Melbourne. UnFvcked. Almost

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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

trapper wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:25 am Isnt it over 50% of Victoria deaths directly attributed to Federal Government run aged care homes, is any blame apportioned to the Fed government or does Andrews wear that as well? Just asking out of curiosity?
Take a look at this graphic and then see if you can work it out:

Image
Last edited by Clogs on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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trapper
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by trapper »

Ogre wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:44 am
trapper wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:25 am Isnt it over 50% of Victoria deaths directly attributed to Federal Government run aged care homes, is any blame apportioned to the Fed government or does Andrews wear that as well? Just asking out of curiosity?
My understanding, which may be wrong, is that the Federal government runs the aged care homes (poorly) but the initial infection was from someone who contracted the rona from the quarantine debacle. It all seems to come back to not being able to organise a piss up in a brewery and then political side steps and throwing someone under the bus rather than accepting what happened, fixing it then allocating accountability.

There is also evidence that the strains of plague can in almost all cases can be directly traced back to the quarantine hotel (note evidence means an article I read and can't remember where so happy for experts to provide counter points and corrections)
Ok, so it’s all Dans fault with no need to hold the Fed Government to account for the deaths in their own facilities. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Ogre
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ogre »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:17 am
Ogre wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:44 am My understanding, which may be wrong, is that the Federal government runs the aged care homes (poorly) but the initial infection was from someone who contracted the rona from the quarantine debacle.
So using your argument it's not actually Dan's fault, it's the Mayor of Wuhan who should be sacked, because that was the "initial infection"?
Not even close. My clearly stated (repeatedly) argument is that ultimate accountability for the 2nd wave in Victoria rests with the premier. His government ran the quarantine facility that was so poorly managed the plague escaped and caused all the associated issues. That should have been pretty damn clear by now, hopefully this is just a cheeky trolling attempt by you rather than a genunine inability to understand my point.
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Ogre
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ogre »

trapper wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:29 am
Ogre wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:44 am
trapper wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:25 am Isnt it over 50% of Victoria deaths directly attributed to Federal Government run aged care homes, is any blame apportioned to the Fed government or does Andrews wear that as well? Just asking out of curiosity?
My understanding, which may be wrong, is that the Federal government runs the aged care homes (poorly) but the initial infection was from someone who contracted the rona from the quarantine debacle. It all seems to come back to not being able to organise a piss up in a brewery and then political side steps and throwing someone under the bus rather than accepting what happened, fixing it then allocating accountability.

There is also evidence that the strains of plague can in almost all cases can be directly traced back to the quarantine hotel (note evidence means an article I read and can't remember where so happy for experts to provide counter points and corrections)
Ok, so it’s all Dans fault with no need to hold the Fed Government to account for the deaths in their own facilities. Thanks for clearing that up.
Nope. There it is not all Dictator Dans fault. Accountability by the truckload though.

Have you and AC decieded to have a wee troll love in on the fred? :P
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

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Ogre wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:44 am
trapper wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:25 am Isnt it over 50% of Victoria deaths directly attributed to Federal Government run aged care homes, is any blame apportioned to the Fed government or does Andrews wear that as well? Just asking out of curiosity?
My understanding, which may be wrong, is that the Federal government runs the aged care homes (poorly) but the initial infection was from someone who contracted the rona from the quarantine debacle. It all seems to come back to not being able to organise a piss up in a brewery and then political side steps and throwing someone under the bus rather than accepting what happened, fixing it then allocating accountability.

There is also evidence that the strains of plague can in almost all cases can be directly traced back to the quarantine hotel (note evidence means an article I read and can't remember where so happy for experts to provide counter points and corrections)
Its a little more complex than that as most things are. As I understand it, quarantine is a federal responsibility through the health ministry. The feds palmed this off to the states with comparatively little time to implement (I had read it was a few days but could be wrong). The states implemented, and a number of states engaged private security guards. Vic was one. NSW was another. The Vic version, the company engaged palmed it on to subbies who palmed it on to subbies, all taking a cut, until the bloke actually hired got some loose change found down the back of the sofa. They then weren't adequately trained and relented when people complained about being locked away. Dan Andrew's issue is that he and the leadership team looked away once they engaged the contractor. There was no oversight over that contractor. Ultimately that should filter to Dan Andrews (but then it could just as much filter to the federal health minister) as the overall head - CEOs are often rolled for things like this and rightly so. But given the circumstances I am a little more lenient. Its a once in a generation pandemic and his focus was needed in many many places. They probably thought "well, that issue is closed, next" which is why most of the reactions from Dand Andrews and Brett Sutton is "I didnt realise that was happening." Good leaders are across it in normal times, these arent normal times.

I am a little lost on Peta Credlin's campaign to pin who knew what on the decision for private security guards. Its not a gotcha item, many states did it, and its a perfectly reasonable solution.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ellafan »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:15 am

Posters have demanded Dan be charged with murder. Of course it's a crazy demand, but the people calling for Andrews to be sacked are crazy.
Which posters?
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trapper
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by trapper »

Ogre wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:24 am
trapper wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:29 am
Ogre wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:44 am
trapper wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:25 am Isnt it over 50% of Victoria deaths directly attributed to Federal Government run aged care homes, is any blame apportioned to the Fed government or does Andrews wear that as well? Just asking out of curiosity?
My understanding, which may be wrong, is that the Federal government runs the aged care homes (poorly) but the initial infection was from someone who contracted the rona from the quarantine debacle. It all seems to come back to not being able to organise a piss up in a brewery and then political side steps and throwing someone under the bus rather than accepting what happened, fixing it then allocating accountability.

There is also evidence that the strains of plague can in almost all cases can be directly traced back to the quarantine hotel (note evidence means an article I read and can't remember where so happy for experts to provide counter points and corrections)
Ok, so it’s all Dans fault with no need to hold the Fed Government to account for the deaths in their own facilities. Thanks for clearing that up.
Nope. There it is not all Dictator Dans fault. Accountability by the truckload though.

Have you and AC decieded to have a wee troll love in on the fred? :P
Not at all, I find it interesting that Andrews has to be held to account but apparently Colbeck and the Morrison government do not, from what I can tell, they haven’t even been in the conversation in regards to accountability on this thread. Carry on.
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

What on earth is Clogs going to harp on about after the lockdown?

Lots of whataboutery - always the way when something horrific like this occurs.
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Ogre
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ogre »

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am What on earth is Clogs going to harp on about after the lockdown?

Lots of whataboutery - always the way when something horrific like this occurs.
I would put my money on how shit the sharks are or how gaylords isn't available for indoor dining? Maybe a sweepstakes to see who gets closer. The real question is which fred is AC going balls deep on trolling someone.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Farva »

Ogre wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:29 am
Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am What on earth is Clogs going to harp on about after the lockdown?

Lots of whataboutery - always the way when something horrific like this occurs.
I would put my money on how shit the sharks are or how gaylords isn't available for indoor dining? Maybe a sweepstakes to see who gets closer. The real question is which fred is AC going balls deep on trolling someone.
Gaylords is closed mate. Proper closed, not Covid closed.
I walked past it before lockdown and nearly cried.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ogre »

Farva wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:57 am
Ogre wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:29 am
Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am What on earth is Clogs going to harp on about after the lockdown?

Lots of whataboutery - always the way when something horrific like this occurs.
I would put my money on how shit the sharks are or how gaylords isn't available for indoor dining? Maybe a sweepstakes to see who gets closer. The real question is which fred is AC going balls deep on trolling someone.
Gaylords is closed mate. Proper closed, not Covid closed.
I walked past it before lockdown and nearly cried.
Will this year not stop taking all that is beloved in the world. :x

Next thing you know the bokke will pull out of the rugby championship cos they are scared . . . :twisted:
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

Farva wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:57 am
Ogre wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:29 am
Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am What on earth is Clogs going to harp on about after the lockdown?

Lots of whataboutery - always the way when something horrific like this occurs.
I would put my money on how shit the sharks are or how gaylords isn't available for indoor dining? Maybe a sweepstakes to see who gets closer. The real question is which fred is AC going balls deep on trolling someone.
Gaylords is closed mate. Proper closed, not Covid closed.
I walked past it before lockdown and nearly cried.
I have caballed there :|
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am What on earth is Clogs going to harp on about after the lockdown?

Lots of whataboutery - always the way when something horrific like this occurs.
I will find something. Most likely the haka.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

Many proud of your commitment :thumbup:
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:29 am
Farva wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:57 am
Ogre wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:29 am
Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am What on earth is Clogs going to harp on about after the lockdown?

Lots of whataboutery - always the way when something horrific like this occurs.
I would put my money on how shit the sharks are or how gaylords isn't available for indoor dining? Maybe a sweepstakes to see who gets closer. The real question is which fred is AC going balls deep on trolling someone.
Gaylords is closed mate. Proper closed, not Covid closed.
I walked past it before lockdown and nearly cried.
I have caballed there :|
You, the Melbourne Cabal is best Cabal (several times) HKCockjock? and several other interstate visitors too (Waratah? Some other bloke from NSW that was cracking on to Dumbledore?)
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Farva »

Clogs wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:32 am
Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am What on earth is Clogs going to harp on about after the lockdown?

Lots of whataboutery - always the way when something horrific like this occurs.
I will find something. Most likely the haka.
Its important to find things like this that will bring us together in these unprecedented times. If you want to launch into a diatribe about silly dances, Ill offer my full support.
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

I brought several ring ins from work.

A Kiwi, a PoM and an Aussie
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:36 am I brought several ring ins from work.

A Kiwi, a PoM and an Aussie
Gaylords is best Gaylord. Fact.
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Farva wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:36 am
Clogs wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:32 am
Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am What on earth is Clogs going to harp on about after the lockdown?

Lots of whataboutery - always the way when something horrific like this occurs.
I will find something. Most likely the haka.
Its important to find things like this that will bring us together in these unprecedented times. If you want to launch into a diatribe about silly dances, Ill offer my full support.
Common ground. So important. Ogre where you at on this one?
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MungoMan
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by MungoMan »

Clogs wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:55 am
Farva wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:36 am
Clogs wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:32 am
Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am What on earth is Clogs going to harp on about after the lockdown?

Lots of whataboutery - always the way when something horrific like this occurs.
I will find something. Most likely the haka.
Its important to find things like this that will bring us together in these unprecedented times. If you want to launch into a diatribe about silly dances, Ill offer my full support.
Common ground. So important. Ogre where you at on this one?
He’s in a bad place.

The Grauniad just ran this story:
Andrews tells Ogre ‘Stay inside you yeti-looking motherf*ck!’
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

MungoMan wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:09 am
Clogs wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:55 am
Farva wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:36 am
Clogs wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:32 am
Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am What on earth is Clogs going to harp on about after the lockdown?

Lots of whataboutery - always the way when something horrific like this occurs.
I will find something. Most likely the haka.
Its important to find things like this that will bring us together in these unprecedented times. If you want to launch into a diatribe about silly dances, Ill offer my full support.
Common ground. So important. Ogre where you at on this one?
He’s in a bad place.

The Grauniad just ran this story:
Andrews tells Ogre ‘Stay inside you yeti-looking motherf*ck!’
So he still hasn't got his hair cut?
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Ogre
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ogre »

I will find something. Most likely the haka.
[/quote]

Its important to find things like this that will bring us together in these unprecedented times. If you want to launch into a diatribe about silly dances, Ill offer my full support.
[/quote]

Common ground. So important. Ogre where you at on this one?
[/quote]
He’s in a bad place.

The Grauniad just ran this story:
Andrews tells Ogre ‘Stay inside you yeti-looking motherf*ck!’
[/quote]

I resemble that comment :x though had a shave and look 15 years younger (so about 50 years younger than mungoman).
I think Clogs should start the search for a new Cabal Curry House, giving us all the details and rants about sub standard naan and reasons why its not as good as gaylords.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ali's Choice »

What amuses me is the hypocrisy of the federal govt.

WA and QLD have been attacked on a daily basis for since March for closing their borders, whilst the Liberal States of Tasmania and South Australia were left alone despite also closing their borders.

Victoria has had 12 x the number of deaths as NSW and has been savaged by the federal govt. NSW has 10 x as many deaths as QLD but is apparently the gold standard for all other states to aspire to.

Scott Morrison's government will be remembered for playing petty political games during the global COVID-19 pandemic.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ellafan »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:36 am yada yada yada
You need some new material.
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:36 am What amuses me is the hypocrisy of the federal govt.

WA and QLD have been attacked on a daily basis for since March for closing their borders, whilst the Liberal States of Tasmania and South Australia were left alone despite also closing their borders.

Victoria has had 12 x the number of deaths as NSW and has been savaged by the federal govt. NSW has 10 x as many deaths as QLD but is apparently the gold standard for all other states to aspire to.

Scott Morrison's government will be remembered for playing petty political games during the global COVID-19 pandemic.

Ok how about a duck? If he fvcked a duck would you still support him?
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ali's Choice »

Clogs wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:20 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:36 am What amuses me is the hypocrisy of the federal govt.

WA and QLD have been attacked on a daily basis for since March for closing their borders, whilst the Liberal States of Tasmania and South Australia were left alone despite also closing their borders.

Victoria has had 12 x the number of deaths as NSW and has been savaged by the federal govt. NSW has 10 x as many deaths as QLD but is apparently the gold standard for all other states to aspire to.

Scott Morrison's government will be remembered for playing petty political games during the global COVID-19 pandemic.

Ok how about a duck? If he fvcked a duck would you still support him?
Is this the level of trolling that you've been reduced to?
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:40 pm
Clogs wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:20 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:36 am What amuses me is the hypocrisy of the federal govt.

WA and QLD have been attacked on a daily basis for since March for closing their borders, whilst the Liberal States of Tasmania and South Australia were left alone despite also closing their borders.

Victoria has had 12 x the number of deaths as NSW and has been savaged by the federal govt. NSW has 10 x as many deaths as QLD but is apparently the gold standard for all other states to aspire to.

Scott Morrison's government will be remembered for playing petty political games during the global COVID-19 pandemic.

Ok how about a duck? If he fvcked a duck would you still support him?
Is this the level of trolling that you've been reduced to?
It's the level of response your trolling deserves.
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Farva
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Farva »

Clogs wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:20 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:36 am What amuses me is the hypocrisy of the federal govt.

WA and QLD have been attacked on a daily basis for since March for closing their borders, whilst the Liberal States of Tasmania and South Australia were left alone despite also closing their borders.

Victoria has had 12 x the number of deaths as NSW and has been savaged by the federal govt. NSW has 10 x as many deaths as QLD but is apparently the gold standard for all other states to aspire to.

Scott Morrison's government will be remembered for playing petty political games during the global COVID-19 pandemic.

Ok how about a duck? If he fvcked a duck would you still support him?
That was a hey hey it’s Saturday segment wasn’t it?
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Farva wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:40 am
Clogs wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:20 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:36 am What amuses me is the hypocrisy of the federal govt.

WA and QLD have been attacked on a daily basis for since March for closing their borders, whilst the Liberal States of Tasmania and South Australia were left alone despite also closing their borders.

Victoria has had 12 x the number of deaths as NSW and has been savaged by the federal govt. NSW has 10 x as many deaths as QLD but is apparently the gold standard for all other states to aspire to.

Scott Morrison's government will be remembered for playing petty political games during the global COVID-19 pandemic.

Ok how about a duck? If he fvcked a duck would you still support him?
That was a hey hey it’s Saturday segment wasn’t it?
Not sure. I am a humble immigrant so I didn't get to see those great shows.
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

So, it is a public holiday down here in the Great State of Victoria.

What are all you Melburnians up to? Anyone off to a BBQ at a mates place? Off to a nice restaurant? Catching up for froffy's at a local watering hole? Out and about shopping? Going to the races tonight (Manikato) or tomorrow (Cox Plate)? Who has a big Grand Final party planned?

Anyone?
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ali's Choice »

Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:47 am So, it is a public holiday down here in the Great State of Victoria.

What are all you Melburnians up to? Anyone off to a BBQ at a mates place? Off to a nice restaurant? Catching up for froffy's at a local watering hole? Out and about shopping? Going to the races tonight (Manikato) or tomorrow (Cox Plate)? Who has a big Grand Final party planned?

Anyone?
Image
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Farva
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Farva »

Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:47 am So, it is a public holiday down here in the Great State of Victoria.

What are all you Melburnians up to? Anyone off to a BBQ at a mates place? Off to a nice restaurant? Catching up for froffy's at a local watering hole? Out and about shopping? Going to the races tonight (Manikato) or tomorrow (Cox Plate)? Who has a big Grand Final party planned?

Anyone?
Not me.
On the plus side I didnt get Covid today either.
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Ogre
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ogre »

Risking my life getting fish and chips before settling in and watching some npc. I also have not caught the rona, so far :uhoh:
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Today's latest outbreak shows we are about a 1 in 5 million chance of catching it at the moment.
Co- incidentally about the same chance as the Wallabies beating the All Blacks. Ominous?

Stay home stay safe bros. Please don't take any unnecessary risks between now and Sunday.
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Ogre
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ogre »

One note from wandering into the great unwashed in werribee, the number of filthy smokers with their masks off breathing out filthy smoke and rona is astonishing. The cops could have made a few grand simply by hitting each of the self centred plum with 5k fines for being a selfish plum :x fudge I hate smoking in public places :x :x :x :x :x :x
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MungoMan
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by MungoMan »

Ogre wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:08 am One note from wandering into the great unwashed in werribee, the number of filthy smokers with their masks off breathing out filthy smoke and rona is astonishing. The cops could have made a few grand simply by hitting each of the self centred plum with 5k fines for being a selfish plum :x fudge I hate smoking in public places :x :x :x :x :x :x
TBF, that is pretty gross and antisocial. The demasked smokers, I mean, not you.






I cannot believe I just typed that. :shock:
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

MungoMan wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:41 am
Ogre wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:08 am One note from wandering into the great unwashed in werribee, the number of filthy smokers with their masks off breathing out filthy smoke and rona is astonishing. The cops could have made a few grand simply by hitting each of the self centred plum with 5k fines for being a selfish plum :x fudge I hate smoking in public places :x :x :x :x :x :x
TBF, that is pretty gross and antisocial. The demasked smokers, I mean, not you.






I cannot believe I just typed that. :shock:


I for one am very pleased you qualified who you were talking about.
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Slim 293
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Slim 293 »

Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:47 am So, it is a public holiday down here in the Great State of Victoria.

What are all you Melburnians up to? Anyone off to a BBQ at a mates place? Off to a nice restaurant? Catching up for froffy's at a local watering hole? Out and about shopping? Going to the races tonight (Manikato) or tomorrow (Cox Plate)? Who has a big Grand Final party planned?

Anyone?
If you're bored the pro-plaguers are still marching...
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ali's Choice »

Hundreds of anti-lockdown protesters marched in Melbourne today. Police were assaulted, a police horse was attacked and many properties were damaged. There was TV footage of innocent bystanders being assaulted by the protesters, who included a number of known neo-nazi's and white supremacist groups. Rita Panahi is hosting 'Credlin' right now and she proudly labelled these rioters "patriots" and "freedom fighters".
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Ali's Choice wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:15 am Hundreds of anti-lockdown protesters marched in Melbourne today. Police were assaulted, a police horse was attacked and many properties were damaged. There was TV footage of innocent bystanders being assaulted by the protesters, who included a number of known neo-nazi's and white supremacist groups. Rita Panahi is hosting 'Credlin' right now and she proudly labelled these rioters "patriots" and "freedom fighters".
What about a turkey?
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