Melbourne. About to be fvcked again. Fvck you Sydney!

[shanky]

The thing is, our health system is no better, probably worse, than most western countries; our ability to track and trace, while better now, is still below par; our retirement villages and aged care facilities are still employing the same help in the same facilities. So, without a stringent and successful lockdown, we're as f**ked as the next f**ked place. Getting that across to the quarantine hoppers and open-it-up crowd hasn't be so successful that everyone is now pulling together and we can kick back and relax while enjoying the fruits of our labour.

NZ should be rightly extremely happy and proud about what has been achieved. We are very envious.

But I'm also not entirely sure we (on our Aussie focussed) thread, should have to put up with the 'tut-tut' or 'just asking questions' crowd about a political system none of us can do anything about.

(not you by the way - not aimed at you)

It's intensely fvcking annoying and I'm perfectly happy to call it out

[6.Jones]

There is degree of nationalism on all the Covid threads. I put it down to the lack of international sports and the inability to pretend to be out there on the field and in the showers with the boys [or girls if you're a netball tragic or heterosexual].

[Fat Old Git]

The thing is, our health system is no better, probably worse, than most western countries; our ability to track and trace, while better now, is still below par; our retirement villages and aged care facilities are still employing the same help in the same facilities. So, without a stringent and successful lockdown, we're as f**ked as the next f**ked place. Getting that across to the quarantine hoppers and open-it-up crowd hasn't be so successful that everyone is now pulling together and we can kick back and relax while enjoying the fruits of our labour.

NZ should be rightly extremely happy and proud about what has been achieved. We are very envious.

But I'm also not entirely sure we (on our Aussie focussed) thread, should have to put up with the 'tut-tut' or 'just asking questions' crowd about a political system none of us can do anything about.

(not you by the way - not aimed at you)

It's intensely fvcking annoying and I'm perfectly happy to call it out

You shouldn't have to put up with that crowd. And I think it mostly MB tbf. With most others either genuinely trying to understand the differences between our respective situations, or to share their own experiences.

Most of us want Oz, and everyone else, to beat this cnut of a thing. And the current situation in Melbourne has hammered home how fragile our own success is.

[usermame]

In one way the problems in Melbourne could be a lifesaver for us as NZ has been totally blase about any precautions. This is providing us with the wakeup call we needed - possible the same in other Oz states as well.

I know, it's been explained enough times, but I'm still gobsmacked countries can contemplate enduring a pandemic without a national strategy. Baffling.

I think the same when I look at NZ’s District Health Board set up and wonder the the f**k they could have been able or allowed to pursue individual standards regarding testing and treating for a global pandemic...

Right?

Right. They're already in the firing line for duplication of effort. I wasn't aware they set their own COVID standards.

[Ellafan]

In one way the problems in Melbourne could be a lifesaver for us as NZ has been totally blase about any precautions. This is providing us with the wakeup call we needed - possible the same in other Oz states as well.

I know, it's been explained enough times, but I'm still gobsmacked countries can contemplate enduring a pandemic without a national strategy. Baffling.

I think the same when I look at NZ’s District Health Board set up and wonder the the f**k they could have been able or allowed to pursue individual standards regarding testing and treating for a global pandemic...

Right?

Right. They're already in the firing line for duplication of effort. I wasn't aware they set their own COVID standards.

There are 15 Local Health Districts in NSW, 8 are in Sydney (and extend out a bit), 7 cover the rest of the state. That may be something roughly akin in population coverage to the NZ system. The covid standards for NSW are run by HQ in Sydney.

Apples and Oranges.

[towny]

One of the outcomes of COVID-19 pandemic has been to lay bare some of the challenges associated with our model of federation. The states are effectively responsible and accountable for all service provision. They are responsible for the medical response to the pandemic, and also for policing restrictions and lock-downs. The Federal government has very few responsibilities, but has access to almost all taxation revenue. This fiscal imbalance is arguably unsustainable into the future.

It’s no different than it was 120 years ago.

It is vastly different. You don’t know your taxation history.

1942.

I was wondering who would bring up WW2 and income tax. Its buggers up towny's point a trifle.

It rather did.

[Ted.]

The thing is, our health system is no better, probably worse, than most western countries; our ability to track and trace, while better now, is still below par; our retirement villages and aged care facilities are still employing the same help in the same facilities. So, without a stringent and successful lockdown, we're as f**ked as the next f**ked place. Getting that across to the quarantine hoppers and open-it-up crowd hasn't be so successful that everyone is now pulling together and we can kick back and relax while enjoying the fruits of our labour.

NZ should be rightly extremely happy and proud about what has been achieved. We are very envious.

But I'm also not entirely sure we (on our Aussie focussed) thread, should have to put up with the 'tut-tut' or 'just asking questions' crowd about a political system none of us can do anything about.

(not you by the way - not aimed at you)

It's intensely fvcking annoying and I'm perfectly happy to call it out

You shouldn't have to put up with that crowd. And I think it mostly MB tbf. With most others either genuinely trying to understand the differences between our respective situations, or to share their own experiences.

Most of us want Oz, and everyone else, to beat this cnut of a thing. And the current situation in Melbourne has hammered home how fragile our own success is.

Yep.

And yes, we are happy with our current situation, mostly. At least I am. There but for the grace of Colin Meads, go we. Our success is hard fought but remains fragile.

As for the Aussie politics side of things, I do wonder at nations that have states in this age of fast travel and communications. Not why you continue to have states (shit could you imagine trying to profoundly merge NSW and those other ugly brutes across the border?) just at the mechanics of it and how it would be so much more effective to put more responsibility on the national political system and politicians. There's also the fact that I am coming from a level of ignorance and relative satisfaction with our own unperfect scheme.

Mind, I do genuinely despair for the US.

Also, be thankful that Bimbot and the English hordes haven't infested your threads along with your armpits.

[towny]

I don’t know why people wonder about something that is so obviously self-evident.
Politicians will always focus resources on where they get the most political return. In Australia, the minerals are owned by the states - these minerals are mostly found in states with low populations. Guess where the money would all go if they got rid of state governments.

Governments are run by people that are guided to a degree by self interest. The day governments become run by truly benevolent people, is the day that Australia’s states should hand over the keys to the cookie jar.

[Sensible Stephen]

I don’t know why people wonder about something that is so obviously self-evident.
Politicians will always focus resources on where they get the most political return. In Australia, the minerals are owned by the states - these minerals are mostly found in states with low populations. Guess where the money would all go if they got rid of state governments.

Governments are run by people that are guided to a degree by self interest. The day governments become run by truly benevolent people, is the day that Australia’s states should hand over the keys to the cookie jar.

Yep, if you got rid of the states, places like Adelaide would become an irrelevance, like a Rockhampton or Emerald.

[Muttonbirds]

The thing is, our health system is no better, probably worse, than most western countries; our ability to track and trace, while better now, is still below par; our retirement villages and aged care facilities are still employing the same help in the same facilities. So, without a stringent and successful lockdown, we're as f**ked as the next f**ked place. Getting that across to the quarantine hoppers and open-it-up crowd hasn't be so successful that everyone is now pulling together and we can kick back and relax while enjoying the fruits of our labour.

NZ should be rightly extremely happy and proud about what has been achieved. We are very envious.

But I'm also not entirely sure we (on our Aussie focussed) thread, should have to put up with the 'tut-tut' or 'just asking questions' crowd about a political system none of us can do anything about.

(not you by the way - not aimed at you)

It's intensely fvcking annoying and I'm perfectly happy to call it out

You shouldn't have to put up with that crowd. And I think it mostly MB tbf. With most others either genuinely trying to understand the differences between our respective situations, or to share their own experiences.

Most of us want Oz, and everyone else, to beat this cnut of a thing. And the current situation in Melbourne has hammered home how fragile our own success is.

Get your hand off it, FOG. I've been clear about best health practice regarding Covid response. Health response first is what saves lives over dilution by accomodating economic concerns.

If you want to beat Covid, which I do clearly, then don't piss about with economic arguments before you actually have it out of the country.

FOG, you are a proud Centrist, I get that, but Centrists simply do not get anything done. A brick wall to progress.

[usermame]

In Australia, the minerals are owned by the states

Silly me. Of course when one cannot cherchez la femme one must follow the money...

[jdogscoop]

471 new cases today anticipated, so that is somewhat promising.
We wont have seen the effects of the stage 4 yet so hopefully in a week or two that will really drop.
The Australian claiming they have seen data and modelling that suggests it will get to 1200 cases a day and not drop until the end of August. Im hoping that is wrong.

It's the Oz, so it probably is.

[jdogscoop]

There is degree of nationalism on all the Covid threads. I put it down to the lack of international sports and the inability to pretend to be out there on the field and in the showers with the boys [or girls if you're a netball tragic or heterosexual].

I think you're right. I also think quite a few Kiwis with a low awareness of Australia don't get the federal system and how much power that gives the states to run the show when it comes to their COVID-19 response.

If it seems like they're sovereign, it's because the response is being very much driven at the state level.

That being said, there is a national cabinet and the same broad three stage plan for easing restrictions, with the Federal Government throwing its weight around as it sees fit. States are obviously at very different stages on that journey at the moment.

[Muttonbirds]

There is degree of nationalism on all the Covid threads. I put it down to the lack of international sports and the inability to pretend to be out there on the field and in the showers with the boys [or girls if you're a netball tragic or heterosexual].

I think you're right. I also think quite a few Kiwis with a low awareness of Australia don't get the federal system and how much power that gives the states to run the show when it comes to their COVID-19 response.

If it seems like they're sovereign, it's because the response is being very much driven at the state level.

That being said, there is a national cabinet and the same broad three stage plan for easing restrictions, with the Federal Government throwing its weight around as it sees fit. States are obviously at very different stages on that journey at the moment.

What a pathetic post. You are literally humping the comatose status quo of Federal pandemic response.

[jdogscoop]

There is degree of nationalism on all the Covid threads. I put it down to the lack of international sports and the inability to pretend to be out there on the field and in the showers with the boys [or girls if you're a netball tragic or heterosexual].

I think you're right. I also think quite a few Kiwis with a low awareness of Australia don't get the federal system and how much power that gives the states to run the show when it comes to their COVID-19 response.

If it seems like they're sovereign, it's because the response is being very much driven at the state level.

That being said, there is a national cabinet and the same broad three stage plan for easing restrictions, with the Federal Government throwing its weight around as it sees fit. States are obviously at very different stages on that journey at the moment.

What a pathetic post. You are literally humping the comatose status quo of Federal pandemic response.

Oh look, here's one now.

[Ellafan]

I don’t know why people wonder about something that is so obviously self-evident.
Politicians will always focus resources on where they get the most political return. In Australia, the minerals are owned by the states - these minerals are mostly found in states with low populations. Guess where the money would all go if they got rid of state governments.

Governments are run by people that are guided to a degree by self interest. The day governments become run by truly benevolent people, is the day that Australia’s states should hand over the keys to the cookie jar.

Yep, if you got rid of the states, places like Adelaide would become an irrelevance, like a Rockhampton or Emerald.

Partly disagree- you'd still get an annual cricket test

[Zakar]

I don’t know why people wonder about something that is so obviously self-evident.
Politicians will always focus resources on where they get the most political return. In Australia, the minerals are owned by the states - these minerals are mostly found in states with low populations. Guess where the money would all go if they got rid of state governments.

Governments are run by people that are guided to a degree by self interest. The day governments become run by truly benevolent people, is the day that Australia’s states should hand over the keys to the cookie jar.

Yep, if you got rid of the states, places like Adelaide would become an irrelevance, like a Rockhampton or Emerald.

Become?

[Blackrock Bullet]

I am struggling to understand this. We are past the 3 week mark for stage 3. And stage 3 was effective at getting the R down below one. But it hasn't this time? What hasn't worked?

Purely and simply its numbers.. Around 30th June when Victoria dipped back into level 3 there were around 300 odd active cases, Yesterday when level 4 was enacted there were 6500 active cases. I believe Victoria should have moved to level 4 in the 1st or 2nd week of July.

The daily increases in early July were only going one way, instead its looking more and more likely Victoria could potentially be under level 4 restrictions till late October or early November. All hindsight of course but dig in for a long one.

I see c. 20% of cases are in aged care facilities. That is sadly where a lot of the deaths will come from. Victoria had several months to sort it out in those facilities and didn't, that seems to be the real failure here.

[jdogscoop]

The real issue is the hotel quarantine disaster.

The casual workforce paid to "guard" the hotels were infected by guests and took the virus to the outlying suburbs, where they then infected many of their equally low paid families. Many of these people work in aged care.

Victoria's second wave then blew out from there.

I would say at least 50% of the deaths we are seeing at the moment are from aged care facilities, going by Premier Andrews' remarks in his press conferences.

[Blackrock Bullet]

The failure in the hotel was kind of inevitable though. Humans make mistakes. Outbreaks are inevitable, Vietnam were the shining light for months and had one. New Zealand got lucky with their mess up, their location means they are less likely to happen again, but again we have to ask how sustainable it is.

By the sounds of things, there was a total failure across multiple aged care facilities. I don't think you can forgive that given there were was learned experience of it. Back in March and April is one thing, not now. You have to protect at risk sections as best is possible.

[MungoMan]

The real issue is the hotel quarantine disaster.

The casual workforce paid to "guard" the hotels were infected by guests and took the virus to the outlying suburbs, where they then infected many of their equally low paid families. Many of these people work in aged care.

Victoria's second wave then blew out from there.

I would say at least 50% of the deaths we are seeing at the moment are from aged care facilities, going by Premier Andrews' remarks in his press conferences.

Unless our little mate from the other side of the world has better genomic study evidence that Vic Health, I'm taking it as fact that the preceding and present Vic outbreaks featured differing strains of the virus.

The virus didn't hide behind the fridge in an old folks home for weeks on end then leap out on unsuspecting passers-by; it flew, in sat around a bit, left hotel quarantine, travelled home with security then travelled to school with younger relos, etc etc.

[Blackrock Bullet]

The real issue is the hotel quarantine disaster.

The casual workforce paid to "guard" the hotels were infected by guests and took the virus to the outlying suburbs, where they then infected many of their equally low paid families. Many of these people work in aged care.

Victoria's second wave then blew out from there.

I would say at least 50% of the deaths we are seeing at the moment are from aged care facilities, going by Premier Andrews' remarks in his press conferences.

Unless our little mate from the other side of the world has better genomic study evidence that Vic Health, I'm taking it as fact that the preceding and present Vic outbreaks featured differing strains of the virus.

The virus didn't hide behind the fridge in an old folks home for weeks on end then leap out on unsuspecting passers-by; it flew, in sat around a bit, left hotel quarantine, travelled home with security then travelled to school with younger relos, etc etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7iTjZlFmbE

Just going by the above and also this. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53633356

The countries that have low(er) death rates have handled aged care facilities the best. This seems to be a glaring failure. All countries have had this but Victoria had additional time to deal with it follow the initial outbreak.

I'd fully accept that there will be other failures there along the way, this seems really poor though.

[Ali's Choice]

The countries that have low(er) death rates have handled aged care facilities the best. This seems to be a glaring failure. All countries have had this but Victoria had additional time to deal with it follow the initial outbreak.

I'd fully accept that there will be other failures there along the way, this seems really poor though.

Which countries with lower death rates should Australia be aspiring to emulate?

[Blackrock Bullet]

The countries that have low(er) death rates have handled aged care facilities the best. This seems to be a glaring failure. All countries have had this but Victoria had additional time to deal with it follow the initial outbreak.

I'd fully accept that there will be other failures there along the way, this seems really poor though.

Which countries with lower death rates should Australia be aspiring to emulate?

Australia seems to have done a great job overall, don't get me wrong. This just seems like a particular failure. I have no interest in pissing battles on country or regional performances thus far -interested in seeing how all places have tackled this and what works where.

[Ellafan]

The countries that have low(er) death rates ...

Define "death rate"?

Ireland - population 4.904 millions - confirmed cases - 26,303; deaths 1,763

Australia - population 24.99 millions - confirmed cases - 19,862; deaths 255

It's difficult to see what point you could possibly be trying to make against the Australian approach.

[grievous]

I don’t know why people wonder about something that is so obviously self-evident.
Politicians will always focus resources on where they get the most political return. In Australia, the minerals are owned by the states - these minerals are mostly found in states with low populations. Guess where the money would all go if they got rid of state governments.

Governments are run by people that are guided to a degree by self interest. The day governments become run by truly benevolent people, is the day that Australia’s states should hand over the keys to the cookie jar.

Yep, if you got rid of the states, places like Adelaide would become an irrelevance, like a Rockhampton or Emerald.

Become?

Oooh that east coast smugness

[Ali's Choice]

Ireland - population 4.904 millions - confirmed cases - 26,303; deaths 1,763

My goodness, that's a smaller population than the state of QLD, yet we've only had 1088 confirmed cases and 6 deaths. And we have the same aged care laws as Victoria.

[Ellafan]

The failure in the hotel was kind of inevitable though. Humans make mistakes. Outbreaks are inevitable,

That by the way is also apologist bullshit - the mistake was having policing duties performed by ill disciplined, un-educated security guards, when disciplined ADF personnel were available to do it - with physical fraternisation prohibited under threat of military discipline.

At the conclusion of the current judicial enquiry, the minister responsible for that decision will have to fall on her/his sword in traditional Westminster fashion. If Dan Andrews made it then he will have to take responsibility. It is a decision which has cost Victoria (and Australia) billions; many small and medium business owners are right now, today, after the lock down at 0000 hrs this morning filing their winding up applications on line, because as directors they have a duty not to trade insolvent. That means in turn, people are being put out of work, and will lose their homes. The rates of bankruptcy, domestic violence, and suicide in Victoria are about to increase, and I would suggest there will be more suicides than covid deaths.

So can you please take your "inevitability' crap, turn it sideways, and jam it firmly where the sun don't shine.

[jdogscoop]

The failure in the hotel was kind of inevitable though. Humans make mistakes. Outbreaks are inevitable,

That by the way is also apologist bullshit - the mistake was having policing duties performed by ill disciplined, un-educated security guards, when disciplined ADF personnel were available to do it - with physical fraternisation prohibited under threat of military discipline.

At the conclusion of the current judicial enquiry, the minister responsible for that decision will have to fall on her/his sword in traditional Westminster fashion. If Dan Andrews made it then he will have to take responsibility. It is a decision which has cost Victoria (and Australia) billions; many small and medium business owners are right now, today, after the lock down at 0000 hrs this morning filing their winding up applications on line, because as directors they have a duty not to trade insolvent. That means in turn, people are being put out of work, and will lose their homes. The rates of bankruptcy, domestic violence, and suicide in Victoria are about to increase, and I would suggest their will be more suicides than covid deaths.

So can you please take your "inevitability' crap, turn it sideways, and jam it firmly where the sun don't shine.

If I was running a book, the order of odds would run as follows (favourite first). Assume a fair amount of daylight between them.

1. Martin Pakula

Trackwork: Mr Pakula’s Department of Jobs, Precincts and Regions hired three security companies to provide guards for the quarantine hotels after the state government’s bureaucracy was given just 24 hours.

2. Jenny Mikakos

Trackwork: "It was a national cabinet decision and following that, there were arrangements put in place that were put up very, very quickly, involving many agencies," the Health Minister said.

3. Lisa Neville

Trackwork: At least five state government departments were involved in the decision to deploy private security guards, instead of soldiers or police, to keep watch over returned travellers locked in hotel rooms. The exact role of the departments and their ministers - [including] Police Minister Lisa Neville...remains unclear.

4. Dan Andrews

Trackwork: "I am the leader of this government and I take responsibility and have accountability for these and all matters," the Premier said.

With thanks to The Age.

[Ali's Choice]

The failure in the hotel was kind of inevitable though. Humans make mistakes. Outbreaks are inevitable,

That by the way is also apologist bullshit - the mistake was having policing duties performed by ill disciplined, un-educated security guards, when disciplined ADF personnel were available to do it - with physical fraternisation prohibited under threat of military discipline.

At the conclusion of the current judicial enquiry, the minister responsible for that decision will have to fall on her/his sword in traditional Westminster fashion. If Dan Andrews made it then he will have to take responsibility. It is a decision which has cost Victoria (and Australia) billions; many small and medium business owners are right now, today, after the lock down at 0000 hrs this morning filing their winding up applications on line, because as directors they have a duty not to trade insolvent. That means in turn, people are being put out of work, and will lose their homes. The rates of bankruptcy, domestic violence, and suicide in Victoria are about to increase, and I would suggest there will be more suicides than covid deaths.

So can you please take your "inevitability' crap, turn it sideways, and jam it firmly where the sun don't shine.

ScoMo has re-written the rule book and ministerial accountability no longer applies in the Australian context.

[Mr Mike]

Ireland - population 4.904 millions - confirmed cases - 26,303; deaths 1,763

My goodness, that's a smaller population than the state of QLD, yet we've only had 1088 confirmed cases and 6 deaths. And we have the same aged care laws as Victoria.

Lower population and craic density per sq mile?

Not sure how to explain what’s happened here.

[Ellafan]

The failure in the hotel was kind of inevitable though. Humans make mistakes. Outbreaks are inevitable,

That by the way is also apologist bullshit - the mistake was having policing duties performed by ill disciplined, un-educated security guards, when disciplined ADF personnel were available to do it - with physical fraternisation prohibited under threat of military discipline.

At the conclusion of the current judicial enquiry, the minister responsible for that decision will have to fall on her/his sword in traditional Westminster fashion. If Dan Andrews made it then he will have to take responsibility. It is a decision which has cost Victoria (and Australia) billions; many small and medium business owners are right now, today, after the lock down at 0000 hrs this morning filing their winding up applications on line, because as directors they have a duty not to trade insolvent. That means in turn, people are being put out of work, and will lose their homes. The rates of bankruptcy, domestic violence, and suicide in Victoria are about to increase, and I would suggest there will be more suicides than covid deaths.

So can you please take your "inevitability' crap, turn it sideways, and jam it firmly where the sun don't shine.

ScoMo has re-written the rule book and ministerial accountability no longer applies in the Australian context.

Dan Andrews gave a presser today (I watched it live, not the sculptured ABC version shown later), deferred conclusions to the enquiry - and at one stage confirmed there needed to be accountability - including by him. And, he was wearing a suit I do have some nice ties that would match it, though - perhaps I should send him one.

[Blackrock Bullet]

The failure in the hotel was kind of inevitable though. Humans make mistakes. Outbreaks are inevitable,

That by the way is also apologist bullshit - the mistake was having policing duties performed by ill disciplined, un-educated security guards, when disciplined ADF personnel were available to do it - with physical fraternisation prohibited under threat of military discipline.

At the conclusion of the current judicial enquiry, the minister responsible for that decision will have to fall on her/his sword in traditional Westminster fashion. If Dan Andrews made it then he will have to take responsibility. It is a decision which has cost Victoria (and Australia) billions; many small and medium business owners are right now, today, after the lock down at 0000 hrs this morning filing their winding up applications on line, because as directors they have a duty not to trade insolvent. That means in turn, people are being put out of work, and will lose their homes. The rates of bankruptcy, domestic violence, and suicide in Victoria are about to increase, and I would suggest there will be more suicides than covid deaths.

So can you please take your "inevitability' crap, turn it sideways, and jam it firmly where the sun don't shine.

Yes it’s a failure, but you have to look at it in the overall context. I would absolutely say it was inevitable. Other countries with authoritarian/strict regimes and stricter rules have had outbreaks recently too, like Hong Kong, China and Vietnam.

Other countries have had failures as above and managed to control the outbreaks. That would seem to be a bigger failure to me, not being able to recognise and stop an outbreak getting worse. Perhaps that requires the level 4 lockdown suggested above.

I would county 100 care homes with outbreaks as 100 failures, that would be a biggest failure to me.

[Blackrock Bullet]

The countries that have low(er) death rates ...

Define "death rate"?

Ireland - population 4.904 millions - confirmed cases - 26,303; deaths 1,763

Australia - population 24.99 millions - confirmed cases - 19,862; deaths 255

It's difficult to see what point you could possibly be trying to make against the Australian approach.

Again, I don’t care about a pissing contest.

Ireland absolutely failed on care homes. As did lots of other countries. But that was in the context of March/April with far less understanding and resourcing. I don’t think it’s acceptable to have the same problems now.

I am also very critical of the current Irish approach. Again, it isn’t a pissing contest here. I just think that you all slightly miss the point on the hotels, it is absolutely a failure, but look big picture. Almost all countries that have closed their borders hard like Oz have ended up with outbreaks. Hong Kong were sending people into these facilities in April and look at the outbreak there in recent weeks. You have to be prepared for the worst and to protect at risk groups at this point. You can’t have an outbreak of 150+ cases in one facility and have things like delayed testing results and collation of reports as an issue. It just isn’t acceptable at this point.

[shanky]

My attempts to maintain some degree of national unity being undermined somewhat by AC’s loyalty to the Red Flag, wherein only Labor governments can solve national short term problems.

[Ellafan]

The failure in the hotel was kind of inevitable though. Humans make mistakes. Outbreaks are inevitable,

That by the way is also apologist bullshit - the mistake was having policing duties performed by ill disciplined, un-educated security guards, when disciplined ADF personnel were available to do it - with physical fraternisation prohibited under threat of military discipline.

At the conclusion of the current judicial enquiry, the minister responsible for that decision will have to fall on her/his sword in traditional Westminster fashion. If Dan Andrews made it then he will have to take responsibility. It is a decision which has cost Victoria (and Australia) billions; many small and medium business owners are right now, today, after the lock down at 0000 hrs this morning filing their winding up applications on line, because as directors they have a duty not to trade insolvent. That means in turn, people are being put out of work, and will lose their homes. The rates of bankruptcy, domestic violence, and suicide in Victoria are about to increase, and I would suggest there will be more suicides than covid deaths.

So can you please take your "inevitability' crap, turn it sideways, and jam it firmly where the sun don't shine.

Yes it’s a failure, but you have to look at it in the overall context. I would absolutely say it was inevitable. Other countries with authoritarian/strict regimes and stricter rules have had outbreaks recently too, like Hong Kong, China and Vietnam.

Other countries have had failures as above and managed to control the outbreaks. That would seem to be a bigger failure to me, not being able to recognise and stop an outbreak getting worse. Perhaps that requires the level 4 lockdown suggested above.

I would county 100 care homes with outbreaks as 100 failures, that would be a biggest failure to me.

Would I be correct in inferring that you have some sort of public service, or large corporate (including lefty media), employment role, and have no experience of being a small business proprietor/manager/worker in the private sector, where you actually have to get things right to make a buck and survive?

That is the overall context.

[Ali's Choice]

My attempts to maintain some degree of national unity being undermined somewhat by AC’s loyalty to the Red Flag, wherein only Labor governments can solve national short term problems.

Oops, wrong log in.

[rett]

My attempts to maintain some degree of national unity being undermined somewhat by AC’s loyalty to the Red Flag, wherein only Labor governments can solve national short term problems.

Like WW2?

[Ellafan]

My attempts to maintain some degree of national unity being undermined somewhat by AC’s loyalty to the Red Flag, wherein only Labor governments can solve national short term problems.

Oops, wrong log in.

No worries all sorted.

[shanky]

Just by the way...

Can we all agree that real people are dying here?

Who cares who is ‘right’? Not a single fvcking person has a monopoly on truth or ‘right’.

I think ‘we’ are doing the best we can. I don’t like Dan’s politics, but I feel for the poor bugger when I see those photos of him suffering. Not to mention the illness and death. I’d be happy for him to defeat this if it meant that he’d defeated this.