Melbourne. Fvcked.

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Santa
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Santa »

I'm mystified at the anger when some people, experts even, propose something different in the hopes of getting a better result. But there we are. People like Enzedder have the conch. There can be no dissent.
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:32 am
Clogs wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:18 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:40 am
Your position that the vulnerable and elderly should be sacrificed for the greater economic good?

Aaaaannndddd another Trump 101 trick right there. :roll:
Except you are arguing for Trump's actual policies by demanding for a herd immunity approach, and I am arguing against them.
You are the one that believes this is somehow political and keeps trying to make it so.

And you are the one behaving like Trump by blatantly trolling and then claiming you are not (like lie and deny). You offer very little substance other than bluster and distortion (and you have just done it again and I quoted it).

You cannot engage in a meaningful topic of discussion because the moment it differs from your view you attack with vile claims and obtuse distortions and spittle flecked hyperbole.

Again. You behave like Trump. You are what you so despise and somehow you seem unable to see it.
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Enzedder
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Enzedder »

Santa wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:57 am I'm mystified at the anger when some people, experts even, propose something different in the hopes of getting a better result. But there we are. People like Enzedder have the conch. There can be no dissent.
I don't have an opinion - or even pretend to have one.

All I pointed out that 3 opinions is a miniscule number - I bet there are far more dissenting ones.

Not worth fighting over really.
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Enzedder wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:03 am
Santa wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:57 am I'm mystified at the anger when some people, experts even, propose something different in the hopes of getting a better result. But there we are. People like Enzedder have the conch. There can be no dissent.
I don't have an opinion - or even pretend to have one.

All I pointed out that 3 opinions is a miniscule number - I bet there are far more dissenting ones.

Not worth fighting over really.

Enz, those 3 eminent doctors/professors put forward an alternative approach to manage our way out to a new normal. They published this 3 or 4 days ago. Since then tens of thousands have come out in support of their alternative view. Including some very very smart people (see list below for just some of the epidemiologist/medical professor types). There are a lot more than just 3 people that have this view. Does it make it right? No, but what is right? What should be happening at the very least is meaningful discussion about the pros and cons of whatever way forward we believe we could take. Instead of being shouted down.


Dr. Martin Kulldorff, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring of infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.

Dr. Sunetra Gupta, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.

Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.

Dr. Helen Colhoun, professor of medical informatics and epidemiology, and public health physician, with expertise in risk prediction, University of Edinburgh, UK

Prof. Motti Gerlic, Department of Clinical Microbiology and Immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Gabriela Gomes, professor, a mathematician focussing on population dynamics, evolutionary theory and infectious disease epidemiology. University of Strathclyde, Glasgow, UK

Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas, epidemiologist and assistant professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden

Prof. David Livermore, Professor, microbiologist with expertise in disease epidemiology, antibiotic resistance and rapid diagnostics. University of East Anglia, UK

Dr. Paul McKeigue, professor of epidemiology and public health physician, with expertise in statistical modelling of disease. University of Edinburgh, UK

Prof. Ariel Munitz, Department of Clinical Microbiology and Immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Cody Meissner, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA

Prof. Udi Qimron, Chair, Department of Clinical Microbiology and Immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Eyal Shahar, MD professor (emeritus) of public health, physician, epidemiologist, with expertise in causal and statistical inference. University of Arizona, USA

Dr. Simon Thornley, PhD, epidemiologist, biostatistics and epidemiological analysis, communicable and non-communicable diseases. University of Auckland, New Zealand.

Prof. Ellen Townsend, Self-Harm Research Group, University of Nottingham, UK.

Prof. Lisa White, Professor of Modelling and Epidemiology Nuffield Department of Medicine, Oxford University, UK

Prof. David Wilkinson MD, PhD, DSc, Macquarie University,Australia

Prof. Marc Cohen MBBS (Hons), PhD (E:c Eng), {hD(TCM), BMedSc(Hons) RMIT Australia

Prof. Peter Martin Australia Professor of Clinical Communication and End of Life Care, Deakin University Medical and Public Health Scientists
Last edited by Clogs on Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
bimboman
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

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It’s going to become mainstream if there’s no vaccine by this time next year.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Ali's Choice »

Clogs wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:02 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:32 am
Clogs wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:18 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:40 am
Your position that the vulnerable and elderly should be sacrificed for the greater economic good?

Aaaaannndddd another Trump 101 trick right there. :roll:
Except you are arguing for Trump's actual policies by demanding for a herd immunity approach, and I am arguing against them.
You are the one that believes this is somehow political and keeps trying to make it so.

And you are the one behaving like Trump by blatantly trolling and then claiming you are not (like lie and deny). You offer very little substance other than bluster and distortion (and you have just done it again and I quoted it).

You cannot engage in a meaningful topic of discussion because the moment it differs from your view you attack with vile claims and obtuse distortions and spittle flecked hyperbole.
Meaningful topic of discussion? Why would anyone engage you in such a way. I have posted on this forum since 2005 and for most of that time you've been a loathsome right wing troll. You've never changed your mind on any topic, and you're dishonest and a liar. I would more quickly engage with Silver on climate change, bimboman on Brexit and Seneca on Donald Trump than I would engage with you on herd immunity. Keeping in mind that at the core of your preferred strategy for managing COVID-19 is more elderly and vulnerable people dying alone, in pain, on ventilators. All so you can have your freedom. You've been a troll for as long as I've known you on this forum, and I don't chat meaningfully with trolls.

Anyway, we can argue all we like, but my great and enduring relief is that all the Australian states opted for my preferred option of lockdowns, restrictions and tight controls. That's why as a nation we have recorded just 6 new cases of COVID-19 today. Contrast this with the USA, where many states have adopted your preferred herd immunity approach to managing the virus. They had 44,000 new cases yesterday.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

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bimboman wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:34 am It’s going to become mainstream if there’s no vaccine by this time next year.
Australia recorded just 6 new infections today. Why would we change anything?
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Farva
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Farva »

Santa wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:14 pm Dissenting scientists issue Covid-19 herd immunity declaration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_Z7Gf1aRE&t=261s
  • Dr Sunetra Gupta (infectious disease epidemiologist and a professor of theoretical epidemiology at the University of Oxford)
  • Dr Jay Bhattacharya (Professor of Medicine at Stanford University and a research associate at the National Bureau of Economics Research. He directs Stanford’s Center for Demography and Economics of Health and Aging)
  • Dr. Martin Kulldorff (Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and a biostatistician in the Division of Pharmacoepidemiology and Pharmacoeconomics at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital)
Strategy is to protect vulnerable populations. Take account of all the harms (e.g. other diseases, mental health, unemployment etc. etc.), target protection and let less vulnerable groups live freer lives.
Im sure they are quite accurate and its worth a good discussion for a global response.

However, this thread, and discussion is specific to Australia. In Australia, we have locked borders down and can be confident they wont be breached. That means we can isolate our selves from the rest of the world. We can squash the virus here and act in a bubble. Incidentally that is what we did with the spanish flu - https://www.phrp.com.au/wp-content/uplo ... B06025.pdf - where we only had 12k to 15k deaths at a lower rate than others.

Here we can lock down until a vaccine is available and operate largely normal. That will be economically stronger, but also keep more Australians alive and less inclined to long term effects.

Should a vaccine not be available in a timely manner, we can reassess. I dont believe that a herd immunity approach is the right one for Australia. It might be for somewhere like the UK, Spain, Italy, France, US, etc where the disease has taken hold, and borders are far more porous. However, while chasing herd immunity they will experience huge numbers of deaths. We should do whatever is in our power to avoid that.
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:43 am
Meaningful topic of discussion? Why would anyone engage you in such a way. I have posted on this forum since 2005 and for most of that time you've been a loathsome right wing troll. You've never changed your mind on any topic, and you're dishonest and a liar. I would more quickly engage with Silver on climate change, bimboman on Brexit and Seneca on Donald Trump than I would engage with you on herd immunity. Keeping in mind that at the core of your preferred strategy for managing COVID-19 is more elderly and vulnerable people dying alone, in pain, on ventilators. All so you can have your freedom. You've been a troll for as long as I've known you on this forum, and I don't chat meaningfully with trolls.
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towny
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by towny »

Santa wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:57 am I'm mystified at the anger when some people, experts even, propose something different in the hopes of getting a better result. But there we are. People like Enzedder have the conch. There can be no dissent.
Literally no one anywhere cares what you think about anything.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by bimboman »

Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:44 am
bimboman wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:34 am It’s going to become mainstream if there’s no vaccine by this time next year.
Australia recorded just 6 new infections today. Why would we change anything?


Indeed keeping all travel heavily restricted isn’t a “change” it’s perfectly normal.
towny
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by towny »

bimboman wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:15 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:44 am
bimboman wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:34 am It’s going to become mainstream if there’s no vaccine by this time next year.
Australia recorded just 6 new infections today. Why would we change anything?


Indeed keeping all travel heavily restricted isn’t a “change” it’s perfectly normal.
Where does the opportunity to travel rate on your priority list?
bimboman
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by bimboman »

towny wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:24 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:15 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:44 am
bimboman wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:34 am It’s going to become mainstream if there’s no vaccine by this time next year.
Australia recorded just 6 new infections today. Why would we change anything?


Indeed keeping all travel heavily restricted isn’t a “change” it’s perfectly normal.
Where does the opportunity to travel rate on your priority list?


If I own a hotel pretty high I reckon.

This is massively retrograde view from the world “progressives”.
Santa
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Santa »

Farva wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:02 am
Santa wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:14 pm Dissenting scientists issue Covid-19 herd immunity declaration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_Z7Gf1aRE&t=261s
  • Dr Sunetra Gupta (infectious disease epidemiologist and a professor of theoretical epidemiology at the University of Oxford)
  • Dr Jay Bhattacharya (Professor of Medicine at Stanford University and a research associate at the National Bureau of Economics Research. He directs Stanford’s Center for Demography and Economics of Health and Aging)
  • Dr. Martin Kulldorff (Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and a biostatistician in the Division of Pharmacoepidemiology and Pharmacoeconomics at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital)
Strategy is to protect vulnerable populations. Take account of all the harms (e.g. other diseases, mental health, unemployment etc. etc.), target protection and let less vulnerable groups live freer lives.
Im sure they are quite accurate and its worth a good discussion for a global response.

However, this thread, and discussion is specific to Australia. In Australia, we have locked borders down and can be confident they wont be breached. That means we can isolate our selves from the rest of the world. We can squash the virus here and act in a bubble. Incidentally that is what we did with the spanish flu - https://www.phrp.com.au/wp-content/uplo ... B06025.pdf - where we only had 12k to 15k deaths at a lower rate than others.

Here we can lock down until a vaccine is available and operate largely normal. That will be economically stronger, but also keep more Australians alive and less inclined to long term effects.

Should a vaccine not be available in a timely manner, we can reassess. I dont believe that a herd immunity approach is the right one for Australia. It might be for somewhere like the UK, Spain, Italy, France, US, etc where the disease has taken hold, and borders are far more porous. However, while chasing herd immunity they will experience huge numbers of deaths. We should do whatever is in our power to avoid that.
All well and good. It does put a couple of holes in your reasoning if not your position. Australia has my permission to proceed as it wills.
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

NSW had more cases today than Victoria.


Australia still has a long way to go before we are out of the woods.
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Muttonbirds
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Muttonbirds »

Santa wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:14 pm Dissenting scientists issue Covid-19 herd immunity declaration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_Z7Gf1aRE&t=261s
  • Dr Sunetra Gupta (infectious disease epidemiologist and a professor of theoretical epidemiology at the University of Oxford)
  • Dr Jay Bhattacharya (Professor of Medicine at Stanford University and a research associate at the National Bureau of Economics Research. He directs Stanford’s Center for Demography and Economics of Health and Aging)
  • Dr. Martin Kulldorff (Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and a biostatistician in the Division of Pharmacoepidemiology and Pharmacoeconomics at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital)
Strategy is to protect vulnerable populations. Take account of all the harms (e.g. other diseases, mental health, unemployment etc. etc.), target protection and let less vulnerable groups live freer lives.
Seneca, the international business community itself has endorsed the opposite of what these isolated academics wanting to make a name for themselves are promoting. This, on top of the weight of opinion from their medical sector colleagues. Medical, and now business advice is to go hard and early. Simple.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Santa »

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-54442386
Thousands of scientists and health experts have joined a global movement warning of "grave concerns" about Covid-19 lockdown policies.

Nearly 6,000 experts, including dozens from the UK, say the approach is having a devastating impact on physical and mental health as well as society.

They are calling for protection to be focused on the vulnerable, while healthy people get on with their lives.
bimboman
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by bimboman »

Muttonbirds wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:24 am
Santa wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:14 pm Dissenting scientists issue Covid-19 herd immunity declaration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_Z7Gf1aRE&t=261s
  • Dr Sunetra Gupta (infectious disease epidemiologist and a professor of theoretical epidemiology at the University of Oxford)
  • Dr Jay Bhattacharya (Professor of Medicine at Stanford University and a research associate at the National Bureau of Economics Research. He directs Stanford’s Center for Demography and Economics of Health and Aging)
  • Dr. Martin Kulldorff (Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and a biostatistician in the Division of Pharmacoepidemiology and Pharmacoeconomics at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital)
Strategy is to protect vulnerable populations. Take account of all the harms (e.g. other diseases, mental health, unemployment etc. etc.), target protection and let less vulnerable groups live freer lives.
Seneca, the international business community itself has endorsed the opposite of what these isolated academics wanting to make a name for themselves are promoting. This, on top of the weight of opinion from their medical sector colleagues. Medical, and now business advice is to go hard and early. Simple.


No they haven’t.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by iarmhiman »

There will be a vaccine by June and not everyone has to get it to ease restrictions.
bimboman
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by bimboman »

iarmhiman wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:25 pm There will be a vaccine by June and not everyone has to get it to ease restrictions.

The vaccine is still a gamble. Many many business and even countries will be bust by June next year.
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Slim 293
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Slim 293 »

Peta Credlin hijacked the Andrews press conference today...

Seemingly confused about data retention laws, that were passed under Abbott when she was his CoS. :lol:
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

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Santa wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:15 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-54442386
Thousands of scientists and health experts have joined a global movement warning of "grave concerns" about Covid-19 lockdown policies.

Nearly 6,000 experts, including dozens from the UK, say the approach is having a devastating impact on physical and mental health as well as society.

They are calling for protection to be focused on the vulnerable, while healthy people get on with their lives.
Yes.
This is a Melbourne specific discussion however, so while partially relevant, not really.
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Enzedder
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Enzedder »

Santa wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:15 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-54442386
Thousands of scientists and health experts have joined a global movement warning of "grave concerns" about Covid-19 lockdown policies.

Nearly 6,000 experts, including dozens from the UK, say the approach is having a devastating impact on physical and mental health as well as society.

They are calling for protection to be focused on the vulnerable, while healthy people get on with their lives.
And a whole lot of business people (they are like Gods to you, aren't they?) think NZ have done it bloody well

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123019 ... BfPF3g2DZw
The Bloomberg survey was conducted during the second half of August, after the second outbreak in Auckland, starting on the day that Labour leader Jacinda Ardern delayed the general election.

The business leaders scored New Zealand 238 points, based on its performance with regard to political stability, economic recovery, virus control and social resilience.
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

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Farva wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:58 am
Santa wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:15 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-54442386
Thousands of scientists and health experts have joined a global movement warning of "grave concerns" about Covid-19 lockdown policies.

Nearly 6,000 experts, including dozens from the UK, say the approach is having a devastating impact on physical and mental health as well as society.

They are calling for protection to be focused on the vulnerable, while healthy people get on with their lives.
Yes.
This is a Melbourne specific discussion however, so while partially relevant, not really.
I think the edges have blurred a bit as to this being a Melbourne specific discussion, but it is worth highlighting this to get it back on track.


Brett Sutton says we may be missing up to 30% of infections and goes on to say that we intend to keep Melburnians locked up indefinitely*.

















*This second part of the sentence is unlikely to be true. Highly unlikely.









Ok, it isn't true at all because he did not say it at all.












But he thought it!















Ok, he didn't think it either.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

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You do bring up an interesting point though Clogs. What restrictions will be lifted next weekend. Will we be down to <5 cases a day, it’s unlikely. I really hope the 5km limitation goes. To be honest, I think they should lift regardless. A rolling average of 9 is no different to 5. We are facing a handful of clusters. We can manage that.
But I am interested to what the experts think. Again we need to be conservative.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by CrazyIslander »

Why not just one week of massive testing effort...ie 200k tests a day. You'd sooner have less than 5. Or even 0 new cases.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by towny »

Why can’t we just use the Apple/Google technology?
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Santa »

WATCH: Dr David Nabarro, the WHO's Special Envoy on Covid-19, tells Andrew Neil: 'We really do appeal to all world leaders: stop using lockdown as your primary control method'.
https://twitter.com/spectator/status/13 ... 58434?s=09
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Farva wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:06 pm You do bring up an interesting point though Clogs. What restrictions will be lifted next weekend. Will we be down to <5 cases a day, it’s unlikely. I really hope the 5km limitation goes. To be honest, I think they should lift regardless. A rolling average of 9 is no different to 5. We are facing a handful of clusters. We can manage that.
But I am interested to what the experts think. Again we need to be conservative.

Yeh, I think one of the comments from the press conference yesterday was, well in lockdown 1 we removed restrictions and numbers were higher than what they are now. If we didn't have the hotel quarantine fiasco we would be fine. So why is it different this time. Brett Sutton struggled a bit with that one.
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

CrazyIslander wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:18 pm Why not just one week of massive testing effort...ie 200k tests a day. You'd sooner have less than 5. Or even 0 new cases.
Yep. I agree. Testing on a massive scale is the way out. Trouble is I don't think we are scaled up for testing like that.
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

towny wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:09 pm Why can’t we just use the Apple/Google technology?
Wait what? Are you trying to tell me there is technology out there that can help us manage this?
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by towny »

Clogs wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:37 am
towny wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:09 pm Why can’t we just use the Apple/Google technology?
Wait what? Are you trying to tell me there is technology out there that can help us manage this?
Strangely enough.

But there’s a potential privacy trade-off. The govt won’t have any data, but the tech giants may. They already have it anyway, so I can’t imagine why someone would worry about this when the threat of Covid is what it is.

Needs to be mandatory though - an ‘opt-in’ system is useless. Apple and Google’s solution is great, but the insist it must be ‘opt-in’ - this undermines its effectiveness.
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Clogs
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

towny wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:57 am
Clogs wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:37 am
towny wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:09 pm Why can’t we just use the Apple/Google technology?
Wait what? Are you trying to tell me there is technology out there that can help us manage this?
Strangely enough.

But there’s a potential privacy trade-off. The govt won’t have any data, but the tech giants may. They already have it anyway, so I can’t imagine why someone would worry about this when the threat of Covid is what it is.

Needs to be mandatory though - an ‘opt-in’ system is useless. Apple and Google’s solution is great, but the insist it must be ‘opt-in’ - this undermines its effectiveness.
Please don't tell me this has been around for months? If so what the fvck is happening in Victoria if this hasn't been considered?


Also, I work in the app space. If you have a smart phone and an apple or google account then from a technical point of view they and the government have all the info they need to snoop on you, and it is just the various 'privacy' legislation that makes it tricky for them to 'use'. I would happily give up some of what I have already given up to get some smarts and some freedom back.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by towny »

Clogs wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:44 am
towny wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:57 am
Clogs wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:37 am
towny wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:09 pm Why can’t we just use the Apple/Google technology?
Wait what? Are you trying to tell me there is technology out there that can help us manage this?
Strangely enough.

But there’s a potential privacy trade-off. The govt won’t have any data, but the tech giants may. They already have it anyway, so I can’t imagine why someone would worry about this when the threat of Covid is what it is.

Needs to be mandatory though - an ‘opt-in’ system is useless. Apple and Google’s solution is great, but the insist it must be ‘opt-in’ - this undermines its effectiveness.
Please don't tell me this has been around for months? If so what the fvck is happening in Victoria if this hasn't been considered?


Also, I work in the app space. If you have a smart phone and an apple or google account then from a technical point of view they and the government have all the info they need to snoop on you, and it is just the various 'privacy' legislation that makes it tricky for them to 'use'. I would happily give up some of what I have already given up to get some smarts and some freedom back.
People routinely give up their privacy for free apps - not sure what the rationale is to not use this solution.
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Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Farva »

As much as I would like to use these apps there is absolutely no way on earth that any government will authorise collecting people’s data with an opt out only. We all know this. Let’s not pretend it’s going to happen. The response would be riots on the street and if we think the likes of Credlin, etc have been harsh so far, that is nothing compared to what will happen if people’s data is collected.

You are both smarter than this.
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jdogscoop
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by jdogscoop »

Great to see the North Face jacket back today in Dan's 100th consecutive presser.

fudge me that woman asking repetitive questions was a pain in the ass. Peta again? Dan told her he would answer if he could get a word in edgewise, and then another journalist said "excuse me?" when she once again tried to be the only one talking in the room. Fuckhead.
towny
Posts: 18337
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:53 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by towny »

Farva wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:19 pm As much as I would like to use these apps there is absolutely no way on earth that any government will authorise collecting people’s data with an opt out only. We all know this. Let’s not pretend it’s going to happen. The response would be riots on the street and if we think the likes of Credlin, etc have been harsh so far, that is nothing compared to what will happen if people’s data is collected.

You are both smarter than this.
People’s data is collected all day every day. No riots...
But this isn’t that. This encrypts all users - not even Apple and Google know who is who. But when someone tests positive - and that result is entered into the phone, all those phones that were a certain distance would receive a notification that they were at risk.

Sure there is risk - all choices have trade-offs. But in this case, the trade-off is pretty bad. I find it interesting when people seem to prefer economic ruin and unnecessary death because they’re worried that Apple and Google have data that they could take any time anyway if they felt like it.
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Farva
Posts: 17116
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: STRAYA PLUM

Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Farva »

towny wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:39 pm
Farva wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:19 pm As much as I would like to use these apps there is absolutely no way on earth that any government will authorise collecting people’s data with an opt out only. We all know this. Let’s not pretend it’s going to happen. The response would be riots on the street and if we think the likes of Credlin, etc have been harsh so far, that is nothing compared to what will happen if people’s data is collected.

You are both smarter than this.
People’s data is collected all day every day. No riots...
But this isn’t that. This encrypts all users - not even Apple and Google know who is who. But when someone tests positive - and that result is entered into the phone, all those phones that were a certain distance would receive a notification that they were at risk.

Sure there is risk - all choices have trade-offs. But in this case, the trade-off is pretty bad. I find it interesting when people seem to prefer economic ruin and unnecessary death because they’re worried that Apple and Google have data that they could take any time anyway if they felt like it.
Sure. People are dumb.

There is no way on earth governments will be able to implement a policy of forced collection of data.
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Clogs
Posts: 4034
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Clogs »

Farva wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:00 pm
towny wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:39 pm
Farva wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:19 pm As much as I would like to use these apps there is absolutely no way on earth that any government will authorise collecting people’s data with an opt out only. We all know this. Let’s not pretend it’s going to happen. The response would be riots on the street and if we think the likes of Credlin, etc have been harsh so far, that is nothing compared to what will happen if people’s data is collected.

You are both smarter than this.
People’s data is collected all day every day. No riots...
But this isn’t that. This encrypts all users - not even Apple and Google know who is who. But when someone tests positive - and that result is entered into the phone, all those phones that were a certain distance would receive a notification that they were at risk.

Sure there is risk - all choices have trade-offs. But in this case, the trade-off is pretty bad. I find it interesting when people seem to prefer economic ruin and unnecessary death because they’re worried that Apple and Google have data that they could take any time anyway if they felt like it.
Sure. People are dumb.

There is no way on earth governments will be able to implement a policy of forced collection of data.

When you consider the Covidsafe app that doesn't seem to be working at all got several million downloads and asked for more personal info than what Google or Apple are asking for, I don't see it as such a big stretch? In fact if you want a Sim Card in Australia you have to provide ID (mostly drivers licence) and that is recorded. The data has already been captured.

I reckon if Dan turned around tomorrow and said here is the app, when we get to 80% downloaded and in use we will end the lockdown, we would have hit 80% in July and have moved on. The anti-maskers and 5G protestors may have had a differing view but they are in the minority. The rest of us would have complied, particularly when it is explained to people that the data is already captured, they are not seeking anything new.
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Farva
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Location: STRAYA PLUM

Re: Melbourne. Fvcked.

Post by Farva »

If it’s voluntary people will probably do it, well same people. That’s not what was suggested, it was an opt out system. That won’t work.
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