Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege"?

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Average Joe
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Average Joe »

Sugar, maize meal, flour, white rice and fokon cocaine. All fokon racist man. Think of that when next you line op for a snort.
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Mahoney
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Mahoney »

Nieghorn wrote:
Pole wrote:What about Whitelisting and Blacklisting in IT!!!
I've already seen people (including an old friend :? ) have a go at 'blacklisting'. Apparently it goes back to the 1600s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting
Some of it just doesn't matter; using inclusion & exclusion list is in many ways just clearer. Likewise trunk as opposed to master for your primary source control branch - who cares?

Taken to its logical conclusion though it's a bit more of a problem. The association between white and purity is deeply entrenched in our language and culture, and long predates skin colour issues; when whoever wrote Isaiah wrote "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow" I don't think he had skin colour in mind, particularly as he is highly unlikely to have been pink skinned and blonde. Our villains are black-hearted (and frequently wear black). Again I don't think this is racial; far more to do with the association with lack of light as a synonym for evil.

Shame we don't use pink and brown as our racial terms. I don't think they carry quite as much baggage.
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Average Joe
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Average Joe »

Mahoney wrote:
Nieghorn wrote:
Pole wrote:What about Whitelisting and Blacklisting in IT!!!
I've already seen people (including an old friend :? ) have a go at 'blacklisting'. Apparently it goes back to the 1600s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting
Some of it just doesn't matter; using inclusion & exclusion list is in many ways just clearer. Likewise trunk as opposed to master for your primary source control branch - who cares?

Taken to its logical conclusion though it's a bit more of a problem. The association between white and purity is deeply entrenched in our language and culture, and long predates skin colour issues; when whoever wrote Isaiah wrote "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow" I don't think he had skin colour in mind, particularly as he is highly unlikely to have been pink skinned and blonde. Our villains are black-hearted (and frequently wear black). Again I don't think this is racial; far more to do with the association with lack of light as a synonym for evil.

Shame we don't use pink and brown as our racial terms. I don't think they carry quite as much baggage.
Because not all "white" people are British.
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Mahoney
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Mahoney »

I don't understand your comment.
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Average Joe
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Average Joe »

Mahoney wrote:I don't understand your comment.
Not all "white" people looks pink. It's only you Brits when you get a bit of sun.
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Mahoney
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Mahoney »

Average Joe wrote:
Mahoney wrote:I don't understand your comment.
Not all "white" people looks pink. It's only you Brits when you get a bit of sun.
They don't look white, either.
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Sensible Stephen
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Sensible Stephen »

Mahoney wrote:
Average Joe wrote:
Mahoney wrote:I don't understand your comment.
Not all "white" people looks pink. It's only you Brits when you get a bit of sun.
They don't look white, either.
You could argue Asians look more white than 'white' people. But we get called yellow. Go figure.

Also, calling someone yellow is offensive, but calling them white, black or brown is not. Again, go figure.
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Mahoney
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Mahoney »

Jerome Manning wrote:
JB1981 wrote:Pool. The black ball must go last; and we all know which ball is knocking the others around.
If you reverse it, then it is the black that gets smashed around and does all the dirty work, and the white gets to sit around waiting for all the glory at the end. You can't appease these people - absolutely everything, in every permutation, is racist in favour of whites.
This is rather lovely in microcosm. JB1981 makes up a previously non-existent racial critique which he doesn't agree with himself as part of the thread's rather laboured satire. Jerome Manning then makes up a previously non-existent racial critique of his own, and then projects both these fictional views onto those he disagrees with, justifying his dislike of them.
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kiap
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by kiap »

Average Joe wrote:Because not all "white" people are British.
The idea of "Whiteness" can depend on time and place. Ever heard of Benjamin Franklin? He regarded many Germans as non-white.

So it's a vague concept. There's no definitive definition.
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Average Joe
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Average Joe »

Mahoney wrote:
Average Joe wrote:
Mahoney wrote:I don't understand your comment.
Not all "white" people looks pink. It's only you Brits when you get a bit of sun.
They don't look white, either.
Except for my ballbag I'm an off-white tan colour.
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by guy smiley »

THIS WAS MY WEEK.

The ABC claims that chess is racist. Actually, it didn’t. I did. Only I didn’t. Someone else said I was going to. But I hadn’t. And I was never going to.
This is likely to stay torturous.
We’ll start here.
On a Tuesday evening, Economist and Chess player John Adams put out this tweet.
“I just received a phone call from an ABC Sydney based producer seeking a comment about the game of chess. The ABC have taken the view that chess is RACIST given that white always go first! They are seeking comment from a chess official as to whether the rules of chess need to be altered.”
He continued, “Trust the taxpayer funded national broadcaster to apply ideological Marxist frameworks to anything and everything in Australia! With all the drama resulting from COVID-19, I am amazed that the ABC is broadcasting on irrelevant topics.”
By the next morning Mr Adams is in the Daily Telegraph, and then on all the commercial talk shows airing his views.
By the end of the day no less a chess grandee than Garry Kasparov has joined in, thundering about how nonsensical it was that at tax payer funded broadcaster would do such a thing, and by the end of the week it’s a story on Breitbart News.
So my program and my producers are pilloried around the world based on a statement made by someone else about a segment that hadn’t been broadcast.
We hadn’t done it yet.
Now this does all get a bit he said/I said and there’s no reason to particularly believe my chronology but I will put at least two things up in my defence.
It is very easy to find exactly what my radio show is all about. I direct you to some 60 episodes of Head Room, the podcast distilled from my weekday program. Here you will find me looking for Sydney Traffic Light Number One; determining why those who pronounce the eighth letter of the alphabet as ‘Aitch’ are so disturbed when someone pronounces it ‘Haitch’ - just two highlights from a long catalogue of quirky and hopefully amusing conversations with experts and callers.
These conversations have a serious purpose.
For over twenty years I’ve been broadcasting between the hours of 12.30 and 3.30 on ABC Radio Sydney. It’s a News/Talk station and I decided long ago that there were plenty of people doing the News and maybe I should do the Talk.
In this I’m following exactly the brief, purpose and I would say, the sacred mission of Talk Radio.
At many points through the day Talk Radio is about providing direct and accurate information. But at many others it is about providing company, solace and the sound of a friendly human voice for those who may be alone and would like to be amused, uplifted, stimulated, amazed and taken out of themselves.
This is not a trivial purpose. There are many who seek it and if they need it, they really need it.
Talk radio at this point is not a distraction or background noise. It’s a relationship.
When the nation was on fire, I broadcast news about the fire. That’s how I spent Black Summer.
When the floods followed only weeks after the smoke had cleared, I broadcast news about the floods.
When the sickness came and all was closed down, I didn’t talk about anything else.
But of late, I have returned to my usual mix; quirky, whimsical, funny, observational ideas drawn from my life, my listener’s life, my producer’s life, anywhere we can find something which might allow us to illuminate a little more of the human condition and amuse someone in a delivery van, or working in a back warehouse, or at home caring for elderly or young charges.
I do three hours a day, five days a week. There is a five minute news bulletin at the top of the hour, some thirty second promos, perhaps a music track. But otherwise we talk, fifty minutes in the hour.
There’s nothing on this earth we are not going to have a crack at.
My second item of evidence is the original tweet which sparked my interest.
I read a tweet from a father teaching his child chess. The child asked, “why does white always go first?” The father paused, aware of current cultural context and wondered exactly how to answer. He wondered if there was any racial background to the rule.
He posted and there followed an interesting and engaging thread of comments. Some ridiculed any notion of race, some went to the history books, some considered the question in the light of these times and the cultural and linguistic truth that white is always a positive and black always a negative.
I think: there’s a fifteen minute radio discussion. Why does white go first in chess, what is the history of that and ( here’s the important bit really ) given current cultural trends is there any discussion in chess circles about this?
I haven’t decided that chess is racist. I am not looking for someone to say that chess is racist.
I’m not saying chess people should be talking about this. I’m just wondering if they do.
I am looking to create some conversation that will be fresh, that will keep someone interested and that will tell us something more about our world and why it is the way it is.
My producer did exactly what producers should do. She sought out an expert and asked them for information.
Mr Adams said he was no longer very active in chess circles and suggested someone else that we could turn to.
Before we put anything to air, before we’d decided whether we’d put anything to air, Mr Adams declared that the ABC thought chess was racist and this was again our Marxist ideology at play.
There is always a tendency to talk of ‘the ABC.’ As though it is one thing. It’s not. It’s dozens of things. We are Triple J, Double J, ABC Classic and ABC Country. We are RN and Local Radio.
That’s six different radio and digital broadcasts right there. And Local Radio is sixty different radio stations across Australia, from Hobart to Darwin, from Broome to Cairns.
I’m on the Sydney one. Broadcasting to a Sydney audience, in the afternoon. While I’m doing that ABC News is still doing the news, Four Corners is four cornering, Bluey is being Bluey and Costa is doing whatever he does with compost.
To accuse the ABC of ignoring major and important events because of one segment that I’m doing makes as much sense as ripping into us because the ABC has a program that thinks it’s vital to tell Australians what day it is. We do have a program that does that. It’s called Playschool.
And as for the constant notion that we are still in thrall to Marx and work tirelessly to overthrow our capitalist oppressors? Please. I have a music degree. I barely know what Marxist ideology is.
So, we did do the segment the next day as we intended. I spoke to Kevin Bonham, Vice President of Australian Chess Federation who outlined the history - white moving first was standardised in the 1880s , the reason - lots of things were standardised to make it easier to communicate about the game; and the suggestion that it had anything to do with race?
“Not really,” he said, “but the topic does come up and is discussed.”
John Adams said the same thing in one of his interviews while blasting us for broaching the topic.
If the topic comes up and is discussed, then I conclude it’s ok for us to discuss the topic.
At the conclusion of the on-air discussion , I made the following quip.
“Well, I think we can conclude that chess is not racist, it’s tradition and no more than that. But don’t worry we won’t rest there. Tomorrow I want to consider if the Key of C Major is racist. All those white keys on the piano what message does that send? And I think you’d have to say F Major with that one black key is somewhat tokenistic. We will also consider if liking Migaloo the White Whale is racist. All the other humpbacks are black but we single out that white one, don’t we? And finally I think Minties should come in black and white.”
This was delivered I like to think in a fairly heavy handed sarcastic tone and for those familiar with my program, I think they would have got the joke.
The Daily Telegraph the next day - we got two days coverage - wrote a summary of what we’d done on air, concluding with “Valentine also thinks that Minties are wrong because they are white.”
Talk about the killing the punchline.
At the end of it all, it was Breitbart news wrote a perfectly fair summary of what had occurred, saying “When Valentine went to air, he quickly made clear that they had approached Mr Adams to have a discussion not to brand chess as racist.”
Thank you.
So it’s true, there are more far more important things to consider than the pre-lash I dealt with this week. But it is in a context of constant attack on public broadcasting around the world. It does show that if anyone put an ideological framework over a simple inquiry from a radio producer it wasn’t us. And it illustrates how a story like this can be concocted and become a truth for many.
If this is what happens to my tiny tale, I despair of what might be done to something that actually matters.
Gwenno
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Gwenno »

Have we addressed the fact that the King is the most important, despite doing almost nothing, while the Queen is an all powerful multitasking super heroine, and gets little credit?
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ScarfaceClaw
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by ScarfaceClaw »

Piano keys. Absolute racist fuckers.
my 2 cents
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by my 2 cents »

ScarfaceClaw wrote:Piano keys. Absolute racist fuckers.
Living together in perfect harmony
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ScarfaceClaw
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by ScarfaceClaw »

my 2 cents wrote:
ScarfaceClaw wrote:Piano keys. Absolute racist fuckers.
Living together in perfect harmony
Side by side on the piano.
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Thomas
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Thomas »

guy smiley wrote:
THIS WAS MY WEEK.

The ABC claims that chess is racist. Actually, it didn’t. I did. Only I didn’t. Someone else said I was going to. But I hadn’t. And I was never going to.
This is likely to stay torturous.
We’ll start here.
On a Tuesday evening, Economist and Chess player John Adams put out this tweet.
“I just received a phone call from an ABC Sydney based producer seeking a comment about the game of chess. The ABC have taken the view that chess is RACIST given that white always go first! They are seeking comment from a chess official as to whether the rules of chess need to be altered.”
He continued, “Trust the taxpayer funded national broadcaster to apply ideological Marxist frameworks to anything and everything in Australia! With all the drama resulting from COVID-19, I am amazed that the ABC is broadcasting on irrelevant topics.”
By the next morning Mr Adams is in the Daily Telegraph, and then on all the commercial talk shows airing his views.
By the end of the day no less a chess grandee than Garry Kasparov has joined in, thundering about how nonsensical it was that at tax payer funded broadcaster would do such a thing, and by the end of the week it’s a story on Breitbart News.
So my program and my producers are pilloried around the world based on a statement made by someone else about a segment that hadn’t been broadcast.
We hadn’t done it yet.
Now this does all get a bit he said/I said and there’s no reason to particularly believe my chronology but I will put at least two things up in my defence.
It is very easy to find exactly what my radio show is all about. I direct you to some 60 episodes of Head Room, the podcast distilled from my weekday program. Here you will find me looking for Sydney Traffic Light Number One; determining why those who pronounce the eighth letter of the alphabet as ‘Aitch’ are so disturbed when someone pronounces it ‘Haitch’ - just two highlights from a long catalogue of quirky and hopefully amusing conversations with experts and callers.
These conversations have a serious purpose.
For over twenty years I’ve been broadcasting between the hours of 12.30 and 3.30 on ABC Radio Sydney. It’s a News/Talk station and I decided long ago that there were plenty of people doing the News and maybe I should do the Talk.
In this I’m following exactly the brief, purpose and I would say, the sacred mission of Talk Radio.
At many points through the day Talk Radio is about providing direct and accurate information. But at many others it is about providing company, solace and the sound of a friendly human voice for those who may be alone and would like to be amused, uplifted, stimulated, amazed and taken out of themselves.
This is not a trivial purpose. There are many who seek it and if they need it, they really need it.
Talk radio at this point is not a distraction or background noise. It’s a relationship.
When the nation was on fire, I broadcast news about the fire. That’s how I spent Black Summer.
When the floods followed only weeks after the smoke had cleared, I broadcast news about the floods.
When the sickness came and all was closed down, I didn’t talk about anything else.
But of late, I have returned to my usual mix; quirky, whimsical, funny, observational ideas drawn from my life, my listener’s life, my producer’s life, anywhere we can find something which might allow us to illuminate a little more of the human condition and amuse someone in a delivery van, or working in a back warehouse, or at home caring for elderly or young charges.
I do three hours a day, five days a week. There is a five minute news bulletin at the top of the hour, some thirty second promos, perhaps a music track. But otherwise we talk, fifty minutes in the hour.
There’s nothing on this earth we are not going to have a crack at.
My second item of evidence is the original tweet which sparked my interest.
I read a tweet from a father teaching his child chess. The child asked, “why does white always go first?” The father paused, aware of current cultural context and wondered exactly how to answer. He wondered if there was any racial background to the rule.
He posted and there followed an interesting and engaging thread of comments. Some ridiculed any notion of race, some went to the history books, some considered the question in the light of these times and the cultural and linguistic truth that white is always a positive and black always a negative.
I think: there’s a fifteen minute radio discussion. Why does white go first in chess, what is the history of that and ( here’s the important bit really ) given current cultural trends is there any discussion in chess circles about this?
I haven’t decided that chess is racist. I am not looking for someone to say that chess is racist.
I’m not saying chess people should be talking about this. I’m just wondering if they do.
I am looking to create some conversation that will be fresh, that will keep someone interested and that will tell us something more about our world and why it is the way it is.
My producer did exactly what producers should do. She sought out an expert and asked them for information.
Mr Adams said he was no longer very active in chess circles and suggested someone else that we could turn to.
Before we put anything to air, before we’d decided whether we’d put anything to air, Mr Adams declared that the ABC thought chess was racist and this was again our Marxist ideology at play.
There is always a tendency to talk of ‘the ABC.’ As though it is one thing. It’s not. It’s dozens of things. We are Triple J, Double J, ABC Classic and ABC Country. We are RN and Local Radio.
That’s six different radio and digital broadcasts right there. And Local Radio is sixty different radio stations across Australia, from Hobart to Darwin, from Broome to Cairns.
I’m on the Sydney one. Broadcasting to a Sydney audience, in the afternoon. While I’m doing that ABC News is still doing the news, Four Corners is four cornering, Bluey is being Bluey and Costa is doing whatever he does with compost.
To accuse the ABC of ignoring major and important events because of one segment that I’m doing makes as much sense as ripping into us because the ABC has a program that thinks it’s vital to tell Australians what day it is. We do have a program that does that. It’s called Playschool.
And as for the constant notion that we are still in thrall to Marx and work tirelessly to overthrow our capitalist oppressors? Please. I have a music degree. I barely know what Marxist ideology is.
So, we did do the segment the next day as we intended. I spoke to Kevin Bonham, Vice President of Australian Chess Federation who outlined the history - white moving first was standardised in the 1880s , the reason - lots of things were standardised to make it easier to communicate about the game; and the suggestion that it had anything to do with race?
“Not really,” he said, “but the topic does come up and is discussed.”
John Adams said the same thing in one of his interviews while blasting us for broaching the topic.
If the topic comes up and is discussed, then I conclude it’s ok for us to discuss the topic.
At the conclusion of the on-air discussion , I made the following quip.
“Well, I think we can conclude that chess is not racist, it’s tradition and no more than that. But don’t worry we won’t rest there. Tomorrow I want to consider if the Key of C Major is racist. All those white keys on the piano what message does that send? And I think you’d have to say F Major with that one black key is somewhat tokenistic. We will also consider if liking Migaloo the White Whale is racist. All the other humpbacks are black but we single out that white one, don’t we? And finally I think Minties should come in black and white.”
This was delivered I like to think in a fairly heavy handed sarcastic tone and for those familiar with my program, I think they would have got the joke.
The Daily Telegraph the next day - we got two days coverage - wrote a summary of what we’d done on air, concluding with “Valentine also thinks that Minties are wrong because they are white.”
Talk about the killing the punchline.
At the end of it all, it was Breitbart news wrote a perfectly fair summary of what had occurred, saying “When Valentine went to air, he quickly made clear that they had approached Mr Adams to have a discussion not to brand chess as racist.”
Thank you.
So it’s true, there are more far more important things to consider than the pre-lash I dealt with this week. But it is in a context of constant attack on public broadcasting around the world. It does show that if anyone put an ideological framework over a simple inquiry from a radio producer it wasn’t us. And it illustrates how a story like this can be concocted and become a truth for many.
If this is what happens to my tiny tale, I despair of what might be done to something that actually matters.
I read that this morning. It might come as no surprise that the chess guy is a right wing weirdo with some wonky economics agenda, who used to write for Murdoch and is also a massive "PC GORN MAD" bloke. Perhaps next time they should ask themselves if they want to hear what a complete farken loon has to say on the matter.
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Bokkom
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Bokkom »

Gwenno wrote:Have we addressed the fact that the King is the most important, despite doing almost nothing, while the Queen is an all powerful multitasking super heroine, and gets little credit?
Super heroine?
A bit bossy, IMO.
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Thomas
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Thomas »

Here's the Media Watch piece on this for anyone who is interested.

https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episo ... s/12427690
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Ted.
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Ted. »

backrow wrote:
Dark wrote:
backrow wrote:Pianos
Dominos
Zebras
Chocolate selection boxes
London cabs
Blind people sticks


Ban them all !!!
Cross words man

Why is it only the white squares that spell out words?

Are they saying the black squares can't read?
You need to change your username !
I need to change mine to Blackwoe
I just knew you had a serious lisp.
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Zakar
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Zakar »

So where we landed is that Brietbart is a higher standard of journalism than the Terrorgraph.
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Thomas
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Thomas »

Zakar wrote:So where we landed is that Brietbart is a higher standard of journalism than the Terrorgraph.
Prrreeeetty much.

And that John Adams chess guy is a serious playa in the "culture wars"
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Jerome Manning
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Jerome Manning »

Mahoney wrote:
Jerome Manning wrote:
JB1981 wrote:Pool. The black ball must go last; and we all know which ball is knocking the others around.
If you reverse it, then it is the black that gets smashed around and does all the dirty work, and the white gets to sit around waiting for all the glory at the end. You can't appease these people - absolutely everything, in every permutation, is racist in favour of whites.
This is rather lovely in microcosm. JB1981 makes up a previously non-existent racial critique which he doesn't agree with himself as part of the thread's rather laboured satire. Jerome Manning then makes up a previously non-existent racial critique of his own, and then projects both these fictional views onto those he disagrees with, justifying his dislike of them.
yeah, I agree my post was silly and I did regret hitting submit (I do realise that not a single person has complained of pool being racist...yet). However what I was trying to demonstrate was that if you desperately go looking for racism you will find it. These people do exist - they write for the Guardian.
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Short Man Syndrome
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by Short Man Syndrome »

Balance: white tea is not only completely unacceptable but it is insulting, offensive and likely to cause fights. Acorny-brown is about the limit.
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MungoMan
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Re: Chess. The personification of racism and"White Privilege

Post by MungoMan »

Short Man Syndrome wrote:Balance: white tea is not only completely unacceptable but it is insulting, offensive and likely to cause fights. Acorny-brown is about the limit.
Fair point. If black tea were truly such it would pour like treacle and taste like hades on a stick.
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