COvID - the end of traditional office hours as we know them?

[bravo]

This is becoming ever-apparent as far as I can see.. and I'd say its long overdue.

Can only speak from my own personal experience but since I started working professionally some 10 years ago, I have spent countless, unnecessary hours in an office, sitting at a desk like a zombie, burning my retinas out staring at a screen, just for the sake of being there and being available.. when I quite certainly could have been doing that exact same thing anywhere else, with the only exception being that my lack of presence would mean I'd just need to ensure I was contactable and responsive (which thanks to technology, it's impossible not to be nowadays anyway).

I don't at all dismiss the need for face-to-face contact.. I'm back in the office 2 days a week at the moment and WFH the other 3, its the perfect balance for me and I actually feel my productivity and working relationships have improved as a result of this. If this does become the new norm I'd say it's probably one of the positive outcomes from the COvID pandemic.

[Davedj77]

I would love to be able to work from home with a clear conscience knowing my productivity is the same or better. However I simply don't have the discipline or focus to be able to do that. I know it would be great for my mental health and would also save me money. But from my experience of WFH during the shutdown I can't maintain discipline or focus so it would not be fair to the organisation I work for if I were to WFH in future. Sux to be me.

[bravo]

I would love to be able to work from home with a clear conscience knowing my productivity is the same or better. However I simply don't have the discipline or focus to be able to do that. I know it would be great for my mental health and would also save me money. But from my experience of WFH during the shutdown I can't maintain discipline or focus so it would not be fair to the organisation I work for if I were to WFH in future. Sux to be me.

When I was working a full 5-days from home to begin with I too did feel that same lack of discipline and focus.. I'd safely say now though that my 2 days in the office, 3 days at home balance is perfect for me.

My general belief is that where feasible and reasonable, people should have the right to select their hours and days and not have office hours dictated to them (unless of course due to the nature of whatever your role is, this is unavoidable and absolutely necessary)

[Farva]

There are a couple of issues that probably havent been properly thought through in the long term to working from home for the bulk of the organisation.

The first is how do you develop graduates? Graduates need experienced people around them to bounce ideas off and be led. They ask a million questions, and fair enough, its how you learn. I would suggest that people with less than say 2 years experience need to be full time in the office and seniors should be there a minimum 2 to 3 days a week.

THe second is how do you maintain a connected team if you arent face to face. You can do it to some extent over Teams or Zoom, but its not the same. Again it needs a program for when people are in the office - so I dont necessarily agree with your position that we should get to choose the time. We can to some extent but there needs to be strategy behind it.

Having said that it will happen. People will be down to 2 days a week in the office. The savings made on commercial real estate will be intense.

[Sensible Stephen]

We have been told 4 days minimum in the office, 5 preferred.

Its a bit of a joke, the desks are 1.5m apart, deep cleaning every night etc... but a cold virus has ripped through the office, half the office has it now.

[bravo]

There are a couple of issues that probably havent been properly thought through in the long term to working from home for the bulk of the organisation.

The first is how do you develop graduates? Graduates need experienced people around them to bounce ideas off and be led. They ask a million questions, and fair enough, its how you learn. I would suggest that people with less than say 2 years experience need to be full time in the office and seniors should be there a minimum 2 to 3 days a week.

THe second is how do you maintain a connected team if you arent face to face. You can do it to some extent over Teams or Zoom, but its not the same. Again it needs a program for when people are in the office - so I dont necessarily agree with your position that we should get to choose the time. We can to some extent but there needs to be strategy behind it.

Having said that it will happen. People will be down to 2 days a week in the office. The savings made on commercial real estate will be intense.

All very good points Farva.

On allowing staff to choose their hours, maybe the right strategy is one where businesses begin to employ an open door office policy.. maybe completely liberating your staff of the expectation to be present in an office, separates the men from the boys where actual individual interest in developing in ones role and within businesses is concerned..

[AlanBengio]

Working from home since March - going back in September probably on a 3/2 days routine
I am having my post-lockdown breakfast right know near the park; I will walk to buy newspapers then I will walk home to start working. I am planning to switch PC on around 9.30
Lots of money saved at present

Edit going to the swimming pools park (alone) for lunch break and some rest

[C69]

lucky kunts

[Lemoentjie]

2/3 or 3/2 is best, in my opinion. Enough time to socialise with those other than your family and close friends, enough time being more free to do what you wish in your schedule.

What's the point of humanity's progress if not to free us from laborious and boring tasks?

[sewa]

I've been onsite 3 times for a total of about 8 hours in the last 5 months. More than enough to be fair

[jdogscoop]

Working from home since March - going back in September probably on a 3/2 days routine
I am having my post-lockdown breakfast right know near the park; I will walk to buy newspapers then I will walk home to start working. I am planning to switch PC on around 9.30
Lots of money saved at present

Edit going to the swimming pools park (alone) for lunch break and some rest

Keep saving hard AB because you'll need that money when you're fired, you lazy shit.

[happyhooker]

lucky kunts

Yup. In fact my work just got a lot harder because people are in their houses all the time. If I have to explain one more time exactly what I'm doing to this bastard whose masculinity seems to be threatened by the fact that his wife got me in build these cupboards might stick a ha.mer in his face.

Yea, mate, I'm sure you could have done this if you had the time, now piss off and let me work.

[eldanielfire]

The end of traditional office hour? I doubt it. Sure some people prefer working from home at their own leisure. We are all different. But the COVID-19 lockdowns have certainly shown that lots of people need and want the social interaction that work provides.

Having most of your staff on work at the same time is good for business dealings, meetings and the fact people interact and understand each other better in person.

[Flyin Ryan]

This is showing up in other ways. New York City apartment vacancy rates have increased as a lot of professionals are looking to move out of the city. This has always been somewhat present but it hss accelerated the past 4 months. Work at home becomes a thing, you can work at home anywhere, move out of city where your money goes further. Combined with some businesses not paying rent, NYC real estate must be looking at a crash.

[eldanielfire]

lucky kunts

Yup. In fact my work just got a lot harder because people are in their houses all the time. If I have to explain one more time exactly what I'm doing to this bastard whose masculinity seems to be threatened by the fact that his wife got me in build these cupboards might stick a ha.mer in his face.

Yea, mate, I'm sure you could have done this if you had the time, now piss off and let me work.

You can't help being a sexy mutha fucker!

[Insane_Homer]

5 days worked at home, in the office for the rest of it.

It was weird and quiet for April but much more preferred to working from home. The only bonus from working at home is not doing the wasted travel time and South West f**king Trains. £4k a year to be saved if that could be avoided daily.

I'd need a proper office setup do it properly. working from a laptop at the kitchen counter is a bit meh... I'd also have to devise some sort of timer/lock for the fridge door.

[Mr Mike]

lucky kunts

Yup. In fact my work just got a lot harder because people are in their houses all the time. If I have to explain one more time exactly what I'm doing to this bastard whose masculinity seems to be threatened by the fact that his wife got me in build these cupboards might stick a ha.mer in his face.

Yea, mate, I'm sure you could have done this if you had the time, now piss off and let me work.

It’s a bizarre reaction. One of the fundamental economic drivers of getting well paid professional jobs is to be able to pay others to do the stuff you don’t want to do. An hour of your own time is relatively more valuable being used to either produce more wealth, or for leisure, than the expenditure used to pay a manual worker.

Give them an economics book to put in the cupboard.

[danny_fitz]

My company did a survey a few weeks back asking how people would feel returning to the office. Overwhelming the response was 'no thanks'. So with that in mind the powers to be have decided to push ahead with an August return to an office that has no catering facilities, reduced capacity due to spacing of desks and meeting rooms that can't fit more than a handful of people in while wearing masks. If we want to have a larger meeting we should sit our desks and join via skype. Stupid feckers.

[Blackrock Bullet]

This is showing up in other ways. New York City apartment vacancy rates have increased as a lot of professionals are looking to move out of the city. This has always been somewhat present but it hss accelerated the past 4 months. Work at home becomes a thing, you can work at home anywhere, move out of city where your money goes further. Combined with some businesses not paying rent, NYC real estate must be looking at a crash.

We don't know where this will settle though. If employees and college students are told they can work from home indefinitely until January, many will take that up as an option simply for the savings. This though may attract people in who would like to live in the city but currently can't afford it. A longer term reorientation of the city may be underway with a % of office space now given over to residential as even if someone is WFH on their Manhatten apartment, they are freeing up office space.

I see only benefits from that for the environment, people's lifestyles and productivity.

There are lots of issues to work through though of course, land prices and real estate may be in for the same near term fall.

Lots of people want to live in cities though, cities are about more than just jobs.

[Blackrock Bullet]

There are a couple of issues that probably havent been properly thought through in the long term to working from home for the bulk of the organisation.

The first is how do you develop graduates? Graduates need experienced people around them to bounce ideas off and be led. They ask a million questions, and fair enough, its how you learn. I would suggest that people with less than say 2 years experience need to be full time in the office and seniors should be there a minimum 2 to 3 days a week.

THe second is how do you maintain a connected team if you arent face to face. You can do it to some extent over Teams or Zoom, but its not the same. Again it needs a program for when people are in the office - so I dont necessarily agree with your position that we should get to choose the time. We can to some extent but there needs to be strategy behind it.

Having said that it will happen. People will be down to 2 days a week in the office. The savings made on commercial real estate will be intense.

It is also very difficult to advance in your career working remotely. I don't think the remote CEO is going to become a thing.

Further, it sounds great being able to live in rural areas and work, but that only works so long as you have employment. As the labour market starts to move now after seizing up, people will realise that proximity to lots of jobs is still important.

I'm of the view that we will do well to get a 25% release from this in terms of reduction in day to day activity in cities. You will have 5%-10% who will look to go remote near 100% of the time - this makes total sense to some people, if you want to be effectively be a contractor having kids etc. this opens it up more. Around 30% of the workforce will need to keep the same employment patters, they will either be essential on site or younger ones as you mention. The other 60%/65% will have freedom to do 2/3 or 3/2 days, releasing up capacity.

(the worry is though that we may see mass long term layoffs of certain people who are not actually essential, discovered only through remote).

Overall it's a great opportunity for urban planners. For the first time since war time (in European cities) or fires (like Chicago), there is some breathing space for urban planners to make some big changes. Taking back more streets from cars, improving public transport and increasing the number of people living day to day is a must to keep cities vibrant in the short term - all of this can have a multiplier benefit on the 20/25% fall off in daily office commuters on the environment. Things will still grow though, so that 20%/25% will quickly grow back, you therefore need to take this chance to future proof your infrastructure.

[Saint]

There's a lot of thought going into this type of thing, and best practise is only now beginning to emerge.

One of many things people need to realise is that Covid lockdown WFH had very little to do with the "normal" WFH experience. Especially at the start there were many more distractions, obvious concerns about Covid, concerns about the length of lockdown etc that simply don't form part of the more usual experience.

One of the most obvious aspects of WFH though is that managers actually have to do their jobs - which should have always included monitoring the mental health and wellbeing of their teams. All too often that's not been the case, and it has become very apparentwhich managers actually are good and which have been piss poor.

For onboarding new staff, and "first job" individuals in particular, it can be done - but again, requires a very deliberate and thought through onboarding and continual training/sheep dipping programme, rather than just relying on the natural office osmosis. Our company has onboarded approx 80 graduates over the last 3 months, which is pretty much to our recruitment plan. Probably the bigger challenge is that if you;re under 25, and possibly older, you actually don;t have the space at home to effectively WFH - aprticulalry if you're sharing a house with people of similar ages.

[happyhooker]

lucky kunts

Yup. In fact my work just got a lot harder because people are in their houses all the time. If I have to explain one more time exactly what I'm doing to this bastard whose masculinity seems to be threatened by the fact that his wife got me in build these cupboards might stick a ha.mer in his face.

Yea, mate, I'm sure you could have done this if you had the time, now piss off and let me work.

It’s a bizarre reaction. One of the fundamental economic drivers of getting well paid professional jobs is to be able to pay others to do the stuff you don’t want to do. An hour of your own time is relatively more valuable being used to either produce more wealth, or for leisure, than the expenditure used to pay a manual worker.

Give them an economics book to put in the cupboard.

Are you sure I can't hit him with a hammer. It'd be far more satisfying.

[Flyin Ryan]

This is showing up in other ways. New York City apartment vacancy rates have increased as a lot of professionals are looking to move out of the city. This has always been somewhat present but it hss accelerated the past 4 months. Work at home becomes a thing, you can work at home anywhere, move out of city where your money goes further. Combined with some businesses not paying rent, NYC real estate must be looking at a crash.

We don't know where this will settle though. If employees and college students are told they can work from home indefinitely until January, many will take that up as an option simply for the savings.

That all has economic effects though. College towns for example rely on the students being there for their economic wellbeing. Also some students have filed suits against universities on the grounds of their tuition covers more than just classes if they are doing online education.

This though may attract people in who would like to live in the city but currently can't afford it. A longer term reorientation of the city may be underway with a % of office space now given over to residential as even if someone is WFH on their Manhatten apartment, they are freeing up office space.

You can't just snap your fingers and do it. For starters it would require zoning changes most likely. Also the vacancy rate now is the highest it's been in some time. So for building owners, they're slashing rents at the same time businesses aren't paying rent. So mortgage payments now must be...

I see only benefits from that for the environment, people's lifestyles and productivity.

Sure, but this all has effects. (I question productivity point.)

There are lots of issues to work through though of course, land prices and real estate may be in for the same near term fall.

Lots of people want to live in cities though, cities are about more than just jobs.

If you don't have a job, how are you going to pay to live there? All the entertainment and service jobs in New York are there because they are serving a well-to-do professional class. If a percentage of the well-to-do professional class leaves and takes that money with them, than the entertainment and service jobs must likewise decline.

Meanwhile New York State has incredibly depopulated Upstate to where after this upcoming census they are projected to lose 2 of their seats in Congress. Now that population decline will to a minor extent start hitting the city. For representation purposes, we're past the census but it's going to hit them in the checkbook immediately.

[Mr Mike]

lucky kunts

Yup. In fact my work just got a lot harder because people are in their houses all the time. If I have to explain one more time exactly what I'm doing to this bastard whose masculinity seems to be threatened by the fact that his wife got me in build these cupboards might stick a ha.mer in his face.

Yea, mate, I'm sure you could have done this if you had the time, now piss off and let me work.

It’s a bizarre reaction. One of the fundamental economic drivers of getting well paid professional jobs is to be able to pay others to do the stuff you don’t want to do. An hour of your own time is relatively more valuable being used to either produce more wealth, or for leisure, than the expenditure used to pay a manual worker.

Give them an economics book to put in the cupboard.

Are you sure I can't hit him with a hammer. It'd be far more satisfying.

You should be safe, sounds like he can’t use one to hit back.

Would a nail gun be more fun?

[sewa]

The end of traditional office hour? I doubt it. Sure some people prefer working from home at their own leisure. We are all different. But the COVID-19 lockdowns have certainly shown that lots of people need and want the social interaction that work provides.

Having most of your staff on work at the same time is good for business dealings, meetings and the fact people interact and understand each other better in person.

I doubt a lifetime of working with you would help me understand you

[LandOTurk]

There are a couple of issues that probably havent been properly thought through in the long term to working from home for the bulk of the organisation.

The first is how do you develop graduates? Graduates need experienced people around them to bounce ideas off and be led. They ask a million questions, and fair enough, its how you learn. I would suggest that people with less than say 2 years experience need to be full time in the office and seniors should be there a minimum 2 to 3 days a week.

THe second is how do you maintain a connected team if you arent face to face. You can do it to some extent over Teams or Zoom, but its not the same. Again it needs a program for when people are in the office - so I dont necessarily agree with your position that we should get to choose the time. We can to some extent but there needs to be strategy behind it.

Having said that it will happen. People will be down to 2 days a week in the office. The savings made on commercial real estate will be intense.

All very good points Farva.

On allowing staff to choose their hours, maybe the right strategy is one where businesses begin to employ an open door office policy.. maybe completely liberating your staff of the expectation to be present in an office, separates the men from the boys where actual individual interest in developing in ones role and within businesses is concerned..

Re your second point, I was reading about a Marketing company in the UK who have stopped the lease on their building as productivity was higher, morale better etc. To keep a community, they are renting a hotel room for every other Friday, so they are all together.

[iarmhiman]

We've been told we're back in October for only two days a week.

WFH is the way it's going to be permanently with the option of a day or two in the office per week.

[Blackrock Bullet]

This is showing up in other ways. New York City apartment vacancy rates have increased as a lot of professionals are looking to move out of the city. This has always been somewhat present but it hss accelerated the past 4 months. Work at home becomes a thing, you can work at home anywhere, move out of city where your money goes further. Combined with some businesses not paying rent, NYC real estate must be looking at a crash.

We don't know where this will settle though. If employees and college students are told they can work from home indefinitely until January, many will take that up as an option simply for the savings.

That all has economic effects though. College towns for example rely on the students being there for their economic wellbeing. Also some students have filed suits against universities on the grounds of their tuition covers more than just classes if they are doing online education.

This though may attract people in who would like to live in the city but currently can't afford it. A longer term reorientation of the city may be underway with a % of office space now given over to residential as even if someone is WFH on their Manhatten apartment, they are freeing up office space.

You can't just snap your fingers and do it. For starters it would require zoning changes most likely. Also the vacancy rate now is the highest it's been in some time. So for building owners, they're slashing rents at the same time businesses aren't paying rent. So mortgage payments now must be...

I see only benefits from that for the environment, people's lifestyles and productivity.

Sure, but this all has effects. (I question productivity point.)

There are lots of issues to work through though of course, land prices and real estate may be in for the same near term fall.

Lots of people want to live in cities though, cities are about more than just jobs.

If you don't have a job, how are you going to pay to live there? All the entertainment and service jobs in New York are there because they are serving a well-to-do professional class. If a percentage of the well-to-do professional class leaves and takes that money with them, than the entertainment and service jobs must likewise decline.

Meanwhile New York State has incredibly depopulated Upstate to where after this upcoming census they are projected to lose 2 of their seats in Congress. Now that population decline will to a minor extent start hitting the city. For representation purposes, we're past the census but it's going to hit them in the checkbook immediately.

First two sub quotes are moot, as below I absolutely see a real estate crisis in the short to medium term. I fully see these impacts.

I do not see this being a longer term issue though. Cities will reinvet themselves.

[Catman]

Eventually the shareholders will realise none of you twats are actually necessary.

[iarmhiman]

Eventually the shareholders will realise none of you twats are actually necessary.

Until there is a major incident and they're in the papers. Then they need us

[happyhooker]

lucky kunts

Yup. In fact my work just got a lot harder because people are in their houses all the time. If I have to explain one more time exactly what I'm doing to this bastard whose masculinity seems to be threatened by the fact that his wife got me in build these cupboards might stick a ha.mer in his face.

Yea, mate, I'm sure you could have done this if you had the time, now piss off and let me work.

It’s a bizarre reaction. One of the fundamental economic drivers of getting well paid professional jobs is to be able to pay others to do the stuff you don’t want to do. An hour of your own time is relatively more valuable being used to either produce more wealth, or for leisure, than the expenditure used to pay a manual worker.

Give them an economics book to put in the cupboard.

Are you sure I can't hit him with a hammer. It'd be far more satisfying.

You should be safe, sounds like he can’t use one to hit back.

Would a nail gun be more fun?

Maybe. But I only had the finishing nailer with me which would be more like acupuncture. I'll take the framing nailer in tomorrow.

Thanks.

[mdaclarke]

2/3 or 3/2 is best, in my opinion. Enough time to socialise with those other than your family and close friends, enough time being more free to do what you wish in your schedule.

What's the point of humanity's progress if not to free us from laborious and boring tasks?

I think it will end up being 3/2 in our office, 3 at work, 2 at home.

[New guy]

5 days worked at home, in the office for the rest of it.

It was weird and quiet for April but much more preferred to working from home. The only bonus from working at home is not doing the wasted travel time and South West f**king Trains. £4k a year to be saved if that could be avoided daily.

I'd need a proper office setup do it properly. working from a laptop at the kitchen counter is a bit meh... I'd also have to devise some sort of timer/lock for the fridge door.

This is my issue, I'm not middle class enough to have a study so I either have to work in the kitchen or on my wife's dressing table.

[Lemoentjie]

2/3 or 3/2 is best, in my opinion. Enough time to socialise with those other than your family and close friends, enough time being more free to do what you wish in your schedule.

What's the point of humanity's progress if not to free us from laborious and boring tasks?

I think it will end up being 3/2 in our office, 3 at work, 2 at home.

And finally it will result in more meritocracy. I have WFH for quite a long time now, but when I worked in an office, I think I could have done all the work I was supposed to do in 5 days, in 2 days of focused work. The problem is needing to 'be on call' for clients, colleagues, etc. Otherwise anyone productive could just do their work as quickly as possible, and have a 4 or 5 day weekend.

[Enzedder]

I have been into the office twice since our lockdown finished; once for a meeting and once to meet with a private client (I do financial accounts and tax returns for small businesses on the side and didn't want to go to her place and vice versa).

I have three screens and one is always on PR or NPR, one will be on whatever I am searching (personal or work) and one will be open on a clients file if I have anything on the go. That's about how my work day is spread as well. My colleagues are much then same and the company is considering closing down the office as an unnecessary expense.

Coffee intake is high.

[Fat Old Git]

I'm back in the office full time now, and the company seems to have lost it's appetite for allowing staff to work from home.

I've even been on a plane, and have several more trips booked, although we have restricted the amount of travel we are doing where possible.

My dog misses what he remembers as the great happy time of me working from home during lock down. And I miss the peace and quiet where you were able to focus and could get a 4 hour job done in an hour and an half because you weren't dealing with constant interruptions.

[Jerome Manning]

lots of people need and want the social interaction that work provides.

I certainly do. Deep friendships take 6 months plus to develop and you don't even know it's happening when it's happening. Work is great for providing that. Meeting your cousin's mate at a party to talk about the weather and English football doesn't develop that.

the fact people interact and understand each other better in person.

There is some sort of positive sum game theory implication to this. You work harder and do more for someone that you get on well with. You both ending up benefiting. If it's just Ranjit from IT, communicating via email from home, who gives a shit?

[Saint]

I'm back in the office full time now, and the company seems to have lost it's appetite for allowing staff to work from home.

I've even been on a plane, and have several more trips booked, although we have restricted the amount of travel we are doing where possible.

My dog misses what he remembers as the great happy time of me working from home during lock down. And I miss the peace and quiet where you were able to focus and could get a 4 hour job done in an hour and an half because you weren't dealing with constant interruptions.

Wow. We're looking at a voluntary reopening around September; I may have a trip to Canada coming up but that would be because I appear to be the only person in the company with a valid Canadian ETA, and it will be entirely my choice if that ultimately happens.

A mandatory return to the office won't be till the new year at the earliest, and even then it will be 1 day a week - at best case

[DOB]

5 days worked at home, in the office for the rest of it.

It was weird and quiet for April but much more preferred to working from home. The only bonus from working at home is not doing the wasted travel time and South West f**king Trains. £4k a year to be saved if that could be avoided daily.

I'd need a proper office setup do it properly. working from a laptop at the kitchen counter is a bit meh... I'd also have to devise some sort of timer/lock for the fridge door.

This is my issue, I'm not middle class enough to have a study so I either have to work in the kitchen or on my wife's dressing table.

I've been on the kitchen table since March. It's awful.

[Saint]

5 days worked at home, in the office for the rest of it.

It was weird and quiet for April but much more preferred to working from home. The only bonus from working at home is not doing the wasted travel time and South West f**king Trains. £4k a year to be saved if that could be avoided daily.

I'd need a proper office setup do it properly. working from a laptop at the kitchen counter is a bit meh... I'd also have to devise some sort of timer/lock for the fridge door.

This is my issue, I'm not middle class enough to have a study so I either have to work in the kitchen or on my wife's dressing table.

I've been on the kitchen table since March. It's awful.

Mrs Saint is working from the kitchen table when not seeing patients. Much prefers it to the office.