Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

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towny
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by towny »

In terms of players, teams, clubs, etc. how does the NSWRU rate with the big nurseries of the world? Is it close to the big boys?
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

Who knows?

The RFU claims 500,000 players

NSWRU claim 36,711 'regular' club players. With a population of 7.5M (vs 55M for RFU) then the pro-rata figure might be 250,000 or so.

QRU claim 23,000 club players


The issue is keeping them in the game. Teams fielding 5-7 teams at U-10 might be down to barely 1 team by U16.

The big difference in NSW is schools, due to the 'big' schools keeping the game alive and cherry-picking talent for scholarships. Whereas clubs see a big die-off in these age teams, Barker College, for example (a 'good' rugby school) has 6 teams playing U17-U18 and a powerhouse like Joeys might have more than that (sometimes 9 teams)

NSW has some 16,000 such schoolboys (and Qld has maybe 6,000)
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Sensible Stephen
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Sensible Stephen »

Ellafan wrote:
Dan54. wrote:
kiap wrote:
tubbyj wrote:So it seems the NZR is working on 2 plans.
Any link on this?

i.e. relatively recent...
I was wondering the same thing kiap, I sure haven't found any yet. Is this just an idea someone has come up with here?
There are definitely two plans ...

But the second part is getting proper recompense for the ABs filling NH stadiums for 5 weeks every November/December.

At a realistic US$2 millon per week, that's a not inconsiderable payday.
If they manage to pull that off, surely we can demand something similar too. Ok, we are not quite the draw that they are, but we are still top tier opposition.
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Ellafan
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Ellafan »

Sensible Stephen wrote:
Ellafan wrote:
Dan54. wrote:
kiap wrote:
tubbyj wrote:So it seems the NZR is working on 2 plans.
Any link on this?

i.e. relatively recent...
I was wondering the same thing kiap, I sure haven't found any yet. Is this just an idea someone has come up with here?
There are definitely two plans ...

But the second part is getting proper recompense for the ABs filling NH stadiums for 5 weeks every November/December.

At a realistic US$2 millon per week, that's a not inconsiderable payday.
If they manage to pull that off, surely we can demand something similar too. Ok, we are not quite the draw that they are, but we are still top tier opposition.
I seem to recall that a few years ago the ABs and the Wallabies were both paid a fee to play an extra game in December (after the international window). I can't recall the exact numbers, but the ABs were paid more than the Wallabies.
towny
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by towny »

shanky wrote:Who knows?

The RFU claims 500,000 players

NSWRU claim 36,711 'regular' club players. With a population of 7.5M (vs 55M for RFU) then the pro-rata figure might be 250,000 or so.

QRU claim 23,000 club players


The issue is keeping them in the game. Teams fielding 5-7 teams at U-10 might be down to barely 1 team by U16.

The big difference in NSW is schools, due to the 'big' schools keeping the game alive and cherry-picking talent for scholarships. Whereas clubs see a big die-off in these age teams, Barker College, for example (a 'good' rugby school) has 6 teams playing U17-U18 and a powerhouse like Joeys might have more than that (sometimes 9 teams)

NSW has some 16,000 such schoolboys (and Qld has maybe 6,000)
Is the RFU one union or a national union made up of many smaller unions? I was thinking like for like comparisons - NSW seems to have a LOT of clubs.
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Zakar
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Zakar »

NSW really does have a lot of clubs.

Sydney has ~60 senior clubs on its own.
towny
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by towny »

Zakar wrote:NSW really does have a lot of clubs.

Sydney has ~60 senior clubs on its own.
A crazy amount of clubs. Plus, 20+ rugby schools.
They ended up giving a chunk to ACT to manage - it was too much.
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

towny wrote:
shanky wrote:Who knows?

The RFU claims 500,000 players

NSWRU claim 36,711 'regular' club players. With a population of 7.5M (vs 55M for RFU) then the pro-rata figure might be 250,000 or so.

QRU claim 23,000 club players


The issue is keeping them in the game. Teams fielding 5-7 teams at U-10 might be down to barely 1 team by U16.

The big difference in NSW is schools, due to the 'big' schools keeping the game alive and cherry-picking talent for scholarships. Whereas clubs see a big die-off in these age teams, Barker College, for example (a 'good' rugby school) has 6 teams playing U17-U18 and a powerhouse like Joeys might have more than that (sometimes 9 teams)

NSW has some 16,000 such schoolboys (and Qld has maybe 6,000)
Is the RFU one union or a national union made up of many smaller unions? I was thinking like for like comparisons - NSW seems to have a LOT of clubs.
It’s ‘owned‘ by the clubs, of which there are 2,000 apparently
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MungoMan
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by MungoMan »

shanky wrote:
towny wrote:
shanky wrote:Who knows?

The RFU claims 500,000 players

NSWRU claim 36,711 'regular' club players. With a population of 7.5M (vs 55M for RFU) then the pro-rata figure might be 250,000 or so.

QRU claim 23,000 club players


The issue is keeping them in the game. Teams fielding 5-7 teams at U-10 might be down to barely 1 team by U16.

The big difference in NSW is schools, due to the 'big' schools keeping the game alive and cherry-picking talent for scholarships. Whereas clubs see a big die-off in these age teams, Barker College, for example (a 'good' rugby school) has 6 teams playing U17-U18 and a powerhouse like Joeys might have more than that (sometimes 9 teams)

NSW has some 16,000 such schoolboys (and Qld has maybe 6,000)
Is the RFU one union or a national union made up of many smaller unions? I was thinking like for like comparisons - NSW seems to have a LOT of clubs.
That’s a Mog question

:lol:
Swedes are a sharing people. Also, a root vegetable.
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

Please delete that. I did so, to avoid being harangued by Mog for eternity
towny
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by towny »

shanky wrote:
towny wrote:
shanky wrote:Who knows?

The RFU claims 500,000 players

NSWRU claim 36,711 'regular' club players. With a population of 7.5M (vs 55M for RFU) then the pro-rata figure might be 250,000 or so.

QRU claim 23,000 club players


The issue is keeping them in the game. Teams fielding 5-7 teams at U-10 might be down to barely 1 team by U16.

The big difference in NSW is schools, due to the 'big' schools keeping the game alive and cherry-picking talent for scholarships. Whereas clubs see a big die-off in these age teams, Barker College, for example (a 'good' rugby school) has 6 teams playing U17-U18 and a powerhouse like Joeys might have more than that (sometimes 9 teams)

NSW has some 16,000 such schoolboys (and Qld has maybe 6,000)
Is the RFU one union or a national union made up of many smaller unions? I was thinking like for like comparisons - NSW seems to have a LOT of clubs.
It’s ‘owned‘ by the clubs, of which there are 2,000 apparently
Sure. But is it structured like us: RA > QR = Qld runs the sport I’m Qld.
NSWRU is massive!
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

Not like us. They have a pyramid of comps

The districts/regions have some degree of autonomy but not like how Subbies is financially separate from RA

Maybe the English posters know more detail
grievous
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by grievous »

Check this out, great to see consideration from RA on the club scene. Dont think rugby supports a FA type knockout, could be a few blowouts with SA, TAS, NT teams but love the idea of it working.
NSW, QLD, ACT, VIC, WA comp options could be surprisingly competitive.
Maybe the other states run one and the winner/runner up get a wild card.
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-unio ... 55mkk.html

The four National Club Championship models
Model A - Top 32 knockout
32 clubs
Five weeks
31 matches
Every state premier rugby competition represented (NSW, QLD, ACT, VIC, WA, SA, TAS, NT)
Ladder position at the end of state-based competitions determines seeding
Model B - Top 16 knockout
16 clubs
Four weeks
15 matches
Represented across Shute Shield (NSW), Hospital Cup (QLD), John I Dent Cup (ACT), Dewar Shield (VIC) and Fortescue Premier Grade (WA)
Model C - Top 8 (no wildcards)
Eight clubs
Five weeks
15 matches
Two pools of four teams - round robin in each pool across three weeks
Represented across Shute Shield (NSW), Hospital Cup (QLD), John I Dent Cup (ACT), Dewar Shield (VIC) and Fortescue Premier Grade (WA)
Semi-finals – 1st Pool A v 2nd Pool B & 2nd Pool A v 1st Pool B
Final – winners of each semi-final
Model D - Top 8 (with wildcards)
Eight clubs including two wildcard sides.
Six weeks
17 matches
Two wildcard playoffs to qualify for pool stage
Two pools of four teams - round robin in each pool across three weeks
Represented across Shute Shield (NSW), Hospital Cup (QLD), John I Dent Cup (ACT), Dewar Shield (VIC) and Fortescue Premier Grade (WA) – plus potential NT, SA and TAS competition seedings as wildcards
Semi-finals – 1st Pool A v 2nd Pool B & 2nd Pool A v 1st Pool B
Final – winners of each semi-final
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Zakar
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Zakar »

32 Team knockout sounds the way to go. Pools are BS for this type of comp.

I'd wonder if you would need to rejig the teams, as im sure the best teams in the bigger nsw/qld regional comps and subbies would thrash the best teams in NT/SA/Tas
towny
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by towny »

Depends. Play in Darwin at 32 degrees.

We will definitely see some hidings, but that’s okay. This is the best idea EVA!!!!
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

Hunter Wildfires are a scratch team from Newcastle area, playing in Shute Shield this year and going OK

Good story here. Shows what can be done of you think outside the box

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-unio ... 55ls4.html

(And before anyone starts lecturing me about SS, this isn’t about that. It’s about the vibe)
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Zakar
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Zakar »

Yeah, the Illawarriors did something similar few years back. I think they finished the bottom of the ladder, but got a scalp or two.
grievous
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by grievous »

Newcastle is supported by a strong club comp, different to playing a team from Burnie.
I watched Darwin GF on weekend and regularly watch SA premiership on NITV, these guys can be as physical as any club but it comes down to pace of game, fitness and size. They can’t measure themselves with Force or Rebels academy players.
But to be involved at some some level in this would still be fantastic
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Zakar
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Zakar »

grievous wrote:Newcastle is supported by a strong club comp, different to playing a team from Burnie.
I watched Darwin GF on weekend and regularly watch SA premiership on NITV, these guys can be as physical as any club but it comes down to pace of game, fitness and size. They can’t measure themselves with Force or Rebels academy players.
But to be involved at some some level in this would still be fantastic
Yeah 100%.

It's what's great about the FA Cup. 700+ teams involved, anyone can technically win it, but they know they won't.

Even a silly number of teams is whittled down quickly with a knockout comp. No reason you couldn't have more than 32.
Dan54.
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Dan54. »

Zakar wrote:
grievous wrote:Newcastle is supported by a strong club comp, different to playing a team from Burnie.
I watched Darwin GF on weekend and regularly watch SA premiership on NITV, these guys can be as physical as any club but it comes down to pace of game, fitness and size. They can’t measure themselves with Force or Rebels academy players.
But to be involved at some some level in this would still be fantastic
Yeah 100%.

It's what's great about the FA Cup. 700+ teams involved, anyone can technically win it, but they know they won't.

Even a silly number of teams is whittled down quickly with a knockout comp. No reason you couldn't have more than 32.
I love this idea, believe Wales have a similar comp.
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Working Class Rugger »

Zakar wrote:32 Team knockout sounds the way to go. Pools are BS for this type of comp.

I'd wonder if you would need to rejig the teams, as im sure the best teams in the bigger nsw/qld regional comps and subbies would thrash the best teams in NT/SA/Tas
I actually think there should be a means of regional/minor states teams to qualify. Not clubs but rep squads. Like the Wildfires, Illwarriors or the Black Falcons/Mozzies/Jackjumpers. And it could be done via things like the NSW Country Championships. Have SA and Tas join that competition and play for an opportunity to enter the NCC. Same for the Mozzies but with Queensland.
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by grievous »

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Zakar wrote:32 Team knockout sounds the way to go. Pools are BS for this type of comp.

I'd wonder if you would need to rejig the teams, as im sure the best teams in the bigger nsw/qld regional comps and subbies would thrash the best teams in NT/SA/Tas
I actually think there should be a means of regional/minor states teams to qualify. Not clubs but rep squads. Like the Wildfires, Illwarriors or the Black Falcons/Mozzies/Jackjumpers. And it could be done via things like the NSW Country Championships. Have SA and Tas join that competition and play for an opportunity to enter the NCC. Same for the Mozzies but with Queensland.
There was, the ARC but ARU canned it.
NT and SA have played nth QLD and NSW Southern Inland tournaments respectively.
2018 had an Emerging states comp with SA, NT, Tas, Vic Country Babaas.
2019 evolved almost back into the old ARS format called the NRC div 2 with NSW/Qld country, Perth Gold(metro) SAu23 plus above teams.
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Mullet 2
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Mullet 2 »

shanky wrote:The Tah system is broken

NSW produces the majority of all the young talent going around. They have the pick of the cherries.
Still manage to end up paying overs for players from other States or codes or countries.

It has taken a slight turn for the better this year with the fresh blood coming in. Why we are paying Hooper $1m while broke, with barely any competing bids, while we have 2-3 other perfectly serviceable alternatives, is beyond me.

NSW need to start building a stronger local identity.
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

Mullet 2 wrote:
shanky wrote:The Tah system is broken

NSW produces the majority of all the young talent going around. They have the pick of the cherries.
Still manage to end up paying overs for players from other States or codes or countries.

It has taken a slight turn for the better this year with the fresh blood coming in. Why we are paying Hooper $1m while broke, with barely any competing bids, while we have 2-3 other perfectly serviceable alternatives, is beyond me.

NSW need to start building a stronger local identity.
Couldn't agree more.

We're a bit like Ireland. The big rugby schools are our greatest defence and also our greatest weakness
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Mullet 2
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Mullet 2 »

Joking aside they should really be talking to Leinster as the parallels are striking (aside from the elephant of league).

In to schools and clubs and fostering a connection was step one (training days in local clubs, rural NSW etc). Bringing schools to games, minis from local clubs playing at half time (trick we picked up from GAA).

Next is the foster the attitude that NSW are the best side with the best players and best coaching and lads start saying they'd rather push to start there than be guaranteed to start in Perth but not be pushed,
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

Mullet 2 wrote:Joking aside they should really be talking to Leinster as the parallels are striking (aside from the elephant of league).

Into schools and clubs and fostering a connection was step one (training days in local clubs, rural NSW etc). Bringing schools to games, minis from local clubs playing at half time (trick we picked up from GAA).

Next is the foster the attitude that NSW are the best side with the best players and best coaching and lads start saying they'd rather push to start there then be guaranteed to start in Perth but not be pushed,
Thanks. I'll pass it on. Not that they'll listen :lol:
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Mullet 2
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Mullet 2 »

Tell them I sent you
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

Mullet 2 wrote:Tell them I sent you
The strongest force in this state isn't gravity. It's old boys from old schools

they live on the idea that the pinnacle of your life is playing First XV, and, secondarily, winning the GPS competition

they'll happily burn anything else in the process.

Due to (very) recent restrictions, the GPS comp is cancelled. In certain circles, there is probably more concern that the (normally pauper) club scene might somehow survive the ban

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/very-disap ... 55mu9.html

make of the what you will. I despair, tbh
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Ellafan
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Ellafan »

shanky wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:Tell them I sent you
The strongest force in this state isn't gravity. It's old boys from old schools

they live on the idea that the pinnacle of your life is playing First XV, and, secondarily, winning the GPS competition

they'll happily burn anything else in the process.

Due to (very) recent restrictions, the GPS comp is cancelled. In certain circles, there is probably more concern that the (normally pauper) club scene might somehow survive the ban

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/very-disap ... 55mu9.html

make of the what you will. I despair, tbh
Either you are one of them, or you despise them.

I vote option A.
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

I’m a rugby fan

You’re a misanthrope

We can co-exist.
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

PS: we’re dudes on an anonymous internet forum

That’s it. No more. No less

You had your profile expunged. That’s fine. I’ve not said a word

Try extending that courtesy to others, yeah?
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Ellafan
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Ellafan »

shanky wrote:I’m a rugby fan

You’re a misanthrope

We can co-exist.
Nah. I just got home from pub trivia, talking bollocks and drinking a few beers.

How is your post count looking?

You need to evolve.
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

Post count?

Yup. You win.
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Ellafan
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Ellafan »

shanky wrote:Post count?

Yup. You win.
Are you OK mate?
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shanky
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by shanky »

Ellafan wrote:
shanky wrote:Post count?

Yup. You win.
Are you OK mate?
It was your slight

Can we simply agree to avoid each other?

Thanks
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Ellafan
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Ellafan »

OK, bye.
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by grievous »

:lol:
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Thomas »

How remarkably civil.
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Ellafan
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Ellafan »

Thomas wrote:How remarkably civil.
If I knew where Shanky lived, I would have sent him a care package of ibuprofen, Coca Cola, and Mcdonald's cheeseburgers this morning.
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Re: Trans-Tasman comp to replace Super Rugby in 2021

Post by Mullet 2 »

Ellafan wrote:
Thomas wrote:How remarkably civil.
If I knew where Shanky lived, I would have sent him a care package of ibuprofen, Coca Cola, and Mcdonald's cheeseburgers this morning.

I'll send you my address
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