SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Frequent Flyer »

Big if true

Makes sense

Nobody should have to deal with that amount of jet lag
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DraadkarD
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by DraadkarD »

Ali's Choice wrote:
Clogs wrote:Because even more SA kids can head over to get paid in Europe straight from the school system than get locked into the academies in SA. Far more opportunities, bigger pool better boks playing with and against fellow boks in the same comp.
Yes, that will be a great opportunity for young Saffers to earn money as teenagers. But whilst they are being recruited straight from school, to learn their craft in the inferior Welsh, Scottish and Italian academy programs, the best Kiwi players will continue to develop and blossom in NZ's world class systems.

Will they develop and blossom for free? Cutting the viewership by 80% might cause some "budget" issues.

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Ali's Choice
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Ali's Choice »

Frequent Flyer wrote:Big if true

Makes sense

Nobody should have to deal with that amount of jet lag
A question for South African Rugby fans, will there be any unintended consequences associated with SA teams joining the Pro 18? Your club/franchise pro-Rugby season will effectively run from September to the end of May. I know the Cheetahs and Kings have been involved for a season and a half already, but how will Rugby fare as a summer sport in South Africa?
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Ali's Choice
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Ali's Choice »

DraadkarD wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Clogs wrote:Because even more SA kids can head over to get paid in Europe straight from the school system than get locked into the academies in SA. Far more opportunities, bigger pool better boks playing with and against fellow boks in the same comp.
Yes, that will be a great opportunity for young Saffers to earn money as teenagers. But whilst they are being recruited straight from school, to learn their craft in the inferior Welsh, Scottish and Italian academy programs, the best Kiwi players will continue to develop and blossom in NZ's world class systems.

Will they develop and blossom for free? Cutting the viewership by 80% might cause some "budget" issues.

Image
You're not still, at this late stage, trying to pretend that South African money keeps NZ and Australia afloat, are you? Your players earned a tiny fraction of what our's did. The game has always been poor in your country. Because despite having more people watching Rugby in SA, most of them earn less than USD$1 per day.
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Lemoentjie
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Lemoentjie »

:roll: The majority of the people paying for supersport and other SR related services or items aren't those earning very little money. Don't forget there's almost as many whites in SA (a small minority of the population) as the whole population in New Zealand. And average wages are much higher than your uninformed claims
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mr bungle
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by mr bungle »

Lemoentjie wrote::roll: The majority of the people paying for supersport and other SR related services or items aren't those earning very little money. Don't forget there's almost as many whites in SA (a small minority of the population) as the whole population in New Zealand. And average wages are much higher than your uninformed claims
And your players are paid a pittance in comparison.
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assfly
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by assfly »

Ali's Choice wrote:A question for South African Rugby fans, will there be any unintended consequences associated with SA teams joining the Pro 18? Your club/franchise pro-Rugby season will effectively run from September to the end of May. I know the Cheetahs and Kings have been involved for a season and a half already, but how will Rugby fare as a summer sport in South Africa?
I don't see it being an issue. SR pre-season starts in December anyway, so players are used to the heat. But perhaps we'll see more evening games.

I'm sure fans will be pleased to have games on during the Christmas holidays.
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Boomslang
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Boomslang »

Some epic ref whinges incoming if the bigger SA unions join the Pro14. If you guys thing reffing in SR is bad, you're in for a rude awakening.
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Jensrsa
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Jensrsa »

As I said, fix the domestic rugby

If the domestic rugby is strong and not developmental Bok rugby will be strong

Have the top 3 CC teams compete in a Heineken /Cup style comp from

3 SA teams (Jaguares in the SA comp)
3 Anzac teams
3 England teams
3 Pro14 teams
3 French teams
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Brumby_in_Vic
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Brumby_in_Vic »

mr bungle wrote:
Lemoentjie wrote::roll: The majority of the people paying for supersport and other SR related services or items aren't those earning very little money. Don't forget there's almost as many whites in SA (a small minority of the population) as the whole population in New Zealand. And average wages are much higher than your uninformed claims
And your players are paid a pittance in comparison.
Might help if their squads aren’t so large. The Sharks named a 45 man squad for Super Rugby this year.
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Jensrsa
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Jensrsa »

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:
mr bungle wrote:
Lemoentjie wrote::roll: The majority of the people paying for supersport and other SR related services or items aren't those earning very little money. Don't forget there's almost as many whites in SA (a small minority of the population) as the whole population in New Zealand. And average wages are much higher than your uninformed claims
And your players are paid a pittance in comparison.
Might help if their squads aren’t so large. The Sharks named a 45 man squad for Super Rugby this year.
A bit misleading as SA unions are limited to 45 pro players. That is for SR, Currie Cup, SSRC and Junior rugby, The rest of the players are semi-pro and amateur

Edit: SA had over 900 pro players (waaayyy too many) and SARU wants it down to 450 in order to pay the real pros more, the rest on semi-pro contracts
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sorCrer
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by sorCrer »

Ali's Choice wrote:
Frequent Flyer wrote:Big if true

Makes sense

Nobody should have to deal with that amount of jet lag
A question for South African Rugby fans, will there be any unintended consequences associated with SA teams joining the Pro 18? Your club/franchise pro-Rugby season will effectively run from September to the end of May. I know the Cheetahs and Kings have been involved for a season and a half already, but how will Rugby fare as a summer sport in South Africa?
There is no f**king way you can play rugby in full Summer in Durban even at night.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by mdaclarke »

If this is true, then it has CVC's fingerprints all over it.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by openclashXX »

mdaclarke wrote:If this is true, then it has CVC's fingerprints all over it.
Are CVC the new boogeymen of rugby? Anything remotely connected with profit is now linked with them is it

Well it makes a change from PRL or Mourad Boudjellal I suppose
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Cartman
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Cartman »

I wont miss some SR teams at all
Mostly the Aussie teams, cannot stand most of them
Bye bye
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Ali's Choice
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Ali's Choice »

Cartman wrote:I wont miss some SR teams at all
Mostly the Aussie teams, cannot stand most of them
Bye bye
The feeling is mutual, most Australians can't stand the South African teams. So useless, and shamelessly aided and abetted by their crooked home-town referees. Seems like South Africa finally leaving for 'easy rugby' will be a win-win for all parties. That's a brilliant outcome :thumbup:
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Jensrsa »

Whatever is happening I want to see the Currie Cup brought back to be the premier Saffer comp with the top 2 or 3 teams competing for international honours against the Kiwis, French and English. The rest don't really count
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Ali's Choice
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Ali's Choice »

Jensrsa wrote:Whatever is happening I want to see the Currie Cup brought back to be the premier Saffer comp with the top 2 or 3 teams competing for international honours against the Kiwis, French and English. The rest don't really count
That could happen if the SARU can organise for direct invitations in the Heineken Cup, but then your CC would need to be organised around that, which might not be simple.
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Jensrsa
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Jensrsa »

Ali's Choice wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:Whatever is happening I want to see the Currie Cup brought back to be the premier Saffer comp with the top 2 or 3 teams competing for international honours against the Kiwis, French and English. The rest don't really count
That could happen if the SARU can organise for direct invitations in the Heineken Cup, but then your CC would need to be organised around that, which might not be simple.
Not simple at all but not only about the Saffers. It's about re-organising the HC to include the Pro14, Top14, PR, NPC and CC
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by mdaclarke »

Jensrsa wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:Whatever is happening I want to see the Currie Cup brought back to be the premier Saffer comp with the top 2 or 3 teams competing for international honours against the Kiwis, French and English. The rest don't really count
That could happen if the SARU can organise for direct invitations in the Heineken Cup, but then your CC would need to be organised around that, which might not be simple.
Not simple at all but not only about the Saffers. It's about re-organising the HC to include the Pro14, Top14, PR, NPC and CC
I would like a standalone Currie Cup (With Cheetahs and Kings) with the top 6 qualifying to the Heineken Cup. Likewise the top 6 of the Pro 12, Top 14 and Gallagher Premiership. Would then have an overarching competition of 24 clubs.

Then have 4 x 6 Pools, top 2 from each pool going to QF and so on.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Jensrsa »

mdaclarke wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:Whatever is happening I want to see the Currie Cup brought back to be the premier Saffer comp with the top 2 or 3 teams competing for international honours against the Kiwis, French and English. The rest don't really count
That could happen if the SARU can organise for direct invitations in the Heineken Cup, but then your CC would need to be organised around that, which might not be simple.
Not simple at all but not only about the Saffers. It's about re-organising the HC to include the Pro14, Top14, PR, NPC and CC
I would like a standalone Currie Cup (With Cheetahs and Kings) with the top 6 qualifying to the Heineken Cup. Likewise the top 6 of the Pro 12, Top 14 and Gallagher Premiership. Would then have an overarching competition of 24 clubs.

Then have 4 x 6 Pools, top 2 from each pool going to QF and so on.
CC to be 6 teams, top 3 to qualify for the HC style comp
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by mdaclarke »

Jensrsa wrote:
mdaclarke wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:Whatever is happening I want to see the Currie Cup brought back to be the premier Saffer comp with the top 2 or 3 teams competing for international honours against the Kiwis, French and English. The rest don't really count
That could happen if the SARU can organise for direct invitations in the Heineken Cup, but then your CC would need to be organised around that, which might not be simple.
Not simple at all but not only about the Saffers. It's about re-organising the HC to include the Pro14, Top14, PR, NPC and CC
I would like a standalone Currie Cup (With Cheetahs and Kings) with the top 6 qualifying to the Heineken Cup. Likewise the top 6 of the Pro 12, Top 14 and Gallagher Premiership. Would then have an overarching competition of 24 clubs.

Then have 4 x 6 Pools, top 2 from each pool going to QF and so on.
CC to be 6 teams, top 3 to qualify for the HC style comp
Don't see the Saffers going for that, they will want a minimum of 4 teams in HC (Bulls, Lions, Sharks, Stormers)
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Ali's Choice »

sorCrer wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Frequent Flyer wrote:Big if true

Makes sense

Nobody should have to deal with that amount of jet lag
A question for South African Rugby fans, will there be any unintended consequences associated with SA teams joining the Pro 18? Your club/franchise pro-Rugby season will effectively run from September to the end of May. I know the Cheetahs and Kings have been involved for a season and a half already, but how will Rugby fare as a summer sport in South Africa?
There is no f**king way you can play rugby in full Summer in Durban even at night.
The challenge is that it's not just the pro level that would need to switch to summer, all the levels below this would also need to switch to ensure that there was a pool of developing playing ready to step up if needed. The pro's can play under lights but this may not be possible at school and club level.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by beachboy »

Jensrsa wrote:Whatever is happening I want to see the Currie Cup brought back to be the premier Saffer comp with the top 2 or 3 teams competing for international honours against the Kiwis, French and English. The rest don't really count
While I will miss watching some of the Super Rugby, a move would probably benefit us. If we can build the Currie Cup back to what it was and develop the Gold Cup and Varsity Cup, as well as the under 20 competition, we will have a continuous flow of talent. We need to get the crowds back. Schools rugby attracts massive crowds countrywide and we need to tap that to build the commercial side of the game.

I think one of the saving graces of SA Rugby is that the game is growing fast in previously football supporting communities. So we dont have a limited market to tap into and can continue to grow the game.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by DraadkarD »

I know Ali is trolling and he just hates us, but Super Rugby is the by far the best "club" competition globally and it will really be sad if we leave.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by mr bungle »

DraadkarD wrote:I know Ali is trolling and he just hates us, but Super Rugby is the by far the best "club" competition globally and it will really be sad if we leave.
I think the format has been rubbish for some time. 14 teams was about the max, but Super 12 was a grand time, IMHO. It was unique and new. Skill level high, rugby was really expanding as a game with the likes of Cullen, Umaga, Lomu, Wilson amongst countless others including the rise of the Brumbies which resulted in some dominant Wallabies seasons as well. As the years rolled on, the geographic constraints really hit home and don't help grow the rivalries or connect fans across the countries involved. Night rugby was also a novelty for a number of seasons but that wore off as well.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

From a SA pov, Super Rugby has long ago reached it's pinnacle and after that only eroded SA Rugby.
We need a super vamped elite Currie Cup competition. With current Springboks. Then SA will pay for TV and seats. .A presence in European rugby will be great, to keep the trekvoëls in money.

NZ will fall over their feet to host Springbok games. Oz. Who knows ? But, will they have the money ?
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by shanky »

openclashXX wrote:
mdaclarke wrote:If this is true, then it has CVC's fingerprints all over it.
Are CVC the new boogeymen of rugby? Anything remotely connected with profit is now linked with them is it

Well it makes a change from PRL or Mourad Boudjellal I suppose
Far be it from me to criticise an organisation like the fabulous and well-lawyered CVC, but...

Private Equity doesn't exist for the the purposes of promoting the interests of sport. It exists for the purposes of promoting the interests of its equity-holders.

And everything that this means...

(profit > tradition)

All IMHO, of course
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by DraadkarD »

mr bungle wrote:
DraadkarD wrote:I know Ali is trolling and he just hates us, but Super Rugby is the by far the best "club" competition globally and it will really be sad if we leave.
I think the format has been rubbish for some time. 14 teams was about the max, but Super 12 was a grand time, IMHO. It was unique and new. Skill level high, rugby was really expanding as a game with the likes of Cullen, Umaga, Lomu, Wilson amongst countless others including the rise of the Brumbies which resulted in some dominant Wallabies seasons as well. As the years rolled on, the geographic constraints really hit home and don't help grow the rivalries or connect fans across the countries involved. Night rugby was also a novelty for a number of seasons but that wore off as well.
I agree. And the format should not have changed. But, there is a big difference in the quality of the games between Soup and Pro 14. I was really sad when the Cheetahs were kicked out. Watched some great games at the Free State Stadium.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by naki »

Wilson's Toffee wrote:NZ will fall over their feet to host Springbok games
You've got that backwards. All Blacks tests are the only international fixtures that consistently sell out larger stadiums in the Republic, and usually at a premium ticket pricing point. SARU are going to make sure they never kill that cash cow.

Springbok tests in NZ are not as much of a draw, often being farmed out to smaller venues like Albany or the temporary Christchurch shithole "stadium". They sell out, as All Blacks tests always do in NZ, but not on the scale of Bledisloe tests which - despite being a non-contest for decades now - are usually held at Eden Park which is by far the country's biggest venue yet hasn't housed the Boks in nearly a decade.

To the NZ public (if not necessarily to the more fanatic rugby fraternity) the Bledisloe rivalry is stronger than the Bok/Black one. The increasing competitiveness of the Boks, and a potential return to longer tours, might help change this.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Ali's Choice »

DraadkarD wrote:I know Ali is trolling and he just hates us, but Super Rugby is the by far the best "club" competition globally and it will really be sad if we leave.
Trolling? I simply quoted an article that was widely available online. The SARU has been threatening to move to the NH since the inception of Super Rugby, and NZ and Australia have finally called their bluff.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by assfly »

Apart from some of the big Irish teams, there isn't that much of a draw for me. The thought of staying up late to see the Sharks play a Friday night game in Newport isn't very tempting.

I'd be much more interested to see them play in the Premiership. Games against the likes of Exeter, Bath, Harlequins sound tasty.

I wonder what the rules on eligibility for the European Cup will be?
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Ted. »

openclashXX wrote:
mdaclarke wrote:If this is true, then it has CVC's fingerprints all over it.
Are CVC the new boogeymen of rugby? Anything remotely connected with profit is now linked with them is it

Well it makes a change from PRL or Mourad Boudjellal I suppose
Help me out here, why does it have to be one or the other?
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Sandstorm »

sorCrer wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Frequent Flyer wrote:Big if true

Makes sense

Nobody should have to deal with that amount of jet lag
A question for South African Rugby fans, will there be any unintended consequences associated with SA teams joining the Pro 18? Your club/franchise pro-Rugby season will effectively run from September to the end of May. I know the Cheetahs and Kings have been involved for a season and a half already, but how will Rugby fare as a summer sport in South Africa?
There is no f**king way you can play rugby in full Summer in Durban even at night.
The obvious answer is to exclude the Sharks.
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Average Joe
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Average Joe »

Sandstorm wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
Frequent Flyer wrote:Big if true

Makes sense

Nobody should have to deal with that amount of jet lag
A question for South African Rugby fans, will there be any unintended consequences associated with SA teams joining the Pro 18? Your club/franchise pro-Rugby season will effectively run from September to the end of May. I know the Cheetahs and Kings have been involved for a season and a half already, but how will Rugby fare as a summer sport in South Africa?
There is no f**king way you can play rugby in full Summer in Durban even at night.
The obvious answer is to exclude the Sharks.
Nah just make them play in PE.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Ali's Choice »

assfly wrote:Apart from some of the big Irish teams, there isn't that much of a draw for me.
I don't blame you. The Italian, Welsh and Scottish nothing-teams are not the most awe inspiring opposition. In saying that, the South African teams should do very well against them and another huge positive is that all your matches will be played at viewer friendly times. The only real downside I can see for you guys is switching pro-Rugby to a summer sport. I think this might have loads of unintended negative outcomes.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Catman »

I absolutely Agree for once with Ali here. It will be much better to have time zone friendly rugby comps.

In the long run, this is the best decision for SA Rugby both at SR and international level. Dropping the requirement for Bok players to play SR in past seasons has resulted in a big exodus of top players to Europe. May as well have everyone swimming in the same pool.

Ironically, it also improves SA's relative prospects internationally IMO, as I foresee a gradual deterioration in ANZAC rugby over the next few years as a result of falling revenues, and international isolation outside of the International windows.

Ali's dream of time zone friendly fixtures works both ways though. There will certainly be almost no interest in televising ANZAC rugby in Europe, and absolutely none in SA if there are no saffa teams participating. Revenue from dwindling TV and live audiences will decline, and more ANZAC players will logically opt for Europe. This will further erode the quality of ANZACSR (TM) and (in Australia at least), rugby will drift even further down the ratings relative to AFL and NRL.

Eventually the lack of depth and quality of the ANZACSR will force even NZ to make overseas players eligible for the AB's/.

I honestly think that in ten years, neither NZ nor Australia will be serious contenders for top 3 spots in world rugby. Neither will win another world cup for at least a generation.

Personally I am saddened by the split and the loss of the special rivalry with NZ especially. But times change and rugby needs to change with it. For better or worse. :((
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by Ali's Choice »

Catman wrote:Ali's dream of time zone friendly fixtures works both ways though. There will certainly be almost no interest in televising ANZAC rugby in Europe, and absolutely none in SA if there are no saffa teams participating. Revenue from dwindling TV and live audiences will decline, and more ANZAC players will logically opt for Europe. This will further erode the quality of ANZACSR (TM) and (in Australia at least), rugby will drift even further down the ratings relative to AFL and NRL.

Eventually the lack of depth and quality of the ANZACSR will force even NZ to make overseas players eligible for the AB's/.

I honestly think that in ten years, neither NZ nor Australia will be serious contenders for top 3 spots in world rugby. Neither will win another world cup for at least a generation.

Personally I am saddened by the split and the loss of the special rivalry with NZ especially. But times change and rugby needs to change with it. For better or worse. :((
Trans Tasman Rugby will still attract European viewers, and the test matches will still draw big global audiences. Moreover, you act as if NZ and Australia aren't wealthy countries and big sports markets in their own right. The NRL, a tiny, niche sport played in only two Australian states, just signed a new $2 billion AUD TV rights deal in the middle of a global pandemic. There is massive amounts of TV money floating around this part of the world if the product is right. And the product was never going to be right if it involved South African timezones.
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mr bungle
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by mr bungle »

Catman wrote: I honestly think that in ten years, neither NZ nor Australia will be serious contenders for top 3 spots in world rugby. Neither will win another world cup for at least a generation.
NZ's demise has been predicted for many seasons now. I prefer to deal in facts. For 3 whole years from Sep 2016 to Sep 2019 the Springboks were ranked outside the top 3 test sides. Dipping as low as 8th and averaging 6th place.
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Re: SARU - " Totsiens Verloorders!"

Post by handyman »

naki wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:NZ will fall over their feet to host Springbok games

Springbok tests in NZ are not as much of a draw, often being farmed out to smaller venues like Albany or the temporary Christchurch shithole "stadium". They sell out, as All Blacks tests always do in NZ, but not on the scale of Bledisloe tests which - despite being a non-contest for decades now - are usually held at Eden Park which is by far the country's biggest venue yet hasn't housed the Boks in nearly a decade.
That's just the Kiwi crowd catching a game where they will definitely emerge as the winners.
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