with a huge range of KPIs for each area measured over different time periods and in different ways. It really should be easier to access and understand performance to judge our government more easily.

Lorthern Nights wrote: But yes the more worrying trend is cult of personality around Sturgeon.

I can understand this and agree to a certain extent, although I think my experience of this is very much social media based where everything is black or white. Her followers appear rabid and will not countenance any critics and will fabricate and lie on any issue to take her side. However, the other side is equally rabid, with the anti-SNP brigade lying and fabricating just as much. I do think she suffers generally in the print media though, where with the obvious exclusion of the National, all are anti-independence if not necessarily anti-SNP.

Generally I don't see anything there that is particularly concerning nor anything that convinces me the rUK is doing much better than Scotland.

Cards on the table, I am pro-independence. My own thinking is based on the following:
* I am very pro-EU and want to remain an EU citizen
* I believe in more local determination and believe that an independent Scotland would be able to take more decisions that are right for it's citizens. The UK, as it is right to do, takes decisions that align with what is best for the majority. Unfortunately I think this is often to the benefit of the South East and the detriment of Scotland.
* I hugely dislike the vestiges of feudalism and historical anachronisms that abound within the UK. Royalty, peerages, the House of Lords - all of that needs to get in the Sea in my opinion. I believe an independent Scotland can rid itself of much of this and become a modern nation
* I believe the political landscape of Scotland and England in particular are hugely different. England is a very conservative society whereas Scotland is very liberal. I am not left wing, but I am certainly liberal and probably most closely align to old liberal democrat politics (although I would not vote for the current shower of no-hopers). I believe in business and the need to create an environment where businesses large and small can survive and flourish, but I also strongly believe in social justice where a poor start in life should not condemn you to the scrap heap. I believe my politics would be allowed space to breath in an independent Scotland while I believe they are stifled within the UK by the conservative majority.
* I think the shift in foreign policy priorities an independent Scotland would have would move us away from power projection and towards actually helping our own people (i.e. reduction in military spend both CAPEX and OPEX, less military adventurism, more social wellbeing spending)

There are other reasons too, but these are some of the key ones that immediately spring to mind.

Really? Scotland is a "very liberal" country? I doubt that. It has been run by the Labour party, and subsequently the SNP, for decades, but that doesn't make it 'liberal'.

Good luck to the independence point of view, but let's not tell porkies in the process.

Lorthern Nights wrote:

dargotronV.1 wrote:

Lorthern Nights wrote:

Caley_Red wrote:That STV thing is bizzare- what were they thinking?

Very creepy, all rather Hilter youth type stuff. Also shows how much they control the media up here.

I would say the only media which the SNP control is The National newspaper. The rest, I just don't agree.

And Hitler youth, that's quite the comparison LN! Have you consumed more than your allotted rowies this morning?

Nope and you have to be completely blind not to see it. Hitler didnt go straight to concentration camps and no i'm not saying the SNP will end up gassing people but this shite with the kids is the start of a dangerous path.

And Biffer she does get an easy ride, there is very little challenge to their ineptitude in comparison to the hounding that Boris and his merry bunch get. Sturgeon has the questions presented to her prior to the daily briefing and doesnt allow any follow-up questions, she controls the narrative, the media play along with her nicely prepared script so she looks the gifted presenter.

Of course the video is cringe but can we agree that making references to the SNP gassing people or concentration camps is at its best unhelpful and not remotely the situation we currently find ourselves in?

My eyesight is just fine thanks. Though to be sure I'm going to take the kids on an hour long drive.

Lord Denning wrote:
Really? Scotland is a "very liberal" country? I doubt that. It has been run by the Labour party, and subsequently the SNP, for decades, but that doesn't make it 'liberal'.

Good luck to the independence point of view, but let's not tell porkies in the process.

Ah come on, I took the time to lay out my reasoning, the least you could do is explain why you think I’m wrong rather than just call me a liar.

Scotland hasn’t returned a conservative majority in living memory and barely has a functioning right wing at all. Scotland swung heavily for centre right New Labour. Scotland swung heavily for centre right Salmond SNP and remained heavily SNP when the party became centre left under Sturgeon. I’m not aware of Scotland ever electing a socialist in recent memory, not any other far left member. Clearly to me at least Scotland is liberal in the sense it is centrist.

In terms of actual politics, Scotland is pro-democracy, pro-capitalism (to the extent any European nation is but not to the extent the US is), pro-equality, pro-freedom of speech, (sectarianism accepted) pro-freedom of religious expression. That is what most define as liberal.

That is what most define as liberal.

It isn’t.

And now your thread is ruined .

bimboman wrote:

That is what most define as liberal.

It isn’t.

Fair enough, happy to stand corrected. What do most people define as liberal?

Alba wrote:

Lord Denning wrote:
Really? Scotland is a "very liberal" country? I doubt that. It has been run by the Labour party, and subsequently the SNP, for decades, but that doesn't make it 'liberal'.

Good luck to the independence point of view, but let's not tell porkies in the process.

Ah come on, I took the time to lay out my reasoning, the least you could do is explain why you think I’m wrong rather than just call me a liar.

Scotland hasn’t returned a conservative majority in living memory and barely has a functioning right wing at all. Scotland swung heavily for centre right New Labour. Scotland swung heavily for centre right Salmond SNP and remained heavily SNP when the party became centre left under Sturgeon. I’m not aware of Scotland ever electing a socialist in recent memory, not any other far left member. Clearly to me at least Scotland is liberal in the sense it is centrist.

In terms of actual politics, Scotland is pro-democracy, pro-capitalism (to the extent any European nation is but not to the extent the US is), pro-equality, pro-freedom of speech, (sectarianism accepted) pro-freedom of religious expression. That is what most define as liberal.

Scotland is no more committed to democracy, liberal capitalism or freedom of speech or equality than England is. Scotland is not an especially or even noticeably liberal country. It voted consistently for left wing, or nationalist, politicians, but not for anything distinctly liberal.

And it killed Labour in Scotland, and the LibDems, just as it killed the Tories. What’s ‘liberal’ about that, even in party political terms?

Not saying the position is correct or not, but I was talking to a Scottish girl I know recently who wouldn’t move back to Scotland for the very reason that it isn’t as liberal as England. Granted she lives in London, but that’s still England

my 2 cents wrote:Not saying the position is correct or not, but I was talking to a Scottish girl I know recently who wouldn’t move back to Scotland for the very reason that it isn’t as liberal as England. Granted she lives in London, but that’s still England

Well that’s me persuaded.

frillage wrote:

my 2 cents wrote:Not saying the position is correct or not, but I was talking to a Scottish girl I know recently who wouldn’t move back to Scotland for the very reason that it isn’t as liberal as England. Granted she lives in London, but that’s still England

Well that’s me persuaded.

I’m glad.

Lord Denning wrote:

Alba wrote:

Lord Denning wrote:
Really? Scotland is a "very liberal" country? I doubt that. It has been run by the Labour party, and subsequently the SNP, for decades, but that doesn't make it 'liberal'.

Good luck to the independence point of view, but let's not tell porkies in the process.

Ah come on, I took the time to lay out my reasoning, the least you could do is explain why you think I’m wrong rather than just call me a liar.

Scotland hasn’t returned a conservative majority in living memory and barely has a functioning right wing at all. Scotland swung heavily for centre right New Labour. Scotland swung heavily for centre right Salmond SNP and remained heavily SNP when the party became centre left under Sturgeon. I’m not aware of Scotland ever electing a socialist in recent memory, not any other far left member. Clearly to me at least Scotland is liberal in the sense it is centrist.

In terms of actual politics, Scotland is pro-democracy, pro-capitalism (to the extent any European nation is but not to the extent the US is), pro-equality, pro-freedom of speech, (sectarianism accepted) pro-freedom of religious expression. That is what most define as liberal.

Scotland is no more committed to democracy, liberal capitalism or freedom of speech or equality than England is. Scotland is not an especially or even noticeably liberal country. It voted consistently for left wing, or nationalist, politicians, but not for anything distinctly liberal.

And it killed Labour in Scotland, and the LibDems, just as it killed the Tories. What’s ‘liberal’ about that, even in party political terms?

The SNP are civic nationalists, a form of liberalism. They aren’t nationalists like the BNP. That they supplanted other parties who may or may not be liberal themselves is neither here nor there. Political liberalism doesn’t stretch to declining a majority when it is earned.

You haven’t tried to defend your stupid claims about Scottish economic or social liberalism.

They aren’t nationalists like the BNP.

Without denying the base truth that the SNP aren’t as loathsome as the BNP, why are you so sure that the nationalist impulses of the SNP are inevitably benign? I don’t say that the SNP is a naturally odious outfit, but it does follow a long and undistinguished line of European nationalist movements.

my 2 cents wrote:Not saying the position is correct or not, but I was talking to a Scottish girl I know recently who wouldn’t move back to Scotland for the very reason that it isn’t as liberal as England. Granted she lives in London, but that’s still England

rule one...

Lord Denning wrote:You haven’t tried to defend your stupid claims about Scottish economic or social liberalism.

They aren’t nationalists like the BNP.

Without denying the base truth that the SNP aren’t as loathsome as the BNP, why are you so sure that the nationalist impulses of the SNP are inevitably benign? I don’t say that the SNP is a naturally odious outfit, but it does follow a long and undistinguished line of European nationalist movements.

Aren’t you a lovely chap. You’ve produced the square root of feck all to support any of your posts, you’ve just thrown around insults. Fudge off you time wasting child.

Lord Denning wrote:You haven’t tried to defend your stupid claims about Scottish economic or social liberalism.

They aren’t nationalists like the BNP.

Without denying the base truth that the SNP aren’t as loathsome as the BNP, why are you so sure that the nationalist impulses of the SNP are inevitably benign? I don’t say that the SNP is a naturally odious outfit, but it does follow a long and undistinguished line of European nationalist movements.

How does it follow them, except chronologically?

Alba wrote:

Lord Denning wrote:You haven’t tried to defend your stupid claims about Scottish economic or social liberalism.

They aren’t nationalists like the BNP.

Without denying the base truth that the SNP aren’t as loathsome as the BNP, why are you so sure that the nationalist impulses of the SNP are inevitably benign? I don’t say that the SNP is a naturally odious outfit, but it does follow a long and undistinguished line of European nationalist movements.

Aren’t you a lovely chap. You’ve produced the square root of feck all to support any of your posts, you’ve just thrown around insults. Fudge off you time wasting child.

Ok. Scots Nats.

Alba wrote:Interesting post Lorthern, I hear similar often and thought I might explore a little for my own education.

Lorthern Nights wrote: It's the highlighted bit that I think is wrong now when you look after 13 years they are now tired, old with increasing levels of cronyism.

That one is difficult to agree or disagree with. It doesn't feel to me that the turnover within the SNP is any different to any other major political party. With specific regard to cronyism, do you have anyone in mind? Politicians will naturally appoint their 'mates' to cabinet as they are clearly their biggest supporters. This is the same in every government as much as I can see...?

Lorthern Nights wrote: Schools/education is firmly in reverse and it's a scandel that the review has been pushed until after next years election. this was done pre-covid.

Do you have any stats for this. Looking at the official stats (https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics ... Dashboards) it appears over the past 10 years that:
*The number leaving to higher education has increased (34.2% --> 39.0%)
*The number leaving to further education has decreased (24.3% --> 22.7%)
*The number leaving to employment has increased (23.0% --> 28.3%)
*The number unemployed seeking has decreased (12.0% --> 3.9%)


These all seem positive outcomes except the number seeking further education, which has slipped, however that could be due to the increase in higher education outcomes.

In terms of attainment, the number leaving with 1+ SCQF5 has risen from 77.1% to 85.9%. Again, this seems a positive outcome.

I would agree that there seems to be a worsening situation amongst those left behind, with the number of people with no qualifications at all reducing from 19.1% - 11.6%.

Lorthern Nights wrote: Economy, it is just a disaster area for the SNP, it's an afterthought to them now, tbf under Salmond they were far better but with the ferries, Prestwick etc it is a shambles, we continue to lag the rest of the UK on every metric here and only have the level of public service we do through Barnett.

I think I'm right in saying you are somewhat of an expert here, so I don't think I will offer an opinion. How does the Scottish rate of growth compared to rUK, presumably unfavourably?

Lorthern Nights wrote: Health has the kids hospital in Edinburgh, waiting times getting longer and there was that mess in Glasgow as well, that's before we even discuss some of the COVID failings from us being miles behind in testing or pumping pateients out of hospitals into care homes without testing to see if they are COVID free.

The quality of care indicator in the Scottish NHS has declined over the past decade which is worrying, although not surprising given the cuts to NHS Scotland budgets. It's difficult to find stats on wait times but I for instance the A&E wait time has declined over the last 5 years with 89% of people seen within 4 hours where in 2015 it was 93%. Prior to that I cannot find stats. You would think there would be a single generalised wait time stat for simple comparison but if there is it is not easy to find.

Provision of easy to find a use statistics

Not one you raised, but wow what a confused mess. There appear to be multiple sources for statistics all over the place with a huge range of KPIs for each area measured over different time periods and in different ways. It really should be easier to access and understand performance to judge our government more easily.

Lorthern Nights wrote: But yes the more worrying trend is cult of personality around Sturgeon.

I can understand this and agree to a certain extent, although I think my experience of this is very much social media based where everything is black or white. Her followers appear rabid and will not countenance any critics and will fabricate and lie on any issue to take her side. However, the other side is equally rabid, with the anti-SNP brigade lying and fabricating just as much. I do think she suffers generally in the print media though, where with the obvious exclusion of the National, all are anti-independence if not necessarily anti-SNP.

Generally I don't see anything there that is particularly concerning nor anything that convinces me the rUK is doing much better than Scotland.

Cards on the table, I am pro-independence. My own thinking is based on the following:
* I am very pro-EU and want to remain an EU citizen
* I believe in more local determination and believe that an independent Scotland would be able to take more decisions that are right for it's citizens. The UK, as it is right to do, takes decisions that align with what is best for the majority. Unfortunately I think this is often to the benefit of the South East and the detriment of Scotland.
* I hugely dislike the vestiges of feudalism and historical anachronisms that abound within the UK. Royalty, peerages, the House of Lords - all of that needs to get in the Sea in my opinion. I believe an independent Scotland can rid itself of much of this and become a modern nation
* I believe the political landscape of Scotland and England in particular are hugely different. England is a very conservative society whereas Scotland is very liberal. I am not left wing, but I am certainly liberal and probably most closely align to old liberal democrat politics (although I would not vote for the current shower of no-hopers). I believe in business and the need to create an environment where businesses large and small can survive and flourish, but I also strongly believe in social justice where a poor start in life should not condemn you to the scrap heap. I believe my politics would be allowed space to breath in an independent Scotland while I believe they are stifled within the UK by the conservative majority.
* I think the shift in foreign policy priorities an independent Scotland would have would move us away from power projection and towards actually helping our own people (i.e. reduction in military spend both CAPEX and OPEX, less military adventurism, more social wellbeing spending)

There are other reasons too, but these are some of the key ones that immediately spring to mind.

On education, I think the main concern is that Scotland’s standards have declined in comparison with other countries. Before the SNP took over, Scotland’s educational standards were the best in the UK, but in recent years they have fallen behind England and NI, and now only match the OECD average. Although the latest PISA assessment showed an improvement in reading, Scottish students’ performance in maths and science had declined further.

Lord Denning wrote:You haven’t tried to defend your stupid claims about Scottish economic or social liberalism.

They aren’t nationalists like the BNP.

Without denying the base truth that the SNP aren’t as loathsome as the BNP, why are you so sure that the nationalist impulses of the SNP are inevitably benign? I don’t say that the SNP is a naturally odious outfit, but it does follow a long and undistinguished line of European nationalist movements.

All nationalists believe fundamentally they are better than “others” the reasons for the SNP believing that are a mystery to be honest.

One thing that has struck me is that pro-independence folk consider the 2014 campaign a joyous, vibrant time, whereas almost all the unionists I know found it a painful, divisive, dark experience. I wonder do pro-indy folk ever consider why? There were numerous reports of graffiti, threats even violence at the time, pro-indy folk are always quick to point to extremists on the union side as if to say everyone was doing it. But I just don't believe that. I know one or two prominent-ish pro-indy voices who have in recent years disagreed on some aspect of Scottish Nationalism and felt the full brunt of the cybernat onslaught, it has shaken them and made them reconsider the 2014 experiences of those who faced that onslaught back then.
In a small way I saw it locally. Living in a rural setting, every election the few lamp-posts around are festooned with election boards of every party. They are never touched, no vandalism, nothing. It struck me as strange that during the lead up to 2014 No signs were rare. In an area that in the end actually voted No, there was only ever Yes signs. I spoke with a local No campaigner. He had put up in excess of 150 posters, none had lasted more than 24 hours. I found this out myself with a no-sign I erected in a field on our farm, erected, trashed, repaired, trashed & so on. It wasn't the odd sign, every single No sign was trashed immediately, while yes signs faded in the sun untouched. When I mentioned this our a local SNP member he thought it was all a big laugh, it never occurred to him what this represented for free speech and civil debate. To me it points to a darkness under the thin veneer of "civic nationalism". Walking the high street of our local town I was met with a big crowd of Yes folks at a table carrying my flag - the saltire - who quite frankly looked at me with hatred and disgust when I dared mentioned I was pro-union. A discussion soon turned into me being surrounded and berated by several activists. Most folk just kept their heads down for a bit of peace and I can understand why. The prospect of yet another divisive referendum after the two we've had fills me with foreboding. I can think of virtually nothing as regressive as that for the country I love.

Yer Man wrote:

my 2 cents wrote:Not saying the position is correct or not, but I was talking to a Scottish girl I know recently who wouldn’t move back to Scotland for the very reason that it isn’t as liberal as England. Granted she lives in London, but that’s still England

rule one...

Don’t have a photo so will try with keyboard

:^/-8-><

my 2 cents wrote:

Yer Man wrote:

my 2 cents wrote:Not saying the position is correct or not, but I was talking to a Scottish girl I know recently who wouldn’t move back to Scotland for the very reason that it isn’t as liberal as England. Granted she lives in London, but that’s still England

rule one...

Don’t have a photo so will try with keyboard

:^/-8-><

Is that hot or not? Clare Grogan or Susan Boyle?

Lord Denning wrote:

my 2 cents wrote:

Yer Man wrote:

my 2 cents wrote:Not saying the position is correct or not, but I was talking to a Scottish girl I know recently who wouldn’t move back to Scotland for the very reason that it isn’t as liberal as England. Granted she lives in London, but that’s still England

rule one...

Don’t have a photo so will try with keyboard

:^/-8-><

Is that hot or not? Clare Grogan or Susan Boyle?

More grogan. Should probably post on the ‘fall in love you lose’ thread

Not that I’ve frequented it

my 2 cents wrote:

Lord Denning wrote:

my 2 cents wrote:

Yer Man wrote:

my 2 cents wrote:Not saying the position is correct or not, but I was talking to a Scottish girl I know recently who wouldn’t move back to Scotland for the very reason that it isn’t as liberal as England. Granted she lives in London, but that’s still England

rule one...

Don’t have a photo so will try with keyboard

:^/-8-><

Is that hot or not? Clare Grogan or Susan Boyle?

More grogan. Should probably post on the ‘fall in love you lose’ thread

Ta. Mmmm.

Northern Lights.

If you felt Scotland could succeed economically making its own laws and policy as an independent entity, would you support Scottish independence? Or are you a unionist regardless?