Burnley condemns white lives matter

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msp.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by msp. »

JM2K6 wrote:
msp. wrote:Changes were already in place the concert hall had already changed it name and primary school changed it name as well. But it has "justified" attacks on other statues I.e the playwright..
No, the concert hall is still called Colston Hall. It _will_ change, though.

Colston Girl's School is changing its name as a result of the protest.
Colston Tower, ditto.
The Colston Arms has said it's going to follow suit.

A few other things seem to be in the pipeline.
Colston Hall will change after refubishment (it was announced before the protest),

Colston Girl's School said in 2017 that it would not change it name, it now reviewing (again), do not believe it has announced any decision,

However the original point was that you can support the objectives of BLM and not support mobs pulling down statues as that can lead to bigger issues.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by C69 »

Does anyone think they have been dealt a worse hand because they are white and working class?
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Torquemada 1420
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

BokJock wrote:
Torquemada 1420 wrote:
BokJock wrote:I may very well be a complete moron (although unlikely), but I am sometimes a moron. This might be one of those times. I am sure you will tell me because you are so absolutely sure of yourself on this issue.

But maybe people who refuse to see the racial undertone of flying that banner should possibly be a little introspective themselves.
If you can be arsed, see my post in response to Thomas earlier in this thread.

Broadly what you think does not equate to what is fact: in this case, legal fact.

Tell me what you infer from this
Image
or this
Image
English football fan - probably during the Euros or a World Cup
OK. So let me tell you what significant sections of the non-white populace sees.
Spoiler: show
NF/EDL etc supporter alert. Steer clear.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by shereblue »

DAC_ wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
DAC_ wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:It's been widely reported just how many changes have been announced as a result of the protest so perhaps let's not pretend this was all stuff that was going to happen.
There have been ongoing, democratic discussions in Bristol about how to address the issue fairly. The Theatre agreed to change it's name, last year.
Yes, it did. That's the one that was already in progress (since 2017). Now, about the others...?
Discussing it fairly and properly is the forward, tearing down statues is nothing short of thuggery.
The removal of Jimmy Saville's statue from Glasgow Baths received no open discussion.

It was just removed, overnight. No fair or proper discussion.

There should surely have been a democratic vote and police protection from thugs for the statue in the meantime.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Anonymous 1 »

JM2K6 wrote:
msp. wrote:Changes were already in place the concert hall had already changed it name and primary school changed it name as well. But it has "justified" attacks on other statues I.e the playwright..
No, the concert hall is still called Colston Hall. It _will_ change, though.

Colston Girl's School is changing its name as a result of the protest.
Colston Tower, ditto.
The Colston Arms has said it's going to follow suit.

A few other things seem to be in the pipeline.
It's a shame this is being done under duress. I can't help but feel they would rather still continue to honour this man
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

DAC_ wrote:People do know that they are the pictures that the MP, Emily Thundercunt , posted on her twitter account, right?

Which helped the Left lose, again.
Actually, I didn't!! I was just looking for pics of "St George white van" to illustrate a point.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by DAC_ »

Bimboc69 wrote:Does anyone think they have been dealt a worse hand because they are white and working class?
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/01/2 ... lass-boys/

If you want to pretend privilege is real for white working class people then it has only been around for a very short time.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by JM2K6 »

Anonymous. wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
msp. wrote:Changes were already in place the concert hall had already changed it name and primary school changed it name as well. But it has "justified" attacks on other statues I.e the playwright..
No, the concert hall is still called Colston Hall. It _will_ change, though.

Colston Girl's School is changing its name as a result of the protest.
Colston Tower, ditto.
The Colston Arms has said it's going to follow suit.

A few other things seem to be in the pipeline.
It's a shame this is being done under duress. I can't help but feel they would rather still continue to honour this man
Certainly in some cases it's going to be a "we'd best avoid any future drama" decision. The pub seems to be run by a good bloke though :thumbup:
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by BokJock »

Torquemada 1420 wrote:
BokJock wrote:
Torquemada 1420 wrote:
BokJock wrote:I may very well be a complete moron (although unlikely), but I am sometimes a moron. This might be one of those times. I am sure you will tell me because you are so absolutely sure of yourself on this issue.

But maybe people who refuse to see the racial undertone of flying that banner should possibly be a little introspective themselves.
If you can be arsed, see my post in response to Thomas earlier in this thread.

Broadly what you think does not equate to what is fact: in this case, legal fact.

Tell me what you infer from this
Image
or this
Image
English football fan - probably during the Euros or a World Cup
OK. So let me tell you what significant sections of the non-white populace sees.
Spoiler: show
NF/EDL etc supporter alert. Steer clear.
I don't doubt that, because those racist pricks stole your flag.

No one up here thinks that about the Saltire
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

my 2 cents wrote:They flew the banner because:

A) the individuals involved are racist and white supremists
B) they are racist and think white lives matter too
C) they are racist and think BLM is too
D) they aren’t racist but from their socio-economic background they don’t feel that they experience white privilege and see members of BAME having equally the same opportunities as them
E) they are racist and based on their socio-economic background think that BAME have more advantages than them
E) they aren’t racist but were outraged at the murder of 3 white people the day before by someone from BAME community
F) they are racist and were outraged by the murder of 3 white people the day before by someone from BAME
G) it was a prank
H) they don’t agree with BLMs Marxist aims and seek to undermine it
I) they believe the FA and footballers are hypocrites with their political emblems (including Marxism) and kneeling
J) they are seeking a PR or legal battle for their cause


Etc

Or a combination of the above.
No. No. No. The media, the masses and that pinnacle of moral decency, Burnley Wendyball, have decided, without trial, that is was right wing nutters in an attempt at a racist act.

For the hard of thinking, I'm certainly not precluding that as a possibility,

This is why we don't let knee-jerk morons decide matters of innocence or guilt:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/aug ... on.society
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

BokJock wrote:I don't doubt that, because those racist pricks stole your flag.

No one up here thinks that about the Saltire
Image

So by your rationale, EVERY white van driver and council house tenant (see what I did here?) displaying that symbol should be arrested and charged with being a racist? Immediately.

And even if the police/CPS refuse to do so, every single one of these individuals should immediately be banned from every wendyball ground in England?
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by C69 »

DAC_ wrote:
Bimboc69 wrote:Does anyone think they have been dealt a worse hand because they are white and working class?
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/01/2 ... lass-boys/

If you want to pretend privilege is real for white working class people then it has only been around for a very short time.
I think nothing of the sort, and I firmly believe white working class areas have been massively neglected and the education system has largely ignored white working class lads.
Indeed I will go so far as to say that time and time again these Communities across the UK were taken for granted by all political Parties. Especially Labour.
It's not a new thing and it's something that has been written about for years in left wing circles.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by DAC_ »

Bimboc69 wrote:
DAC_ wrote:
Bimboc69 wrote:Does anyone think they have been dealt a worse hand because they are white and working class?
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/01/2 ... lass-boys/

If you want to pretend privilege is real for white working class people then it has only been around for a very short time.
I think nothing of the sort, and I firmly believe white working class areas have been massively neglected and the education system has largely ignored white working class lads.
Indeed I will go so far as to say that time and time again these Communities across the UK were taken for granted by all political Parties. Especially Labour.
It's not a new thing and it's something that has been written about for years in left wing circles.
So why did you ask the question?
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by blindcider »

Bimboc69 wrote:Does anyone think they have been dealt a worse hand because they are white and working class?
As a child from a relatively unprivileged background (single parent family living on a council estate) going to University I had very much a weaker hand than others of many backgrounds, having to work all through university to fund my way whilst some of my peers used their student loans to fund cars and skiing holidays. Also applying to the RAF OASC for an engineering officer role on leaving university I was made to feel very discriminated against because of my background. If I had chosen a more typical career like many of my peers growing up then i am sure in many ways life would have been easier.

However having said all that I would not claim to have a worse hand than others because the discrimination and difficulties I have faced have mainly been through my own life choices. Also feeling like that on a few occasions is very different to facing it regularly and not through your own choices.

Hope that makes sense...
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by C69 »

DAC_ wrote:
Bimboc69 wrote:
DAC_ wrote:
Bimboc69 wrote:Does anyone think they have been dealt a worse hand because they are white and working class?
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/01/2 ... lass-boys/

If you want to pretend privilege is real for white working class people then it has only been around for a very short time.
I think nothing of the sort, and I firmly believe white working class areas have been massively neglected and the education system has largely ignored white working class lads.
Indeed I will go so far as to say that time and time again these Communities across the UK were taken for granted by all political Parties. Especially Labour.
It's not a new thing and it's something that has been written about for years in left wing circles.
So why did you ask the question?
Why not?
I know my own opinion, it's just something people do on a public forum.
You know like ask peoples opinions and discuss them.
Novel I know.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by BokJock »

Torquemada 1420 wrote:
BokJock wrote:I don't doubt that, because those racist pricks stole your flag.

No one up here thinks that about the Saltire
Image

So by your rationale, EVERY white van driver and council house tenant (see what I did here?) displaying that symbol should be arrested and charged with being a racist? Immediately.

And even if the police/CPS refuse to do so, every single one of these individuals should immediately be banned from every wendyball ground in England?
No, because it is your national flag. how can you stop people flying your national flag? if maybe they had the words White Lives Matter printed on the flag and it was hoisted over a stadium while players were marking a stand against racism and promoting equality....
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by backrow »

themalteser wrote:Back row, why are you bringing SA into this? That's a wild contortion from talking about Lincolnshire. The rest of your post is just stupid so, with all due respect, I'm oot.
Hang on:
Murder in USA, protests in uk = acceptable

Protests in Uk, mere mention of another country =unacceptable

Have I understood you correctly ?


I could just have easily said “BLM types, why are you bringing the UK into this ? That’s a wild contortion from talking about a murder in USA. The rest of your post is stupid so, with all due respect, I’m oot.”

All you have done here is further prove anyone mentioning something where white people suffer, is at best irrelevant and at worst, racist.
Last edited by backrow on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

Bimboc69 wrote:
DAC_ wrote:
Bimboc69 wrote:Does anyone think they have been dealt a worse hand because they are white and working class?
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/01/2 ... lass-boys/

If you want to pretend privilege is real for white working class people then it has only been around for a very short time.
I think nothing of the sort, and I firmly believe white working class areas have been massively neglected and the education system has largely ignored white working class lads.
Indeed I will go so far as to say that time and time again these Communities across the UK were taken for granted by all political Parties. Especially Labour.
It's not a new thing and it's something that has been written about for years in left wing circles.
The irony being that the working class white communities and ethnic communities have far more in common than they have differences when it comes to systematic, targeted under privilege. Their real and common enemy is the elite and its cohorts.... you lot ;)
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by DAC_ »

backrow wrote:
themalteser wrote:Back row, why are you bringing SA into this? That's a wild contortion from talking about Lincolnshire. The rest of your post is just stupid so, with all due respect, I'm oot.
Hang on:
Murder in USA, protests in uk = acceptable

Protests in Uk, mere mention of another country =unacceptable

Have I understood you correctly ?


I could just have easily said “BLM types, why are you bringing the UK into this ? That’s a wild contortion from talking about a murder in USA. The rest of your post is stupid so, with all due respect, I’m oot.”

All you have done here is further prove anyone mentioning something where white people suffer, is at best irrelevant and at worst, racist.
:thumbup:

They think like that because they're marxists.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by DAC_ »

Torquemada 1420 wrote:
Bimboc69 wrote:
DAC_ wrote:
Bimboc69 wrote:Does anyone think they have been dealt a worse hand because they are white and working class?
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/01/2 ... lass-boys/

If you want to pretend privilege is real for white working class people then it has only been around for a very short time.
I think nothing of the sort, and I firmly believe white working class areas have been massively neglected and the education system has largely ignored white working class lads.
Indeed I will go so far as to say that time and time again these Communities across the UK were taken for granted by all political Parties. Especially Labour.
It's not a new thing and it's something that has been written about for years in left wing circles.
The irony being that the working class white communities and ethnic communities have far more in common than they have differences when it comes to systematic, targeted under privilege. Their real and common enemy is the elite and its cohorts.... you lot ;)
As I've been saying, over, and over....but I'm the racist.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Santa »

Should we really be surprised or worried that in a white English society established by white English people white English people tend to do better? Would be we equally appalled if Chinese people do better in China or India people do better in India?
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by DAC_ »

Santa wrote:Should we really be surprised or worried that in a white English society established by white English people white English people tend to do better? Would be we equally appalled if Chinese people do better in China or India people do better in India?

Which is why the whole movement is farcical. This is nothing more than hatred of white people or in the middle classes, self hatred, taught at Universities and the hatred of poor white people.

.......and most of you lot seem to have fallen for it.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by henry »

DAC_ wrote:
Santa wrote:Should we really be surprised or worried that in a white English society established by white English people white English people tend to do better? Would be we equally appalled if Chinese people do better in China or India people do better in India?

Which is why the whole movement is farcical. This is nothing more than hatred of white people or in the middle classes, self hatred, taught at Universities and the hatred of poor white people.

.......and most of you lot seem to have fallen for it.
Uh huh.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by happyhooker »

Santa wrote:Should we really be surprised or worried that in a white English society established by white English people white English people tend to do better? Would be we equally appalled if Chinese people do better in China or India people do better in India?
Well yes, yes would should. If you believe we're a tolerant open society. Herein lies the problem.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by happyhooker »

DAC_ wrote:
Santa wrote:Should we really be surprised or worried that in a white English society established by white English people white English people tend to do better? Would be we equally appalled if Chinese people do better in China or India people do better in India?

Which is why the whole movement is farcical. This is nothing more than hatred of white people or in the middle classes, self hatred, taught at Universities and the hatred of poor white people.

.......and most of you lot seem to have fallen for it.
Oh you absolute lunatic
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Sandstorm »

Hey DAC, which Right Wing website have you been hanging out at since Xmas? 'Cos the questions you're posting here surely come from a list of slogans on a cheap pamphlet.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by message #2527204 »

DAC_ wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
DAC_ wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
DAC_ wrote:Moreover....if you believe you have privilege then you are enforcing to the people that you think don't have privilege that you are better than them.

And that's racist.

You've fallen for marxist subversion.
No-one's bothered to respond to this, strangely.

Having privilege does not mean that you are better than them. You've completely failed to understand it. I can say I'm privileged and that my friend isn't, and it says literally nothing about which one of us is the better person.

Does the online training about 'marxist subversion' not teach you this shit?
If you have two groups of people and you announce one group is privileged and other isn't - how do you think the people in the second group feel?

It's enforcement of division.
No, it's recognition of a division thanks to factors beyond the control of both groups. It doesn't enforce anything. You can't fix a problem you don't recognise.
The notion of privilege enforces racism, it doesn't stop it. You can't change my mind on this.
You're not announcing something that isn't true. How can addressing a problem with racism be racist?

You believe there is equality of opportunity, when there clearly isn't.
If that goes for poor white kids too, then that also has to be looked at, but it isn't the same thing.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by DAC_ »

Sandstorm wrote:Hey DAC, which Right Wing website have you been hanging out at since Xmas? 'Cos the questions you're posting here surely come from a list of slogans on a cheap pamphlet.
Just make one up, it's what you normally do. I'll be fine with it.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by BokJock »

Santa wrote:Should we really be surprised or worried that in a white English society established by white English people white English people tend to do better? Would be we equally appalled if Chinese people do better in China or India people do better in India?
Yes, if say Indian Muslims were discriminated against, we should be appalled.

we are after all talking about English people that are being discriminated against
Last edited by BokJock on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Santa »

happyhooker wrote:
Santa wrote:Should we really be surprised or worried that in a white English society established by white English people white English people tend to do better? Would be we equally appalled if Chinese people do better in China or India people do better in India?
Well yes, yes would should. If you believe we're a tolerant open society. Herein lies the problem.
It is a tolerant open society created by white English people strongly influenced by white English culture, values and mores. Other people can and do thrive here but it is what it is. That's not to say that there is no racism. There clearly is. But its not racist to have a culturally inflected society in which the people who created it do better than the people who didn't. It's normal. It's ubiquitous even.
Last edited by Santa on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Santa »

BokJock wrote:
Santa wrote:Should we really be surprised or worried that in a white English society established by white English people white English people tend to do better? Would be we equally appalled if Chinese people do better in China or India people do better in India?
Yes, if say Indian Muslims were discriminated against, we should be appalled.
Off you go then.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by DAC_ »

You believe there is equality of opportunity, when there clearly isn't.
If there was no E of O there would be no BAME:

MPs,
Councillors
Police
Military Officers
Doctors
Teachers
Etc
Etc
Etc
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by shereblue »

backrow wrote:
themalteser wrote:Back row, why are you bringing SA into this? That's a wild contortion from talking about Lincolnshire. The rest of your post is just stupid so, with all due respect, I'm oot.
Hang on:
Murder in USA, protests in uk = acceptable

Protests in Uk, mere mention of another country =unacceptable

Have I understood you correctly ?


I could just have easily said “BLM types, why are you bringing the UK into this ? That’s a wild contortion from talking about a murder in USA. The rest of your post is stupid so, with all due respect, I’m oot.”

All you have done here is further prove anyone mentioning something where white people suffer, is at best irrelevant and at worst, racist.
What was revealing in your post was that you singled out white deaths in the RSA as being under-reported in the UK.

I'd commend J M Coetzee's "Disgrace" as an interesting novel on the subject of white farmers. Possibly a tad nuanced for you though, Backtow.
Last edited by shereblue on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by happyhooker »

Santa wrote:
happyhooker wrote:
Santa wrote:Should we really be surprised or worried that in a white English society established by white English people white English people tend to do better? Would be we equally appalled if Chinese people do better in China or India people do better in India?
Well yes, yes would should. If you believe we're a tolerant open society. Herein lies the problem.
It is a tolerant open society created by white English people strongly influenced by white English culture, values and mores. Other people can and do thrive here but it is what it is. That's not to say that there is no racism. There clearly is. But its not racist to have a cultural inflected society in which the people who created it do better than the people who didn't. It's normal. It's ubiquitous even.
We're moving on from the blm argument here I suppose. In some cases culturally inflected societies are racist ie UAE etc.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Sandstorm »

BokJock wrote:
Yes, if say Indian Muslims were discriminated against, we should be appalled.
Their own fault for eating beef burgers in Dehli.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by happyhooker »

DAC_ wrote:
You believe there is equality of opportunity, when there clearly isn't.
If there was no E of O there would be no BAME:

MPs,
Councillors
Police
Military Officers
Doctors
Teachers
Etc
Etc
Etc
Rubbish
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by JM2K6 »

That Spiked article is interesting.

The author states that black male unemployment in the UK in 2019 was 9%. He then cherry picks the worst possible data for where "white working class boys grew up", and decides that 9% is representative there.

So even in his worst-case scenario, and trying to take into account that he doesn't actually have any data on working class people specifically to work off, the unemployment rate in this cherry picked example still only matches the overall average for black men, country- and class-wide.

He then talks about benefit claimant rates. Here, he chooses Tottenham (5% claimant rate) to represent the non-white community. He then chooses Middlesbrough (9.4%), South Shields (9.2%) and Blackpool South (8.1%) to compare to.

There's a few problems with this. First, Tottenham is 50% white according to the 2011 census. Middlesbrough is 88% white. That "other 50%" for Tottenham is having to do a lot of heavy lifting here - we are not comparing 88% white to 88% non-white. Secondly, why compare London to other parts of the country? Why not compare London boroughs with each other? Enfield, for example, is 77% white, but has a 4.4% claimant rate. I don't think anyone believes the employment situation in London matches the rest of the country, let alone the North-East.

He then guesses at some more numbers (claimant rates for "FSM white boys at GCSE level", prison population of "FSM white boys who failed their GCSEs", etc) - he doesn't have the numbers, but he wants to make them up anyway.

This is not a good use of statistics.



It's strange - I'm sure there's a case to be made for the plight of the white working class. The educational standards alone are a concern. The way poor people are treated in this country is pretty bad, and there's no doubt that working class people simply don't have the opportunities available to middle class people, and they do suffer some level of discrimination for being working class. But, y'know. The concept of privilege actually says that.
Last edited by JM2K6 on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

Santa wrote:Should we really be surprised or worried that in a white English society established by white English people white English people tend to do better? Would be we equally appalled if Chinese people do better in China or India people do better in India?
Except that Chinese and Indian kids do better here too :o

Case dismissed your honour.
Last edited by Torquemada 1420 on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
shereblue
Posts: 4236
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by shereblue »

happyhooker wrote:
DAC_ wrote:
You believe there is equality of opportunity, when there clearly isn't.
If there was no E of O there would be no BAME:

MPs,
Councillors
Police
Military Officers
Doctors
Teachers
Etc
Etc
Etc
Rubbish
There are hundreds of links showing the unequal treatment of applicants using ethnic names as opposed to native Brit names. All 100% objective and unequal treatment even occurring with employers boasting "equal opportunity" policies who presumably would not recognise themselves as racist.

The discrimination is unarguable.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46927417
Last edited by shereblue on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BokJock
Posts: 5346
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:30 am

Re: Burnley condemns white lives matter

Post by BokJock »

Santa wrote:
BokJock wrote:
Santa wrote:Should we really be surprised or worried that in a white English society established by white English people white English people tend to do better? Would be we equally appalled if Chinese people do better in China or India people do better in India?
Yes, if say Indian Muslims were discriminated against, we should be appalled.
Off you go then.
Off I go where?
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